ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

JWs Don't Believe In Hell

Jehovah witnesses believe there is no lake of fire or what many here call hell. Does anyone know why? The lake of fire is in the N.W.T. Bible. So why do they oppose it? Any idea's? Is it because God is love, so He won't sent anyone there?

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Heaven & Hell Bible Quiz
 ---Mark_V. on 11/22/12
     Helpful Blog Vote (6)

Post a New Blog



David8318: Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, came into the world through the womb, and was eventually killed:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Jesus suffered, was in agony, in Hades being spiritually separated from God for 3 days, which is the eternal living-death of anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ's blood is divine and, therefore, able top cover their sins. Yet, Jesus was made alive in the spirit: Hades could not prevent the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ from being reunited.
---John_II on 12/8/12


'Having God raise Him up with mighty strength, well that is something to believe in'

But that is not what you believe JohnII. You believe Jesus was in 'agony' when in hades- 'why can't he feel pain in hades' you say. You don't believe Jesus died and therefore don't believe God 'raised him up'. If Jesus is alive after death, there's no need for a resurrection. Your immortal soul teaching negates the value of the resurrection.

This is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Jehovah allowed his son to die on our behalf to prove His Almighty power over death through the resurrection of His Son. Jesus actually died- & in a state of none existence, Hades. Jehovah though is 'victorious' over death. Ac.17:31, 1Cor.15:54-57.
---David8318 on 12/8/12


'But if Jesus died... going to Hades where death tried to keep a hold of Him (which Acts 2:24 attests to), having God raise Him up with mighty strength, well that is something to believe in'.

That's what I believe! You're worried about believing God switched Jesus off and turned him back on, but that's fundamentally what you're saying.

But I don't believe God 'turned Jesus off then on'. Do you believe God 'turned Jesus off', did God put Jesus to death? I don't follow that theology.

It was opponents of Jesus, ultimately sons of the devil who 'turned Jesus off'. But the guarantee we have is that Jehovah is more powerful than they & death put together- Ac.17:31. Hallelujah!

What do you mean 'soul separation from God'?
---David8318 on 12/7/12


David8318: If Jesus died (kaput) and then, after 3 days, God "switched him back on again", then what is so mightily powerful about that? That's simply deceptive if Ephesians 1:19,20, Colossians 2:12 and Philippians 3:10 are to be believed. But if Jesus died and suffered soul-separation from God, going to Hades where death tried to keep a hold of Him (which Acts 2:24 attests to), having God raise Him up with mighty strength, well that is something to believe in.

Ephesians 1:19,20 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead ..,

Notice that it doesn't say "from death".
---John_II on 12/6/12


Nobody is calling the resurrection of Jesus 'a trick'. At least I believe the resurrection. Unlike JohnII who doesn't- he believes the pagan "immortal soul" teaching, the pagan belief where people dodge death.

JohnII is a walking anomaly. He cites verses saying God resurrected Jesus and yet similarly believes Jesus was always conscious in hades- the 'holding area for the damned' and 'in agony'. Was Jesus dead or not? If Jesus is alive in hades, why does he need to be resurrected back to life? He is already alive!

Jesus was dead. God resurrecting Jesus is our guarantee of God's power over death- Acts 17:31. JohnII's 'immortal soul' belief negates the reality of death. Jesus was no Houdini. Jehovah has power over death.
---David8318 on 12/5/12




David8318: There is no cheap trick about this raising Jesus from the dead:

You've already swerved Ephesians 1:19 re. God's mighty power, but what about:

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

or Philippians 3:10:

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Hebrews 2:9 He suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

What's to taste about a "lights out" death? What's to suffer if He wasn't sentient in some form while in Hades?
---John_II on 12/5/12


David8318: As you say, you don't believe Jesus was in agony in Hades, but the Bible teaches otherwise:

Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead,

When? Answer: after 3 days

freeing Him from the agony of death,

How long was He in agony for? Answer: 3 days

because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Meaning Jesus was sentient while in Hades.

If Jesus felt pain in this world, why shouldn't Jesus have felt pain in Hades?

Even the C.E.B proves that their is a tussle going on:

Dictionary Dreadful: causing great dread, fear, or terror, terrible:

What was trying to hang on to Him? Answer - Death's dreadful grip.
---John_II on 12/5/12


By way of correction, The Common English Bible renders Acts 2:24, 'God freed him from death's dreadful grip'- Not Acts 2:31 as previously posted. And it was Peter saying this not Paul.

In conclusion, I disagree totally with JohnII belief in hades and his view of the world. If the world was already condemned, then there was no reason for Jesus to come in the first place. Also Hades is not a 'holding area for the damned', rather it is the condition of being dead, the same condition experienced by Jesus Christ, who obviously was not damned- Acts.2:31.

The dead 'know nothing'- Eccs.9:5 (NIV). Eternal life is given only to the righteous, not the wicked- Ro.6:23.
---David8318 on 12/5/12


John- I didn't say you said the world was a "holding area for the damned". I asked you if you want us to believe the world is a 'holding area for the condemned'?

Your reply is "What's already condemned?... Answer: The World (of mankind). So clearly, in other words you are promoting the view that the world is a 'holding area for the condemned'.

I disagree with your understanding. "The world" at 1 Cor.11:32 is I believe the world of mankind alienated from God and his son Jesus. There have been many from Adam's day onward considered righteous by God, and therefore not condemned. The whole nation of Israel was a blessed, chosen race by God- not condemned. Jesus wasn't sent to a wholly condemned world.
---David8318 on 12/4/12


John- so do you imagine Jesus was in 'agony' in hades? Was Jesus in pain? Do you believe Jesus was damned and was being punished? What are you trying to say?

I don't believe Peter at Acts 2:31 was teaching Jesus was in 'agony' or in 'pain'. Again its the condition of death, the removal of life and the loss of freedom that comes with death that is 'agonising' or 'painful'- not that people suffer agony or pain when dead.

The Common English Bible renders Acts 2:31, 'God freed him from death's dreadful grip'.

Jesus wasn't 'agonising' in hades. Its the condition of being dead which is the agony & from which only Jehovah God can undo.
---David8318 on 12/4/12




David8318:

1 Cor.11:32, 'When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world' (NIV).

What's already condemned?

Answer: The World (of mankind) - Genesis 3

I'll rephrase the question about Acts 2:24 :-

If JWs believe that Death and Hades is the state of being dead, i.e., not a living-death, why was Jesus in agony while dead?

I never said the world was a "holding area for the damned", or that the planet itself was doomed, so steady on, let's not be fatuous.
---John_II on 12/4/12


JohnII- so now you want us to believe the world is a 'holding area for the condemned'!? What ridiculous reasoning!

1 Cor.11:32, 'When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world' (NIV).


Not everyone is condemned & any condemnation is future! But its the world of mankind not the planet! Christ wasn't sent to save us from 'a condemned planet' but condemnation from Adam- Ro.5:18. Face it John, your doctrine on hades doesn't fit!

Acts 2:24 doesn't say Jesus wasn't in hades, but supports what Paul states at 2:31. Being dead meant Jesus was in hades. Thus Hades is not a 'holding area for the damned'.

Like your reasoning, your question is unintelligible.
---David8318 on 12/4/12


David8318: U say that Jesus cannot have been sent to a place which holds the damned - like Hades - yet Jesus was sent into the world:

John 10:36 ... whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? ....

The world which is damned:

1 Cor. 11:32 .., ... so that we will not be condemned with the world.

So forgive me if I find your own reasoning confutable - by what the Bible teaches.

You keep hurling Acts 2:31 in, yet I have given you:

Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Pray tell, what is so agonising about a dead-dead that you JWs hold to?
---John_II on 12/4/12


JohnII, if you would like to discuss the nature of Jesus then open a blog relevant to that issue.

You complain I believe Jesus is created, while you fallaciously believe 'Hades is a holding place for the damned'. Of course scripture can overturn false reasoning. As Jesus was in hades, it cannot be a 'holding place for the damned'- Acts 2:31.

Hades is the condition of being dead. It is not a holding place for the damned or any other place or location.
---David8318 on 12/3/12


David8318: Jesus was unjustly condemned:

Luke 23:40,41 .., saying, Do not you fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, .....

But Jesus partook:

John 10:17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

So, what is so mightily powerful about God turning any creature* off and then back on again?

The mighty power is in the re-uniting after that spiritual separation from God (Mark 15:34) that Jesus suffered in Hades:

Ephesians 1:19 That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead ..,

Or is God into cheap tricks?

* JWs teach jesus is a created being.
---John_II on 12/3/12


JohnII- I wasn't agreeing with you. I am in agreement with what Acts 2:24 states about Jesus not being held in death or 'hades'. His death was unjust and as a God's son deserved to be resurrected.

You still maintain those in 'hades' are damned and at the same time believe Jesus was in hades. You are a huge contradiction! You dogmatically state falsehoods without thinking things through or checking your facts.

The fact Jesus spent time in 'hades' while dead blows your fallacious reasoning out of the water that hades is a 'holding area for the damned'. Hades is not what you purport it to be. It is not a place for the damned. Its the condition of being dead, the same condition Jesus was in before God resurrected him- Acts 2:31.
---David8318 on 12/3/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Business Training


David8318: How can you say, "Yes I agree, death had no hold on Jesus" i.e., agreeing with me and Acts 2:24, and then persist in saying that I behold Jesus as damned? Do you understand what damned actually means? The damned in Hades are damned because they have one destination - the Lake of Fire - where the Bible teaches that a living-death goes on forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

Dictionary definition of damned - condemned or doomed, especially to eternal punishment.

Jesus was in Hades, but as Acts 2:31 says, "that neither was He left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption." So your saying that I believe Jesus is damned is puerile, and only hopes to ensnare the ignorant.
---John_II on 12/3/12


JohnII- I have no issue with Acts 2:24. Yes I agree, death had no hold on Jesus. But Paul elaborated Jesus' condition at Acts 2:31, describing Jesus as not being 'left in Hades' (ASV).

If you believe 'Hades is a holding area for the damned', your teaching on Hades is clearly flawed. Obviously flawed because Jesus spent time in Hades before God resurrected him, as clearly taught at Acts 2:31.

Unless of course you teach what is antichrist, that Jesus is 'damned' like all others 'held in Hades' as you believe. But I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt and view your reasoning as seriously flawed. You have been misled as to what Hades really is.
---David8318 on 12/2/12


JohnII you ask, 'What are Fiery Furnace and tares and wheat symbolic of if not Hades and "deceased mankind"?' Why ask when Jesus gives the definition?

'The good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one' Mt.13:38 (NIV). Nothing about 'hades' or dead mankind. Jesus' parable at Matthew 13:36-43 is limited to identifying true Christians- 'sons of the kingdom' ('wheat') and false Christians- 'sons of the evil one' (or 'weeds').

Jesus used numerous parabolic illustrations in Matthew 13 beginning 'The kingdom of heaven is like...' (eg.verses 24,31,33). Jesus' parable of the fiery furnace and the wheat & weeds is no more literal than the 'mustard grain' or the 'dragnet'.
---David8318 on 12/2/12


Pt 1 - John II believes 'Hades is a holding area for the damned'

David8318: Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

So Jesus never was damned, therefore, I don't believe what you frantically assert I do below.

What are Fiery Furnace and tares and wheat symbolic of if not Hades and "deceased mankind"? Who can believe it's about false teachers 'feeling the heat'! When will the angels, mentioned at Matt. 13:39, go out to harvest the earth? Answer - at Rev. 14:14-20. Jesus will harvest the saved, while the angels the unsaved. Nothing specifically about exposing false teachers here.
---John_II on 12/2/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Software


JohnII believes 'Hades is a holding area for the damned'.

Paul taught about, '...the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption'- Acts 2:31.

The fact God did not 'leave' Christ in Hades means Christ was for a time in Hades. But JohnII believes "Hades is a holding area for the damned".

JohnII thus believes Jesus Christ is 'damned', so he cannot have conquered death.

But I'd rather believe JohnII understanding of Hades is flawed. Hades is not 'an area' or a 'place' (as taught in Islam and the orient). It is the condition of being dead, the opposite of life, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 states where the dead 'know nothing' (NIV).
---David8318 on 12/2/12


JohnII- at Matt.13:36-45 Jesus is not discussing 'hades', nor deceased mankind, neither is 'flesh' mentioned. Your reasoning is flawed. Mt.13 is specific to the 'end of the age' (Mt.13:49 NIV) and 'the sons of the kingdom'. The 'fiery furnace' is figurative just as the 'wheat and the weeds' are. Opposers of the 'sons of the kingdom' will feel the heat because their false teachings will be exposed.

You falsely claim 'Come the resurrection, all those in Hades will be emptied into Hell, the Lake of Fire:Revelation 20:13,14.' You're misleading- before it is thrown to the Lake of Fire, 'Hades gave up the dead that were in them' (NIV). Thus no one is thrown into the 'The Lake of Fire', which is symbolic of destruction & non-existence.
---David8318 on 12/2/12


David8318: Hades is a holding area for the damned:
Matthew 13:36-45 | the Furnace of Fire. (Notice that the flesh is not burned up, for they weep and gnash.)

The angels will have harvested them after Jesus has gleaned His own:
Revelation:14:14-20

Come the resurrection, all those in Hades will be emptied into Hell, the Lake of Fire:
Revelation 20:13,14

If you feel all this is too hot - and feel more at ease in JW - then you won't like 2 Peter 2:9

For all intents and purposes, I should suppose that both Hades, the Furnace, and the Lake of Fire will feel like, well, Hell.

There is no annihilation of souls:
Revelation 20:10 ... where they will be tormented for ever and ever.
---John_II on 12/1/12


Ruben- you say scripture is not on the side of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the 'immortal soul' doctrine, and then proceed to quote Matthew 10:28,

"...but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]."

The soul can be destroyed- it is not immortal. No where in scripture does the term 'immortal soul' appear.

JohnII- 1 Cor.15:53,54 I agree does teach immortality. But not of the soul. No where does Paul teach the 'immortal soul' doctrine. In fact Paul at 1 Cor.15:35 teaches some would be 'raised from the dead' to receive immortality. Makes no sense if as you believe they didn't die in the first place.

'The soul that sinneth, it shall die'- Eze.18:4 (KJV).
---David8318 on 12/1/12


Send a Free Love Ecard


'So we can deduce from the passage that the entities are real, but are being described symbolically in their appearance'- MarkEaton.

I agree! Yes the dragon, the wild beast & the false prophet are real entities, but are described 'symbolically in their appearance'.

The Lake of Fire is also "symbolic in its appearance" of the complete eternal destruction of the symbolic descriptions of real entities 'hurled there' (Rev.20:10)- the 'dragon', the 'wild beast' and the 'false prophet' even 'hades'.

If you accept these are symbolic in their appearance, why is it wrong to believe the 'Lake of Fire' is also symbolic in its appearance? Can what is symbolic be put into something that is literal?
---David8318 on 11/30/12


They also do not believe in an immortal soul. Because that idea is not found in the Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/12

1 Cor 15:53,54 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Doctrine of Immortality:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God ... Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Yet JWs believe in a created jesus, so he cannot have conquered death.
---John_II on 11/30/12


They also do not believe in an immortal soul. Because that idea is not found in the Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/12

scripture is not on thier side:

MATTHEW 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]."
---Ruben on 11/30/12


Witness believe the lake of fire is symbolic.

They also do because they believe that it is unjust to torture a person for all eternity for a life of sins. They also do not believe in an immortal soul. Because that idea is not found in the Bible.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Advertising


David8318Rev.13:1, 20:10. //The 'wild beast' and the 'Lake of Fire'- Which one is literal, which one is not?// Look at the words AS & LIKE!! The Lake of fire is literal! No AS or LIKE can be found!Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
---J_Marc on 11/29/12


Which is literal and which is not, the 'wild beast' or the 'Lake of Fire'? (Rev.20:10)
---David8318 on 11/28/12

I am assuming you are describing the beast in Rev. 13:1.

The beast is literal in the sense that it will appear in the future, but will it literally appear as a "beast"? No.

But there is more to it. The beast when coming out of the sea is greated by a dragon, who we are told in the previous chapter, is the serpent of old, the devil and Satan. Is Satan literally a dragon? No, but we know that Satan is literally real because He is mentioned in other Scripture. So we can deduce from the passage that the entities are real, but are being described symbolically in their appearance.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/29/12


David8318Rev.13:1, //The 'wild beast' and the 'Lake of Fire'- Which one is literal, which one is not?// Look the next verse at the words AS & LIKE!! The beast is symbolic !
Revelation 13:2-3 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death, and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
---J_Marc on 11/29/12


The 'wild beast' with '10 horns and 7 heads' is also hurled into the 'Lake of Fire'- Rev.13:1, 20:10. The 'wild beast' and the 'Lake of Fire'- Which one is literal, which one is not?

---David8318 on 11/29/12

David,

'The wild beast' is not literal per se however it does represent someone or something correct? In Rev 5:6 it reads "stood a Lamb as though it had been slain". Now we know it is not a lamb but we also know it is talking about Jesus and last i check hr is real!
BTW also thrown in the lake of fire with the beast is the devil and false prophet "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Are they also symbolic?
---Ruben on 11/29/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Eating Disorders


Hi, David > first, in my post below I spelled "dead" wrong, as "deal" > it should be > "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6) So, yes a person can be "dead" and be living > by being love-dead, but conscious in sin.

Arguing is love-dead, but very active and conscious. It says "Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14) > so complaining is also love-dead, but conscious with suffering and torment.

So, yes you can be dead but conscious in torment > love-dead "fear involves torment" (in 1 John 4:18) > one who takes the mark of the beast "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" (in Revelation 14:9-10).
---willie_c: on 11/29/12


David8318Rev.13:1, 20:10. //The 'wild beast' and the 'Lake of Fire'- Which one is literal, which one is not?// Look the next verse at the words AS & LIKE!! The beast is symbolic !
---J_Marc on 11/29/12


J Marc, perhaps you could answer the question I've been asking hell-fire pushers for so long on this thread- hell-fire pushers such as MarkV, shira, MarkEaton et al, who it seems have been stumped. You state the "Lake of Fire is [ sorry its literal!]...", then do you believe the 'wild beast' is also literal or is it symbolic?

The 'wild beast' with '10 horns and 7 heads' is also hurled into the 'Lake of Fire'- Rev.13:1, 20:10. The 'wild beast' and the 'Lake of Fire'- Which one is literal, which one is not?

Unless of course you've seen a '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast'? Is it in a zoo somewhere?
---David8318 on 11/29/12


To repeat what the Jewish scholar said- 'the valley was later transformed into a rubbish dump for Jerusalem serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to destroy rubbish.'

So when Ruben puts rubbish into an incinerator, he has difficulty understanding the rubbish will be destroyed or annihilated?
---David8318 on 11/28/12

David,

Where does the Jewish scholar and Jesus use the word 'annihilated'?

Both say where fires were kept burning :

"where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (MK 9:43)

I quess Jesus also did not understand:)
---Ruben on 11/28/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Travel Packages


David, That Consciencious objectors have a longer life expectancy than Military men is a given.But they owe their freedom of religion and freedom from slavery to those same guys/gals who put there lives on the line!
God did not rescue 6 million Jews (there were also witnesses in the camps) Allied forces freed them before they were all exterminated, no thanks to the WTBTS!
I'm very proud and thankful my father had the guts to be there!
---1st_cliff on 11/28/12


Mark Eaton- I'm happy to answer issues you raise regarding Mark chapter 9 until you've answered my original question you took issue with but continue to avoid- which one is literal and which is not, the 'wild beast' or the 'Lake of Fire'? Rev.20:10.

I've asked this question of hell-fire pushers MarkV, shira and others. No hell-fire pusher has been able to answer. It's stumped them because they know the 'wild beast' can't be literal.

What's your answer Mark Eaton?
---David8318 on 11/28/12


MarkV- anything you say needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Nothing in 'Studies in the Scriptures' detracts from studying the scriptures- hence its title. Before you get too excited, the Bible used by WatchtowerSociety (WTS) then was the KJV- the NWT had not yet been produced. So your bizarre assertion 'Studies in the Scriptures' somehow deleted parts of the Bible is yet another lie.

While the WTS distributed these Bible study aids prior to 1914, your trinitarian cults were distributing rifles and bullets. WTS knew what was coming... 'Studying the Scriptures' literally saved lives. In fact, the life expectancy of any male in your trinitarian cults was very short compared to a Bible Student prior to and during 1914.
---David8318 on 11/28/12


'Why would Jesus use that example if in your doctrine people are cutoff/annihilation'- Ruben.

To repeat what the Jewish scholar said- 'the valley was later transformed into a rubbish dump for Jerusalem serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to destroy rubbish.'

So when Ruben puts rubbish into an incinerator, he has difficulty understanding the rubbish will be destroyed or annihilated? Is Ruben that closeted he doesn't put rubbish out or destroy it? Perhaps Ruben doesn't understand what incinerator or destroy means? I'll for the time being give Ruben the benefit of the doubt.
---David8318 on 11/28/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Repair


David8318 Agreed!//The[for ever burning] hell-fire doctrine is found in all false religions.// Needs more study!->//Many Bible translators have taken the liberty of rendering Gehenna as 'hell'. (Mat.5:22, KJV) Why? Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, however, never associated Gehenna with eternal torment.//->//Lake of Fire is [ sorry its literal!]symbolic of complete destruction with no possibility of return.// Agreed!
---J_Marc on 11/28/12


Jesus used the word Gehenna & corresponds to the Hebrew 'geh Hin-nom', meaning 'valley of Hinnom'- Josh.15:8.

Jewish scholar David Kimhi says the valley was later transformed into a rubbish dump for Jerusalem serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to destroy rubbish.


---David8318 on 11/27/12

Why would Jesus use that example if in your doctrine people are cutoff/annihilation:

MATTHEW 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]."
---Ruben on 11/28/12


please don't feel sorry for me but feel bad for you.
---shira4368 on 11/28/12

Sorrow in this instance is irrelevent. Nothing has been lost.

God has a goal. He will become All in all [1C 15:28]. His Son will accomplish what is needed for that to occur [Col 1:20]

The light we have received is the measure of our requital at the Dais of God. Those who have been faithful in ministering truth have their reward then.

What we proclaim, and what Holy Spirit witnesses to, that is all that matters. Care is needed, and that is what I seek.
---Phil on 11/28/12


Mark Eaton, you still have not answered the question.

Which is literal and which is not, the 'wild beast' or the 'Lake of Fire'? (Rev.20:10)
---David8318 on 11/28/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Products


Jesus, however, never associated Gehenna with eternal torment. The hell-fire doctrine is found in all false religions.
---David8318 on 11/27/12

I must disagree. Jesus did in fact associate Gehenna with the afterlife. Did you miss these verses:

Mark 9:43-46 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell"

Not sure I understand what you are saying about eternal torment.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/28/12


phil, believe what you may. hell is a real place. all I said was why take a chance in case hell is real. frankly, the dead are the unsaved you speak about. that is the second death. I won't experience the second death because I was quickened by the Holy Spirit and I will live in heaven forever...eternal life. yes, that is in the bible. the saved are born twice and die once but the unsaved is born once but die twice. please don't feel sorry for me but feel bad for you.
---shira4368 on 11/28/12


My question which you dodge clumsily is which is literal & which is not? The 'wild beast' or the Lake of Fire?
---David8318 on 11/27/12

I did not dodge the question. I merely pointed out to you what you pointed out to me. What is literal and what is not?

You have decided that the Lake of Fire is not literal. Great. However, to form an accurate opinion we must consider the facts. As many have pointed out to you, there are references to similar places in the Bible, even by Jesus. To me, this gives weight to the literal side of the balance.

Jesus mentioned the "Gehenna fire" and the "fire that is not quenched". These are additional descriptions of the Lake of Fire.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/28/12


Re 20:13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them...And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

Haides, which means unperceived in Greek, is where all souls return to at death.

Only the Lord returned from Haides.

When the dead are made alive in Christ, "hell" ceases to exist.

Hell [KJV] is comprised of the dead ones. It does not exist apart from them.

Hell ceases to exist at the White Throne judgment, when the souls composing it are made alive.

It/they are cast into the lake of fire - the second death.
---Phil on 11/28/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Divorce


Shira- I doubt God wants someone who has sullied his name with the false pagan hell-fire doctrine to be with him in heaven.

Interesting you hypocritically believe if you are "wrong" you still feel saved yet for others who are 'wrong' its 'hell and damnation'. True 'born again' Christians have a 'spirit of adoption' from the holy spirit. As hell-fire hasnot been inspired by holy spirit, your attitude is not a 'spirit of adoption' but a spirit of self-righteous arrogance.

Your pagan hell-fire is wrong. Those guilty pushing the hell-fire doctrine I believe fall into the group described at Matt.7:22,23 who call on Jesus saying 'Lord, Lord...' yet Jesus says to them, 'get away from me you workers of lawlessness'.
---David8318 on 11/28/12


David, the founder of your cult Charles Russell, wrote a book "Studies in the Scriptures" to oppose the use of the Bible. Which is the reason why many of you twist words in the Bible. And the reason it was changed, and complete passages taken out. He said,
"If you had merely read the "Scripture studies" (his books) with their references and had not read a page of the Bible as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures"
If these words be true, the Witnesses of today must be getting light elsewhere or else not getting light at all because those books have long be unavailable. The Watchtower Society itself removed these from availability.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/12


ok cliff, I need to support jmarc concerning hell. jmarc you hit the nail on the head with your answer. cliff does not believe many things the bible says. that is his loss. God bless
---shira4368 on 11/27/12


i never said that! J Mark, //OK a fire of that size and magnitude could not be hidden for thousands of years....where is it?
You're right, it doesn't exist! We no longer live in the dark ages! //
---1st_cliff on 11/27/12 i said,
Look at where it ends up! Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
---J_Marc on 11/27/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Marriage


J Mark: Just how does one cast "hell" into the lake of fire???
More rediculously (if literal) how is "death" cast into the fire? Maybe you toss the "Grim Reaper" with the sythe in the fire, huh?
---1st_cliff on 11/27/12


J Marc, Jesus did not use the word 'hell' at Mt.5:22.

Jesus used the word Gehenna & corresponds to the Hebrew 'geh Hin-nom', meaning 'valley of Hinnom'- Josh.15:8.

Jewish scholar David Kimhi says the valley was later transformed into a rubbish dump for Jerusalem serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to destroy rubbish.

Many Bible translators have taken the liberty of rendering Gehenna as 'hell'. (Mat.5:22, KJV) Why? Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, however, never associated Gehenna with eternal torment.

The hell-fire doctrine is found in all false religions.
---David8318 on 11/27/12


Mark Eaton- you craftily shift the issue from what is literal to what one believes.

My question which you dodge clumsily is which is literal & which is not? The 'wild beast' or the Lake of Fire? What one believes is not the issue.

You obviously can't answer for fear of calling the Lake of Fire symbolic. Heaven knows what your priest would say to you! You know the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' is not literal, so why should I believe the Lake of Fire to be literal? (Rev.20:10)

Note what Ezekiel said just prior to recording the 4 living creatures- Ezek.1:1, "I began to see visions of God". Also in the verse you quote, "...resembling four living beings"- note the words 'visions' and 'resembling'.
---David8318 on 11/27/12


strong axe, Could it not be that Jesus avowed on His dieing day that the thief would see paradise?
Incidentally paradise does not mean "heaven"
Eden was Paradise, the word here is actually Persian in origin and means park or garden surrounded by trees.
This describes effectively the "New earth" promised in future, a paradise indeed!
---1st_cliff on 11/27/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Consolidation


--David8318 you wrote "Jesus Christ while on earth never used the word "hell"". Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL fire.Look at the origins of the word! SHEOL: Heb, grave, hell, pit. HADES: Greek, grave, hell. TATARUS: Greek, cast down to hell. Greek, GEHENNAH: Greek, hell fire. Look at where it ends up! Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
---J_Marc on 11/27/12


J Mark, OK a fire of that size and magnitude could not be hidden for thousands of years....where is it?
You're right, it doesn't exist! We no longer live in the dark ages!
---1st_cliff on 11/27/12


david, if I am in a cult, then...all my cult will be in heaven if they are born again into the family of God. the bible has much to say about the lake of fire. just take a moment and think what will happen if you are wrong. If i'm wrong, I will still be in heaven.
---shira4368 on 11/27/12


//Jehovah witnesses believe there is no lake of fire or what many here call hell. Does anyone know why?//2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
---J_Marc on 11/27/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Refinancing


1st_cliff:

You are right. The standard translation merely assumes that the comma should be before "today". But your assumption that it should be after "today" is just as arbitrary. The only justification one can have for making such a claim is by basing it on a pre-existing doctrine, which must be based on some other scriptures.

And in any case, he DID say the thief WOULD be with him in paradise, whether that was "today" or merely "eventually". One cannot use this verse, regardless of interpretation, to support the view that people do NOT go to heaven.
---StrongAxe on 11/26/12


No Cluny, you and shira teaching cultist false religious teachings, not Jesus. You and shira promote the pagan hell-fire doctrine, not Jesus.

Your statement about Jesus- "In fact, He said more about hell than about heaven" is ridiculous and cannot be supported by scripture. Jesus never spoke the word "hell" Cluny. Why do you keep lying about Jesus? You're not bringing "Glory to Jesus" whatsoever. Jesus did not teach sinners are given eternal life to burn for all eternity. Jesus taught love and forgiveness, a reflection of qualities his Father Jehovah God possessed. Qualities you obviously have yet to understand.
---David8318 on 11/27/12


David, here you say,

"MarkV insists, 'the lake of fire is literal'.

MarkV thus believes the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' is also literal- Rev.20:10.
MarkV also believes spirit creatures such as the Devil and his angels can be affected by physical fire?"

I never talked about the 7 headed wild beast as literal. Spirit creatures will feel the fire of God. He is an all consuming fire, He is Spirit. It is not physical fire, but the fire of God. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all consuming fire. But don't worry, that place is not a place of cruel punishment. Because it is impossible for God to be cruel. You will get what you deserve.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/12


do you believe there is a literal '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast'? Have you seen one?
---David8318 on 11/26

If you do not believe in this beast, do you believe in these creatures?

Eze 1:5-9 "Within it there were figures resembling four living beings. And this was their appearance: they had human form. Each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight and their feet were like a calfs hoof, and they gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides were human hands. As for the faces and wings of the four of them, their wings touched one another, their faces did not turn when they moved, each went straight forward"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/27/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Franchises


Strong Axe, Given that punctuation was not invented 'till the 14th century,the Comma is obviously wrongly inserted.Should be after "today" Since "that day" He was laid in the tomb (hardly paradise,huh)Jesus Himself was not raised to "life" for another 2 days!
Translators also were "denominational" (you believe for a second they had no bias?)
He was promising the thief a resurrection,not instant glory!
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


\\Shira, hell-fire is a false religious doctrine found in all false religious cult teachings. \\

Then Jesus taught false religious cult doctrines. In fact, He said more about hell than about heaven.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/26/12


Shira, hell-fire is a false religious doctrine found in all false religious cult teachings. My salvation is not dependent on false religious teachings but on Jesus Christ's teaching- and Jesus never spoke the word hell, nor did he teach in any way that sinners are tortured for all eternity in fire.

Your teaching of hell and that of false religion serves Satan's goal of driving people to atheism. Nobody can relate a 'God of love' to a God who will burn people eternally.

Shira- do you believe there is a literal '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast'? Have you seen one? Such a 'wild beast' is hurled into the 'Lake of Fire'- Re.20:10. Which is literal & which is not? The 'wild beast' or the Lake of Fire?
---David8318 on 11/26/12


1st_cliff:

You asked: Shira, I'd like to see that scripture that says you go to heaven at death!

How about this one: Jesus to the thief on the cross: Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
---StrongAxe on 11/26/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Lead Generation


david8318, markv is correct on all points. hell is a real place and real people are going there and so will you if you don't get saved.
---shira4368 on 11/26/12


Shira, I'd like to see that scripture that says you go to heaven at death!
FYI there is a literal hell (Sheol/Hades)the common grave of mankind. A figurative hell (Gehenna Jesus used as illustration)
An angelic hell (Tartarus for satan and his followers)
Which one do you advocate we avoid?
You said "He is preparing a place for His "bride" (is this a literal bride?) You need to learn the difference between figurative and literal!
Agreat deal of scripture is metaphorical!
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


MarkV insists, 'the lake of fire is literal'.

MarkV thus believes the '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' is also literal- Rev.20:10.

MarkV also believes spirit creatures such as the Devil and his angels can be affected by physical fire? Did the angel who rescued the 3 Hebrews out of Nebuchadnezzar's furnace, have to wear Kevlar?- Dan.3:25.

MarkV insistence that the 'wild beast' is literal and that spirit creatures can be affected by physical fire is laughable.

The hell-fire teaching is found in all satanic false religious organisations and has fooled the gullible, controlled the masses and raked in the cash.
---David8318 on 11/26/12


David, the lake of fire is literal. All passages speaking of hell are intended to refer to the lake of fire depending on the context. The devil, Satan, the dragon, the serpent of old mentioned in (Rev. 20:2) and now mentioned in the context of (v. 20:10) satan and his angels were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are at that time. Now listen who else is there,
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, "who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11)
So in that lake of fire, Continuous, unrelieved torment will be the final state of Satan, his angels and unredeemed men.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/12


Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages


cliff, I don't know where you are going when you die but I will be in heaven when it becomes my time to go. the bible does say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. My Lord is in heaven sitting on the right hand of God. it also tells us that God is preparing a place for His bride...who are the born again children of God. cliff, sorry to tell you there is hell and if you read revelation it will tell you about it.
---shira4368 on 11/26/12


MarkV is wrong. God is a God of Love and a God of true Justice, not the grossly unfair justice MarkV believes God dispenses through the mythical, pagan hell-fire doctrine.

MarkV states, 'Jesus Christ talked about Hell or the lake of fire, more then anyone in Scripture. If you want to say He was wrong, just say it'. Jesus Christ never uttered the word hell or implied sinners are given eternal life to burn in fire.

Jesus referred to the Lake of Fire- but not in relation to the eternal punishment of sinners. Neither MarkV nor any other promoter of the hell-fire doctrine can explain where they have literally seen a '10 horned, 7 headed wild beast' which is also hurled into the lake of fire.
---Daivd8318 on 11/25/12


Shira,Neither do you want to be teaching falsehood!
There's nothing in scripture that says people keep living after they die!
Gen. says that Adam "became" a living soul.
When he died he became a dead soul!(elementary)
You're assuming that the departing spirit (pneuma= breath,air wind) somehow contains the person's consciousness, Not scriptural but pagan in origin!
Revelation says future life depends on "if" your name is written in the Lamb's book of life!
---1st_cliff on 11/25/12


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.