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Why Not Keep 10 Commandments

I was looking at a blog here from 2009 about the ten commandments and I would like to ask what makes people think that if we are saved by faith and faith without works is dead, that we wouldn't keep the 10 commandments of God?

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 ---Jacqueline_Green on 12/21/12
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Francis. You quote scripture that does not support your claim of "imparted" righteousness. And the fact that you still disobey the commandments only further contradicts the doctrine you follow.

And "sanctification" came through Christ's one offering (Heb 10:10). This contradicts your works of the law doctrine.

You follow a complicated doctrine deceiving you into self-righteous works/spiritual fornication.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ".2Cor 11:3
---Haz27 on 12/28/12


1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.--- Are you greater than God???
---younh_pak on 12/28/12


Haz27, You believe that righteousness by faith is only God imputing to us his righteousness to cover our sin (justification)
Righteousness by faith is more than that, it's also:
partaking of the divine nature,2 Peter 1:4
Christ in you, Col 1:27
to be strengthened with might by his Spirit Eph 3:16
Christ dwell in your hearts by faith, Eph 3:17

Because Christ dwells in our hearts BY FAITH, we are strengthened to keep his laws (SANCTIFICATION)

If left to our own human efforts (THE FLESH) we would be reprobates.
Know ye not.., how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Cor13:5

But now that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us BY FAITH, we are strengthened to keep his laws and are not reprobates
---francis on 12/27/12


So, when Paul says "Flee fornication..." is he talking to Jesus? ---Nana on 12/27/12

nana, there are enough people on here that have issues. i don't have time for more non-sense.
---aka on 12/27/12


Samuelbb7 said: "Without the law there is no sin. So the law must exist or we would not be sinners."

You misunderstand scripture as it says Christians are NOT sinners (1Jo 3:6-9, 1Tim 1:9, 1Pet 4:1, 1Pet 4:18, Gal 2:15, 1Jo 5:18) as we're not under law.
And as Christ is the END of the Law for righteousness (Rom 10:4), this confirms Rom 8:33 "Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect?"

So why deny what Christ has done for us and still charge Christians with sin/transgression of the law (that Christ ENDED)?

Regarding His commandments, 1Jo 5, we see them in 1John 3:22,23.
"this is His commandment: that we should BELIEVE on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and LOVE one another"
---Haz27 on 12/28/12




Jacqueline, no one is saved by the law. The law teaches us what sin is and brings wrath. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The teachings of works come from the RCC. And have spread throughout Christiandom.
"For it is written, the just shall live by faith" we don't live our lives by works.
"For the promise that He would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. "For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath, for where there is no law there is no transgression" The law bring wrath, but faith brings justification.
---Mark_V. on 12/28/12


Nana. You speak of "fornication".
But note 1Thess 4:3 regarding God's will, "this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from (SPIRITUAL) fornication"

We were sanctified by Christ's ONE offering, Heb 10:10.
AND, the SPIRITUAL fornication we're to abstain from is the doctrine of works of the law (thats still preached by some on CN).

Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven/doctrine of the likes of the Pharisees, Matt 16:12.

"A little leaven (doctrine of works of law) leaveneth the whole lump". Gal 5:9.

Please heed God's warning to abstain from this spiritual fornication. A little of the doctrine of works of law can leaven the whole lump (unbelief).
---Haz27 on 12/28/12


"Also, as Christians we should honor the Lord with the first fruits on the Lord's day (Sunday)..." trey

I thought the "first fruit" was symbolic of a person called Jesus Christ? When a Christian demonstrate faith in Christ, isn't that obeying God in the highest of all the commands He has given to mankind?

The Christian worships God 24/7 and not just only on a Sunday. Gathering on a weekend to worship together is God's way that His people are brought together in fellowship of Christ. And that's because His Kingdom is all about worshipping and fellow-shipping with the saints. But to institute Sunday as "a day of obligation" like that of the RCs, that I question the intention.
---christan on 12/27/12


Samuelbb7, Francis, J Green. The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm (Rev 3:15,16) mix of grace plus works of the law. Those who follow such lukewarm doctrines God says "Repent" Rev 3:19.

You CAN'T mix grace and works, Rom 11:6.

You disguise your works of the law doctrine as obedience out of love, yet you expose your error when you judge others as unrighteous/lost/condemned unless they are obedient to the law.

God says:
Rom 8:33 "Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies"

But your righteousness by works of the law doctrine continues to charge those God justified, with "sin". You call "unclean", what God has cleansed. This is unbelief.
---Haz27 on 12/27/12


J.Green you asked: "how can one know for sure" whether they have the faith of Christ?

You answered that they produce fruit.
And what is that fruit?

1Cor 15:20 "But now CHRIST is risen from the dead, and has become the FIRSTFRUITS..."

It's Christ the firstfruit.

And what does Christ the firstfruit do for us?

Rom 11:16 "if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy"

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had Christ the firstfruit and he became holy as a result. And that without deeds of the law.

But your righteousness by works of the law doctrine (unbelief) rejects Christ's work in us and calls "unclean" what God has cleansed.
---Haz27 on 12/27/12




No Haz, you fault to the love you ought to give and you have also faulted the written law at least in all the points Paul mentions in Romans 13:9 Which say, "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, ..., it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
You pick and choose, John also says, 1John3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

"nana, ..., yes we are accountable to the royal law. we achieve this only through the fruit of the Spirit which is not of us, but Jesus through us."
aka on 12/27/12
???
So, when Paul says "Flee fornication..." is he talking to Jesus?
---Nana on 12/27/12


J.Green: you quote James 2 " faith without works is dead?"

What are our works?
John 6:29, Jesus answered "believe in him whom He hath sent?"
So our works are to believe in Jesus. Our righteousness is by faith and NOT deeds of the law.
But preaching deeds of the law is unbelief.

Nana, you quote James 2:8. But note verse 10 for context. It speaks of those under the law.
And to offend it in ONE point makes you guilty of ALL of it (as was intended, Rom 3:19). Have you offended the law in ONE point since receiving Jesus?

BTW, note also James 4:4. It speaks to SPIRITUAL adulterers. This refers to they who preach the law, as confirmed in James 4:11,12.
---Haz27 on 12/27/12


in Romans 13:9 and James 2:8, it seems your "royal law" is to be justified by works, is it not? I'm sure it is or you wouldn't have quoted Romans 13:9 with such as one who's a works monger advocate.
---christan on 12/27/12
So you think if you honour your father and your mother that you are seeking righteousness by works?
You don't think that you honour your parents because you love them, you think it is for righteousness by works?

I honour mine because I love them, and because OF righteousness, not FOR righteousness.

maybe you do yours for righteousness
---francis on 12/27/12


Read this in your Bibles Revelation 14:12HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD from now on: Yes, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, AND THEIR WORKS DO FOLLOW THEM.

What could this possibly mean? why would we need to hear these words?
How are we blessed by understanding them?

Anyone can say they have the faith of Jesus the Son of God, does that mean that they really have it? how can one know for sure? THEY PRODUCE FRUIT FROM THAT TREE!!! Without faith we cannot keep the commandments of God. BUT with faith all things are possible
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/27/12


"The "royal law" of what? From the verses you quoted in Romans 13:9 and James 2:8, it seems your "royal law" is to be justified by works, is it not?"
Why don't you tell us another of your fairy tales of what those verses mean? James called "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" the royal law according to the scripture.
You have a problem with what he said? You also have a problem then with those who murder, fornicate adulterate,etc., that they "shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
right? It was Paul who said the latter.

The taskmaster, he shall judge the task, be it 'perfect' or 'just'- Romans 14:4, 2 Corinthians 5:10.
---Nana on 12/27/12


nana, to answer your question, yes we are accountable to the royal law. we achieve this only through the fruit of the Spirit which is not of us, but Jesus through us. we are but broken vessels that the Lord fills and shines through.
---aka on 12/27/12


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"Is not every christian accountable of fulfilling the royal law?" Nana

The "royal law" of what? From the verses you quoted in Romans 13:9 and James 2:8, it seems your "royal law" is to be justified by works, is it not? I'm sure it is or you wouldn't have quoted Romans 13:9 with such as one who's a works monger advocate.

The very same apostle that wrote Romans 13:9 also wrote, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." And I'm sure Paul didn't contradict himself but rather tell us your understanding of salvation is definitely erroneous.
---christan on 12/27/12


---Haz27 on 12/26/12
It appears that you have a conprehension problem. Can you post anywhere that I have posted any such thing as righteousness by works?
---francis on 12/27/12


As Christians we should:
Matt22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In loving our Lord we should:
Rom12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
< Should we keep the 10 commandments? Yes. Are we saved by works? No. Eph 2:8

Also, as Christians we should honor the Lord with the first fruits on the Lord's day (Sunday), and we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Heb 10:25
---trey on 12/27/12


First you are mistranslating these verses. We are all sinners. Without the law there is no sin. So the law must exist or we would not be sinners.

When you obey the Ten commandments that is not disobeying the Ten Commandments. Which is what you are saying.

Our righteouness is not found by obeying the law. To think that obdience brings righteouness is backwards. We are Born Again by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT and turn from living in sin to following JESUS. So when we do not steal. It is because of our love for others.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/12


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So Haz why do you think John was a false teacher? After all he contridicts you directly.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/27/12


this is for you HAZ and not my words but the GOSPELS words, so argue with the WORD

Romans 2:13
for NOT the HEARERS of the law are JUST before God BUT the DOERS of the law shall be JUSTIFIED

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelations 22:
12And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his WORK shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
---jacqueline_Green on 12/27/12


Hi J Green. You quote Rom 6:15-19.
Let's consider it.

"his servants you are to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

A servant of sin is one who is under law (10 commandments). They make themselves transgressors/sinners (Gal 2:18, Rom 3:19, James 2:10).

Those in obedience are those who obey the gospel (believe in Jesus). Their faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5) hence they are servants of righteousness.

As you preach justification by deeds of the law, have you kept the law PERFECTLY every day since receiving Christ?

Francis, for example, continuously disobeys it, yet he preaches condemnation for disobedience. Does your position differ from his?
---Haz27 on 12/26/12


James 2:

14What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body, what does it profit?

17Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19You believe that there is one God, you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

20But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/27/12


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Romans 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

James 2:8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

Is not every christian accountable of fulfilling the royal law?
---Nana on 12/27/12


Francis. The doctrine you follow is what scripture has warned many times against. You preach justification by works of the law. This is unbelief and frustrates the grace of God.

By what measure you judge you to will be judged. You preach of condemnation for those who continually fail to obey, yet you continually fail obey yourself.

Your continual disobedience of the law and your opposition to the gospel of grace only discredits your position.
---Haz27 on 12/26/12


Hebrew 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The house of Israel is all of us now who accept Christ as our Savior, the laws are Gods LAW OF LOVE, the ten commandments, and the new covenant is CHRIST. If these LAWS are written on our hearts and in our minds, then how can we ignore them? If they are written on our hearts, that changes our heart from one of deceit to one of truth. And if not the ten commandments then what would he write on our hearts? What other law could he be speaking of?
---jacqueline_Green on 12/26/12


"How did the divine, the spirit of Christ get into us" francis

Galatians 4:6 is not how you receive the Spirit but rather after you've received the Spirit. This must first happen: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Question: can one choose to be born of the Spirit? Christ replied, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So the answer is NO!

Paul reaffirms, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
---christan on 12/26/12


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Jerry. All unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.

So Rom 2:12 shows even those without law of righteousness shall perish without it. They're unrighteous (sin),and ALL sin results in death.

And those under law, such as legalists we see today, they will be judged by the law, and found to be transgressors/sinners (Gal 2:18, James 2:10, Rom 3:19) and condemned to death. They profess to know Christ, but by their works they deny him, Tit 1:16.

As you seek justification by deeds of law I ask, have you obeyed it PERFECTLY, every day since receiving Christ?
Remember ONLY PAST sin was remitted, Rom 3:25. There is NO MORE sacrifice for subsequent sins as once we're Christian we have "CEASED from sin", 1Pet 4:1.
---Haz27 on 12/26/12


Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/26/12


Haz27 your arguement that we are not obligated to keep the law or what you call under the law is not new

Jeremiah 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

Jeremiah 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not,

Jeremiah 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

This is an old old old arguement already refuted by God in Jeremiah and john
---francis on 12/26/12


Jerry, you gave, (Rom. 2:12 and 13) which is speaking of people who do not have Christ. One is Israel who had the law, the others are Gentiles who didn't either. If they could keep the law perfect they would be justified. But none could. They needed Christ Jesus. (Rom. 3:24) tells us that believers are:
"being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed"
When you give a passage, at least give the right interpretation. We are been justified freely by His Grace. There is no works of righteous deeds involve.
---Mark_V. on 12/26/12


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Seg, you severely are mixing the mosaic law with the of LOVEChrist tells us If we love him We will keep his commandments. Are calling Christ a liar?
If we are saved thru FAITH then OUR FRUIT will be of that same fiber
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/26/12


Amen Francismatt 5,19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/26/12


Francis. "Imparted" righteousness is man's error doctrine. It's not in scripture.
---Haz27 on 12/25/12

IMPART: to grant a part or share

Romans 8:9 the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Romans 8:10 if Christ be in you

2 Corinthians 13:5 Jesus Christ is in you

Colossians 1:27 Christ in you

2 Peter 1:4 ye might be PARTAKERS of the divine nature,
Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith,BY FAITH


How did the divine, the spirit of Christ get into us:
Galatians 4:6 God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
( it was giving, bestoweed or IMPARTED by God we did not put it there,) this imparted righteousness
---francis on 12/26/12


Haz: "we're justified WITHOUT deeds/obedience to law"

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

Pinning your hopes of salvation on deliberate disobedience to God is risky business.


---jerry6593 on 12/26/12


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Phil, you flatter yourself by thinking you're being persecuted or chided for your denial that Christ came to redeem those whom His Father has given to Him in the redemption of their sins.

And the biggest hypocrisy of them all is you still claim yourself to be a Christian when you don't even believe that Christ's purpose on earth was to "die for the sins of His people". Which at this point, I think it's appropriate to mention what Christ declared,

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."
---christan on 12/25/12


Francis. "Imparted" righteousness is man's error doctrine. It's not in scripture.

2Pet 1:3, you misunderstand "godliness", thinking its obedience to law.
Instead it refers to Christ in us (1Tim3:16, 1Tim 4:8)

1John 3:7. How do we do righteousness?
Rom 4:5, our faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 2:13 speaks of those under law. Yet Christians have the law written in their hearts as Christ (our inward man) delights in the law (Rom 7:22). As our life is hid with Christ, (Col 3:3) thus we are justified as doers of the law.

But under legalism, your not a doer of the law (considering your consenting support for liberals agenda on killing babies and also not keeping Sabbath properly)

---Haz27 on 12/25/12


---christan on 12/25/12

Deflection in the place of honesty.

Chiding in place of accountability.

Malice instead of edification.

Wonderful traits, none from the Spirit of Life.

You are known, and will be even more so at the dais of Christ.
---Phil on 12/25/12


Phil

Do you even know that the very heart of the Gospel can be summed up as "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The law and grace in one breath.

1. Christ died at Calvary not because He sinned but because He was the "sacrificial lamb" to make the atonement that was demanded of by God when one sin against Him.

2. Hence His death was for only His people on their behalf, because of the "penalty" imposed when one sin against God.

3. If you're not His elect, He NEVER died for you and that "penalty of sin" still hangs over your head and eternal death beckons.
---christan on 12/25/12


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---Haz27 on 12/25/12
IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is given when we believe his promise by faith. It is the perfect life / righteousness of Jesus credited to us.
Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS is the righteousness given to us by God TO ENABLE US to keep ALL his Laws. It is CHRIST IN YOU 2 Peter 1:3-4 That makes it possible for us to keep his commandments

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 12/25/12


Francis: Under your doctrine you reject righteous by faith. You insist righteousness be proved by works of law. Thus being under the law you make yourself a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18) as you fail to keep it PERFECTLY, James 2:10.

Apart from your not keeping Sabbath correctly, consider also your consenting support for the liberals agenda on abortion/killing over 2,800 babies a day in USA (in spite of the law saying don't kill). Paul likewise, under the law, did the same consenting to killing.
Acts 22:20 " And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death"

With such a record of disobedience to the law, where do you stand under the legalism you trust in?
---Haz27 on 12/25/12


Francis. Should a Christian do wrong, is it "sin"?
Answer: NO.

To "sin" means you're under the law for righteousness. Thus you're seeking to establish your own righteousness (refusing to submit God's righteousness, Rom 10:3)
"Sin" results in death. And as ONLY PAST sin was remitted (Rom 3:25) you can't sacrifice Christ again for subsequent sins.

For Christians though, our body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:10,Rom 6:6. Hence we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.

"Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies", Rom 8:33

So why do you charge those God justified, with "sin"?
Why do you call unclean what God has cleansed?
---Haz27 on 12/25/12


"We are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Failure to correctly divide the word is where this start from." Phil

For goodness sake, take your head out of the hole you have buried in the ground. How many times must you be reminded that the Epistles were written and directed at the Gentiles? For if it was only about and for the Jews, the Gentiles should not even be bothered to read the Scriptures at all.

"you fail to honestly provide where the usage of "penalty for sins" is located."

Like I've shown you earlier, seem like you're truly blind to see what's written, so it'll be a waste of time to show them again unless God open your eyes.
---christan on 12/25/12


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1Pt 2:24--christan on 12/24/12

1Pt 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

We are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Failure to correctly divide the word is where this start from.

Secondly, you fail to honestly provide where the usage of "penalty for sins" is located.

Continue as an obdurate one, that truth may shine forth from those who are called and chosen.
---Phil on 12/25/12


Jerry. You use Phil 4:13 out of context. Note it speaks of being content, whatever state your in.

And what are Jesus' commandments?
Believe in Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23. Confirmed in Jesus' own words:
John 6:47 "he who believes in Me has everlasting life."
John 13:34 "A NEW commandment I give unto, That ye love one another"

John 16:27 "the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God."
Note here obedience to the law is NOT included. And the thief on the cross also confirms we're justified WITHOUT deeds/obedience to law.

Since law requires PERFECT obedience, have you obeyed it PERFECTLY every day since receiving Christ?
---Haz27 on 12/25/12


"Christ alone is MY righteousness, and I show my gratitude by obedience." jerry

And you are going to tell us that you have "perfectly" kept all the commandments of God ever since?

"How do you show your gratitude to Him? By disobedience?"

Gratitude? Is that what God is seeking for in the sinner after He has saved him from his sins? Is He that hard-up for you gratitude? The very words you should be using is "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.".
---christan on 12/25/12


I'm saying that in Christ we are righteous, holy, perfected, and cannot sin.
---Haz27 on 12/24/12

Still trying to understand you. Are you saying that a christian is INCAPABLE OF:


Exodus 20:3 having other gods.

Exodus 20:4 making graven image, and bowing down to them,

Exodus 20:7 taking the name of the LORD thy God in vain,

Exodus 20:8 Forgetting the sabbath day,

Exodus 20:12 disHonouring their father and thy mother:

Exodus 20:13 killing.

Exodus 20:14 committing adultery.

Exodus 20:15 stealing.

Exodus 20:16 bearing false witness.

Exodus 20:17coveting

or are you saying that even when christian do these things it is not sin?
---francis on 12/25/12


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Haz: "How can you possibly become righteous by works of the law then? YOU CAN'T."

I agree! But ...

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Christ alone is MY righteousness, and I show my gratitude by obedience.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How do you show your gratitude to Him? By disobedience?

Once again I ask:

What LAW did Christ write into your heart under the New Covenant?
---jerry6593 on 12/25/12


Francis. No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that in Christ we are righteous, holy, perfected, and cannot sin. That is ONLY because we are in Christ. It is not determined by the physical efforts because if it was then none would saved.

To sin means your UNDER the law and transgressing it. Gal 2:18 says that if we rebuild the things we destroyed (the old man lusts of self-righteousness by works of law) then we make ourselves transgressors/sinners (because we would fail to attain PERFECT obedience)

Under your doctrine you do not see Christians as righteous unless they obey the law and repent of transgressions (which is not even supported in scripture).
---Haz27 on 12/24/12


amen jerry, you hit the nail on the head. Christ did suffer unspeakable torture for me and you and the whole world. neither does God choose to save a certain bunch who call themselves the elect. Christ died for every single human and all they have to do is believe in their heart and confess their sin.
---shira4368 on 12/24/12


Jerry. The fact remains that you fail to obey the commandments PERFECTLY, as is required (James 2:10).

Under the law ALL are guilty before God, Rom 3:19

How can you possibly become righteous by works of the law then? YOU CAN'T.

Hence Christians are under the more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness. Our righteousness is by faith.
So Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for righteousness.

Our inward man (Christ) delights after the law, (Rom 7:22). And our life is hid in Christ in God (Col 3:3).

So why then go back under the law to judge if your righteous or not? To do that you make yourself a sinner (Gal 2:18) and deny Christ.
---Haz27 on 12/24/12


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"Nowhere does the Bible make this statement, that He paid the "penalty" for our sins." Phil

Then Christ never died for you and "sin lieth at the door".

And you think that Christ was nailed to the cross and His death was for what purpose? "Nowhere"? Try these for starters:

"...thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

What do you think these Scriptures were implying?
---christan on 12/24/12


Haz27, I am trying to understand you.
let me try again.
Are you saying that because we accept Jesus and thus God we obey him by believing in him, and because we believing in him we keep all ten commandments.
we do not keep the ten commandments to be saved, but rather because we are saved from the sin of breaking the law in the first place.
because we understand that God sent Jesus to die on the cross to save us from the law of sin and death: after all the wages of sin is death, we then no longer wish to live in sin, so we through the power of the holy ghost keep all ten commandments. If per chance we should fall short of any of them, we seek God's forgiveness, we repent and are forgiven.

Is that what you are saying?
---francis on 12/24/12


Nowhere does the Bible make this statement, that He paid the "penalty" for our sins.

The Scriptures do not teach this. It is the man-made "Substitution" doctrine, and false.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Death is the penalty of sin. And we already are dying. His sacrifice brought life to light. No penalty is mentioned, as all die, regardless.

Jesus preached revocable pardon of sins. Paul preached justification completely from sin.

If one chooses to believe the former, the curse of the Law and the veil is activated.

Those who are Christ's body are justified from sin, beyond needing pardon.
---Phil on 12/24/12


Francis: Your question is misleading. You preach the law of sin/death (ministry of death/condemnation, 2Cor 3:7). It requires PERFECT obedience (which you've failed and stand condemned). Death is its penalty. Those under it refuse to submit to the righteousness of God.

BUT, Christians are under the more glorious ministry of righteousness/Spirit. We obey His commandments to BELIEVE in Jesus and love one another.
And in believing in Jesus we're in fact not believing in Jesus but in God (John 12:44). Hence there is no worshiping of other gods.

And when we fail to act in love, we're disciplined. Although we're at different stages of growth and still not perfect, this has no bearing on our righteousness, as we're righteous in Christ.
---Haz27 on 12/24/12


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Haz & Phil: What you guys are preaching is another gospel. The true gospel is that Jesus came to pay the penalty for our transgression of His LAW. He commanded that this very same gospel be taken "into all the world" - Gentiles included. To say that some people are excluded from salvation is the same as the false gospel the predestinationalists believe - that only the elect can be saved.

You ask if I keep the Commandments perfectly. Of course not. But I believe that it is possible through Christ's strength. This is the "good fight of faith" and the "race for the prize" that Paul spoke of.

What LAW did Christ write into your hearts under the New Covenant?

---jerry6593 on 12/24/12


Haz27 on 12/23/12

very very simple question to help me underand more clearly what you are saying.

All I need is a yes, or no answer, but feel free to elaborate:

Can you steal, murder, and commit adultery, dishonor your parents, covet, take God's name in vain, not keep the sabbath, swear falsely, and burn incense unto other gods, And come and stand before God in this house, which is called by His name, and say, We are not under the law, and are free to do all these things?
---francis on 12/23/12


Francis: Jer 7 speaks of Jews under the law (ministry of death/condemnation). They refused to submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3

And remember the law was a tutor that leads to Christ, Gal 3:24.
But after FAITH has come, "we are NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR", Gal 3:25

Hence we cannot be charged with "sin".
Christians have submitted to God's righteousness instead, by faith. We are under the more glorious ministry of Spirit/righteousness.

We obey his commands.
Believe in Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23

So why do you say Christians can still be charged with sin when God has justified us, Rom 8:33? What God has cleansed we should not call unclean.
---Haz27 on 12/23/12


Jerry said: "salvation is power to OBEY the LAW"

Question. Since you received Christ have you PERFECTLY obeyed the law in every detail every day since then?
Remember, to offend in ONE point you are guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10.

Remember, ONLY PAST sin was remitted on the cross, Rom 3:25. You can't crucify Christ again for subsequent sins.

And what about Rom 8:33? Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies.
But you contradict this and say Christians are STILL CHARGED with sin.

You should not call unclean what God has cleansed (Acts 10:15,28).
---Haz27 on 12/23/12


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Jesus came to save us from our SINS, and sin is the transgression of God's LAW---jerry6593 on 12/23/12

This statement applies to the Jews only.

The Gentiles never were under the Law.

Mt 1:21 ...for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

He was not sent to the whole world. On earth, He has only one who are called "His people".

In the celestial realm, neither Jew nor Gentile exist.

His death was sufficient for all sins of all people, being the perfect sacrifice. He gave Himself as a ransom for all who believe on Him through faith.

Salvation is not "from our sins", but from death and the wrath to come.
---Phil on 12/23/12


---Haz27 on 12/23/12

very very simple question to help me underand more clearly what you are saying.

All I need is a yes, or no answer, but feel free to elaborate:

Jeremiah 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not, And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
---francis on 12/23/12


I find it ironic that some Christians claim to be above God's LAW (not subject to it) because they are "saved" or "under the New Covenant". Salvation from what? Jesus came to save us from our SINS, and sin is the transgression of God's LAW. So salvation is power to OBEY the LAW - not to disobey it. In the New Covenant, God writes His LAW in our hearts (minds). Doesn't that make our minds in conflict with God if we purposely break His LAW?

Didn't Jesus say that His LAW would remain in effect as long as heaven and earth remain? Didn't He also say that those who teach disobedience to the LAW are called "least" in heaven?
---jerry6593 on 12/23/12


Francis, you don't understand the Christian position.

Sin is transgression of the law, 1Jo 3:4
But Christians are NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Hence Christians CANNOT be charged with "sin".

Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies. Rom 8:33.
Why do you contradict God and say Christians are still charged with sin?

As ONLY PAST sin was remitted (Rom 3:25), this means there is NO MORE sin now for those in Christ. We've CEASED from sin (1Pet 4:1), CANNOT sin (1John3:9) in him, as in him there is NO sin (1John 3:5)

You should not call unclean what God has cleansed (Acts 10:15,28).
---Haz27 on 12/23/12


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This is the position of those who do not keep the ten commandments:

Jeremiah 7:9 steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not, And come and stand before God in His house, which is called by His name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

they say that they are free from the law, especially the commandment to keep the sabbath

THIS IS THE CHRISTIAN POSITION:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin, we christians confess our sin, and repent, and we are forgiven
---francis on 12/22/12


Much of this comes from sectarian and denominational thinking. Those who consider themselves belonging to a particular church or fellowship of believers are "out of the way", not perceiving the body of Christ.

Paul considered himself sectarian while a Jew. All who follow the Law of Moses and the Lords commandments are sectarian, not believing the last apostle chosen by God to reveal Himself to.

It is the failure to give Paul the Apostle his correct place in the plan of God as our apostle and minister.

The Lord taught and required keeping the Law and more. We are not His disciples.

We are His Son's body, under no commandments other than obedience to faith's workings in our dead bodies.
---Phil on 12/22/12


FofC: You say we learn to "overcome and obey" the law.
Your incorrect.
Instead scripture confirms it's we "obey" the gospel and thus we overcome.
"Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God" 1John 5:5

Jerry: You quote scriptures on how Jesus kept the law. Yet even the legalists here fail to do this.
Praise God our life is hid with Christ instead (Col 3:3) otherwise we all would be "least".

Francis: We all know that after you received Christ you failed to keep the law PERFECTLY. As ONLY PAST sin was remitted on the cross (Rom 3:25) all your subsequent sins leaves you condemned under your doctrine.
---Haz27 on 12/22/12


what makes people think that if we are saved by faith and faith without works is dead, that we wouldn't keep the 10 commandments of God?
---Jacqueline_Green on 12/21/12

SIMPLE ANSWER

If they kept ALL TEN commandments, they would also have to keep the sabbath which is the fourth commandment.

this means that they would have to confess to God that they have sinned.

This means that they would have to admit to themselves that what they are being taugtht in church is to live with some sin

THE ANSWER IS PRIDE
Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
---francis on 12/22/12


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The 10 commandments are for believers. Believers are called to obey the Lord Jesus and seek to change their former sinners life to a life of obedience to Gods 10 holy laws. The unconverted do not understand this because they are not called to obey. They are led by Satan to believe they can practice lasciviousness (lawless, breaking Gods laws) without consequence. In other words they are deceived to believe they are no longer a sinner because they said the name of the Lord, yet they can continue to live a sinners life (unconverted). Believers understand at conversion we can only obey through the strength of the Lord Jesus, not be our own righteousness. It is through the holy spirit working in our lives that we learn to overcome and obey.
---Follower_of_Christ on 12/22/12


Jacqueline, note Josef's post about the law. We are not under it for righteousness.

And yes, faith without works is dead.
What are our works?
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

Anyone under the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, then by these works of the law they deny Jesus. They are in unbelief.

Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to anyone that believes, Rom 10:4
---Haz27 on 12/22/12


Some Christians think that they are exempt from keeping the Ten Commandments because they believe in Christ. But what does Christ say?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


---jerry6593 on 12/22/12


Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?
Why go ye about to kill me?

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision, (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers,) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken, are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment!


Mat_12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Luk_6:37!
Peace
---TheSeg on 12/21/12


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Our Father in Heaven,

i confess the sins of my Fathers and me, we had other gods by worshiped ourselves and our churches rather than You.

We enjoyed images of statues, tv,and internet, we idolized Pastors, sports and rock stars.

We took Your name in vain in many ways, we profaned Your Sabbaths,we commited adultery against You by weaving pagan things with Yours.

We stole by taking things that were not ours.

We did't honor our parents in many ways.

We bore false witness by misinterpreting You and others and telling it to others,

We did'nt love You or others as You commanded.

Please have mercy on us all! In the name of the one true Christ, Yashua the Anointed Messiah, the real Jesus, Amen
---jmarc on 12/21/12


Revelation 12:17 the remnant .. keep the commandments of God, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but (what is important is) the keeping of the commandments of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man
---francis on 12/21/12


Jacqueline "The law is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers." 1Ti 1:9 ESV Besides, "the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:24 And "we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Rom 3:19 Trust Father's Spirit rather than what you think you can do through you own strength or force of will. Love fulfills the law, Rom 13:10>Rom 13:8>Gal 5:14>Jam 2:8 and it is he that empowers that love. Rom 5:5
---Josef on 12/21/12


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