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Did Jesus Come Invisibly

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses still hold on to 1914 creed?

The origin of all Watchtower teachings that makes them unique over all other religions is their creed of Jesus second coming 'invisibly' in the year 1914.

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 ---Danny_Haszard on 11/23/12
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Jerry, the World did not end in 1914. However, I believe Jesus' presence began in 1914. Marc has kindly quoted from the 'Kingdom Come' book which explains it well: 'the kingdom is a real kingdom, an actual government...this mighty King [has started] his reign over our earth [in] the year 1914CE.'

Jesus' invisible presence began in 1914. Revelation 12 describes the birth of the heavenly Kingdom. The first act of Christ's kingdom was to cast Satan out of heaven to earth- Re.12:9. Thus, 'Woe for the earth...'- Re.12:12. Therefore, the 'birth' of the heavenly Kingdom is not synonymous with peace on earth. Rather Jesus is 'ruling in the midst of his enemies'- Ps.110:2 (KJV).

The manner of Jesus' future 'coming' is visible- Mt.24:30.
---David8318 on 3/25/13


Jerry, take a chill pill- the reason for highlighting 'parousia' is because of the issue raised in this blog. Your partial quote of Strongs under 'parousia' is highly selective and very misleading. The part you selectively quote is the present participle- 'pareimi' which means 'a being near, i.e. Advent (often, return, specially, of Christ...)'. Strongs does not define 'parousia' as 'return'.

You ignore Strongs direct definition of 'parousia' as 'a presence, a coming'. As I stated before, 'parousia' does not mean 'return'. No translation uses 'return' at Matt.24:3 or in any occurrence of 'parousia' in the Greek.

I have shown corroborating texts. Jesus gave signs indicating his 'parousia' (presence) is not visible (24:6-14).
---David8318 on 3/24/13


"Blood Transfusion"- Mark_V

I will, again, offer my condolences for Mark_V's loss. But, whatever the medical condition, a blood transfusion is no guarantee of survival. Certainly, no doctor would ever state as much...particularly in writing.

While the stand that Witnesses take on blood is a religious one, (Acts 15:20, 29, etc.), many others seem to be unaware of the genuine, medical health risks associated with transfused blood.

"An epidemiologic survey of 3,534 patients in 146 western European ICUs, confirmed increased mortality rates (ICU and hospital) in transfused patients." Journal of the Society of Anesthesiologists Vol. 108 January 2008

Continued
---scott on 3/24/13


"Blood Transfusion"- (2)

"Researchers examined the death rate of 4,073 patients with...myocardial infarction 30 days after the heart attack... Among the 363 patients who received transfusions, the post-heart attack death rate after 30 days was 13 percent, compared to just five percent for the 3,710 non-transfused patients. After adjusting for baseline characteristics, transfusion was still associated with higher mortality." Science Daily

"...blood transfusion is associated with an increased rate of tumor recurrence." S. Motoyama et al Surgery Today, 2002

"Blood transfusion has often been shown to reduce cancer survival." British Journal of Surgery, 2002
---scott on 3/24/13


1. "the kingdom is a real kingdom, an actual government...this mighty King [has started] his reign over our earth [in] the year 1914CE." ('Let your kingdom Come' p.9,111)
2. "What does God require of those who will reside forever upon his Paradise earth?...[We must] be associated with God's channel, his organization...Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for the guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization?" No, we cannot!" (WT, 1/15/83, p. 12,27)
---Marc on 3/24/13




Born, whichever religion you belong you believe its the right one. Otherwise what would be the point of following its precepts if you didn't? Jehovah's Witnesses are free of pagan doctrines such as trinity, hellfire and immortal soul dogmas (found in all false religions). Avoiding these false teachings is the right course to follow.

When Jesus said, 'Keep doing this in remembrance of me' (Lu.22:19), he'd just finished observing the passover with his disciples, a yearly event on a specific date- Nisan 14. The passover pointed to Christ's sacrifice as the 'Lamb of God'. Jesus had just instituted the 'New Covenant'. It's reasonable to conclude to 'keep doing this' on a yearly basis on the exact date Jesus did- this year it falls on March 26.
---David8318 on 3/24/13


David,

You are suffering from parousia paranoia. I have heard of people making a religion out of a single text, but you make one out of a single word! I have repeatedly asked for corroborating texts from the Bible, but you have not been able to produce any. FYI, Strongs states:

parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
.... a being near, that is, advent (often, return, specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked), (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

You are so fixated on justifying your JW doctrine that you completely ignore the context of Mat 24. It is the end of the world! News Flash - the world didn't end in 1914! Mat 24 is about Jesus' VISIBLE 2nd coming.

---jerry6593 on 3/24/13


Born, you are so right in your answers. I had a sister who was a witness, she died refusing to take the blood at surgery. In 1989 she took me to one of their gatherings where they pass the communion, no one took the bread, when it got to me my sister told me not to get one, only those of the 144,000 could. One lady took one out of the members. I asked my sister why she took one? And she told me she was one of the 144,000. I asked her how they knew she was, and she said they just knew. At what point do they know you are one of the few? Maybe when they tell you, or maybe when you get a letter from the Watchtower you have done enough work. I really never found out.
---Mark_V. on 3/24/13


Jehovah Witness hold to a lot of things. Interestingly, their founder died on Halloween. I think that they are right on a number of teachings, but no one is right on everything and their greatest error is thinking themselves right on everything. My goodness. The eucharist is once a year and none eat the bread or drink the wine, they just pass around and touch and forbid one to take. This do in remembrance of me? And marriages being forever? I hope not. Jesus spoke of us being as angels, not being stuck in human form with the same spouse forever.
---Born on 3/23/13


Notice Jerry's confusion with 'parousia': for Mt.24:3, 'of your return (parousia)', then regarding 2Thess.2:8, 'of His coming (parousia)'. In one verse Jerry believes 'parousia' means 'return', in another its 'coming'. No wonder Jerry didn't want to tell us his understanding of 'parousia' because he hasn't got a clue!

By what authority does Jerry claim 'parousia' mean 'return'? The verb 'hupostrpho' is the closest verb meaning 'return', and it is nowhere in Matthew 24. 'PAROUSIA' never has the meaning 'return'. Which translation uses 'return' at Matthew 24:3!?

It is clear Jerry uses different words for 'parousia' as and when it fits his belief. However, JW's (NWT) consistently use PRESENCE whenever 'parousia' is found.
---David8318 on 3/23/13




David: Mat 24 results from Jesus' disciples' reaction to His statement about the destruction of the Temple. They ask When will you return, and what will be the sign (v.3) of your return (parousia) and of the end of the world? This is the advent that all Adventists believe in.

Jesus then gives definite signs to look for just before He returns. He then jumps to the future time when He appears (v.30) in the clouds with great fanfare and the righteous dead are resurrected (v.31).

Notes: Jesus was not visible in v.3 because His return was still future (signs had not yet come) = no invisible return. The tribes of earth mourn (v.30) because they are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (parousia) (2Th 2:8).

---jerry6593 on 3/23/13


Jerry is within his rights to disagree with my conclusions. Needless to say, I disagree with his conclusion that it does not matter which word is used, either 'presence' (parousia) or 'coming' (erkomenon).

Perhaps Jerry does not know the difference between 'presence' and 'coming'? He believes they can both be used and still mean the same thing. I disagree. If someone is present, we could say they've arrived. If someone is coming, their arrival is yet future. This is what I believe Matthew 24 is telling us.

Jesus' 'presence' precedes his 'coming'. His presence- Mt.24:3 (parousia)- is identified not by him being visibile, but by 'signs' (24:6-14). However, the manner of his 'coming' is visible (24:29-31).
---David8318 on 3/21/13


David,

I have indeed looked at the two greek words you are so enamoured with, but do not agree with your conclusion. No matter which word is used (and we also use more than one word for the same thing in English), the subject and the context is the same throughout Mat 24, Namely, the VISIBLE return of Jesus in the clouds.

Now, please produce your coroborating texts, if any.



---jerry6593 on 3/21/13


Most Bibles give the same meaning to 'parousia' (Mt.24:3) and 'erkomenon' (Mt.24:30)- ie. 'coming'. But are they the same? I believe not.

For example, KJV uses 'coming' at Mt.24:3 but at Phil.2:12 where 'parousia' is again found, KJV uses the word 'presence'. This is 1 instance where 'parousia' is inconsistently translated.

The verb 'erkomai' is always translated 'come' or 'coming'- Mt.24:30. But at Mt.24:3,27,37,39, Matthew used the word 'parousia'. Vines under 'parousia': 'a presence: 'para', with, and 'ousia', being... denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.'

Thus, I believe Jesus is 'present' prior his 'coming'. His 'presence' begins(Mt.24:3) & concludes with his 'coming' (Mt.24:30).
---David8318 on 3/20/13


I'm sorry but surely you must believe it is important to understand the meaning of words to comprehend what is being conveyed!?. Do you not think that perhaps... just maybe those 2 different words also have different meanings?

That's all I'm asking is for your understanding of those Greek words. Yes they are used to describe the same event, an event which has a beginning and an end. When we have established their meanings we can then build on coroborating texts- of which there are many.

We haven't got as far as building the case with coroborating texts yet because you are evading my requests to tell us your understanding of the words 'parousia' and 'erkomenon', which directly bear on the issue raised in this blog.
---David8318 on 3/20/13


David,

I still don't understand your insistence as to why two different words describing the same event are so important. Please enlighten me.

If you can't find corroborating texts elsewhere in the Bible and build a logical case, you run the risk of appearing fanatical.


---jerry6593 on 3/20/13


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Jerry6593, I agree they describe the same event- ie.'the Last Days' (Mt.24:3). But that's not the issue. You have not explained your understanding of those Greek words which are important in understanding Matthew 24 in the context they are used.

I don't base my belief on a single word. I've highlighted 2 words which are important to the issue on this blog. There are many others but 'parousia' and 'erkomenon' are the 2 that some, like yourself take issue with JW's but who are not prepared to understand their meaning and yet have the gall to criticise JW's who have understood the difference between the 2!

It seems Jerry you don't want to understand their meanings for fear of upsetting long held belief's. Now that's fanatcism!
---David83818 on 3/19/13


'JESUS came to secretly set up his Kingdom'- Samuelbb7.

What books are you referring to? JW's don't believe Jesus' coming will be secret. Afterall, it's there written in the Bible. So how can it be a secret?

JW's do not believe Jesus "came" in 1914 as described in Matthew 24:30.

There are 2 Greek words used in Matthew 24 (which Jerry struggles with) and have a direct bearing on this issue. They are 'parousia' (Mt.24:3) and 'erkomenon' (Mt.24:30). Can you tell us your understanding?

So far, Jerry has avoided telling us how he translates these words. Rather than trying to understand what they mean, he seems more interested in ridiculing those who do try to understand. I hope you are above is obtuseness.
---David8318 on 3/19/13


David,

I fail to see your point in your meticulous parsing of the Greek in Mat 24. Yes they are different words, but by context they are describing the same event as is the entirety of Mat 24. It is always dangerous to base your beliefs on a single word or even on a single verse. Find corroborating texts elsewhere in the Bible and build a logical case, or run the risk of appearing fanatical.


---jerry6593 on 3/19/13


I have books and JW's have told me times that JESUS came to secretly set up his Kingdom in 1914. One of their reason their halls are called Kingdom Halls.

They also teach that you do not have to be Born Again to live on the New Earth only their leaders are Born Again and they alone can partake of communion.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/13


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Jerry6593- I believe you have not read my last post. JW's do not believe Jesus' coming will be a secret, and its effect will not be invisible. I agree with you secrecy serves no purpose. JW's have been misrepresented by the blog question.

I see you have not addressed the Greek words used on this matter- 'parousia' (Mt.24:3) and 'erkomenon' (Mt.24:30). Do you believe they have different meanings? What is your understanding of these words?

With respect, its not about making the scriptures 'say what you want them to say'. Rather it is about what the scriptures do say on the matter. Perhaps had you taken the time to establish an understanding of the words used you may be more informed and less judgmental of JW's.
---David8318 on 3/18/13


john 20:26 And after 8 days his diciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace be unto you. sounds like Jesus just walked thru the walls and door being they were shut.
---shira4368 on 3/18/13


David,

With all due respect, I think you go to great lengths to make the scriptures say what you want them to say. The context of Mat 24 is the VISIBLE second coming of Christ throughout, and His admonition for us to be prepared for His advent. There is no hint anywhere in scripture of a secret or invisible return of Christ. What purpose would it serve? We have the promise of Jesus that:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.



---jerry6593 on 3/18/13


David, your preaching false doctrine. When Jesus returns at the Second Coming people will see Him. In (John 14:19) Jesus was telling them He was leaving, they would not see Him anymore. You cannot see someone who is gone. But His return would be visible we are told,
"Now when He had spoken these things, "while they watched," He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, "will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven"
---Mark_V. on 3/18/13


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Jerry6593- JW's do not believe the effect of Jesus' coming as described in the verses you cite will be invisible or secret.

Jesus said, 'sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man "erkomenon"'- Mt.24:30 (NIV).

Jesus also spoke about his "parousia" (Mt.24:3) Do you know the difference between his 'erkomenon' and his 'parousia'? Do they have different meanings?

JW's and other careful translators know the difference.

The understanding of these words must also agree with Jesus' statement, 'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...'- Jo.14:19 (NIV).
---David8318 on 3/16/13


When Jesus comes, it will be like this:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Doesn't sound very "invisible" or "secret" to me!
---jerry6593 on 3/13/13


There would be no need for Jesus to come invisibly when the Holy Spirit is already here invisibly. From the fulfillment of the Jewish feast of Pentecost (the moed of Shavuot) recorded in Acts 2.

Jesus is in heaven carrying out his ministry, standing representatively before God in our behalf (intercession). While the Holy Spirit works representatively in our behalf on the earth. (fellowship with the Father)
---jan4378 on 3/10/13


Oh, I don't know. It's a false religion!
---pat on 12/5/12


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David, I haven't talked bad about you, why do you resort to that? I see what really is in your heart, and it is not the Spirit of Christ. You want to discuss concerning the word of God and Jesus coming visibly, bring your sword, not your mouth.
Why not answer the question put to you? Here let me write it for you:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, (now hear this) "and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30-31)
Is that visible enough for you?
---Mark_V. on 12/4/12


MarkV twists and turns in his attempt to avoid clear scriptural truth spoken by Jesus Christ.

"Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live" Jo.14:19 (NIV).

MarkV says, "John 14:19 was referring to His resurrection only". Only? That's not only the case as can be seen in John 14:19. MarkV blanks out the whole of Jesus' statement and struggles with the truth that 'the world will not see Jesus anymore'. The disciples would, but the world would not.

MarkV is swayed not by scripture, but by years of indoctrination into beliefs that run contrary to what Jesus taught. MarkV obviously believes the world will see Jesus again. That's not what Jesus taught.
---David8318 on 12/3/12


Bible prophecies indicate the Messianic Kingdom began ruling in heaven from 1914. The first act of the Messianic Kingdom was to cast Satan out of heaven- Rev.12:9.

---David8318 on 12/2/12

Eagerly waiting for those so call Bible prophecies (scripture verses) that point to the year 1914, correct me if I am wrong, isn't 1914 also when Satan was thrown to earth?
---Ruben on 12/3/12


David, the passage in John 14:19) was referring to His resurrection only, that the world would not see Him, and the reason we know that is because His Second coming won't be a secret. You are passing wrong information. Jesus warned us about those who would try to deceive the elect, when He returns it will not be a secret return, no one will miss it. Far from being a secret event, Jesus Himself compares His return to the brilliant flashing of electrically charged bolts of lightning hurling across the sky from the east to the west. The same word "Parousia" applies to the highly visible second coming of Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/3/12


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MarkV- I'm not disputing the fact the disciples saw Jesus after his resurrection.

I'm pointing out the fact that Jesus said 'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...'- Jo.14:19 (NIV). This part of the verse is clearly something you struggle to come to terms with. I agree his disciples saw him after his resurrection and those resurrected to heaven will see him again.

But no so for 'the world'. As Jesus plainly said, 'the world will not see me anymore'.

For this reason, together with Paul's teaching at 1 Tim.6:16 and the Bible teaching of Jesus' "presence" ('parousia'- Mt.24:3), JW's believe Jesus' presence and eventual 'coming' will not be visible to human eyes- Rev.1:7, 22:20.
---David8318 on 12/2/12


Ruben- yes, no one knows 'the day or the hour' when the 'sign of the Son of Man' appears, and Armageddon.

JW's do not believe Jesus 2nd coming occurred in 1914. Bible prophecies indicate the Messianic Kingdom began ruling in heaven from 1914. The first act of the Messianic Kingdom was to cast Satan out of heaven- Rev.12:9.

At Matt.24:3 the disciples asked, 'what will be the sign of your "parousia".' (Mt.24:3). Liddell and Scott translate 'parousia' as 'presence'. At Matt.24:30 where Jesus 'comes with power and great glory', the Greek word 'erkomenon' is used. Most translators use 'coming' for both 'parousia' and 'erkomenon'. Careful translators and JW's understand the difference between Jesus' 'presence' and his 'coming'.
---David8318 on 12/2/12


Mark V, it's like this, Cluny was nit-picking about inside/outside insisting that although the court is outside,it's in the temple!He will never ,in this lifetime, admit he's ever wrong!
We were talking "preaching" not teaching!
---1st_cliff on 12/2/12


Mark V, The only difference between me and them is that I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and they haven't!
They have not chosen everlasting life (Jn.3.16) and I have!
There's no secret society,whispers in the ear, funny feelings up and down the spine etc. We read the very same words,the difference being that imagination takes over and the words have another meaning.
That's the reason we have so many "denominations" everyone puts their own "spin" on it!
---1st_cliff on 12/2/12


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1Cliff, I did not make the distinction between them and us. God did in ( Gen 3:15). The children of wrath who are the children of Satan, and the Children of God who are the children of Christ. The "us" is the children of Christ, "them" the others, are the children of the world. It is in Scripture if you only believed Scripture. But you need spiritual insight to believe it. I cannot help you there.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/12


Mark V, This is yet another invention of yours: The difference between believers and the world!
Jn.3.16 God so loved the world..." (kosmos) same word.
Just like all the other scriptures, you "fix" it to match your theology!
Your whole belief system is based on "us and them" like the other "holier than thou" preachers!
---1st_cliff on 12/1/12


David, your refuse to believe what the Bible says. It says that the world would not see Him anymore. Do you even understand what "anymore" means? It means no longer, at the present time, because He was going to die, and when He rose from the dead, the world did not see Him, only the believers did. They did see Him, you just missed the whole story. In (John 20:19-29) we read where the disciples saw Him. Thomas was not present and when told, he said he had to touch Him in order for him to believe it was Jesus, (v. 20:27) tells us where Thomas did see Him and touched Him and believed. Later in (1 Cor. 15:1-9) in (v. 15:6) we are told He was seen by over five Hundred brethren at once, later even by Paul after Christ had ascended.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/12


At Matt.24:29, Jesus says the 'sign of the Son of Man' would appear 'after the tribulation of those days'. JW's believe the Gt.Trib. is still future, thus the 'sign of the Son of Man' is a future event and is the culmination of Jesus invisible 'presence' which began in 1914.
---David8318 on 11/30/12

David,

But yet Jeus himself said:

"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows."
---Ruben on 11/30/12


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MarkV- you can argue all day long about when and who saw Jesus after his resurrection. The faithful disciples would see Jesus after his resurrection and when they themselves are resurrected to heaven.

But the fact remains, as Jesus stated at John 14:19, 'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...' (NIV).

You state 'the passage in John was speaking about his return from the dead'. Not entirely. You have difficulty coming to terms with the fact that Jesus said the 'world will not see me anymore'. Which part of 'anymore' do you not understand?

Yes I agree his disciples would see him again. That's indisputable. But 'the world' would not. The 'world' cannot see him and "will not see Jesus anymore".
---David8318 on 11/30/12


'JESUS warned against this secret coming teaching'- samuelbb7.

I agree, no where does scripture say Jesus' coming would be secret. But where in Matt.24 does Jesus give such a warning?

Matt.24:30 tells us 'the sign of the Son of Man would appear', further evidence Jesus return would be invisible. Don't need a 'sign' if he is visible to all. This 'sign' is different to the 'sign of his presence' (gr: 'parousia') the disciples asked about at Matt.24:3.

At Matt.24:29, Jesus says the 'sign of the Son of Man' would appear 'after the tribulation of those days'. JW's believe the Gt.Trib. is still future, thus the 'sign of the Son of Man' is a future event and is the culmination of Jesus invisible 'presence' which began in 1914.
---David8318 on 11/30/12


Jason9835- none of the verses you cite contradict the belief Jesus' return is invisible. However, the visible return belief contradicts Jesus & Paul at Jo.14:19 & 1Tim.6:16.

You say I'm grasping at straws. Yet the verses you cite do not specifically say Jesus return is visible. Please explain how Rev.5:11 has any bearing on Jesus' visible return?

Rev.1:7 states Jesus' will come 'with the clouds'. At Exodus 19:9, God told Moses he would 'come in dark cloud'. That cloud indicted God's invisible presence- Moses did not visibly see God, if he had he would've died- Ex.33:20. Likewise, Jesus will also 'come with the clouds' of invisibility.

Jesus' coming will be "audible and he won't be alone"- I agree!
---David8318 on 11/30/12


David, the passage in John was speaking about his return from the dead. The world of unbelievers would not see Him, only believers saw Him. Believers in the world at His resurrection. In the Second Coming the world will see Him then. More then enough Scriptures have been given to you. He will be very much visible.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/12


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Those are great verses, Samuel!

David, you're grasping at straws. You need to look at all the texts. There are way too many verses that show your interpretation is flawed. His 2nd coming will be visible and audible and he won't be alone: Matt 24:26-31, 25:31, Luke 9:26, John 14:3, Acts 1:11, 1Thes 4:16, 2Thes 1:7, Rev 1:7, 5:11, 22:12. There are many more.
---jason9835 on 11/29/12


Mat 24:26- 31 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert, go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers, believe [it] not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

JESUS warned against this secret coming teaching.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/29/12


David, you are at the resurrection of the dead. Hello, you are so far off. Jesus rose back from the dead after He was crucified. In the flesh, and appeared only to believers. I gave you the passages. I am not referring to the Second Coming. You are so far off. I was talking about His resurrection, not the resurrection of the dead when He returns, His second coming. When He talked to the diciples in John, He had not been crucified.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/12


\\The fact that 'the world will not see [Jesus] anymore'- Jo.14:19, supports the reasoning why Jesus gave his disciples a 'sign' to indicate his invisible return.\\

Wrong again, David.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

John 14 refers to His disciples' not seeing Him after His Ascension.

Jesus revealed to St. John is very VISIBLE return. Who's right: you or the Bible?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/12


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The fact that 'the world will not see [Jesus] anymore'- Jo.14:19, supports the reasoning why Jesus gave his disciples a 'sign' to indicate his invisible return.

The disciples asked, 'what will be the sign of your coming' Matt.24:3 (NIV). The Greek word used here is 'parousia', which NIV translates as 'coming'.

However, 'Vines' Dictionary says: 'PAROUSIA, lit, a presence, 'para', with, and 'ousia', being (from eimi, to be), denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.'

Other lexicons explain 'parousia' denotes the visit of a ruler. Hence, it is not just the moment of arrival, but a presence extending from the arrival onward.

Thus a more accurate rendering Matt.24:3, 'what will be the sign of your presence'.
---David8318 on 11/28/12


MarkV, it remains a fact- Jesus did not qualify 'world' in his statement at John 14:19, 'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...' (NIV). Jesus' statement remains a fact- the world can't see Jesus. He is now in heaven. Jesus' word will remain true- 'the world will not see me anymore'.

Your erroneous presumption that Jesus will return again in the flesh forces you to twist the meaning of what Jesus meant. His faithful disciples would see him yes, but 'the world' in general would not see him "anymore".

You can't accept that statement- your false indoctrination must take precedence over Jesus' plain statement of fact.
---David8318 on 11/28/12


David, Jesus was very much visible in the flesh to all believers who saw Him. They saw Him, touched Him, yet He never made Himself visible to the world at large, the lost. Not that He remained invisible on purpose, but He never presented Himself to them in the flesh. Your argument does not hold ground.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/12


Danny Haszard

Poor Danny Haszard. A long-time, disgruntled, apostate, removed years ago from Jehovah's Witnesses organization for conduct unbecoming of a Christian.

His misinformed rantings can be found splattered all over the internet and, interestingly, usually attached to links regarding his law suit against Eli Lilly, makers of Zyprexa that (by Danny's own online account) he sadly has been prescribed for many years. (A simple Google search will tell you what it's prescribed for).
---scott on 11/27/12


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cliff, you ask me what I believe. I believe the king james bible is the true authority of God breathed text. man has changed the whole meaning in the perverted versions. this blog has been at the top of controversey since I joined christianet almost 10 yrs ago. you just use your version and I'll stick with the old stuff. it works everytime.
---shira4368 on 11/27/12


David 2: you did not understand that passage because you were thinking in the flesh, worldly. And none who are of the world saw Him. That is why you could not see the Truth of that passage and neither your brothers from the Watchtower. They also looked for passages that could speak against the Christian faith, not to find the Truth but to find some place where it look like they were right, and missed the revealed word of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/12


"The world of the lost (unbelievers) did not see Him after He rose."- MarkV.

Precisely! That's why Jesus stated, 'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...'- Jo.14:19 (NIV).

That's why JW's believe Jesus' return would not be visible to human eyes. If everyone (including unbelievers) could see Jesus physically in the flesh again it would contradict what Jesus stated at Jo.14:19 and Paul at 1 Tim.6:16.

At John 14:19 Jesus did not qualify the word 'world' here to be any specific group of people. 'For God loved the world so much...' he gave his son- Jo.3:16. This includes both believers and none.

If you're hung up about context MarkV, where in Jo.14:19 does Jesus say the 'world of non-believers'?
---David8318 on 11/27/12


Cluny,Textus Receptus emerged 17th century.
#1 The oldest mss were not necessarily carefully written.
#2 The oldest mss were not necessarily copied from oldest mss master.
#3 The oldest mss were subject to greatest corruption
#4The oldest mss were in perpetual disagreement with each other!
There are no "original" mss.
Deep study of bible translations is one of "pick and choose" None are "perfect"!
Which is better,Textus Receptus or Wescott and Hort?? Perpetual argument!
---1st_cliff on 11/27/12


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Haszard- you're guessing badly.
---David8318 on 11/26/12

One should never hazard a guess.
---Phil on 11/26/12


\\In 1611 CE the earliest mss they had were 14th century.
Today there some dating back to 2nd century (albeit mostly fragments)
Which do you think is most accurate??\\

I'll give you a hint: The Orthodox Church uses the Textus Receptus of the NT, and LXX of the OT.

What does that tell you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/27/12


David, when you read a passage, at least give the context, because in order to proof against Jesus returning in the flesh you give,

"'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...'- Jo.14:19 (NIV)."

He said "the world will not see me anymore" This is very true. There is no record that any unbeliever saw Him after He rose. If you read ( 1 Cor. 15:1-9) you will notice that all who saw Him were believers. The world of the lost (unbelievers) did not see Him after He rose. So His statement is very true, the world did not see Him anymore. The world including believers saw Him the first time before His resurrection. But only believers saw Him after His resurrection.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/12


Shira, Why are you touting the King James version.
Are you also in a time warp?
Horse and buggy days are long gone (unless you're Amish)
In 1611 CE the earliest mss they had were 14th century.
Today there some dating back to 2nd century (albeit mostly fragments)
Which do you think is most accurate??
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


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Strongaxe, your points 1,2 & 3, I agree. I already told you JW's believe Jesus "returned" invisibly in 1914.

This view does not contradict what Jesus said. Jesus told his disciples:

'Before long, the world will not see me anymore...'- Jo.14:19 (NIV).

Paul said regarding Jesus, 'who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see'- 1 Tim.6:16 (NIV).

It is your understanding of Rev.1:7 that contradict Jesus' words and also Pauls, not JW's.

JW's don't contradict Jesus' words. Jesus 'coming' is seen in the sense of being discerned. His "presence" (Gr. 'parousia', Mt.24:3) is discerned.
---David8318 on 11/26/12


David8318:

Regardless of how one rationalizes what JW's believed before and after 1914, one cannot dispute these facts:

1) JWs believed that Jesus would return in 1914
2) They still today believe that he returned in 1914
3) Jesus did not, in fact, return visibly in 1914

Therefore, JWs must believe that Jesus returned invisibly, in direct contradiction to what Jesus actually said about his own return (i.e. that all eyes would see him, like lightning that strikes from one side of the sky to the other).
---StrongAxe on 11/26/12


david 8318, r u for real here? do you honestly believe other faiths are crossing over to jw's? jw's are cults. get you a king james bible and read it and you will know the truth.
---shira4368 on 11/26/12


David, I heard and believed that 25 years ago,when they showed the "photo drama" picturing a church with a "for sale" sign on it!
Actually in my city,one Orthodox,one United,3 Pentecostal, 2 Breathern,2 Independent Churches have been built,while the same Kingdom Hall has stagnated!
How many original "little flock"(Remnant) still take the "emblems" at Memorial? They would have to be at least 110 years old!
Face it David ,they're in a "time warp" no longer credible!
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


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'Major failed teaching means Watchtower game over'- D Haszard.

Reports of the Watchtower's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Sorry to burst your bubble Haszard but the Watchtower is growing from strength to strength. The Watchtower magazine is now the most widely distributed religious magazine on the planet.

100,000's of people are leaving apostate trinitarian sects & false religion in general and are flocking to Jehovah's organisation every year.

Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing to do with SDA's, never have done. Neither do they have roots in William Miller. JW's were critical of SDA's and W.Miller for their erroneous predictions of the 1800's.

Haszard- you're guessing badly.
---David8318 on 11/26/12


Luke 17:21-24 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
And they shall say to you, See here, or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
---J_Marc on 11/26/12


//The JW problem is the same of that in Protestantism, sects developing from departure from Paul's teachings to embrace Kingdom Theology.
---Phil on 11/25/12//
Absolutely correct.
So many today trying to follow Jesus in His earthly ministry.
---michael_e on 11/26/12


Phil, you said something that is no true at all,

"The JW problem is the same of that in Protestantism, sects developing from departure from Paul's teachings to embrace Kingdom theology"

You are wrong. Their problem is they believe in another Jesus, not the one from Scripture. Protestants believe in the Christ of Scripture who is God. Paul had nothing to do with them believing in another Jesus, one equal to Satan. Their New World Translation removed a lot of passages from the original writting concerning Jesus, sort of what you do with many words from Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 11/26/12


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The origin of all Watchtower teachings that makes them unique over all other religions is their creed of Jesus second coming 'invisibly' in the year 1914.

Why?
Jehovah's Witnesses have roots with the Seventh Day Adventist, they both have common origin in the William Miller apocalyptic movement of the 18th century.
Of course here in 2009 it is quite a stretch to proclaim Jesus advent in 1914 then try to explain "invisible" emperor's new clothes fashion, why everything is all still messed up in the world.

So often the JW revisionist apologist will play the blame game and say 1914 second coming is an invention of ' disgruntled apostates'.
Major failed teaching means Watchtower game over.
--
Danny Haszard
---Danny_Haszard on 11/26/12


Cluny, I dunno, I guess I get a little carried away and argumentive sometimes,but you're a forgving fella.I'll try to stick with the subject!
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


JWs refer to me as "apostate" but their religion is made up of apostates,Catholics,Protestants etc,persons who left their former faith to become one of them!
Holding firmly and publishing the belief that those of understanding age alive between 1914-1918 would see armageddon.
They are now all dead. A blatent false prophecy that they dimiss with "Oh, the light is brigher now" (this covers all false prophecies)
2 brothers a son and daughter who still shun me,fearful of learning the truth!(fearful of the "Society")
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


Sure,I still believe many of the JW doctrines, as Protestants still hold catholic doctrine.
Besides false prophecies I resent the total mind control the Society holds over its members.
Even though the bible does not forbid it,you cannot "vote"in municipal elections (but by a show of hands they will vote on wheater or not to pave their parking lots) or celebrate a birthday,Thanksgiving, Mother's day,Father's day,New Years day,National holidays Children cannot compete in sports,join Scouts etc.....Total "control"
---1st_cliff on 11/26/12


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Strongaxe- your comments regarding Jehovah's Witnesses view of 1914 are misleading.

You state, 'The Jehovah's Witnesses try to get away with this by saying he came "invisibly".'

This is not true. JW's always believed Jesus would 'come invisibly' in Kingdom power in 1914. What JW's believed in the years prior to 1914 was that both the beginning of Christ's invisible presence in Kingdom power in heaven, and the calling of 'the faithful' to heaven would occur at the same time. Whatever was to occur, JW's were awake and watching for what would happen in 1914.

Jehovah's Witnesses strongly believe based on prophecies in Daniel 4 and Rev.12, that God's Messianic Kingdom began ruling 1914, ousting Satan from heaven.
---David8318 on 11/25/12


While not a fan of JW's, I have studied their past. The founder of the International Bible Students Association, was a sincere and faithful man of God.

His teaching were to be tested, he told them. And if not in the word they were to be rejected for personal faith, warning against the evils of sectarianism.

This his followers failed to do after his death. It morphed into what it is today, deceived by many forces within.

Paul was ever mindful of the Lord's coming, as we should be as well. But the extremist elements always go overboard beyond sanity, and depart from the Word of God.

The JW problem is the same of that in Protestantism, sects developing from departure from Paul's teachings to embrace Kingdom
Theology.
---Phil on 11/25/12


1stCliff, why did you bring up an issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of this thread?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/25/12


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