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Armageddon 1975 Prediction

How did Jehovahs Witnesses announce the Armageddon 1975 prediction?
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Danny Haszard (been there)

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Scott,

Re 'Theological House of cards, I admit nada..but just in case a law suit arrives at my door, what would you consider a fair price for me to liberally use this expression for the rest of my life?
---Marc on 1/1/13


"Worship"...yet again"- Ruben


Why did Wycliff say to "Worship thy father and mother..." (Matt 19:19)
---scott on 12/21/12

How in scripture does it show to worship God/Jehova?

MT " All these I shall give to you, if you fell down and worship me" 4:9-10

" The four living creatures answered, AMEN, and the elders fell down and worshiped" (Rev 6:14)

And they did the same thing to Jesus:

"And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him :"(Matt 2:2)

"Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him ."
---Ruben on 12/31/12


Scott, it was hard for you to admit wasn't it? It is a shame you and others have to come up with all sorts of excuses. You know this would not be so crucial if it wasn't about Jesus Christ. The Lord of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things. And you and others refuse to worship Him as Lord. What a pity.
I believe Christians have taken many bad habits from your religion. They insist Jesus is knocking at the door and all He wants is to come in, and people will not let Him. Sort of like the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, knocking at the door so the people can hear them, and they close the door on them.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/12


"Changing the meaning of the word worship is wrong."- Mark_V

Fair enough. Then it would be appropriate to stick with the original meaning of the word right? The biblical one. And not the narrow meaning that is attached to it today. I agree with you.

And the original meaning is:

"Profound reverence...prostration to do homage...or make obeisance..to express respect or...supplication...used of homage shown to men...to the Jewish high priest, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons."

The rest of your comments are very Jabberwockyess...really non-sensical.

"Twas brillig, and the slithy toves, Did gyre and gimble in the wabe, All mimsy were the borogoves...
---scott on 12/22/12


Scott, you know changing the meaning of the word worship is wrong. If you knew it was correct your New World Translation would have changed the word honor to worship and worship to honor. But Exodus was not changed, Eph 6:2 was not change, Matthew 15:4 was not changed either. The writers of the charter knew what you knew now. Yet they included worship Jesus Christ. If you are going to argue for the word honor to be change to worship, just because you don't like the words worship Jesus Christ by your own charter members, then your whole Bible, religion, and doctrines are false. Just admit that the charter members knew what worship meant and wanted the members to worship the Lord Jesus Christ just as they were to worship God. Stop dancing around.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/12




"Wycliff dictionary"- Mark_V

Dictionary? You mean Bible Translation right?

"Against worshipping Jesus Christ Mark_V

No. As I've stated, with the broad meaning of "Proskuneo/Worship" (noted repeatedly below) I do happily "worship" Jesus.

"No where are we told to worship our parents." Mark_V

"Worship thy father and thy mother..." Matt 19:19, Wycliff's Bible (1384)

"Through that Bible away... Mark_V (Sic)

Wow. Perhaps we should burn his translation as the Church did in the 1300s because it was an English translation that could be read by the common people rather than Latin that very few could read.
---scott on 12/22/12


Scott, you took one translation from Wycliff dictionary and tried to make against worshipping Jesus Christ as your own charter tells you.
We don't worship our parents, beause
no where are we told to worship our parents. Exodus 20:12 The Ten Commandments tells us to honor our father and mother, Eph. 6:2 tells us honor your father and mother. Matthew 15:4 the same. I don't have the Wycliff Bible but if you find those words in those passages, you might as well through that Bible away, because nowhere are we told to worship anyone other the God, and Jesus is God. You are looking for false interpretations to support you false doctrines.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/12


"Worship"...yet again"- Ruben

"And all the congregation...bowed down their heads, and worshipped (proskuneo) the LORD, and the king." 1 Chronicles 29:20 (KJV)

What is the difference between the "worship" given to David and to God in this verse?

Rev 3:9 (KJV, NKJV, ASV)- How are Christians "worshipped"?

Why did Wycliff say to "Worship thy father and mother..." (Matt 19:19)
---scott on 12/21/12


Scott,

I don't understand your point re Billy Graham's and the others' Vs JWs' end time predictions. Because both got it wrong should we believe or disbelieve any other prophetic utterances? You can't have it both ways: either Billy Graham et al and the JWs got it wrong and so we don't trust either OR either can claim God's prophetic order, get the predictions wrong but it doesn't matter because people should follow them regardless of error?

BTW, why should I become a JW? What makes the JW closer to God than a non-JW Christian?
---Marc on 12/21/12


"And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted." DBY

"When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted." HNV

"They saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted." Weymouth NT



John 9:38-

"And he said, `I believe, sir,' and bowed before him." YLT

"And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage." DBY

"I believe, Sir," he said. And he threw himself at His feet." Weymouth NT
---scott on 12/20/12

These verses show more that just mere repect,courtesy.
They are not just knotting their heads or tipping their hats.
---Ruben on 12/21/12




Matthew 28:17-

"And having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver." YLT

John 9:38-

"And he said, `I believe, sir,' and bowed before him." YLT

---scott on 12/20/12


"fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages," Rev 4:10 YLT

"and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me." Matt 4:9 YLT
---Ruben on 12/21/12


"Worship" Ruben

Matthew 14:3?


Matthew 28:17-

"And having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver." YLT

"And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted." DBY

"When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted." HNV

"They saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted." Weymouth NT



John 9:38-

"And he said, `I believe, sir,' and bowed before him." YLT

"And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage." DBY

"I believe, Sir," he said. And he threw himself at His feet." Weymouth NT
---scott on 12/20/12


"Worship" Ruben

As mentioned previously the English word "worship" is translated from the Greek word Proskuneo.

Strong's Concordance:

"Profound reverence...prostration to do homage...or make obeisance..to express respect or...supplication...used of homage shown to men...to the Jewish high priest, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons."

Hebrew "sha-chah" is similar.

Moses directs this to his father-in-law. (Ex. 18:7)

David was worshipped along with God. (1 Chron 29:20, KJV)

Even victorious Christians are "worshipped". (Rev 3:9, KJV, NKJV, ASV)

Wycliff said to "Worship thy father and thy mother..." Matt 19:19
---scott on 12/20/12


You may chose to attach the same meaning when it's directed to Jehovah and Jesus as opposed to David, etc.,
---scott on 12/19/12

Granted there are scriptures verses that applied to Jesus the same way as David, however some applied to Jesus as does Jehova!

In Matt 4:4 Satan said " All these things will I give You, if you fall down and worship me ." And of course you remember what Jesus said!

"And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him :"(Matt 2:2)

"Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him ." (Matt 28:9)--CONT
---Ruben on 12/20/12


You may chose to attach the same meaning when it's directed to Jehovah and Jesus as opposed to David, etc., however the word itself carries no such implicit distinction.
---scott on 12/19/12

CONT:

In Acts 10:25 " And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him ."

In Rev 19:10/22:8 "And I fell at his feet to worship him ."

In both cases they were reprimanded. Why?

Because they both fell down , remember Satan words in MT 4:9 "All these things will I give You, if You fall down and worship me. CONT-
---Ruben on 12/20/12


chose to attach the same meaning when it's directed to Jehovah and Jesus
---scott on 12/19/12

Scott,

Matthew 14:3 " And those who were in the boat worshipped Him saying," You are certainly Gods Son!"

Matthew 28:17 it says," And when they saw Him, [the risen Jesus Christ whom they knew had been dead and was now alive] they worshipped Him."

Finallly in JHN 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

These verses show more that just mere repect,courtesy.
They are not just knotting their heads or tipping their hats.

Their is more than enough evidence that shows Jesus received the kind of (proskuneo/ worship) that God alone was only to received!
---Ruben on 12/20/12


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"Worship...again-" Mark_V

Of course none of what you've said in your recent post is true.

But then again, as you've demonstrated below (with ample opportunity to prove me wrong), you are challenged with the ability and humility to tell the truth and you've been exposed as someone who will lie to further his strange theology and criticism of others..

Why should your comments on this subject (or any for that matter) be viewed with any credibility since truthfulness is absent from your long-winded rantings?
---scott on 12/20/12


Scott, the minute I put down what your charter says about worshipping God and Jesus Christ, you suddenly wanted to change the word worship to something else only for Jesus Christ, but not for God. The members of your religion did not think it was important to define worship. If they knew they didn't worship Jesus Christ, they would have never put it down.
In Scripture when the word worship is used, it depends on the context of each passage. The members of your charter did not find it important until the Witnesses in later years decided they didn't worship Jesus Christ. Either your members are very dumb and don't know what they are doing, or you are not following your own charter.
You change the rules whenever you want.
---Mark_V. on 12/20/12


"To put Jesus with men..." Ruben

I never "put Jesus with men", rather you've put words in my mouth. Have you read the posts below? The topic is the definition of "worship".

What does it mean that David was "worshipped" along with God? 1 Chron 29:20 (KJV)

Why did Wycliff translate Matt 19:19: "Worship thy father and thy mother"?

Does "worship" [Gk- prokuneo] mean the very same thing when applied to different individuals in the bible (whether in the NWT, KJV or otherwise)?

You may chose to attach the same meaning when it's directed to Jehovah and Jesus as opposed to David, etc., however the word itself carries no such implicit distinction.
---scott on 12/19/12


Scott,

I don't understand your point re Billy Graham's and the others' Vs JWs' end time predictions. Because both got it wrong should we believe or disbelieve any other prophetic utterances? You can't have it both ways: either Billy Graham et al and the JWs got it wrong and so we don't trust either OR either can claim God's prophetic order, get the predictions wrong but it doesn't matter because people should follow them regardless of error?

BTW, why should I become a JW? What makes the JW closer to God than a non-JW Christian?
---Marc on 12/19/12


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scott * to the deep expression of adoration only deserving of the Almighty God.

But to put Jesus with men makes no sense:

To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever. And the four living creatures went saying: Amen! and the elders fell down and worshiped." (Rev 5:13-14)

"For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior...the name that is above every [other] name,so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,11and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." ( Phil 2:911)

Both of NWT!
---Ruben on 12/19/12


Scott, you did a lot of dancing with the word "worship." You say,
"Mark_V asks: Do I worship God? Of course."
So my question Is:
is the answer yes based on the broad application of the word until recent years? In other words do you worship God the same way you worship Jesus Christ, your mother and father?
Because then you said:
" Do I worship (and do all Witnesses) worship Jesus, the answer is yes, based on the broad application of the word...until recent years." Do you worship God the same as Jesus Christ, mother and father?
---Mark_V. on 12/19/12


"Are you saying that worship to Jehova, Jesus, and your parents are the same?" Ruben

Certainly not.

The biblical Gk word "Proskuneo" (worship) carries a broad range of meaning, from basic honor and respect directed toward men, to the deep expression of adoration only deserving of the Almighty God.

Mark_V simply ignores that range of meaning in God's word that is (generally) absent in the narrow understanding and usage of the word "worship" today.

Context (and perhaps common sense) would tell us that "worship" directed toward King David, etc., was clearly not the same as "worship" that is/was directed toward God.
---scott on 12/18/12


"Call me whatever you want" Mark_V

You have demonstrated your dishonesty all on your own. You've revealed this in what you posted below and I simply brought it to the attention of others.

If I'm mistaken, prove me wrong and you will have a heartfelt apology.

"Worship"- Mark_V

"And all the congregation...bowed down their heads, and worshipped (proskuneo) the LORD, and the king." 1 Chronicles 29:20 (KJV)

What is the difference between the "worship" given to David and to God in this verse?

Rev 3:9 (KJV, NKJV, ASV)- How are Christians "worshipped"?

Why did Wycliff say to "Worship thy father and mother..." (Matt 19:19)
---scott on 12/18/12


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scott *: Do I worship God? Of course. Do I worship (and do all Witnesses) worship Jesus, the answer is yes, based on the broad application of the word...until recent years. Do I worship my parents? Yes, based on the original meaning of the word as it applies to anyone deserving of great honor and respect.

Scott,

Can you clarify the above statement for me. Are you saying that worship to Jehova, Jesus, and your parents are the same?


scott * But references to "worshipping" Jesus have years ago been replaced with "obeisance" or in WT literature simply because the broad meaning of "proskuneo" is no longer reflected in the English language.

But why only to Jesus and not to Jehova?
---Ruben on 12/18/12


Scott, first, you can call me whatever you want, you are no different then those other opposers to the Truth. Second, just because Jesus spoke like that to the Pharisees does not give you the right to speak to others the same way. You are not Jesus Christ, but a member of a cult who opposes the deity of Christ, Scripture calls them anti-Christ.
Third, the Jesus Christ you quoted is not the same Jesus you follow. The One from the Bible is God, was, is and always will be. You have another jesus, the brother of Lucifur. The very reason you did not want to answer that you worship Jesus Christ. So you had to do all that double talk about worship, to avoid admitting that the writers of your Jehovah Witness charter wrote to worship Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/12


scott:

Jesus was free of sin, so he was able to throw stones. How many others can say the same? Thus, it is best to avoid name calling, even if one thinks it's deserved - lest somebody else call YOU names that YOU deserve. (Besides, by the Golden Rule, if you call other people names, it means you WANT others to call YOU names).
---StrongAxe on 12/17/12


"Name calling"- Mark_V

Really? DId Jesus "resort to name calling" when he told the Pharisees "You belong to your father, the devil...for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies?" (Jn 8:44)

Your pride keeps you from admitting that you were clearly dishonest. However, It's easy enough for anyone to see (who posed questions first contrary to your false claim) by simply checking the dates on the posts below.

Don't you wish that you could "un-post" or delete what's there for all to see?

You've been exposed....see Jn 8:44 above.
---scott on 12/17/12


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Scott, you are no different those others who rather call names then stand for the Truth. When they cannot answer simple questions, they resort to name calling, making remarks, which only exposes them to who they really are. The Bible tells me, "You will know them by their fruits."
---Mark_V. on 12/17/12


Since Mark_V has such a brilliant mastery of language, perhaps he would find the following Hebrew phrase of interest:

"Shakran, shakran, meeknahsayeem al esh".*



* Translation: "Liar, liar, pants on fire".

= )
---scott on 12/16/12


Scott, do not feel sorry for me. I am blessed more than I deserve. You said,
"But references to "worshipping" Jesus have years ago been replaced with "obeisance" or similar in WT literature simply because the broad meaning of "proskuneo" is no longer reflected in the English language."
Yes, replaced by you guys, Why not replace worship to God? It is the same word for both? I know why, because the witnesses keep changing what they believe. The same trick the RCC did with worshipping idols, turn the word worship around for idols so others will believe the don't get down on their knees and ask for miracles. By the way, I never worship my parents, I respected them and loved them.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/12


"Worship" (1)

Poor Mark_V. Caught in a deliberate lie for all to see (one of the "elect"?) so he gnashes his teeth, spewing misinformation about others to divert attention away from his theological and now moral shortcomings.

In light of Mark_V's lack of honesty, all of his pontificating is valueless because Prov. 6:16-19 tells us that "There are six things that the Lord hates, [two of them are] a lying tongue, and...a false witness who breathes out lies..."

This exchange has demonstrated that Mark_V, who boastfully proclaims to be one of the "elect" is actually (according to Prov. 6:16-19) in hot water with God himself.

A comment on "worship to follow".
---scott on 12/15/12


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"Worship" (2)

The English word "worship" comes from the Greek word Proskuneo.

Strong's Concordance:

"Profound reverence...prostration to do homage...or make obeisance..to express respect or...supplication...used of homage shown to men...to the Jewish high priest, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons."

Hebrew "sha-chah" is similar.

Moses directs this to his father-in-law. (Ex. 18:7)

David was worshipped along with God. (1Chron 29:20, KJV)

Even victorious Christians are "worshipped". (Rev 3:9, KJV, NKJV, ASV)

Wycliff's Translation says to "Worship thy father and thy mother..." Matt 19:19

Continued...
---scott on 12/15/12


"Worship" (3)

The English word now carries a very narrow meaning (does Mark_V "worship" his parents?) but the biblical meaning is unchangeable.

Mark_V asks: Do I worship God? Of course. Do I worship (and do all Witnesses) worship Jesus, the answer is yes, based on the broad application of the word...until recent years. Do I worship my parents? Yes, based on the original meaning of the word as it applies to anyone deserving of great honor and respect.

But references to "worshipping" Jesus have years ago been replaced with "obeisance" or similar in WT literature simply because the broad meaning of "proskuneo" is no longer reflected in the English language.
---scott on 12/15/12


Scott, who do you worship? simple question. Do you worship God?
or do you worship Jesus Christ?
You can do what the RCC members do, if you want, change the word worship if you want. They refuse to say they worship idols, they use the very same trick you guys use.
Were not the witnesses who wrote your charter smart enough in the second language or the meaning of words? To know there were many meanings as you say for worship, and that the Wycliff Bible was out there? If they knew it was confusing to us who are not J. Witnesses, they would have made sure, so why didn't they? We don't have a charter like that but you do.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/12


"I was asking you the questions first." Mark_V

What? Can one of the "elect" be purposely dishonest?

When you answer the question that I asked first regarding the meaning of the word "worship" and the scriptural references that I provided (below) then you will answer your own question directed at me.

Since English appears to be a second language for you, perhaps you are also unaware of the "two birds with one stone" idiom.
---scott on 12/14/12


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"I was asking you the questions first." Mark_V

Since you know this to be completely untrue (simply check the dates below) ...

...is it possible that of the "elect" is intentionally dishonest?


Could God not find any honest individuals to be his chosen elect?

Answer the question(s) regarding the meaning of the word "worship" and the scriptural citations that I have posted (below) and you will not only answer my questions...but yours.

Since it appears that English may be a second language for you, perhaps you are also unfamiliar with the English idiom: "two birds with one stone".
---scott on 12/14/12


Simple question Scott for someone who is a Jehovah Witness. I asked the same question to two witnesses who came to my house, and they told me they only worship God. I asked them if the worship Jesus Christ and they said no. So do you believe as they do? Come on, I cannot believe a smart guy like you cannot answer a simple question. Didn't the Watchtower prepare you for that question?
---Mark_V. on 12/14/12


"I was asking you the questions first." Mark_V

Prove it.
---scott on 12/12/12


Scott, I was asking you the questions first. I don't have any trouble knowing what worship means. You have many reasons why you want a definition because you cannot answer the questions without them. Do you worship Jesus Christ? Yes or no?
Do you worship God only? Yes or no? What you want to attempt is to give Jesus Christ another definition. The writers of your charter gave it one definition, not many. They used the same word on both. So are you saying they didn't know the difference? They were not educated enough? They never read the Wycliff Bible? I put one question to you, one simple question, and you cannot even answer that?
Who do you worship?
---Mark_V. on 12/12/12


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"Worship-" Mark_V-

Since I asked this simple question on 12/8/12 (and you chose to avoid it rather than even attempt some sort of answer), I will wait for your response before answering any diversionary questions that you pose.

Did you think we wouldn't notice? Here it is again for your convenience:

What does the word "worship" mean in the scriptural examples that I posted below?*




*1 Chronicles 29:20 (KJV), Rev 3:9 (KJV, NKJV, ASV), Matt 19:19 (Wycliff's Translation).
---scott on 12/11/12


Scott, you continue dancing, avoiding answering my questions. Why? They were very simple,
"Do you worship Jesus Christ or not?
"Do you worship God or not?" and
Did the guys who wrote your Charter, not know what the word worship meant?
Did they forget there was a Wycliff Bible? Who were those guys who wrote the Charter? Please answer the questions.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/12


"Talking in circles..." Mark_V

Circles? My point has been clear and direct on this topic (your topic) from the beginning.

The intrinsic meaning of words can change over time and that is the case with the word "worship". And I haven't used "commentary" to make that point, as you have dishonestly suggested, but God's word.

When Wycliff wrote his translation and rendered Matt 19:19: "Worship your Father and Mother." What did he understand the word "worship" to mean?

When the nation of Israel "worshiped" David along with God (1 Chron 21:20 KJV) is there a difference in how we understand the word as it's directed toward David in contrast to God?
---scott on 12/10/12


Scott, you talk alot in circles trying to avoid not answering my questions. You are doing a lot of dancing. But when a clear question is put to you, you don't answer. Stop the nonesense, answer the question.
You look at different bibles, looking for words that can help you, different commentaries, the very same trick all the Witnesses use to avoid the Truth, and change it to what is more convinent for your believes. The have people looking at every word they can change for the simple reason of turning the Truth to a lie, just like all the cults, and also, to avoid simple questions, like the one found in your charter.
---Mark_V. on 12/10/12


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"Worship/Obeisance" Mark_V (2)

Continued-

1 Chronicles 29:20 (KJV) says:

"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation...bowed down their heads, and worshipped (proskuneo) the LORD, and the king."

Rev 3:9 (KJV, NKJV, ASV)-

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan...I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

Matt 19:19 (Wycliff's Translation, modernized)-

"Worship thy father and thy mother..."


What does "worship" mean here Mark?
---scott on 12/9/12


"The new world translation changed the meaning of John 1:1." Mark_V

Simply not true.

My guess is that you have little knowledge of the Koine Greek text for John 1:1 and even less interest in engaging in a topic that challenges your theologic house of cards.

Ding-dong. Another game of doorbell ditch old friend? Instead of making accusations and running from the topic when challenged, bring your sword and, in this case, perhaps a Greek lexicon.

I won't hold my breath.
---scott on 12/9/12


Scott, ok, if you insist,
Do you worship God?
Do you worship Jesus Christ?
Whom do you worship?
The new world translation changed the meaning of John 1:1. The Word is a god but not God. For one purpose only. To strip the deity of Christ. For what reason? So they could say, He was not God but an angel equal to satan, a little god. For what reason? To continue the false teachings that J. Witnesses do not worship Christ but God only. Yet your charter says, to worship Jesus Christ. Are you saying the people who wrote your charter were wrong, because they did not know English, or meaning of words? That none of it is true at all? So who do you worship?
---Mark_V. on 12/9/12


"Worship-" Mark_V

Of course you failed to even attempt to answer the simple question:

What does the word "worship" mean in the scriptural examples that I posted below?

Take your time.
---scott on 12/8/12


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Scott, no matter what is presented to you, it is always wrong for some reason or another. Here you say about the word "worship."
"Today the English speaking world has a very narrow understanding of the word" of course to you it does, since that word is found in article 2 of your charter. which includes,
"...and prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers, and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for public Christian "worship" of Almighty God and Christ Jesus"
Now you say, the world has a very misunderstanding of the word "worship." Presented with facts, you always have an excuse.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/12


"Worship/Obeisance" Mark_V (1)

Ahhh. No doubt another example of Mark-V's childish theological doorbell ditch.

Let's see if (this time) he can attempt an actual discussion and follow it through to some logical and, more importantly, scriptural conclusion.

Simply put, the intrinsic meaning of words can change over time. This is clearly the case with the word "worship".

Today the English speaking world has a very narrow understanding of the word. It now has an almost singular connotation of religious veneration as directed toward some deity. But that has not always been the case...certainly as demonstrated in some English translations of the Bible.

Continued
---scott on 12/7/12


scott I am baptist and I know of no baptist that claims to even know when Jesus will return. God is the only one who knows.
---shira4368 on 12/7/12


"You are wrong because you get your information from the Watchtower" Mark_V

Funny, the quote from Billy Graham is cited (posted below) in a couple of sources including US News and World Report.

Are you now suggesting that the Watchtower publishers also publish US News and World Report?

All of the other examples are easily researched for those with an actual interest in the truth of the matter. You have historically demonstrated otherwise on this site. That's why you simply dismiss the plain facts as WT propaganda.

Whatever you do...don't let the facts get in the way of your, silly, vitriolic rants.
---scott on 12/7/12


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Scott, you are wrong because you get your information from the Watchtower, which has changed more times then I change shoes. In the beginning Jesus was worshipped, as time went on, they change the word worship to mean "do obeisance." Today J. W. believes the Second Coming of Jesus will be invisible, In Let God be True (1952) states there is no visible return of Jesus. Charles Russell's reason for leaving the teachings of his parents.
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming" on the clouds of heaven with great power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30). Looks pretty visible to me.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/12


"Billy Graham...not giving a time." Mark_V (1)

He said in 1950 that "in two years it will be all over". Let me help you with the math. Two years later is 1952.

Baptist forerunners, the Anabaptists, predicted 1533 to be the end.

Lutheran leaders set 1590 as the date that "the Gospel would be preached to all nations...unity would be achieved.. " 1635 was one date set for the end.

Cardinal de Cusa said the end would come in 1700 AD.

Catholic scholar, Arnald of Villanova, predicted the AntiChrist would appear in 1378.

Calvary Chapel Pastor Chuck Smith suggested 1981.

Methodist founders John and Charles Wesley pointed toward 1836 as the end.

Continued
---scott on 12/6/12


"Time." Mark_V (2)

Cautionary statements surrounding dates and JWs are, of course, ignored by opposers.

1914- "We are not prophesying, we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them." WT, 1-1-08, pg. 4110

1975- "Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished...It could! All things are possible with God...But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975." WT 10-15-66, pg 631
---scott on 12/6/12


Scott, you should have stayed in the Truth. Billy Graham was only giving his opinion. He was not speaking from Scripture, or was he giving a day and time. Everyone has an opinion. When people like the J. Witnesses give dates and times, and profess it is coming from God. Then when things don't happen, they say, they got new revelation, God changed things and now there is a new date. There was much disappointment on most of the Witnesses concerning the years 1914, 1918, 1925, that lasted for a time. The prophet of the Witnesses is not one man, but a group known as International Bible Students, Today known as Jehovah Christian Witnesses acting together as a prophet. Before only one prophet, Charles Russell, now a whole group make a prophet.
---Mark_V. on 12/6/12


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Mark_Eaton: Thank you for quoting Rev.22:3. Rev.22:1 also mentions "the throne" of God and of the Lamb. The verses are not referring to 2 thrones but one. And the last phrase of verse 3 says,"His servant shall serve Him" meaning God and the Lamb refers to 1 entity. You may check also Rev.4:2 & 7:17.
---Adetunji on 12/6/12


Jesus and the Father are ONE.
---Adetunji on 12/5/12

One and the same?

Not according to these verses:

Rev 21:22 " I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple"

Rev 5:13 "...To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever".

They both will sit on thrones in the Earth. See here:

Rev 22:3 "There will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/5/12


Mark_Eaton: //Do you think only Jesus will be on the throne when God the Father is present?// Jesus and the Father are ONE.
---Adetunji on 12/5/12


"I was there..." MG

And as a former Baptist "I was there" (though more of a twinkle in my father's eye) when Billy Graham said In 1950:

"We may have another year, maybe two years, to work for Jesus Christ, and, Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe it is all going to be over ... two years and its all going to be over." *

What? Billy Graham a false prophet?

*McLoughlin, William G., 1978 Revivals, Awakenings and Reform. University of Chicago Press. Chicago. pp.185. See also US News and World Report (December 19, 1994)
---scott on 12/2/12


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I was there for "staying alive till 1975" .
I lived through it. I watched a 50+ year old couple (very old to me at the time...lol) quit work and sell all their belongings to enter the pioneer work full-time because of the society's 1975 "prediction". Their faith was strong. I have to hand that to them. I often wonder how they fared in their old age and probable poverty. I remember the "6-month or drop 'em" policy and remember thinking "wow! we really must be getting down to the wire"!

It angers me when they say they didn't advocate 1975 as a special date. And, of course, those who weren't there believe the current cover-up about it.
---Maria_Gibson on 12/1/12


"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."
Deuteronomy 18:18-20
---christan on 11/30/12


?//Psalm 90/89LXX and 2 Peter 3 make it plain that WE[????] should not consider 1000 years as fallen earthly time//

"We" refers to us Christians, JMarc.

I don't know about you.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/29/12


?//Psalm 90/89LXX and 2 Peter 3 make it plain that WE[????] should not consider 1000 years as fallen earthly time//2nd Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is WITH THE LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. it't Talking about the the LORD'S point of view! i way amazed that you used the Bible to back yourself up & it threw me!
---J_Marc on 11/29/12


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You don't actually think it's talking about an earthly millennium, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/12

Why not. I have given you great loads of proof for an Earthly reign of Jesus. And not after the Earth passes away. God the Father will be present and will be on the throne as seen here:

Rev 21:3 "And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them"

and here:

Rewv 21:22 "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple"

Do you think only Jesus will be on the throne when God the Father is present?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/29/12


\\And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall REIGN on the EARTH.
Who are the kings &
priests here?\\

You don't actually think it's talking about an earthly millennium, do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/12


//Rev 20 makes it clear that the reign takes place in heaven// Where?? in Rev 20?//Psalm 90/89LXX and 2 Peter 3 make it plain that we should not consider 1000 years as fallen earthly time.// Agreed!Rev. 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall REIGN on the EARTH.
Who are the kings &
priests here?
---J_Marc on 11/28/12


Rev 20 makes it clear that the reign takes place in heaven.

Psalm 90/89LXX and 2 Peter 3 make it plain that we should not consider 1000 years as fallen earthly time.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/28/12


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//No such thing as a literal earthly millennium.// You don't believe the word of God? Here is scripitual evidence of an earthly millennium!

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,And hast made us unto our God kings and PRIESTS: and we shall REIGN on the EARTH.Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIEST of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years.
---J_Marc on 11/27/12


\\The 6,000 years would be followed by the Millennium, \\

No such thing as a literal earthly millennium.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/27/12


By 1968, the sects magazine, Awake!, was proclaiming a new date for Armageddon: Today we have the evidence required, all of it. And it is overwhelming! All the many, many parts of the great sign of the last days are here, together with verifying Bible chronology. That complex chronology ran like this: Adam was created in the autumn of 4026 B.C., which meant that 6,000 years of human existence would end in late 1975. The 6,000 years would be followed by the Millennium, 1,000 years of Sabbathlike rest, just as God rested after six days of Creation and established the Sabbath.
---Julie_Sinclair on 11/27/12


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