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Is The Will Of Man Free

Does the Bible teach that the will of man is free? Many seem to belief that man's will is free. Show passages where God tells us that the will of man is free. I am talking about the will of man.

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 ---Mark_V. on 11/19/12
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Jack B, you do alot of talking and never showing one scripture to proof what you say is true. Then you say,

"One thing youll notice is they frequently use verses of scripture that deny their own beliefs.... but they are too blind to see that."

You seem to believe that, you seem to see something others cannot see, so why don't you show which passages we use that denies our own beliefs? I bet you cannot. Easy to just talk, but very hard to proof what you talk about to others concerning those who give the glory to God for their salvation. We give you the Word of God, and yet, to this day, you have not shown one passage where God said the will of man was free. Not one.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/12


Jesus says, "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

So, Jesus calls to "all", with this hope for "all", then, I would say. But men are free from Jesus, if they need to come to Him! And we need to "learn" from Jesus > learn how to love. People, then, are free because of not knowing how to love. Being independent is not good freedom. Our Father has us in family sharing and depending on each other in His love and leading.
---willie_c: on 11/24/12


Jesus said he no longer called his disciples slaves, but rather friends. John 15:15. Thank you, Jesus.
---love.wins on 11/24/12


LOGICALLY, none of the elect can perish, according to non-free-willers. Therefore, this verse can only make sense if ALL means those that have yet to become God's children.
---Marc on 11/23/12

Very good, Marc.
This is something that Ive notice all Hyper-Calvinists ignore.

One thing youll notice is they frequently use verses of scripture that deny their own beliefs.... but they are too blind to see that.
---JackB on 11/24/12


Warwick, from the time I've known you, you fight for the Truth of Scripture, you would not do that if you did not have any spiritual understanding, so I was surprise you would ask the question you did to Christan concerning (Matt. 11:28). "Was this invitation or command"
You should know who answers Jesus invitation? Not the lost, for no one understands, no one seeks of God (Rom. 3:10-12). So who does answer? Those who are His children already. Who hears the voice of Christ? His sheep hear His voice. The verse before says, (Matt. 11:27, ".... Nor does anyone know the Father accept the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him"
---Mark_V. on 11/24/12




Love wins, you said,

"
If God is free, and we are doing His will, we are free indeed!"


God is free, and we are doing His will because:
"But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life" (Rom. 6:22). We are free like God from sin, but we are slaves to God, not free.

Jack B, believers do not become believers, believers commit their lives to Christ by faith. No one without faith commits their lives to Christ. Only those who believe in His name,
"who were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of the man, but of God" (John 1:13).
---Mark_V. on 11/24/12


Marc, i answered (2 Peter 3:9). The 'any' 'us' refers to believers the "elect." some have not been born again yet. Read (v 3:5) and know, that many already perished in the flood. God is not suffering for them to not perish. His patience is not so He can save all, but so that He can saved His own. He cannot be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destroy the world and the ungodly (v. 3:7) says:
" But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
The ungodly are now preserved by the Word. Reserved for fire, who? The ungodly. How can God be longsuffering for them? Read the Word.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/12


Ive never seen anyone considered themselves a "believer" before they were a believer.....
---JackB on 11/23/12


If God is free, and we are doing His will, we are free indeed!
---love.wins on 11/23/12


Christian, I asked you before :Jesus said "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28. Was this invitation or command?

You must now know that you have accused Marc of being a liar when he has not lied. This is the sin of false witness. Have you researched the meaning of 'lie'?. Do you have the integrity to admit you are in error?

We cannot go forward until the above matters are addressed.

While you are at it please tell me how John 6:44-65 supports your case that man has no free will to accept or refuse God's offer of salvation.
---Warwick on 11/23/12




Christian wrote: "(believers) not willing that "any" (the elect, those who will believe) but that all should come to repentance".

Tendentiously, you omitted ANY "should perish" and inserted "believers" and "Elect". Consequently, you've altered God's Word to support your soteriology. A son of Calvin. Shame!

LOGICALLY, none of the elect can perish, according to non-free-willers. Therefore, this verse can only make sense if ALL means those that have yet to become God's children. Think about it before rushing to call people liars merely because they don't agree with you.
---Marc on 11/23/12


"Your understanding is, I believe, incorrect because you are saying God compells people to follow Him." Warwick

You keep accusing me of saying "compels". Where in my replies or blogs do I use the word "compel"? That came from you, not me.

Your lack of understanding John 6:44,65 is your stumbling block and also for those who love their free-will theology, which in the Scripture does not even preach. You free-willers pluck one verse and then turn it into something perverted like, God has given man a "free-will".

Stop talking and start showing where in the Scriptures does it say so explicitly as compared to what John 6:44,65 explicitly contradicts your free-will.
---christan on 11/23/12


Mark Eaton, you use John 6:28,29 to literally shoot yourself in your heart. You don't even know the content of those verses you quoted and what Christ was declaring.

In verses 26,27, Christ was speaking about eternal life that's only found in Him. Those who asked the question in verse 28 is similar to the rich young man's question to Christ in Mathew 19:16. Like you, they were thinking that they can gain eternal life by their own works.

But Christ simply declared, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Meaning, believing in His Son is 100% God's work (special grace) and nothing to do with your own will, which by the way is dead in sins and trespasses.
---christan on 11/23/12


This entire debate reminds me of three children all bickering over daddy loves the best.

The first: just cuz

The second: cuz I am the firstborn

The third... cuz I do everything they ask
---JackB on 11/23/12


marc, I don't call you a liar but the Word of God does that when you speak contrary to what is explicitly declared in the Word.

I question your understanding simply because I know by the testimony of the Word, multitudes are already in Hades waiting to be cast into the Lake of Fire. By quoting 2 Peter 3:9, I take it that you are suggesting that God is "desperately" trying to save "ALL" but because of their "free-will", some have "chosen" to reject Him. And that it's beyond Him to save those who have rejected Him. Is that where you're going?

Why don't you be more specific about what you're trying to imply when quoting 2 Peter 3:9? I'm "ALL" ears.
---christan on 11/23/12


christan * Where in Acts 16:29-31 explicitly does it say "exercise your free-will to believe",

Let's try again:

1)"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved "v 31

2) "he was filled with joy because he had come to believe " v34


christan * "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65


Again who are they that the Father draws and are given:


"Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me" (JHN 6:45)
---Ruben on 11/23/12


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"Paul reasures him, "... be saved from torture and execution." "
trey on 11/23/12

Paul and Silas spoke "the word of the Lord" to the keeper of the prison and to all that were in his household, and
v.33_34, "he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
Why speak "the word of the Lord"? That is the way it is, see John 17:20, Matthew 28:18_20, Romans 10:12_15.
God always sends somebody with his word, with his works, and people believe on either count, John 14:11.
---Nana on 11/23/12


Mark_Eaton, sorry to be slow to respond to your questions from 11/20/12.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith (We both agree so far)and that not of yourselves (did you catch that?):it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace is the gift of God and faith is the gift of God. Our belief in God is the work of God. - John 6:29.

The scriptures teach that all those that have faith have salvation. Faith is an evidence of salvation not the cause of salvation.

1 John 5:1 Whosever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
It does not say Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ will be born of God.
---trey on 11/23/12


Marc, you are right, the disciple made it clear alright concerning (2 Peter 3:9) that he was speaking concerning the "elect," the "us" the "believers," the "children of God" "the brethren" "the beloved." when he said,

"But, beloved, (meaning the brethren) do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, (the promise is only for believers) as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward "us," (believers) not willing that "any" (the elect, those who will believe) but that all should come to repentance"
---Mark_V. on 11/23/12


Mark_Eaton and Nana,
Acts 16:25-31 Paul and Silas have been thrown into prison. At midnight there is an earthquake,(27) the keeper of the prision is about to kill himself. Paul stops him. The keeper asks, "what must I do to be saved?" in other words, "The Romans are going to kill me and my family for what has happened. What must I do to save myself and my faimily?" Paul reasures him, "believe on Jesus and you and your family shall be saved from torture and execution."

The keeper would have killed himself to save his family. By Roman law he was accountable for the prisoners. If he failed the Romans would have tortured and killed his family as he watched and then killed him.
---trey on 11/23/12


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Mark_E and Nana
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The key word is salvation which means "delivered or deliverance". In this case Paul is speaking of a deliverance from following the law to following Christ. He is speaking of the Jews who were still following after the law and his desire that they might be delivered from the law unto grace.

The scriptures teach that we have faith/believe/seek after God because God draws us unto him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
---trey on 11/23/12


Christian, I don't accuse you of calling Marc a liar, as you did call him a liar. My comments were therefore not accusation, but statement of known fact.

Your understanding of the meaning of words is poor. Look up 'lie' in the dictionary and you will see it is defined as the act of knowingly promoting untruth. Marc has not lied as he believes what he says is true. Therefore you have committed the sin of bearing false witness.

Your understanding is, I believe, incorrect because you are saying God compells people to follow Him. John 3:16 shows your error as it says that God gave His only begotten son "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. There is no compulsion in belief.
---Warwick on 11/23/12


Christan, displaying his most uncharitable soteriology, a reflection of his own uncharitable character, prefers to call people liars when they disagree with him. Well done.

As the disciple made quite clear, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."
---marc on 11/23/12


will always run into the brick wall of John 6:44,65. Try reconciling your "free-will" with what Christ declared. You can't!
---christan on 11/21/12

Yet, you are omitting the two verses in John 6 that are the answers from Jesus to the question the crowd posed of him. The question of "what must WE do to work the works of God"?

John 6:29 "...This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"

and later, Jesus circles back around to say this:

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/23/12


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Brother MarkV, we are communicating with people who will say anything to deflect their complete unbelief of how the sinner receives salvation, even though it's explicitly taught by Christ, expounded by the apostles in the epistles.

---christan on 11/22/12

Yes and explicitly taught by Paul...

We are saved by Jesus death and resurrection life.

If you believe in your heart God raised Jesus from teh dead, thou shall be saved.

And the Apostles with over 500 were WITNESSES to this fact, and proclaimed this FACT. you may want to re-read ACTS.

REPENT AND BELIEVE is the Gospel preached from then until this day!

---kathr4453 on 11/23/12


Warwick, you accuse me of calling Marc a liar and bearing false witness? The Word of God accuses him and it completely contradicts his understanding. The same is applied to you, for you say:

"You would have us believe this says God compells people, even the unwilling to follow Him. Not so. God provides, we choose. "

This is prove you are a liar too. Christ explicitly declared, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." What is there for the sinner to "choose" if God has already chosen him? You make no sense! And when God chooses, He will provide the way by His gift of faith that the sinner will indeed go to His Son.
---christan on 11/22/12


"Matthew 11:28. Was this invitation or command?" Warwick

One verse, and you turn it into an "invitation"? I guess that's what "free-willers" are good at doing, twisting and turning God's words. Have you tried reading the verse before 28 and then put it into context? I'm sure not. But here's what the verse before says:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

That means, those who go to Christ is because of verse 27, which also confirms John 6:44,65.

It's not an invitation! TRY AGAIN.
---christan on 11/22/12


Brother MarkV, we are communicating with people who will say anything to deflect their complete unbelief of how the sinner receives salvation, even though it's explicitly taught by Christ, expounded by the apostles in the epistles.

It's as clear as daylight written in the Scriptures that there's no need to even interpret any of those verses we have been showing them with regards to believing in Christ. Which the cause is because the Father has drawn the sinner to His Son, nothing to do with their free-will but God's free-will.

So, their next best thing is to blame theologians rather than their unregenerated heart.
---christan on 11/22/12


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Christian, you falsely claimed Marc lied when in reality he simply holds a view opposed to yours. There is no lie as a lie is a falsehood knowingly told. You therefore have committed false witness.

Now you quote: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65 You would have us believe this says God compells people, even the unwilling to follow Him. Not so. God provides, we choose.

Jesus said "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28. Was this invitation or command?
---Warwick on 11/22/12


Peter, with respect to you and your answer, We are not talking about Luther, Calvin, Arminius, or anyone in history. My question was simple. Where in Scripture (the Bible) are we taught that the will of man is free? Every answer given, never mentions the will of man is free. We know that God is God. He is holy and righteous and everything He does is right. He is autonomus, a law unto Himself. His will is not subject to anything. His motives, and desires are always righteous. He is absolutely free to do what He so desires to do.
What I read here is that man is also autonomus. A law unto himself having to answer to no one. If free will belongs to man, it should be simple enough to show hundreds of passages.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/12


Peter,

I don't know about Luther but I know Calvin purposely changed Paul's intended meaning for 'understanding' in his exposition of Romans 1, thus supporting his warped theology.

Similarly others here have changed the meaning of 'draw' in John 6 by pulling it out of its CONTEXT. Jesus said the Father had drawn men by the Scriptures, hence Jesus' immediately quoting Isaiah 54:13. He goes on to reinforce this with "everyone who has heard and learned" i.e. from the Scriptures.
---Marc on 11/21/12


How about: Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/21/12


Romans 12 begins I beseech you therefore "BRETHREN" that those who are now saved must present themselves a living sacrifice that they may "KNOW" the Will of God as we contunue to "walk" by Faith in our lives using our GIFTS given us .

He's talking now in Romans 12 about our sanctification.

Faith leading to Justification again was addressed in Romans 3-4.
---kathr4453 on 11/21/12


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Ruben, JamesL, MarkEaton,

Where in Acts 16:29-31 explicitly does it say "exercise your free-will to believe", that's what you're implying. For if that was what it meant, you're calling Christ a liar because He EXPLICITLY declared,

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65

Your feeble attempts to wedgie your "free-will" to Acts 16:29-31 or any of Scripture will always run into the brick wall of John 6:44,65. Try reconciling your "free-will" with what Christ declared. You can't!
---christan on 11/21/12


Mark V, Mark Eaton, Ruben, James L, Christan: You are all arguing over an issue that the Church has bickered for centuries.

It is accepted that God starts it by drawing us to Him, but many disputes have come up on this (Martin Luther vs John Calvin bickered over it for a long time, for example).

You will not be able to sort out the little things of this in blogs of this size

If you are talking of Mark V's comment of the general will of man, that is even more complex. The only thing I can say is that God will fault us for what we do if we do not repent
---Peter on 11/21/12


If you have the ability to "believe", why do you even need to be "born of the Spirit"?
---christan on 11/21/12

You would do well to talk with James L. Your question, seems like double talk to me.

You and MarkV and all your Reformed Theology friends want me to understand that there is no "belief" in Salvation. That God made a decision about me before the foundation of the world and way back then I was born of the Spirit.

But I must say, the Scriptures contradict you. Nana and I have quoted many Scriptures that say to BELIEVE and then we will be born again. The Scriptures teach that belief or faith happens first and then the new birth.

However, you will not accept plain Scriptures.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/21/12


Christian* Know what's "IMPOSSIBLE"? It's true one has to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." BUT is it by your 'free-will"?

Yes, scripture is saying to 'Believe' and if you do "thou shall be saved"


Christian* For that's not what Acts 16:29-31 is teaching anyways. You assume.

No you assume!

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household"v 31

"immediately he and all his household were baptized"v33

"he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godhe and his whole household." v34
---Ruben on 11/21/12


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\\...I never said a man decides to believe.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


Yet, from the other day....


\\Unless I missed it, "whoever believes" says that we are to believe in Jesus for ourselves.

The verse does not say that God forces this decision upon us or that God makes the decision for us.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12


Re: Romans 10:9
In this context, saved does not mean conversion. This "saved" is the same as in Matt 10:22, 32-33. Endure to be "saved". Ref 2Tim 2:12 if we endure we will reign with Him

Saved in Romans 10 is reigning with Christ, not conversion

Compare Rom 10, Matt 10, 2Tim 2, Heb 2:9-10, Rom 8:17
---James_L on 11/21/12


"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:44,65

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40,41
---christan on 11/21/12


\\The Bible says God draws us, God gives us faith to believe, ------christan on 11/21/12

christan, your last post has no scripture to back up your statements.

Please provide 2-3 verses where "God gives you faith to believe".\\

How about: Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/21/12


The Bible says God draws us, God gives us faith to believe, ------christan on 11/21/12

christan, your last post has no scripture to back up your statements.

Please provide 2-3 verses where "God gives you faith to believe". Or better yet, where God gives only a select few faith to believe leading to Justification.

Why the warning then in Hebrews..."hearden not YOUR hearts as those in the wilderness..TODAY is the DAY of Salvation...
---kathr4453 on 11/21/12


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trey,

John6:26 "... Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled."
John6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,..."
John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
John 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Simply, man must believe God's messenger. Man must do the believing.
---Nana on 11/21/12


Mark Eaton, let me demonstrate hypocrisy and contradiction,

"The Bible says God draws us, God gives us faith to believe, makes the way of Salvation, planned from the foundation of the world, and knows beforehand if we will be born again. All this I gladly accept as fact."

So far so good, then in the following paragraph:

"However, in EVERY case we still must believe before we are born again. We must believe in the free gift of God provided through the death of Jesus. There is no born again before we believe."

If you have the ability to "believe", why do you even need to be "born of the Spirit"?

That's hypocrisy and contradiction, personified.
---christan on 11/21/12


Mark E, your questions I also had at one time. And you are right, that without faith their is no salvation. When God draws you to Himself, it is because you had been separated from God or else why would He have to draw you? Spiritual death is separation from God, He now makes you spiritually alive and gives you faith, because you were dead in trespasses and sin. While separated from God you had no faith. And before you make a commitment to Christ, you have to have faith as (Rom. 10:9,10) tells us only if you believe in your heart already. Unbelievers do not believe in their hearts, the reason they are called unbelievers.
"So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy" (Rom. 9:16).
---Mark_V. on 11/21/12


I am not assuming, you are. Acts 16:29_31 says what it says.

Go ahead, carry on building sand castles. (Matthew 7:26)
---Nana on 11/21/12


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My only contention with what you had written is that you say a man has to decide to believe.
---James_L on 11/20/12

Then we have no problem because if you review what I actually said, you will see that I never said a man decides to believe.

But I do have a problem with your statement about Rom 10:9 having nothing to do with conversion. What is conversion? Is that a code-word for salvation or being born again? The word conversion indicates to me a change of state from one state to another with the original object still intact. A metamorphosis. But this is Biblically incorrect. We are not "changed" we are born again, born anew, born from above. A totally new creation.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


"The only ones who will come to Christ are those who have been changed inwardly by the Spirit, born of God."
---Mark_V. on 11/20/12

The Bible says God draws us, God gives us faith to believe, makes the way of Salvation, planned from the foundation of the world, and knows beforehand if we will be born again. All this I gladly accept as fact.

However, in EVERY case we still must believe before we are born again. We must believe in the free gift of God provided through the death of Jesus. There is no born again before we believe.

Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"
---mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


"...would you accuse Paul and Silas too?" Nana

To prove your understanding of Acts 16:29-31 is erroneous, here's what Christ told His disciples,

"Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25,26

Know what's "IMPOSSIBLE"? It's true one has to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." BUT is it by your 'free-will"? For that's not what Acts 16:29-31 is teaching anyways. You assume. And Trey has kindly shown you verses that contradicts your understanding.

Are you accusing Christ of lying?
---christan on 11/20/12


Mark Eaton,
I'm a little bewildered by your reply to me.

On one hand, you say that we decide to believe, then you reference Romans 10:9 "confess" then say it's only belief.

Can you make up your mind so I can know to what issue I should respond?

My only contention with what you had written is that you say a man has to decide to believe.

But it is not humanly possible to decide to believe something.

That's like asking the ground to decide whether or not a seed can be planted in it.

Jesus used the parable of the sower for a reason. As the ground receives a seed, so a man receives the gospel of Christ.

As for Rom 10:9 it has absolutely nothing to do with conversion. NOTHING.
---James_L on 11/20/12


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Mark E, you said,

"Jesus says in both verses a form of "a man cometh to me". What does that mean to you? It says to me that we still need to come to God"

As we know concerning the lost,
" There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11).
"The only ones who will come to Christ are those who have been changed inwardly by the Spirit, born of God." They are the only ones that come to Christ, only ones who seek God, only one's who hear His voice. Because hearing comes by the Word of God.
When Jesus says "come to Me that you might have life" only those who hear Him will come. They need spiritual ears to hear the calling of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/12


What matters is our will? Or the will of God!It may just appear our will is free! Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. THY will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of HIM who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS own will:Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else, I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY counsel shall stand, and I will do ALL MY pleasure:
---J_Marc on 11/20/12


God acts first in the new birth and then we respond.
---trey on 11/20/12

I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

Your statement seems to contradict these Scriptures:

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

Acts 16:31 "They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Are you saying that God saves us first and then we believe in faith?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


Acts 16:29_31 "Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Chistan, would you accuse Paul and Silas too?
---Nana on 11/20/12


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unless you can convince me that these verses mean something besides what they clearly say, I will not believe what you stated.
---trey on 11/19/12

I don't have to convince you, the Scriptures are easy to understand.

Jesus says in both verses a form of "a man cometh to me". What does that mean to you? It says to me that we still need to come to God. We still make a decision about coming to God. God may draw me, and I may be given to Jesus, but I still need to come. I still need to take an action on my part.

I firmly believe that all who have ever lived are given the opportunity to come to God. I believe at some time or another God draws every person to Himself and He knows who will and who will not come.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


Dear Mark_Eaton, and Nana, please consider these verses:

John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is by the work of God that we believe.

Gal5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For us to bear fruit we must first have the tree. Without the working of the Holy Ghost we do not have faith.

God acts first in the new birth and then we respond. The wind bloweth where it listeth. The Spirit of God moves as he sees fit. He is the one that doeth his will (Dan 4:35). His word goes out and accomplishes whatever he desires (Isa 55:11).
---trey on 11/20/12


Your error is thinking that anyone has the capacity to decide to believe something.
---James_L on 11/19/12

How else will you receive eternal life? The Scriptures are clear:

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

We are to believe. I must have the capacity to believe if the Scriptures tell me to. Otherwise, all flesh would be lost. There is no other way. Please show it to me if there is a way to salvation other than to believe.

No, you want Salvation to be harder than it is.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/20/12


//"But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." 2 Corinthians 13:6//

Try another translation. This one is lacking in clarity. The context is "whether you are living in the faith," or not.
---Rod4Him on 11/20/12


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"We must believe on our own and in so doing, guarantee for ourselves eternal life." - Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12. "Unlike trey, I do "believe what you stated." - Nana 11/19/12

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead" 2 Corinthians 1:9

WOW! What a great difference between Paul's words of admonishment to that of Mark Eaton and Nana's words of death. Contrasting, like day and night! Precisely what Paul warn against trusting one-self for eternal life.

"But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." 2 Corinthians 13:6
---christan on 11/20/12


"The verse does not say that God forces this decision upon us or that God makes the decision for us. We must believe on our own and in so doing, guarantee for ourselves eternal life."
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12

Unlike trey, I do "believe what you stated."
Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 2:6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
---Nana on 11/19/12


\\The verse does not say that God forces this decision upon us or that God makes the decision for us.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12

Sounds good, but sounding good and being true are two different things.

Your error is thinking that anyone has the capacity to decide to believe something.

How about a little challenge?

Tomorrow I'd like you to "decide" to believe that the world is flat.

Then the next day "decide" to believe that humans have four arms

Then the next day "decide" do believe that elephants can fly by flapping their ears.

Can you let us know after thanksgiving how you're doing with your decisions?

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your cooperation
---James_L on 11/19/12


Everyone has a choice, and everyone who makes a choice is free as far as no one makes him make the choice. There is no gun to his head. He is free to make a choice. But is his "will" free? That's the question. Is the will of man free from any bias and just makes spantaneous choices? With no bias (free). For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. If people made a choice with no bias and it just happened, it just pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it, then it cannot be judged good or bad. When God evalutes our choices, He is concerned about our motives. The answers given do not indicate the will is free, only that man has a choice.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/12


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Yes, we make choices. And yes we reap so much more than those little seeds we sowed > "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

So, whatever we sow, we get back so much more than we put out. If we sow complaining and unforgiveness in anger and arguing, we get tangled and mangled in our harvest of weeds. If we sow in love, we get so much more than we deserve, with God. "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

So, choose to trust God to change us to become like Jesus in His love (c:
---willie_c: on 11/19/12


Hi Mark Eaton, I mean this with all humbleness. What you do not understand is that unless God sheds his love on you then you have no desire to choose him in the first place and if he does then you cannot resist.

John6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Mark, unless you can convince me that these verses mean something besides what they clearly say, I will not believe what you stated.
---trey on 11/19/12


The most quoted verse in the Bible says:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"

Unless I missed it, "whoever believes" says that we are to believe in Jesus for ourselves.

The verse does not say that God forces this decision upon us or that God makes the decision for us. We must believe on our own and in so doing, guarantee for ourselves eternal life.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/19/12


SIN IS the transgression of the law.

agree. but WHY did we break the law. The law is good the law is to help us. There is only one law, LOVE GOD. Because we love ourselves thus we want glory.
---Scott1 on 11/19/12


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" What is sin? Sin is the choice to put my glory above God's glory."?? 1st John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS the transgression of the law.
---J_Marc on 11/19/12


It appears that some love to wrangle "over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening."

When they should be "Avoid[ing] profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, and their talk will spread like gangrene."
---Rod4Him on 11/19/12


"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness." (Romans 6:20) So, humans in sin are slaves of sin, but free from God in His righteousness.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) So, a child of God is freed from sin, but now "joined to the Lord" so the person is "one spirit with Him." "And in union with Him, we have how He makes us in our character . . . 'free indeed' (John 8:36) in His love and His way of loving."

So, the question could be, how are you free?
---willie_c: on 11/19/12


Let me answer your question with a question. What is sin? Sin is the choice to put my glory above God's glory. This is what Eve said paraphased "I reject what God says for the gaining of knowledge by experiencing knowledge by eating the fruit." Gen CH 3. Cain being jealous (a will) of Able killed him. Gen CH. 4. Lamech boasted (pride) of killing a man Gen CH4 v 23,24. The Lord saw how great the wickedness of man Gen Ch6 v 5. Shall I continue. Humanity's will in no way limits the diety of God. He does know what we are going to do but in love allows us to follow our will. If man has no will and God made, forced these evil things to happen He is not good and I do not want to follow him.
---Scott1 on 11/19/12


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The scriptures teach:

Jer17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1Co2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What most do not understand is that man is wicked and totally depraved. If given the choice he will not choose God. Until the Spirit of God removes our cold and stoney heart and replaces it with a fealing heart we will not seek after God, but when we are drawn (dragged) by the Father unto the Son by his overpowering love we cannot help but respond positively.

We love him because he first loved us!!!
---trey on 11/19/12


Mark V

Free means without any boundaries. Would these boundaries include physical limitations?

In other words a man can purpose to fly, and then jump off a cliff to his demise

Was his will confined merely because his physical limitations prevented him from carrying out his intentions?

Tower of Babel, they had plans that God ruined. But they still purposed it. Was their will free?

Does will include ability to carry out? Or does will only include what we purpose, regardless of ability?

That has to be answered before we can determine whether man's will is anywhere close to free
---James_L on 11/19/12


Ex 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

Hb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Mt 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all, neither by heaven, for it is God's throne.

Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.

Other than Christ Jesus, who has been able to keep their promise? If no one, why not?
---Phil on 11/19/12


"Does the Bible teach that the will of man is free?" It may just appear our will is free! What matters is the will of God! Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. THY will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of HIM who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS own will:Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else, I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY counsel shall stand, and I will do ALL MY pleasure:
---J_Marc on 11/19/12


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Whosoever will, let him come.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/19/12


Great verses, grace-mercy.
---Rod4Him on 11/19/12


"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28

Does this testimony by Peter speak of those mentioned in the verses acted out of their "free-will" to crucify The Lord of Glory? Rather it confirms God's declaration,

"...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

It's all been purposed and predestined by God.

God's sovereign, man will be held accountable!
---christan on 11/19/12


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