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What Does Salvation Mean

Many here are obviously from very different church backgrounds and vary in ideas regarding what salvation actually means. Could those of you interested in doing so please say what SALVATION means to YOU. How do you know that YOU are saved? What is the main criteria?

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 ---andreea on 11/21/12
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"First, there isn't even one scripture that says it." JamesL

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

"...whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:14, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" Ephesians 2:1

Notice the similarity of what must happened first? I'm sure you can't.
---christan on 12/3/12


There you go guys, show the emnity that is still in your hearts, it only proofs my point. Blood boils over when told the truth that if it was not for God giving you a spiritual awakening, all of you would still be walking the same path as all those who are still lost.
Your battle is not with me, it is with God that you are battling. Instead of thanking God for what He did for you, why don't you guys pad yourselves in the back for allowing Christ into your hearts, while others were too dumb to do what you guys did. Maybe you guys were just smarter then the others who rejected Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/12


"Really ?? You should try reading what God has to say about that - Romans 4:5" JamesL

Do you even understand Romans 4:5? "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

I ask you, which comes first? Faith or believe? I'm sure you're going to tell me, believe first and then God will give you faith. Right? If not, please contradict me. If you can't, then your understanding has zero value to God's work of "justification by faith".

Don't quote verses you have no understanding of, especially "justification by faith".
---christan on 12/3/12


RichardC, your verse also can be seen in all of James. Faith without works is dead. Then we have the Gift of Faith as one of the Spiritual Fruits of the Spirit like Love Joy Peace Longsuffering FAITH against such there is no LAW. ( works of LAW ) Galatians 5:22-23

Then we have " The LAW of Faith,

Romans 3:26-28
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ther LAW of Faith and deeds of the Law are not one in the same.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/12


Chriatan, it's obvious Romans 1-2 is a total mystery to you, but not to many here. Romans 1:16-18 is what one calls the opening statement where it is addressed fully in the following chapters that would be chapters 1-2 and yes add 3.

But only a serious Bible student knows that. Those not so bright never read verses before and after, but are somehow in some autistic state of mind and can only recite one verse and become fixated on one verse.

That's why it's over your head too!
---kathr4453 on 12/3/12




Marc, children don't understand what a parable is. You have it twisted there somewhere. You said:

"MarkV, Even children understand the purpose of a parable. They're a picture of something greater and are used to help someone, not stop someone from seeing truth"

Did you not read what Jesus said correctly here let me write it down,

"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God" He was referring to the diciples,
"but unto the rest it is given in parables that 'seeing they may not see' and hearing they may not understand".
Do you get that? Only believers should understand the parables. The answer to the parable is at the end of the parable.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/12


//How do you know that YOU are saved? What is the main criteria?//
It's simple.
You either BELIEVE the gospel Paul preached or you don't.
1 Cor15: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 By which also ye are SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 12/3/12


MarkV,

Even children understand the purpose of a parable. They're a picture of something greater and are used to help someone, not stop someone from seeing truth. Jesus used them as a teaching aid.

As for your bizarre and cruel understanding of Jesus' use of Isaiah 6:9,10, apparently you didn't see a clear use of irony, another teachers' aid to raise students' (and children's) understanding. Note Jesus' elimination of your gnostic belief: "For judgement I've come into this world, THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT SEE MAY SEE." (John 9:39)
---Marc on 12/2/12


\\Is that how the "mystery" of the Holy Bible is understood, by studying?\\
---christan

eh, I'm pretty sure we were talking about the "mystery" of your doctrine, not the mystery of scripture. There is a big difference, you know


\\One MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT FIRST!\\
---christan

First, there isn't even one scripture that says it.

Second, if one is born again before he ever hears the gospel, why on earth would he need to be justified?

God first makes a man godly so that he can hear the message and then be justified?

Really ?? You should try reading what God has to say about that - Romans 4:5
---James_L on 12/2/12


Karthr 4453 - ON 12/1/12 - FAITH IS NOT A WORK ,and the law is not faith

1 Thessalonians 1:11 REMEMBERING without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR of Love,and patience of Hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

Also REFER - 2 Thessalonians 1:11

Roman 3,27 Where is the boasting then ? By what Law ? the law of Works? nay But by the Law of Faith.

[ On Confessing on what One Believes in }

Romans 3:31 DO we then make void the law though Faith ? God forbid, yea we establish the Law.
---RichardC on 12/2/12




Truly, truly amazing how some who cling on to "free-will" have the AUDACITY to even quote Romans 1:16. That's because the verse written is in conflict with their belief in the "free-will" of the sinner going to Christ by their own power.

The verse explicitly declares, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".

Simply put, when the sinner believes in Christ, it is because of God's power in His act of mercy and grace through regeneration. That is, if one bothers to read the Scriptures to know how God saves. But obviously, they don't. They continue to pluck one verse and turn it into a doctrine from hell. Good for them.
---christan on 12/2/12


Romans 1:16-18

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

This says it all. Totally over MarkV's head!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/12


//Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them." Mark 4:11 //

Doesn't say "Lest or Unless I turn them and they be forgiven."


---kathr4453 on 12/2/12


""mystery" is nothing but a copout for people who refuse to study" JamesL

Really? Is that how the "mystery" of the Holy Bible is understood, by studying?

"To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand, Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them." Mark 4:11 and

"It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

One MUST BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT FIRST!
---christan on 12/1/12


JamesL, I HAVE noticed he and many others do that very thing! That to me is a sign of a weak faith. If you must use another man's words and thoughts instead of the ones the Holy Spirit teaches you, it isn't YOUR faith you are living by, but the faith of a strange instead.
---JackB on 12/2/12


James L, I thank you for saying it was only your opinion, because that is all it was, your opinion. It hurts when someone tells you the Truth. It makes all that is inside just boil over. You try to control what you say, but it still spills out. Here is what is incredable, so call believers are the only ones who get boiled over when they hear from someone that it was God from beginning to end who saves those who are lost, unbelievers don't care about God. There is no mystery to know the Truth, we have it in the Word of God. From beginning to the end. Everyone is without excuse. No one can make himself spiritually alive, no matter how much free will he thinks he has. The lost remain dead in sin, unless God makes them alive together with Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/12


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char, appreciated your post. One thing jumped to mind.

From the time of Adam to Noah what men must have known and seen must have been awesome, until they seered their own hearts/conscience.( one is not automatically born with a seered conscience thru Adam's sin) Then the flood. Noah preached 125 years warning man to REPENT!

Then Noah to right before Jesus. All those scriptures telling how man AGAIN departed from God, YET instead of judgement again, God Sent His Son to bring man back int a rigth relationship with Him. "Learn of me/ follow me/ take my yoke upon you, believe in me, be saved from the wrath to come, repent and enter etc"....

Then judgement. God always provides a way of escape before Judgement.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/12


"It is God who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (free will), but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus "before times eternal" ((2 Tim. 1:9).
---Mark_V. on 12/1/12


Amazing how markv re-wrote this verse to twist the scripture to say what he wants it to say. That verse does not say

"not according to our works (free will),"

now does it? Faith again is not WORKS, but you want to twist it to say faith is a work.

Now if MarkV had the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit it would be impossible for him to LIE.

So just knowing the Holy Spirit is God is not enough.

Galatians 3:23
---kathr4453 on 12/2/12


Kathr, you are beginning to understand a little. You now say,

" It's Faith in the one who saves, that is Jesus Christ. And FAITH IS NOT A WORK, and the Law is not of faith. Scripture is clear on that."

Faith is not a work, it is a gift of God that comes through regeneration, it is a gift of the Spirit. The second you receive it, you become a believer.
"No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27)
"So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy" (Rom. 9:16)
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
---Mark_V. on 12/2/12


Some quote Romans 10:17 with no understanding of what it means. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

It is true that the sinner must first "hear" the preaching of God's Word. But what did Christ also say, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

In Acts 16:14,"And a certain woman named Lydia...heard us: WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED", ie unless the Lord open one's heart, you will never hear His Word and go to His Son. Also confirming John 6:44,65. Who's will was it to open Lydia's heart? Hers or God's?
---christan on 12/1/12


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\\MarkV notices the contradiction and believes God's will a "mystery".\\
---Marc on 12/1/12

"mystery" is nothing but a copout for people who refuse to study

Just copy and paste Mark V's posts into your search engine, and you will see that many times he does nothing more than plagiarize other web sites

So anything that he can't google an answer for is obviously a mystery.

Just my opinion, of course. It's entirey possible that he frequently thinks up the same exact words as someone else
---James_L on 12/1/12


Mark_V. on 12/1/12

OK now we know you believe WORK ='s free will.

According to you, FINALLY you have defined "works" as someone's "free will". So by Works/ that is "free will" no one is saved. I don't disagree with that, that works, that is works of the law, good works cannot save. It's Faith in the one who saves, that is Jesus Christ. And FAITH IS NOT A WORK, and the Law is not of faith. Scripture is clear on that.

So again what does that have to do with the Holy Spirit being God? Man, you are all over the place. Sometimes I feel as though I'm having a conversation with a schitzophranic.

Are we talking about the Deity the Holy Spirit? Faith or works, or free will?
---kathr4453 on 12/1/12


MarkV's soteriology: 1. God expects us to keep the highest morality i.e. "love your enemies, do good to who hate you" (Matt 5:44)
2. Yet, Mark V believes God lowers his own morality, sending his enemies to hell when he could save them.
3. MarkV notices the contradiction and believes God's will a "mystery". But Scripture says there is none: "the mystery kept secret since the world began but now made manifest" (Romans 16:25), "made known to us the mystery, that he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (Ephesians 1:9,10).
4. Or maybe God's ways are not our ways. See Jeremiah 5:21, 6:16, Prov 14:12, Isaiah 55:6-9.
5. Therefore Mark would have God act the way he asks us not to act.
---Marc on 12/1/12


"Ask, and it will be given to you, seek, and you will find. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent. If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN GIVE GOOD THINGS TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM. THEREFORE, WHATEVER YOU WANT MEN TO DO TO YOU, DO ALSO TO THEM."

MarkV teaches Jesus denies this about our Father's desires about the unsaved. Mark believes God wants to ignore them when he could save them. The true doctrine of demons. The only winner is Satan.
---Marc on 12/1/12


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God's grace is irresistable!

Joh10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jer31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Isa55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Joh6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---trey on 12/1/12


Lk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in (his name) among (all nations,) (beginning at Jerusalem.)

1 Jn 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love.

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--------

Hearing Comes by the Word of God----Ysha----Jesus/Immanuel God with us.....Anointed

Faith comes...

by Hearing...

Gods Word.

God testifying of His Word-in Spirit and in Truth:
Holy Spirit
---char on 12/1/12


MarkV: "iresistabale[sic] grace".

An oxymoron.
---Marc on 12/1/12


MarkV,

I asked you a question: Do you have children?

You didn't answer. I guess you don't.
---Marc on 12/1/12


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Kathr, first, if you were in the truth, you would know that the Holy Spirit is God. Who was with Adam? God. Second of all, we are not told anywhere if Adam was saved or not. We can assume he was. Concerning election, very little was known at that time concerning anything. The gospel begin in Genisees 3:15) but was not totally understood until much later. Even the prophets spoke of things to come, yet didn't know what they meant, only that they would happen. God's election does not have to be mention
"It is God who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (free will), but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus "before times eternal" ((2 Tim. 1:9).
---Mark_V. on 12/1/12


Agree -Kathr and Nana

Hearing Comes by the Word of God
Ysha/Jesus/Immanuel: God with us

God is salvation:
Hebraic:
Moshiah/Messiah: to cause one to be rescued -causing one to be rescued- the one performing the action of rescuing- one causing another to be rescued -as savior

2 Sam 22:3
The God of my rock, in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour, thou savest me from violence.

Jn 14:6-7, Jn 3:16-18, Jn 3:16-18,Rom 10:17

Continued'
---char on 12/1/12


3rd posting:

Learn from/by/of---(I AM)

Immanuel: God With us
Word of God: Jesus Christ/Ysha annointed

Mat 11:28 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and

( learn of me), for (I am)

meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
God who is Love and forgives upon repentance

Lk 24:47,1 Jn 4:8

Shalom
---char on 12/1/12


'Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world...", James goes unto presenting a way out from enmity with God: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Back to Genesis, God was pleased with Abel and to Cain he just said, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door."

God's ABC's, Isaiah 1:16_20.
Basically God's word tells the man to get his feet planted that he be established. There was no majic pixie dust sprinkled on the people to enable them to "Make straight the way of the Lord" or to Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance.

I agree with kathr4453 on 11/30/12.
---Nana on 12/1/12


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There is no scripture or proof of scripture that Abel's heart was changed by the Holy Spirit FIRST so that he could obey.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/12
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

how would you discribe enmity, and what role does the spirit play, what role does enmityplay in our obedience to God?
---francis on 11/30/12


There is no scripture or proof of scripture that Abel's heart was changed by the Holy Spirit FIRST so that he could obey. And we know that the Gospel message began in Genesis. If election was stated in Genesis, where Gid said Abel I loved and Cain I hated, THEN these false teachers would have some kind of backing ontheir false doctrine. However no such doctrine of this sort is taught. Nor was it with Abraham.

Now God choosing Jacob over his brother Esau again does not even mention faith.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/12


All descendants of Adam resist the outward calling of the gospel unless their hearts have been change by the Spirit. So long as they remain in a fallen state, they will never accept the Truth who is Christ. They need to be made alive and given faith, that comes from God the Spirit in order to believe in the works of Christ on the Cross and His resurrection. Without that change of heart, no one will accept the Truth. No one period.
The iresistabale grace of God is that grace that brings to life those who are dead in sin, and the dead cannot resist that grace. Dead people do not talk, think, or can they answer. All they do is wake up when God calls them to wake up. This is a spiritual awakening.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/12


Hi Andrea, The scriptures teach two salvations. Salvation means deliverance. There is timely deliverance and there is eternal deliverance.

Example of timely salvation:
Ex14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.
Also see: Jos 6:25,Acts 2:40 Acts 16:31


Example of eternal salvation:
Ac4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
---trey on 11/30/12


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Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy, I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones
1stJohn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

---J_Marc on 11/30/12


I have never seen anyone here get mad and call names who believes JESUS SAVES.

Some here obviously have a very different understanding of "Jesus Saves". and use their own bad theology to provoke name calling and arguments.

Some call Grace ELECTION. WRONG!

The Bible calls GRACE
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense.

Jesus OBEYED the Father and humbled Himself becoming obedient unto death , even death of a cross. called teh finished works of Christ. It was FINISHED at the CROSS.

We today are saved by His FINISHED WORKS on the Cross, also called GRACE.

Galatians 2:20-21
---kathr4453 on 11/30/12


Marc, you can do better then to try to trash me when you cannot answer with Scripture. I asked the question, "why do people get angry and call you names when you tell them God saved them?" I was talking about people like you. You say,
"MarkV,... Do you realise that your theology/soteriology is indistinguishable from Islam's?"

No Marc, the fact is, your theology of man's works for salvation is the same as Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, RCC. If you do enough works, God will be please to let you in. Salvation is by Grace through faith. Not by any works of righteousness. Don't get angry, read the Bible. If you believe you are saved by your own free will, you better think again. No one is saved by their works.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/12


First of all there is no such thing as irresistable Grace.

Grace is the Cross, and Jesus dying for our sin. To be saved BY GRACE is to die with Christ and be raised up a New Creature

Galatians 2:20-21 explain GRACE perfectly.

Galatians 2:20-21 show perfectly GRACE IS NOT IRRESISTABLE, if those saved by it can fall from it!

You can no more use the term "Irresistable Law" than you can "Irresistable Grace"

---kathr4453 on 11/30/12


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Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

2 Timothy 3:8
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.


Here we have proved through scripture man can indeed RESIST the truth and Holy Spirit. The opposite of irresistable is resist!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/12


But Marc you believe that GOD could make them choose to be saved. Because you teach irresitable grace. Therefore they have no choice since you believe GOD made it impossible for them to choose.

But why does not GOD make everyone choose to believe in JESUS?
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/12


MarkV, your Calvinism has destroyed your understanding and, most importantly, your compassion. Do you realise that your theology/soteriology is indistinguishable from Islam's? If for a second you can get your mind out of the cult you're in, such a comment should concern you.

As my favourite scientist was heard to say, "Calvinism: the curse of Europe."

BTW, let me take a guess: You don't have children.
---Marc on 11/29/12


Marc, I never said man could not choose, they choose every second of the day. The reason they are held responsible. In a lost condition, man is unable to choose Christ because they have no faith. Make an attempt to think, would you choose a woman you hate for your wife? No. We choose what we like, and the lost don't like Christ. They are dead to Him, don't believe in Him, and don't believe His word. Is that not simple enough?
God, gets no pleasure in punishing the lost, but He has to do what's right for He is also Just. God said, if you do all those things you will have life. The people didn't do what God commanded, why? They though God was unfair. The lost telling God He is not fair. Sort of what you do.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/12


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MarkV,

Why are you incapable of honestly addressing a passage? That is not what I asked about Ezekiel 18. I understand, now, that you are so used to deceiving yourself because you believe that whatever you say is right that you believe you can discuss an entirely different matter and be still answering the question posed.

I don't know if you've come under the spell of some pretty dangerous preaching or you've led yourself away, but either way, you've been deceived into acting dishonestly.
---Marc on 11/28/12


Marc, I don't know why you don't understand ( Eze. 18). Let me help you. No one can be saved under the Law. The reason is, if you break one, you have broken them all.
Concerning (Eze. 18) God begins with,
If you do not do this, if you do not do that, if you do not do this and that and this and that
"if he has walked in My statues And kept My judgments faithfully he is just, (this is not justification by faith in Christ) he shall surely live" If they could only do all of His judgments, God is Just and would be willing to give them life. But guess what, none are just, none could keep all His judgments or laws. (v. 29) tells us,
"Yet the house of Israel says, The way of the Lord is not fair"
---Mark_V. on 11/28/12


"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? REPENT, and TURN from all your transgressions...and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies. Therefore TURN and live!" says the Lord God." Ezekiel 18.

MarkV,

You say this scripture means men cannot choose. I say this scripture, if it is to make sense, means man is able to choose God. You refuse to explain how the verbs Ezekiel chose mean man can't actually make a choice. Please, please, please, don't lead a church with such arrant nonsense.
---Marc on 11/27/12


//I was hoping you would add more details to defriencate them// Abraham was saved & blessed!Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and MY LAWS. Laws of YA [God} were there before the law of Moses!Galations 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the WORKS of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
1st Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 10 commandments? YES!
---J_Marc on 11/27/12


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What is salvation? It is actually coming into oneness with the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am [have been] crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:2
---michael_e on 11/27/12


//---Marc on 11/26/12///


Appreciating your postings--

Shalom
---char on 11/27/12


Marc, you say,

"You're confused. You said man can't choose, that only God chooses, now you say a man, chosen by God, can choose to be led away. That is, the Elect can be led away to become, presumably, the non-Elect.".

first, lost man cannot choose Christ, they choose what they love, but they don't love Christ. Only those who believe choose Christ. And the elect never become non elect. You presume too much.
The Elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. They are all born in sin because they are descendants of Adam. They will all be called one day, and they will believe because God will grant them faith, and repentance. They are elect because they were chosen, not because they are already saved.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/12


//Death taking care of ALL SIN...His Burial taking ALL SIN Out of the way and Rising from the Dead to give us life verlasting...---michael_e on 11/26/12//

Love this...

Shalom
---char on 11/26/12


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For the record:

Ez 18 (all)
[...]
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [...]
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die[...]

God is a true-just and fair God.


Shalom
---char on 11/26/12


The only Hope anyone has today is to follow Our Apostle Paul in this Dispensation as he followed the Risen Christ the Gospel for today is I Corinthians15:1-4.This has nothing to do with man made religion.It is Not about his Birthday...Not his earthly Ministry but his Death taking care of ALL SIN...His Burial taking ALL SIN Out of the way and Rising from the Dead to give us life verlasting...and you will not find this in any OTHER Dispensation but the here and Now today.
---michael_e on 11/26/12


Salvation continued

Messiah/ [meshiahh]-
Word is used for any "one who holds an office of authority" (such as a king or priest, prophets) Ex 29:7

From the root [mashahh] "to smear" Jer 22:14
(Every shepherd had a flask of olive oil used to smear on his or his sheep's injuries.)to save,rescue,relief...

Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Yah is rescue"

One God-
different/all Dimensions
2Kgs6:17,Ecc3:15,Jn1:1-14,Heb13:8,1Pet3:18-20,1 Tim1-17

Shalom
---char on 11/26/12


2nd posting:
Salvation continued...

The Priests, Kings and Prophets of Israel are the mashiyach of Israel, they are the ones who are anointed as men of authority.

Priest:[Kohen], from the root [ken-kaph/nun] meaning: opening of a seed.
The word [ken] means (yes-I will be firm in this)

The [kohen] is one who will stand firm with a strong base in the earth

The [kohen] stood as mediators between God and man (a stalk that stood tall)

When the seed opens, roots come out to form the base for the plant providing the support. The stalk (rises up straight and stiff).

continued'
---char on 11/26/12


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MarkV wrote: "Many[i.e. Christians] today are let astray, by false teachers. This words are warnings, instructions just like all of the NT."

You're confused. You said man can't choose, that only God chooses, now you say a man, chosen by God, can choose to be led away. That is, the Elect can be led away to become, presumably, the non-Elect.

Notwithstanding your ad hockery, 2 Peter 3:9,17 only makes sense if man can choose God. You've yet to prove your case, only blustering on about how learned you are and how theologically ill-educated I am because I CHOOSE not to hold your soteriology reflects God's character i.e. "God is LOVE".

Again, I ask about Ezekiel 18: Can these people choose God or can they not?
---Marc on 11/26/12


When we believe the gospel, as it was revealed to Paul, we became part of theBoC
We were baptized into the boC. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ..." (---michael_e on 11/26/12

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost AS WELL AS WE?

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us,

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

SO Same SPIRIT as everyone else, same faith as everyone else

what body do these belong too?
KEEP IN MIND THEY ARE GENTILES
---francis on 11/26/12


When we believe the gospel, as it was revealed to Paul, we became part of the boC. Since we are in the body, we are counted as crucified with Him. We died with Him, were buried with Him, and rose from the dead with Him. We are part of His body. Our citizenship is in heaven, and we are ambassadors (2 Cor 5:18-20)

We were baptized into the boC. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ..." (1 Cor 12:13 Not water baptism, but baptism into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal 3:27).

We are a new creature.(2 Cor 5:17). "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy ..." (Titus 3:5).
---michael_e on 11/26/12


Marc, you ask,
"Nevertheless, if the 'all' of v.9 are the elect, why does Peter say that these "beloved[should] beware in case you ALSO fall from your OWN steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked." (v.17)?
Marc, the whole N.T. is a book to guide the believers. It does not in anyway indicate someone loses his salvation. Peter ends his instruction with a summary statement of the same instruction with which he begin in (1:2-11). Persuing Christian maturity and a deepening knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ will lead to doctinal stability and prevent a Christian from being led astray.
Many today are let astray, by false teachers. This words are warnings, instructions just like all of the New T.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/12


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MarkV,

You still have not actually engaged with my logical point. Nevertheless, if the 'all' of v.9 are the elect, why does Peter say that these "beloved[should] beware in case you ALSO fall from your OWN steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked." (v.17)?

Logically (you really hate that word), the Elect can't fall away. You can't have it both ways: either the elect are the 'all', which means the Elect of v. 17 contradicts v.9, or the 'all' are who God really desires i.e. all people to come to him.

BTW, freedom of will IS shown by my quote of Ezekiel 18. It doesn't make sense otherwise. I guess that's why you avoided comment.
---Marc on 11/25/12


Salvation: Rescue, deliver, relief

Within man, God placed a (shadow/representation) of His function: goal, purpose, thought etc...
The adversary [hasatan] deceived--- and the desire of mans focus (is not) the (goal, purpose, thought etc...) of God.

God sent His Word: Written/spoken/ manifested in flesh----Aleph/Tav
to mankind.

Ysha Jn1:1-15, Matt1:18-25
Ysha defined: God rescues, delivers, saves, relief

"Yah is rescue"
(King of Kings/Lord of Lords)

The verb mashach is the root word of meshiyach(Stg's #4886) to anoint
Ysha: Jesus
Christ: anointed
---char on 11/25/12


MarkV,

All I can say is I hope you never get the theological God you deserve (and wish for!).
---Marc on 11/25/12


Marc, you keep arguing for no reason at all. If you believe God gave free will to man, or that man's will is free, then show the Scriptures. Of course you are not going to agree that the elect are the one's mentioned in (2 Peter 3:9). That passage is the one most of you use to argue with. But (v.3:7) spoke of:
"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, "are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
God could not be patiently waiting, and long suffering for the ungodly, since they are reserved for fire in the day of judgment.
The elect are all born under the curse like all others, God is patiently waiting for all to come to repentance.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/12


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Christian & MarkV,

"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Repent, and turn from all your transgressions...and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies. Therefore turn and live!" says the Lord God.

Man has free will or no free will?
---Marc on 11/24/12


MarkV wrote: "[re(2 Peter 3:9)] The 'any' 'us' refers to believers the "elect." some have not been born again yet. Read (v 3:5)"

MarkV, as I have said before, this is what is called question begging, an informal fallacy of logic. That is, you're arguing irrationally. You already believe the Elect, as individuals, are known from eternity, you argue that any verse which says that God wants ALL to come to him can only mean the Elect, therefore 2Peter 3:9's 'all' can only mean the Elect. Circular reasoning, young man, circular reasoning. Logically, the Calvinist Elect CAN'T possibly perish, so therefore 3:9 is a vacuous, information-empty statement if Calvinism is true.
---Marc on 11/24/12


Salvation means safety. If we are saved, we are safe >

safe from God's judgment (2 Corinthians 5:15-19)

safe from sinning (1 Corinthians 6:17)

safe emotionally (1 Peter 3:13)

but not perfect, still needing more correction > Hebrews 12:7-11

As we grow in God's love, we grow in how God's love has us becoming > Philippians 2:14-16, 1 John 4:17-18.
---willie_c: on 11/24/12


andrea, the word "salvation" is broad and varied. In it's simplest form it means "to save." When Israel escapes defeat, she is said to be saved. When the harvest is rescued from drought, the result is salvation. We are told there will be a day of judgment in which all humans beings will be held accountable before the tribunal of God on the Day of the Lord. This is the rescue operation Christ performs in people as their Savior.
The Bible uses the term salvation not only in many senses, but in many tenses. The verb to save appears in virtually every possible tense of the Greek language.
We are being saved from the foundation of the world.
we are being saved by being sanctified or made holy, this are but a few.
---Mark_V. on 11/24/12


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So simple in this age of Grace

1 Cor 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand,2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 11/24/12


the subject of salvation is covers many dozens of verses and is very lengthy. The false ministers led by Satan today deceive many into believing salvation is all about one verse and most importantly they all teach lasciviousness, or the license to sin, and remove all responsibility to be converted and live Gods way. The Lord did not become the lamb to take away the sins of those who call on him so they could continue to live like the sinner.

Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

which sins? past sins only

the knowledge is understanding salvation has many different components why God asks us to study to show yourself approved by God.
---Follower_of_Christ on 11/23/12


King James Bible says

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Other versions say virtually the same thing.

What we will be saved from will be the punishment due for sins committed. Christ took our punishment for those sins. They were all laid upon HIM so that we need not be punished for them. If we have confessed our sins and asked for forgiveness and continue to do so we are SAVED.
---Rita_H on 11/23/12


1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

We are to not to live in sin. But Salvation is the saving Grace given to us by JESUS CHRIST.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/23/12


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Salvation means LIFE. There is no other meaning.
When a person is saved, that person has(spiritual) life always.
Sin causes death.
Christ will give you LIFE.
---duane on 11/23/12


When God's salvation is wholly accomplished, there will be no more sin or unhappiness to be found anywhere in the universe!
---love.wins on 11/23/12


We are sanctified thru the truth. Jesus prayed to His father these words "Sanctify them thru the truth, your word is truth." John 17:17. God sent His Word into the world to tell us the truth John 18:37, John 1:14, John 17:8. Learning the truth is an ongoing process and one is not justified (saved) until judged by God and found to be blameless. Rev. 14:1-5. These are the 144,000 who will be sealed before the 1st of the 7 trumpets sound.

By keeping the laws of God and holding to the testimony of His Son we learn God's true plan for salvation. Rev. 21:7-8, Rev. 12:17.
---barb on 11/23/12


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