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Transsubstantiation Meaning

Someone on a recent blog brought up the issue of transubstantiation.

Does anyone here know what the word actually means?

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 ---Cluny on 12/6/12
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Cluny: U don't 'play by the rule' of Verse, but U will listen to any old 'saint':

Johannes Chrysostomus, whom you regard a saint, said, "The Son committed to Peter the office of spreading the knowledge of His Father and Himself over the whole world. He who increased the Church in all the earth, and proclaimed it to be stronger than the heavens, gave to a mortal man all power in Heaven when He handed him the Keys"

Really! That was quick of Christ to pass it straight on to Peter.

Matt 11:27 & Luke 10:22 All things have been committed to me by my Father. ....

Is Christ redundant then?

The keys were for Peter to open the church to Jews & Gentiles: Acts 2:14-36 & 10
---John_II on 1/2/13


Scripture is mostly concerned with spiritual realities, such as Christ's own words concerning the flesh and blood of the communion:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



---jerry6593 on 1/1/13

Jerry,

Ae you saying Jesus "flesh profiteth nothing:"?
---Ruben on 1/2/13


\\The Lord warned his true followers to stay away from mans traditions.\\

So why have YOU come up with YOUR man-made traditions, such as God doesn't know everything?

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify HIm!
---Cluny on 1/1/13


Ruben: You're arguing your case from symbolism as though it were not. Christ is slain from creation (Rev 13:8), Christ's blood is shed (Luke 22:20). Effectually done for all time, done, always to be remembered but never ever to be redone (Hebrews 9:27,28 & Romans 5:18).

Yet, this abominable thing is done every Sunday in the RCC, in spite of the warnings from Scripture:

Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Search google images for "pope's staff" and then tell me that this 'holiest man' doesn't know he's crucifying the Son of God again and again.
---John_II on 1/1/13


Ruben: "Why when all we need is scripture:"

Why not use the objective reality of a lab test. Otherwise you are burying your head in a pile of ignorance. Scripture is mostly concerned with spiritual realities, such as Christ's own words concerning the flesh and blood of the communion:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


---jerry6593 on 1/1/13




transubstantiation is not a word converted believers need to understand. It is a black magic pagan doctrine of demons.

Easiest way to confirm never an example the Lord Jesus Christ left his followers and this practice was never mentioned by the Lord or the Apostles.

The Lord warned his true followers to stay away from mans traditions. Black magic traditions (pagan heathen whatever you want to call it) are created by unconverted men (aka gentile unbelievers).

There are no verses in holy scripture to support this doctrine of demons. Remember Gods warning do not add to his word. The mumbo jumbo of transubstantiation is necessary to complete this evil doctrine. The simplicity in the Lord does not require additives by men.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/1/13


\\Trey what does the Eastern Orthodox Church teach concerning the "communion service?"--\\

First off, Eastern Orthodox Churches do not have "communion services," except when the consecrated Body and Blood of Christ are brought to sick and shut ins after they have been consecrated at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrisostom or St. Basil.

There is also the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, which is celebrated on weekdays of Great Lent, which is basically Vespers followed by Communion from the Reserved Mysteries consecrated on the previous Sunday.

If you want to know what we teach about this, you can look it up on Orthodox sites.

Happy New Year!

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/12


Hey Cluny & Ruben: Did you get the results back from the lab yet?


---jerry6593 on 12/29/12

Why when all we need is scripture:

"This bread is my Flesh (JHN 6:51)

" My flesh is real food, My blood is real drink" (JHN 6:54)

" This IS my body (MT 26:26)''

" They were made known to him in breaking of the bread" (LK 24:32)

In other words when he(Jesus) said 'This is my body'
---Ruben on 12/31/12


Ruben: Truly you have no shame using 1 John 2:2,3. Jesus is now in Heaven at the right hand of God -john_11 on 12/21/12

But yet the book of Revelation says:

"in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, (Rev 5:6)

Why is that?






---John_II on 12/21/12
---Ruben on 12/31/12


Hey Cluny & Ruben: Did you get the results back from the lab yet?


---jerry6593 on 12/29/12




Trey what does the Eastern Orthodox Church teach concerning the "communion service?" What does the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church teach concerning the"communion service?"
---Phill on 12/22/12


Ruben: 3 times U have used Hebrews 2:17 (Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy...) as support for re-sacrificing Christ every Mass, and 3 times you have insulted of the Spirit of Grace:
Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished... who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For what does Hebrews 2:5-9 teach us? Answer: That nothing save God is subject to Him, and certainly not some sinful priest, for Jesus is now crowned with glory and honour because He tasted death for everyone - by the grace of God.

And how stupendous is this grace:
Hebrews 10:12 ... this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice ....
---John_II on 12/22/12


Ruben: You cite from Romans 4 & 5 which talk of faith, in that God can do what He says He can do, yet you keep RCs faithless so they stay trapped in the sacrificial system - and that of Christ!

Hebrews 9:27-28, Romans 5:18 clearly warns against Transubstantiation yet you use the breaking of the bread as a front so that you can crucify the Son of God time-and-again to satisfy your lord in Rome, because of a certainty you are dragging Christ to here:
Hebrews 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world.

Those who have faith that God can do what He says He can do are here:
Hebrews 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
---John_II on 12/21/12


John_II * Hebrews 4:16 - Christ was made in the likeness of sinful man, in every way, viz. die once!

But w/o sin therefore we can:

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."


John_II * Hebrews 5:1 - This is the 'old order', read on the 5:10 and then 7:11

"The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." (Heb 7:21-25)
---Ruben on 12/21/12


Ruben: Truly you have no shame using 1 John 2:2,3. Jesus is now in Heaven at the right hand of God interceding for us Christians (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 8:1), step back a verse:

1 John 2:1 .... But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense Jesus Christ

Yet you Catholics drag Him down, strip Him of His crown and honour (Hebrews 2:9), and subject Him to public disgrace

So what can be made of the Parable of the Tenants?
Mark 12:8

So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

So they took him and killed...
---John_II on 12/21/12


John_II* Response to the verses that you have cited:


Hebrews 2:17 - If I were to say, "I had to go to school so that I might make better grades", then this doesn't mean that I am still making grades, for I left in '86

Unfortunately for you grades and sins are not the same. I am sure you have sin today and will tomorrow and in the future. Fortunately for you and me 1 Jhn 2: 2-3 says

" But if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
---Ruben on 12/21/12


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Ruben, why do you hold so hard on the traditions of man that the RCC imposed when you know that it is so wrong? You know it, you have been given enough passages, and without shame, you insist the traditions of your church concerning the communion is right when it is so wrong.
You cannot sacrifice Christ over and over. The Old Testament people had to offer an animal sacrifice over and over, like them, you guys want to sacrifice over and over.
He died once for all. Not every Sunday. You also know it is not His body or His blood you drink. The bread and wine were made by some company. At least fight for something that is right.
---Mark_V. on 12/21/12


John_II * So why would you suppose that a sinful priest could re-sacrifice Him now - every Mass?

Because Jesus told sinful men :

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread"

John_II* Romans 5:18

Paul tells us in Romans 4:25 "put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification."
His resurrection was for the purpose of our own justification!


John_II * You're in danger if trampling Jesus underfoot every time you leave Mass.

Not true, we are doing exatcly as Paul says "
The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" 1 Cor 10:16)
---Ruben on 12/20/12


His once and for all sacrifice is truly made present each time at the Mass.
---Ruben on 12/19/12

Response to the verses that you have cited:

  1. Hebrews 2:17 - If I were to say, "I had to go to school so that I might make better grades", then this doesn't mean that I am still making grades, for I left in '86
  2. Hebrews 4:16 - Christ was made in the likeness of sinful man, in every way, viz. die once!
  3. Hebrews 5:1 - This is the 'old order', read on the 5:10 and then 7:11
  4. Revelation 13:8 - It doesn't say, being slain'


Therefore, Hebrews 9:27,28 & Romans 5:18 notwithstanding, you still don't have any Scriptural basis for re-sacrificing Christ.
---John_II on 12/20/12


"re-presentation"
The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, the re-sacrificing of Christ."

Astounding!

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they CRUCIFY to themselves the Son of God AFRESH, and put him to an open shame.
---jmarc on 12/20/12


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Cluny: You declared, "That actually is not the teaching of the Roman CAtholic Church--that Christ is re-sacrificed."

You will say to me that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice of Christ but a re-presentation

Well let's see:

As a re-sacrifice:
For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that "the work of our redemption is accomplished," (CCC, 1068).

And as a re-presentation:
The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, (CCC, 1366).

So, the RCC claims to 'make present' the re-sacrificing of Christ. It's incontrovertible.
---John_II on 12/19/12


Roman Catholic: You have to understand that Jesus was both priest and sacrifice:

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

...you cannot get holier than that! So why would you suppose that a sinful priest could re-sacrifice Him now - every Mass?

As with Hebrews 9:27-28, Romans 5:18 explicitly warns us about Transubstantiation by drawing parallels:

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

You're in danger if trampling Jesus underfoot every time you leave Mass.
---John_II on 12/19/12


John_II * Hebrews 9:26 .... But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Ok but yet we are told:

"faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:`17)

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb 4:16)

"For every high priest chosen from among men ... to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins."

Look at Rev 13:8 "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World."

His once and for all sacrifice is truly made present each time at the Mass.
---Ruben on 12/19/12


\\Ruben: If U suppose that Heb. 9:23 ... better sacrifices than these. means the re-sacrificing of Christ is to be done every Mass,\\

That actually is not the teaching of the Roman CAtholic Church--that Christ is re-sacrificed.

And please do not use text speech when discussing serious issues. Write like an adult.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/18/12


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Ruben: If U suppose that Heb. 9:23 ... better sacrifices than these. means the re-sacrificing of Christ is to be done every Mass, then what can be done about Hebrews 9:27? You cannot do anything with it! So your interpretation of 9:23 must be wrong - and it is! Yes it states that the heavenly things ought to purified with better blood than the earthly - from better sacrifices, but what actually happens? Hebrews 9 goes on to tell us:
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, ....

This is the point. It doesn't have to be plural - sacrifices:
Hebrews 9:26 .... But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
---John_II on 12/18/12


John_II* Hebrews 9:27,28

But before you get to vesres 27-28, you have to deal with v22-23:

"and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."V 22

Jesus uses the same lanuage in Matthew 26: 28:

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

V 23 reads :

"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

Paul writes that there is a plurality of sacrifices. How is that possible? Unless of course there is a repetition of sacrifice? Don't you agree?
---Ruben on 12/17/12


The Passover in the OT was pointing to the blood of Christ

I Cor 5:7-8 "Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, OUR PASSOVER, was sacrificed for us. Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
---j_Marc on 12/17/12


Ruben: A study of Hebrews 9 also raises many questions if you are re-sacrificing Christ every Mass, like, 'Is the ransom still to be paid?' 'Are their codicils in the example of the will?' 'Can an un-bloody sacrifice take away sins?' 'Is Christ to be brought down again and again?'

But this is where your transubstantiation falls down for good:
Hebrews 9:27,28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and he will appear a second time, ....

Will man be judged and re-judged?

So the Scriptures trumps transubstantiation knowing that it would have to do so. Which is not seldom when it comes to RCC doctrine
---John_II on 12/17/12


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christan: "the wafer tasted like wafer and the wine like wine... maybe I was "lacking the RC faith" to fool myself that it was flesh and blood."

Who you gonna believe? The priest or your lying tongue?


---jerry6593 on 12/16/12


John 11, that is what I told Ruben before. The doctrine of works is the doctrine of the RCC. It is combined in many ways, through eating Christ and drinking His blood, through been a member of the Roman Catholic Church, through baptism, and even penance to make sure they make it in. Jesus sacrifice is not sufficient to save them just like the Bible is not sufficient either, they need to do a lot of works and maybe they get in, and if they really sin bad, they go to purgatory after death and wait for someone to pay their debt, because they cannot while physically dead.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/12


Tell me John is there any more evidence that here Paul is speaking about the Eucharistic sacrifice?
---Ruben on 12/14/12

We have already seen (below) that Christ died once for all, so does this 'once' mean once or once-time-and-again? Are we to re-sacrifice Christ time and again for our sins? If so, then a study of Romans 6 raises some questions like, How many new lives do we get? Has sin not been done away with? Does sin still have mastery over us? Is Christ still subject to death? Can I offer my members as instruments of both wickedness and of righteousness?

If you are still in the sacrificial system then you are not under Grace but under Law!
---John_II on 12/15/12


the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
---John_II on 12/13/12

Hebrews 2:17

"faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."

Hebrews 4:16

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

Hebrews 7:25

"Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. "

Hebrews 8:3

"For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices, hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer."
---Ruben on 12/14/12


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the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
---John_II on 12/13/12

Hebrews 8:2-3


a minister in the sanctuary .. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices,"

Hebrews 9:22-23

"and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

Jesus uses the same words:

" which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'( MT 26:28)

"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these . "

Tell me John is there any more evidence that here Paul is speaking about the Eucharistic sacrifice?
---Ruben on 12/14/12


Roman Catholic, understand, at every Mass, U are sacrificing Christ for your sins - every time.

"...this sacrifice is truly propitiatory," (CCC, 1367)

The propitiatory sacrifice has already happened - once for all:
Hebrews 10:10 ... the sacrifice of ... Jesus Christ once for all.

Romans 6:10 .., he died to sin once for all, ....

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, ..,

You might be saying, "I know this, but the RCC doesn't do what you are saying." Well, know this: if U are sinning in the belief that they will be atoned for at Mass:
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the ... the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
---John_II on 12/13/12


jerry, good point and come to think about it when I was a RC for forty-three years, the wafer tasted like wafer and the wine like wine... maybe I was "lacking the RC faith" to fool myself that it was flesh and blood. Yup, that must be it.

Praise the Lord for bringing me out of this dark practice and into His glorious Light.
---christan on 12/13/12


\\They couldn't have believed they were eating the flesh of Christ or drinking His blood. We are not told anywhere Jesus cut many parts of His body off and gave it to them. \\

But this is not what transubstantiation means.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/13/12


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Instead, all Paul said was, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." Did Paul say, "eat His flesh and drink His blood"?
---christan on 12/12/12

Yes:

"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you'V 24

"this cup is the new testament in my blood"

In fact he said "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,"V 23

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body ."V 29
---Ruben on 12/13/12


OK Boys, let's settle this once and for all. Ruben & Cluny, next time you take communion, take a sample of the bread and wine and have it analyzed at an impartial lab to see if it is bread and wine or flesh and blood. Honestly, you should be able to tell the difference yourself just by tasting. If it doesn't taste like flesh and blood, then you are deluding yourself to think that it is. Besides, the NT proscribes the pagan practice of drinking blood (Acts 15:20).


---jerry6593 on 12/13/12


Cluny, I thought about what you said when you asked,

"
What do you think the Apostles believed:
What they saw with their eyes, or what Jesus told them?
Think about it."


They couldn't have believed they were eating the flesh of Christ or drinking His blood. We are not told anywhere Jesus cut many parts of His body off and gave it to them. Or that He opened His vains so that he could give the disciple a drink of His blood. The disciples were not stupid. If I sat in front of you and told you to eat my flesh, you would probably jump up and take a bit out of me. Get real Cluny. What Jesus said was symbolic, not literal.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/12


Ruben, your use of Scriptures to support your stand on transubstantiation is truly astounding. And "if" you're right which I am most definitely sure you're not, then Paul must have been in complete error in 1 Corinthians 11 when he was having the "Lord's supper" with the Christians.

NEVER did Paul even breathed a word about what you have just explained about transubstantiation. And how you even picked it up is obviously not from the Holy Spirit nor Scripture.

Instead, all Paul said was, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." Did Paul say, "eat His flesh and drink His blood"?
---christan on 12/12/12


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christan * Now, isn't the bread then "SYMBOLIC" of His flesh?

NO:

"the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (Jhn 6:51)

christan * Does it mean that one must 'EAT HIS FLESH"?

YES: If you want Eternal Life,

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (Jhn 6:54)

christan * And how does a wafer turn into His flesh?

Scripture doesn't say , but then again it does not explain the doctrine of the Trinity.

Scripture does say:

"For with God nothing will be impossible?" (Lk.1:37)
---Ruben on 12/12/12


christan * - the actual bread Christ offered or part of the flesh of Jesus Christ?

Jesus answers it for you:

Take and eat it, this IS my Body.

This IS my Blood. (Mt. 26:26-28)

the bread I will give is my flesh,(Jhn 6:51)

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

It is in the bible, and you call yourself a bible believer.

It takes faith and spiritual insight to believe!

Didnt the angel say: For with God nothing will be impossible? (Lk.1:37)

And what did the God the Father say to us about his Son! " Listen to him"
---Ruben on 12/12/12


christian, you are right on the mark! May I just throw this in for good measure.

Joh6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ is speaking of the words concerning the bread. It did not become flesh. It is symbolic of Christ dwelling in us, for lack of a better explaination.

Even the very act of taking part in the communion service does not save a man. It is Christ that saves us!
---trey on 12/11/12


"Jesus took bread, and blessed it,gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is my body."

Ruben, the space in your corner must be getting pretty tight. When Jesus spoke those words above as you quoted, what then did the apostles ate during the last supper with their Savior - the actual bread Christ offered or part of the flesh of Jesus Christ?

Now, isn't the bread then "SYMBOLIC" of His flesh? Does it mean that one must 'EAT HIS FLESH"? And how does a wafer turn into His flesh? See the folly and where your transubstantiation is heading? The broad gate to destruction!
---christan on 12/11/12


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"What do you think the Apostles believed" Cluny

Obviously NOT transubstantiation!

This is what the apostles and Christians believe:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" 1 Peter 3:18

"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." 1 Corinthians 11:26
---christan on 12/11/12


\\I ask you again, in Matthew 26:26 - when Christ was having the last supper with His apostles, what was before them? A loaf of bread and wine OR a piece of His flesh and blood?\\

What do you think the Apostles believed:

What they saw with their eyes, or what Jesus told them?

Think about it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/11/12


I ask you again, in Matthew 26:26 - when Christ was having the last supper with His apostles, what was before them? A loaf of bread and wine OR a piece of His flesh and blood?

---christan on 12/10/12

Which did Jesus say:

Jesus took bread, and blessed it,gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is my body.

And he took the cup, For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

OR

Take, eat, this is Like my body.

this is representation of my blood of the new testament
---Ruben on 12/11/12


christan: Good point! The table for the last supper was not set up at the foot of the cross.


---jerry6593 on 12/11/12


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""For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

"Did he symbolic shed his blood or was it literal?" Ruben

That's not even the context of Matthew 26:26-29. When Christ spoke those words, was He hanging on the cross and bleeding to death yet or was He having the last supper with His apostles before giving up His life?

Your ignorance of the sequence and context of Scripture is truly mind boggling. And all because you want to justify "transubstantiation" - which to begin with is not what Christ was even saying or teaching.
---christan on 12/10/12


"Did he symbolic give us his flesh at the cross or literally?" Ruben

You don't even understand the context of Matthew 26:26 and you want to jump to His death at the cross in Calvary? Did I even advocate that His death at Calvary was "symbolic"?

I ask you again, in Matthew 26:26 - when Christ was having the last supper with His apostles, what was before them? A loaf of bread and wine OR a piece of His flesh and blood?

Don't change the subject for if you want to discuss His atonement, I'll gladly do it with you but if you cannot understand what happened at the last supper... it would be a waste of time.
---christan on 12/10/12


christan * And what was Christ holding before His apostles in Matthew 26:26?

Lets see:

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is my body."

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Did he symbolic shed his blood or was it literal?

"the bread that I will give is my flesh,"which I will give for the life of the world (Jhn 6:51)

Did he symbolic give us his flesh at the cross or literally?
---Ruben on 12/10/12


"The Passover in the OT was pointing to the blood of Christ," Amen!

I Cor 5:7-8 "Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, OUR PASSOVER, was sacrificed for us. Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
---J-Marc on 12/10/12


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An un-bloody but real re-sacrificing of Jesus that "removes the wrath of God" at every Mass, every time.

Could this be a terrible oversight that is well-intended? No, because the Pope is the "man of sin", so why wouldn't he be re-sacrifice Christ again and again?

Pope...Man of Sin???

According the B. Enc. '61, when a Cardinal is created, the Pope recites, "By authority of Almighty God, ... St. Peter and St. Paul, and of Ourself, we ..."

We ought to enquire of ourselves: Where's Christ? Also, isn't it cute how the RCC subtly placed Paul and Peter between God and the Antichrist?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 .., so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
---John_II on 12/10/12


You don't actually think that the entity you believe in and even call "jesus" is the real one, do you, christan?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/10/12


christan * And your understanding in John 6:51,55 is that Christ is advocating cannibalism? Are you kidding?

They had the same feeling you did:

"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (JHn 6:52)

cannibalism, right? Let's see what Jesus said:

"I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood"V52

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood"V53

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood"V55

"so he that eateth me"V56

"he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."V 57

On and on...
---Ruben on 12/10/12


"Jesus told me to tell you you're listening to Satan and are merely saying his words" Cluny

Wow! Now you've got your jesus talking to you. That's new. I'm sure your jesus told you to celebrate christmas and that it's okay to say his birthday was on December 25 even it's not mentioned in the Holy Bible, right? Oh, and also belief in "transubstantiation" too? Like the death of the real Christ was not sufficient to save His people from their sins through faith in Him that there must be "transubstantiation" to occur today.

Btw, maybe you like to ask your jesus what I've written is actually from satan or is it satan that's talking to you?

You're getting really bizarre by your postings.
---christan on 12/9/12


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\\You may think you're being persecuted but the words you speak are words of condemnation to your own soul, and that comes from Christ, not me.\\

Jesus told me to tell you you're listening to Satan and are merely saying his words.

Besides, didn't you see my words when I told you Orthodox don't use wafers?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/9/12


"Here's a scripture to prove we should observe Passover." J-Marc

The Passover in the OT was pointing to the blood of Christ, as was the Sabbath Day of rest to now rest in Him. All these have now found it's fulfillment in the Lord Jesus Christ, a person and not a day.

The Christian remembers Christ's sacrifice at Calvary not as a particular day but every other day from now till Christ comes and take him "home". And the same is said of the Lord of the Sabbath. We are to give our lives 100% to Him and not a particular day.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30
---christan on 12/9/12


When the disciples of Christ were disgusted with His implication that they commit cannibalism, He straightened them out with the statement:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is surprizing that Catholics and Catholic Wannabes missed this scripture. The bread and wine are spiritual emblems of the "bread of life" and the "blood of the vine".

---jerry6593 on 12/9/12


---Follower_of_Christ "evil traditions of men who reject the Passover for their own black magic of transubstantiation that is often practiced daily another antichrist difference."
Thank you, I'm loving reading your blog replies, I agree with you. Here's a scripture to prove we should observe Passover: I Cor 5:7-8 "Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
---J-Marc on 12/9/12


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Cluny, it's always good company to be with the father of lies. Both you and Ruben use of John 6:51,55 to justify "transubstantiation", where your "wafer" turns into the "real body of Christ" is blasphemy and most definitely not taught in the Bible. In short, it's a pagan as it gets.

You forgot that Christ was in the flesh when He spoke those words in John 6:51,55 and neither He nor Paul taught that a "wafer" will turn into "His body" when it's offered in that Vatican ritual daily call, the mass.

You may think you're being persecuted but the words you speak are words of condemnation to your own soul, and that comes from Christ, not me.
---christan on 12/8/12


FoC. can you provide us with a quote from a Mithraic document that will prove the connection between Mithraism and the Eucharist?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/12


\\It's important to comprehend what was copied from Mirtha religion by the church in Rome and to understand participation in the eucharist and the mythical pagan transubstantiation is a doctrine of devils.\\

Of course, there is absolutely no connection between Mithraic ritual and the Eucharist, but that means nothing to people whose minds are made up.

Why is it that churches of Apostolic foundation that were never connected with Rome believe that the bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, FoC? Can you explain that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/12


\\And your understanding in John 6:51,55 is that Christ is advocating cannibalism? Are you kidding?\\

One of the charges laid against Christians by both pagans and heretics was cannibalism.

Keep up the good work. You're putting us in good company.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/8/12


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"Jesus also said in the Gospel of John chapter 6" Ruben

And your understanding in John 6:51,55 is that Christ is advocating cannibalism? Are you kidding?

"Rita_H * It should be obvious that this was symbolic - If it is symbolic why use these words: "Take, eat, this is my body."(MT 26:26) Ruben

And what was Christ holding before His apostles in Matthew 26:26? A piece of Himself or a piece of bread? See how perverted your understanding is of what is literal and what is symbolic? No discernment whatsoever.
---christan on 12/8/12


It's important to comprehend what was copied from Mirtha religion by the church in Rome and to understand participation in the eucharist and the mythical pagan transubstantiation is a doctrine of devils.

The eucharist is evil and denigrates the Lord Jesus and the Passover. The Passover is the most holy day for true followers of the Lord. The former Passover symbol of the lamb was replaced by the Lord who is the NT lamb. The passover is a yearly memorial unlike evil traditions of men who reject the Passover for their own black magic of transubstantiation that is often practiced daily another antichrist difference.
---Follower_of_Christ on 12/8/12


\\It is said to mean that ones taking the Orthodox or Roman Catholic host are eating the body of Jesus and therefore are getting grace.\\

Orthodox don't use hosts, willie c.

Since you know so little about Orthodoxy, why are you commenting on it?

And you totally missed the definition of "transubstantiation."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/12


Rita_H * When Jesus used the words "This is my body" and "This is my blood" his blood was still in His veins (not yet shed for us).

Lets see:

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (MT 26:28)

Jesus also said in the Gospel of John chapter 6

"the bread that I will give is my flesh , which I will give for the life of the world."V 51

"For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."V 55


Rita_H * It should be obvious that this was symbolic-

If it is symbolic why use these words:

"Take, eat, this is my body."(MT 26:26)
---Ruben on 12/7/12


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It is said to mean that ones taking the Orthodox or Roman Catholic host are eating the body of Jesus and therefore are getting grace.

But, Jan > about taking communion "unworthily" > Paul first had said how wrong they had been, by eating and drinking next to poor Christians who had "nothing" (1 Corinthians 11:20-22). "not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:29) can include not appreciating and honoring Jesus' poor people, who are His body > "members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones."(Ephesians 5:30).
---willie_c: on 12/7/12


-jan4378 You're right! See V.30! 1st Cor.11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.>>>[What we are to believe when we eat the communion bread is for the healing of our body if it's sick or injured]

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
---J-Marc on 12/7/12


Actually, christan, transubstantion is the teaching in Roman Catholicism about HOW the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

Orthodoxy has never defined how this change takes place.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/7/12


When Jesus used the words "This is my body" and "This is my blood" He had not yet been crucified. His body was still intact (not yet broken for us) and His blood was still in His veins (not yet shed for us).

It should be obvious that this was symbolic and that He was saying "Do what you see me now doing to remember what I am about to do."

He never said that anything would change into something else.

We are told not to add to, or take away from, God's Word.

It is either true or it isn't and I believe that it is true and needs no amendments by His followers.
---Rita_H on 12/7/12


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Ahhh.... finally you've decided to come out of the Vatican closet. The Orthodox church is nothing but the little harlot of the mother harlot, after all. So before you hoodwink people about "transubstantiation",

"The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain." - Catholic Reference. Where in the Bible is this taught?

But Scripture does say, "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" Hebrews 10:11. Sounds rather familiar isn't it?
---christan on 12/7/12


If transsubstantiation were transformation then the bread would become Jesus flesh.

If it became Jesus flesh, that would be the donner party.

What we are to believe when we eat the communion bread is for the healing of our body if it's sick or injured.

And the drinking of the wine or grape juice is the blood of Jesus which refers to our salvation, and the forgiveness of all our sins.

To eat or drink unworthily would be to just eat bread and drink wine/juice. Not getting any spiritual benefit at all.
---jan4378 on 12/6/12


Cluny, You don't even need a dictionary to understand ,it means changing from one substance to another!
---1st_cliff on 12/6/12


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