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Do We Go To Heaven

If we go to heaven as spirits when we die, why does Christ say that He will return to take us to where He is?

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 ---jerry6593 on 1/9/13
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This is Jehovah's Witness belief - resurrection to spirit, not flesh.---StrongAxe on 1/16/13

It is also what the scriptures teach.

1C 15:42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is roused in incorruption.

Deathlessness and incorruption are identical.

It is resurrection to immortality, which only can be had by spiritual beings, not fleshly bodies. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1C 15:44 It is sown a soulish body, it is roused a spiritual body.

All Israel shall be resurrected to mortal life from their graves. Some to eonian [everlasting] life on earth, others to Gehenna fire. Dn 12:13 Ezk 37:12 Mt 10:28 Jn 5:28-29
---Phil on 1/17/13


Follower, everything you said was false from the very beginning. With the exceptiong of #4:

1. "Bible is a coded book Isaiah 28:10, verses added later. (False).

2. It is appointed once for all men to die, all go to hell (like the Lord did), then the resurrection of all in Christ. Hebrews 9:27 Acts 2:31 John 5:28,29 Dan 12:2, 1 Corin 15:22-24: (false)

3. Death is the grave not heaven: Gen 3:19, Ecc 12:7, Psalms 104:29: false. (False).

4. Sadly, the unconverted refuse to study choosing lies over truth. (True).
---Mark_V. on 1/17/13


Haz: Now I see. You're a founding member of the Church of Haz, and your primary theology is "salvation by SDA bashing". Good luck with that in the judgement.


---jerry6593 on 1/17/13


"Bible is a coded book Isaiah 28:10, verses added later." FOC

And I'm sure you're going to tell us next that Dan Brown is the author of the Bible. Since when is the Bible or let alone the book of Isaiah coded? You've been deceived into thinking it's coded and that's because the veil on your heart has still not been removed by God Almighty.

Read carefully what God declared through Isaiah 48:16, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

Does it sound like God "coded" the Bible? Far be from it!
---christan on 1/16/13


Jerry6593: SDA's separate "THE" law into separate laws twisting scripture to fit their doctrine. Many here on CN have shown you the error of this.

SDA obsession with the 10 commandments is based on following the old ministry of condemnation/death that was done away with (2cor 3:7).

SDA's FAIL to perfectly obey the law.
SDA's avoid discussion on their failure to perfectly obey the law.

BTW, the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" is God's example that confirms the scriptures given through Paul.
Both of these and the whole Bible contradict SDA doctrine.

To answer your question, I'm not in any denomination.
---Haz27 on 1/16/13




The Lord stated the parables were done to hide the understanding. Mark 4:10-12


When an unconverted mind takes the parable of Lazarus and rich man literally it has many holes. This was done deliberately by the Lord as he stated in Mark 4:12. The holes are then filled in by the wrong teachings that contradict the Lord and Apostles. Yet those without understanding will insist the story is true even though they are simultaneously rejecting the teachings on death and the resurrection of all in Christ. When the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is properly understood as a parable it does not contradict the plain teachings of death, salvation, judgement, and the resurrection at the Lords return.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/16/13


Follower_of_Christ:

You said: When the Lord returns to earth to rule Gods Kingdom from Jerusalem we will be resurrected to spirit and live eternally with him.

This is Jehovah's Witness belief - resurrection to spirit, not flesh.

Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

1 Corinthians 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection. One tree doesn't bear two kinds of fruit (flesh once, spirit subsequently).

Perhaps Follower_of_the_Watchtower is more accurate?
---StrongAxe on 1/16/13


Bible is a coded book Isaiah 28:10, verses added later.

It is appointed once for all men to die, all go to hell (like the Lord did), then the resurrection of all in Christ. Hebrews 9:27 Acts 2:31 John 5:28,29 Dan 12:2, 1 Corin 15:22-24

Death is the grave not heaven: Gen 3:19, Ecc 12:7, Psalms 104:29

Sadly, the unconverted refuse to study choosing lies over truth.

4 different hells in holy scripture: sheol/hades, tartaros, gehenna, (3 have very different meanings) all translated to one word (hell) in english translation..

When the Lord returns to earth to rule Gods Kingdom from Jerusalem we will be resurrected to spirit and live eternally with him.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/16/13


"Our "spirit" is on loan." Phil

???????? "on loan"? Did you get a "loan" of your spirit from the car mart or maybe Best Buy? The further we go on with this topic, the more you sound like the creators of Merry Melodies. Even then, they make more sense then you.

"Until then, we have the earnest, the pledge, of the Holy Spirit in us."

Until then? When? Isn't one who's "born of the Spirit" has the Spirit already in-dwelling in the Christian while he's still in the flesh? That's what being "born of the Spirit" means! Goodness gracious, how many times do you expect to be "born of the Spirit"?????
---christan on 1/16/13


The story of the rich man and lazarous in just as truth as
the story of...which were all parables told at the same teaching
---francis on 1/15/13

Really? Name one thing in the other stories that you know is incorrect and can be proved incorrect from Scripture. I bet you cannot.

Jesus does not need to make stuff up when He teaches. He does not need to make talking sheep or floating coins or use anything false when He teaches.

And He did not need to describe two mens death in a false fairy tale way. He told the truth about life after death when we told the story. Jesus should know about life after death, since He created both.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/16/13




Notice how - THE LOST SHEEP, LOST COIN and the PRODIGAL SON are all mentioned in one particular chapter of Luke 15 and it starts with Jesus saying: "And He spake this parable unto them, saying," They are connected in context.
... Now show us where in Luke 16:19-31,...
---christan on 1/15/13

In your mind, did Jesus pause after Luke 15:32 and say " Ok Now New Chapter?"

This is how luke 16 starts Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples

which shows it was the very same day, the very same teaching, and Jesus was continuing with a series of parables to include the rich man and lazarus
---francis on 1/16/13


RichardC: 1 Cor 5:8 is an expression used several times by Paul, and is somewhat equivalent to our "I'm with you in spirit". For example:

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit ...

Consider that the "body" of Christ is the church, and that while he was on travel, Paul walked with Christ in his heart. Thus he was absent from the body, but present with the Lord. This interpretation is consistent with the rest of scripture. Yours is not.


---jerry6593 on 1/16/13


Jn 14:2 In My Father's house are many abodes, yet, if not, I would have told you, for I am going to make ready a place for you.

The redemptive work of Christ made possible the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Our bodies will be the dwelling place of God when we are resurrected from death.

Until then, we have the earnest, the pledge, of the Holy Spirit in us. One day God Himself will indwell us, as He did in His Son on earth.

No one goes to heaven at death. No one has ascended to heaven but the Son of God. All are dead, or the resurrection is past already. Such thinking is heresy.

Our "spirit" is on loan. It is dead in trespasses and sin. It belongs to God, the Father of spirits, not us.
---Phil on 1/16/13


francis, for the umpteen time, the beggar Lazarus and the rich man isn't a parable.

Notice how - THE LOST SHEEP, LOST COIN and the PRODIGAL SON are all mentioned in one particular chapter of Luke 15 and it starts with Jesus saying: "And He spake this parable unto them, saying," They are connected in context.

THE SOWER: "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow..." Matthew 13:3

THE WHEAT & TARES: "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying," Matthew 13:24

The list goes on. Now show us where in Luke 16:19-31, it says what Christ was telling us is a parable? Heaven and hell does not need to be told in parables.
---christan on 1/15/13


So then, Jesus lied?
---Mark_Eaton on 1/15/13
The story of the rich man and lazarous in just as truth as
the story of:
1: The Lost sheep
2: Lost coin
3: Prodigal son
which were all parables told at the same teaching
---francis on 1/15/13


"Actually, there are three possibilties" StrongAxe

We're not discussing about "possibilities" but whether the Scripture in Luke 16:19-31 mentions the beggar Lazarus and the rich man was a parable? Anyways, why would it be a parable? Even the pagans, heathens and other religions believe there's a hell.

"Not always. Also, Jesus said I am the vine, and he was very clearly speaking in metaphor, even though he didn't SAY he was (i.e. Jesus was a man, NOT a plant!)."

John 15 is a parable? You had better go learn the meaning of a parable and a metaphor. There's a great difference to what they mean and how they are being used.
---christan on 1/15/13


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"This is talking about the Apocalypse, NOT the Bible itself. John's Gospel and other epistles had yet to be written." Cluny

Ya right! So you might as well hold on to sixty-six separate books and not read the Holy Bible as One, if your understanding is even correct.

What you are saying is one book has nothing to do with another, which in accordance to Scriptures is definitely a lie. And that's because the Holy Bible, aka the Word of God is all about One glorious person in the name of JESUS CHRIST.

And that in your comment, you have failed to acknowledge. So for all your signing off in your blogs with "Glory to Jesus Christ" is nothing but hypocrisy of the highest level.
---christan on 1/15/13


Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
---francis on 1/15/13


So there is no way this prince, this rich man, could have any thoughts...Nor could the rich man have memories of his loved ones
---francis on 1/15/13

So then, Jesus lied?

Jesus, the Creator of all things, who knows and has seen The Father, higher than any angel, told a story of completely made-up stuff which He knew was totally false?

I cannot and will not accept this as fact. For Jesus to be the acceptable sacrifice, Jesus could not sin. If this story is not true, then telling it even as a parable would constitute sin because Jesus knew it to not be true.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/15/13


---Mark_Eaton on 1/15/13
The authenticity of the story of the righ man and lazarous is the exact same as that of:
1: The Lost sheep
2: Lost coin
3: Prodigal son
which were all parables told at the same teaching

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

So there is no way this prince, this rich man, could have any thoughts

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Nor could the rich man have memories of his loved ones
---francis on 1/15/13


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There is five or six parables in a row starting at chapter 15 through 17, only with the first one is the word parable mention
---francis on 1/15/13

Call it what you want but answer this.

Did Jesus dispute the idea of Abrahams Bosom or that the angels carried Lazarus there or that the rich man was in torment in flames or that both were conscious after death?

In other words, did Jesus lie about the contents of the story or that the contents of the story are fabrications of Jesus imagination?
---Mark_Eaton on 1/15/13


christan:

You said: Until you can show me in the verses of Luke 16:19-31 that Jesus Christ said what He was talking about was a parable the Word of God calls you a liar and an unbeliever.

Actually, there are three possibilties:
1) If the Bible says something, and you agree, you're faithful
2) If the Bible says something, and you disagree, you're an unbeliever
3) If the Bible doesn't say one way or other, your opinion is a matter of interpretation, NOT doctrine.

For if it was a parable, Christ will always say so before He starts.

Not always. Also, Jesus said I am the vine, and he was very clearly speaking in metaphor, even though he didn't SAY he was (i.e. Jesus was a man, NOT a plant!).
---StrongAxe on 1/14/13


SOUL AND SPIRIT ARE NOT THE SAME

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

BODY + BREATH OF GOD ( SPIRIT) = SOUL ( live human person)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

BODY- BREATH OF GOD = DEATH ( NO SOUL)

So it is the breath of God which Goes back to God.
Bible reference ( yield up the ghost, not yield up the soul)

Acts 2:29 David, he is both dead and buried,...For David is not ascended into the heavens:
---francis on 1/15/13


Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

1: The Lost sheep ( the word parable is mentioned) Luke 15:3
2: Lost coin ( no mention of parable before this one) Luke 15:8
3: Prodigal son ( no mention of parable before this one)Luke 15:11
4: Wise stewart ( no mention of parable there, but he said: Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, so we know that the parable continue.
5: Rich man and Lazarus ( no mention of parable there Luke 16:19

Jesus taught the crouds in parables. There is five or six parables in a row starting at chapter 15 through 17, only with the first one is the word parable mention

Now I know that Jesus did not stop after Luke 15 and say" O.K. New chapter.
---francis on 1/15/13


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\\"The parable of Luke 16 is a parable, not one word states the beggar went to eternal hell." FOC\\

Well, he sure wasn't in heaven. And he sure wasn't in soul sleep.

**"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book".**

This is talking about the Apocalypse, NOT the Bible itself. John's Gospel and other epistles had yet to be written.

**And there are "four hells"? Maybe you should take your "stories" to Hollywood.
---christan on 1/14/13**

There are four words in the Bible that are rendered "hell". They mean at least two different things among them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 1/15/13


The Lord returns to earth to set up the Kingdom of God AFTER the tribulation, not before.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/14/13

I cannot accept all of this.

Luke 17:20-21 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation, nor will they say, See here! or See there! For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Mark 1:15 "and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Each believer has the kingdom of God in them and is part of the kingdom of God. The thief on the cross is definitely part of the kingdom of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/15/13


"The parable of Luke 16 is a parable, not one word states the beggar went to eternal hell." FOC

Until you can show me in the verses of Luke 16:19-31 that Jesus Christ said what He was talking about was a parable the Word of God calls you a liar and an unbeliever. For if it was a parable, Christ will always say so before He starts.

You want to add the word "parable" in Luke 16:19-31, that's your problem but you've been warned: "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book".

And there are "four hells"? Maybe you should take your "stories" to Hollywood.
---christan on 1/14/13


Jerry 6593 0n 1/14/13 - Grasping at Straws ? -------

I totally Know were your Coming from, But at this point I don't agree with it. I believe when a person dies there soul goes to be with Christ - On the Last day they get a new Body, Ecclesiates 9:5 - I think is dealing with the spiritual - living and dead, The way you have the gospel, it has a contradiction in it, with --------- 2 Corinthians 5:8 ------- And That can not Be.

John 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, believes thou this?

Mark 12:27 - He is not a God of the dead, but a God of the living , ye therefore do great err.
---RICHARDC on 1/14/13


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Christian, Like I said many times there are Christians and there are Paulites!
Since you believe that every word Paul wrote is inspired,makes you a Paulite!
even though Christ denounced Pharisees as from the devil!
Jesus had 12 Apostles,Judas was replaced by Mathias, Luke's name is not among them!(your error) Translators cannot say for certain that Luke even wrote the book (look it up)
But what do you care as long as it is between Gen.1 and Rev.22.21 it's Holy writ!
BTW The "inspred group" that declared scripture as canon also included the Apocripha (no longer included)
---1st_cliff on 1/14/13


FOC, I see you do not realize that Christ is sitting on his throne ruling over the Kingdom of Heaven at this very moment!

Heb12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Mt12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
When did it come -at the time of Christ!

Mt19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Christ is not speaking of a future time. He is speaking of right now!
---trey on 1/14/13



Luke 23:42 "And he was saying, Jesus, remember me WHEN You come in Your kingdom!"


Interesting you chose to capitalize the word WHEN.

Do you understand WHEN does not mean NOW???

The Lord returns to earth to set up the Kingdom of God AFTER the tribulation, not before.

Satan is the god of this world now, or do you believe the prince of peace (who is Christ Jesus) is ruling earth from Jerusalem now, with all of the evil, violence, and chaos??

The Lord asked his followers to pray for Gods Kingdom to COME! Why? Because we have faith he will return.

If your savior you call Jesus, as well, is here already you have no hope.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/14/13


Paul, an apostle of Christ, declared so: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"!
---christan on 1/14/13

Christan,

Does the NT tell us which books and letters are inspired? How do you know which books and letters are scripture?
---Ruben on 1/14/13


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See what a difference a little comma can make? There was no punctuation in the original. So either your interpretation is wrong, or Jesus lied to the thief.
---jerry6593 on 1/12/13

How many times does this lie have to be proven incorrect.

I care not about the punctuation. What did the thief say to Jesus?

Luke 23:42 "And he was saying, Jesus, remember me WHEN You come in Your kingdom!"

See the connection to the word "today" that Jesus says in verse 43. Jesus used the word "today" as a response to the word "when" the thief used. There are two time references in the conversation and they are connected. So punctuation does not matter, context does.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/14/13


No Heaven, not for at least 1000 years. Gods Kingdom will bo set up on this Earth and will last for 100 years. After that it will be a schocking suprise for all His chosen.
---Leo_Holley on 1/14/13


christan , better yet is the tie between luke and paul who was called beloved by peter many years later.
---aka on 1/14/13


FoC, Taken right from the mouth of satan

really Cliff?? from the mouth of Satan, you fool!! By taking your mis-use of one verse you find yourself dead-center in a lie or you are so foolish to believe David speaks from the mouth of Satan too (I don't know you choose)


Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.


I made my choice, I'll choose the Word of God through King David rather than your direct lie through an inability to correctly use holy scripture.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/14/13


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Didn't Christ tell us in Luke 16:19-31 about the beggar Lazarus who went to Paradise and the rich man to Hades after their death?

The parable of Luke 16 is a parable, not one word states the beggar went to eternal hell. There are 4 hells, he went to hell the grave, and finally, not once is paradise or heaven ever mentioned. You must make suggestion of paradise or heaven (in other words add that idea to holy scripture) that also makes you a liar who willfully ignores Gods warning to not add to his word.

btw parables are used by the Lord to hide the meaning, and when you take a parable as literal then you must also understand most of the story will have big gaping holes you will fill with lies, like you did.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/14/13


1stCliff, for starters - Luke to you isn't an apostle when Scripture clearly says he is. That's where "the part of your story is already false".

The Gospel of Luke is part of the sixty complete books of the Holy Bible consisting of the OT and the NT. More importantly, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is given to us in the form of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

You say: "Let's go one further, who declared Luke's gospel "inspired"? or who had the authority to? since you obviously believe it!"

Paul, an apostle of Christ, declared so: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"!
---christan on 1/14/13


1stCliff, I'm okay with you calling me a liar. But when it's so clearly embedded in the Holy Bible, which is not compiled by me or you, your unbelief that it's from God is clear as daylight.

The four Gospels of Jesus Christ at the beginning of the New Testament, starting with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in that order, has been around since the completion of the canon. So, let it be known that you are not challenging me but the author of the Holy Bible, which according to the apostle Paul is God inspired, ie written by the Holy Spirit through the prophets and apostles.

"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
---christan on 1/14/13


RichardC: You are grasping at straws and stretching your credibility to the breaking point. Do yourself a favor and search the Scriptures for all verses that mention death, sleep, soul, etc. Put all the ones that imply that death is an unconscious state on one side of a balance and all those that imply conscious immortality of the soul on the other. Let me know which side you find has the preponderance of Scripture behind it.


---jerry6593 on 1/14/13


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Christian, You still didn't answer my question, What part of my "story" is false?
Let's go one further, who declared Luke's gospel "inspired"? or who had the authority to?since you obviously believe it!
---1st_cliff on 1/13/13


JERRY 6593 - on 1/12/13 - With out a body we do not exist ?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 FOR THE LIVING know that they will die , but THE DEAD know not any thing, neither have they have any more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

The way I have this verse is -THE LIVING (SAVED ) Do Know there going to die . Romans 6,23 - Wages of sin is Death .---------- THE DEAD here are the (UNSAVED ) - Refer Peter 4 :6 - So now this works with - Psalm 115:17 - The Dead praise not the LORD -------->

Psalm 146,, His breath goeth forth, he returneth to the earth - in the very day his thoughts PERISH - ( Once Again the word PERISH has to do with the UNSAVED )

John 3:15 ---- ( Whosoever Believeth in him should not perish )
---RICHARDC on 1/13/13


"Luke was Greek not Jewish, he was not an apostle,there's no record of him ever meeting Christ in person" 1stCliff

Boy, I thought I've heard it all but yours is the worse of the lot for now. According to you, Luke's "not an apostle", so we should reject the Gospel of Luke, right? That's precisely what you're saying!

Honestly I do not even care if Luke was a Jew, Greek or even a Samaritan. What's important to me was he wrote 24 chapters of accounts with Jesus Christ and His ministry in the Gospel of Luke.

If that's not good enough for you, that's your problem with God, not mine.
---christan on 1/13/13


Jerry: are you saying that it was impossible for the thief who died with Christ and that he went to Paradise as promised while Christ appeared to His apostles at the same time, fulfilling His resurrection as prophesied?

Didn't Christ tell us in Luke 16:19-31 about the beggar Lazarus who went to Paradise and the rich man to Hades after their death? Was Christ even crucified at this point when He gave us a glimpse about what happens when one dies? He even tells us that Abraham and the saints are in Paradise now. So what's your problem?

Why do you confuse yourself with Christ's resurrection and where people go after they pass on from this world?
---christan on 1/13/13


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christan: Seriously! Your logic isn't. You say Christ told the thief that He would be in heaven that very day. Yet, two days later Christ tells Mary that He had not yet gone to heaven. It is YOU who makes a Christ a liar (either to the thief or to Mary) - not me. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?


---jerry6593 on 1/13/13


Follower, (1 Thess. 5:23) tells us a believer does have a spirit, soul and a body.
"Believers as human beings have a spirit, soul and body. It is with his spirit that a man worships, and may contact God. The soul includes the conscious and subconscious minds, the realm of emotions and the will. Soul gives a man personality, self-awareness, rationality and natural feeling."
The Scripture testify also to the physical charateristics of the human body of the incarnated Christ. He possessed a human rational soul and spirit. (Matt. 26:38) Jesus says
"My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" And John 13:31) we are told,
"When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit"
---Mark_V. on 1/13/13


Christian, OK ,tell me what part of this "story" is wrong!
Luke was Greek not Jewish,he was not an apostle,there's no record of him ever meeting Christ in person,and most of all ,no one corroborates this "parable" ,especially since it's the only one that gives any kind of credence to the "after life" belief!
---1st_cliff on 1/13/13


Jerry, seriously, what's there to interpret (btw it's understanding) in what Christ telling the thief before He died and John 20:17 you quoted? One was before His death and the other His resurrection.

Are you saying that because He appeared to His apostles in John 20:17 that He never went to Paradise? And because of that neither did the thief?

Boy, you sure hate the idea that Jesus Christ is God and that all things are possible for Him, isn't it? And your reasoning because of the "comma" being present in the sentence is seriously lame brain. That's because it doesn't change the context of the verse!

You're simply dying to call Christ a liar aren't you because you don't belief Him.
---christan on 1/12/13


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1stCliff, Luke was a "gentile bible writer"? Thought He was a Jew. Wasn't Luke with Christ when this account told by Him in chapter 16 was written?

And who is this person you are claiming that never met Christ and gave this story? Your back is against the wall all because I asked you to produce the word "parable" in Luke 16 which you claimed it was and failed miserably to show otherwise. And you cook up this story? Wow!

FYI - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" You're an unbeliever pretending to be a believer.
---christan on 1/12/13


FoC, Taken right from the mouth of satan "You will be just like God" Gen.3.4.
How the devil tempts humans by assuring them they will be just like god living in heaven.
The earth doesn't figure into God's plan, just a hunk of dirt!....dream on!
---1st_cliff on 1/12/13


No verse states at death we go to heaven as spirits, the scriptures state we return to dust, however at the return of The Lord to earth he will change all in him and resurrect them to spirit. The Lord has not returned, yet. John 5:28,29

It is important to understand the human body is not composed of spirit, it is composed of flesh and blood as the Lord stated and it is appointed once for all to die.

Converted minds know Gods word is a coded book, here a little, there a little. To understand death look to scriptures on death that the dead know nothing, no memory of God, thoughts perish

When the Lord returns to earth we will be with him on earth resurrected to eternal life as spirit, and be just like the Lord.
---Follower_of_Christ on 1/12/13


Jerry, you say,

"RichardC: "Without a body we do not consciously exist?"

In spirit, after our physical death we are with Christ. Spiritually we have been baptized into One body in Christ. When Jesus returns for the resurrection of the body, the saints will be with Him. Then you give (John 20:17) which has no significance that the subject whatsoever. Jesus Said,
" Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father"

Mary was expressing a desire to hold on to His physical presence for fear that she would once again lose Him. Jesus reference to His ascension signifies that He would only be temporarily with them and though she desperately wanted Him to stay.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/13


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In John 16:7>>>it was necessary for Christ to go so that the Holy Spirit would come. Or are you referring to the resurrection of the believers and the unbelievers?
---pat on 1/12/13


christan: "Didn't Christ say to the thief on the cross, 'Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.'"

See what a difference a little comma can make? There was no punctuation in the original. Jesus Himself denied that He went to heaven (paradise) even two days later:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

So either your interpretation is wrong, or Jesus lied to the thief.


---jerry6593 on 1/12/13


Christian, The Rich man and Lazarus story was written by the only Gentile bible writer, who claims he got it from Christ, who he never met,
and no other writer backs him up!
At the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses a matter will be esablished as truth! (Deut.19.15.)
Draw your own conclusions!
---1st_cliff on 1/12/13


RichardC: "Without a body we do not consciously exist?"

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 104:33 I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

---jerry6593 on 1/12/13


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Trey, there are unbelievers who claim to be believers here, no question about that. And as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, aka Christians, one of our duties is not to reason with these but to reproach with the Word.

Remember the discourse between Christ and the Jews in John 8:37-59? Did Christ reasoned with those who claim to be from the seed of Abraham? NO! He never gave them an inch.

We are having a "conversation" not with unbelievers who do not know the Word but claim to know the Word (similar to Genesis 3 isn't it?). And with these, it's "spiritual warfare" we're in, as Paul admonishes in Ephesians 6:10-20. Harken unto the Word.
---christan on 1/11/13


PHIL - 1/10/13 - Without a body we do not consciously exist ???????????????

2 Corinthians - 5,8 - WE are confident , I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 - TO the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before him before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Philippians 1:23 - For Iam in strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ : Which is far Better:
---RICHARDC on 1/11/13


"The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Parables are meant to conceal, not reveal." Phil

Parable? Where does Jesus say in Luke 16:19-31 that this account He spoke of was a parable? You lie not only to others but to yourself that this account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus that Christ spoke of is a parable when clearly it doesn't say so.

And if it was a parable, Christ will always start off saying it's a parable but not in Luke 16:19-31. What's there to conceal about life after death?

"This parable is part of five. If this one is literal, then the other four are as well."

Seriously, "part of five"? Five what? Five stones?
---christan on 1/11/13


It is not the spirit of the believers that returns to God at death

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils,

It is the spirit of God which god gives to every man believer or none belver that Goes back to God
---francis on 1/11/13


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The thief on the cross was a miscreant Jew. His allotment in the Kingdom was based upon fulfilling the just requirements of the Law, and his crucifixion abrogated that privilege.

Entrance into the Kingdom on earth requires pardon of sins from the King or His apostles.

The thief, recognizing this truth by faith, received pardon by the King.

Paradise, the Land under the King's rule, will be the resurrected thief's portion restored to him, when Christ returns to set up His kingdom.

Paradise is not God's dwelling place. It is man's.
---Phil on 1/11/13


Mt 13:13 Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding.

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Parables are meant to conceal, not reveal.

This parable is part of five. If this one is literal, then the other four are as well.

It is about the Pharisees and those whom they oppressed to their own advantage.
---Phil on 1/11/13


If we go to heaven as spirits when we die, why does Christ say that He will return to take us to where He is?

The apostle Paul addresses that in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinth 15:50-58. When a believer dies his spirit goes to heaven.

His return to take us where he is refers to the resurrection of the dead, that includes having a glorified body as Jesus has.
---jan4378 on 1/11/13


Jerry,

Let us reason together:
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

Christ is speaking to the living. He is speaking of his death and the fulfillment of the covenant made between God the Father and God the Son.
Those who died before the crucifixion of Christ went to heaven based upon the certainty of the fulfillment of the covenant by Christ!
Rev 13:8 refers to Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Christ teaching his disciples speaks of the beggar Lazarus who died and was carried to heaven by the angels. Luke 16

etc.
---trey on 1/11/13


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"No one goes to heaven at death. The Bible is clear about what happens. There is no life after death, until the resurrection of the dead." Phil

Luke 16:22,23 - "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried, And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

You were saying? Jesus said as immediately when the beggar died, the angels came and the rich man was in hell and "lift up his eyes". "no life after death"?

You calling Christ a liar and story-teller? Who's feeding you all these poison you seem to spew?
---christan on 1/11/13


"The implication is clear that the dead are NOT currently with Christ, but he is coming to rectify that in the future." jerry

Didn't Christ say to the thief on the cross, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." According to Scripture, both the thief and Christ died at Calvary.

And to get a better glimpse of what happens when people die, you only have to go read the account of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man as told by Christ in Luke 16. After their death, they each immediately went according to where God had purposed them to go. One went to Paradise and the other to Hades.

They didn't sound "dead" because the rich man was communicating with Abraham!
---christan on 1/11/13


willie: "Well, if we die and become spiritual without bodies, then as spiritual we could return to get our bodies."

Why? Your body would be rotten. If one could exist without a body, why not stay that way? If God wanted to make you a new body, why couldn't He do it in heaven? Too many unanswered questions. Why not go with the clear meaning of the Bible rather than pagan fables?


---jerry6593 on 1/11/13


But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Co_15:14-15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God
---TheSeg on 1/10/13


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At death, the spirit returns to God who gave it, the soul returns to the unseen [hades] and the body returns to dust.

The Lord's spirit returned to God, His soul went to hades for three days, and body was entombed on earth.

He alone suffered no corruption or decay at death.

No one goes to heaven at death. The Bible is clear about what happens.

There is no life after death, until the resurrection of the dead.

We never were, or ever will be, "spirits" without a body. Without a body, we do not consciously exist.
---Phil on 1/10/13


Well, if we die and become spiritual without bodies, then as spiritual we could return to get our bodies.

Also . . . Jesus in us (Galatians 4:9) is not going to die. If we "sleep in Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 4:14), we are wherever Jesus is because we are "in Jesus".

What matters is we have died to sin (Romans 6:1-14), so now we are "alive to God in Christ Jesus" who cannot die. We share this with Him our Groom (c: "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5) We have God's own love, now, "in our hearts" > this is Heaven's very own . . . already in us.
---willie_c: on 1/10/13


Trey: Here's the scripture.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

The implication is clear that the dead are NOT currently with Christ, but he is coming to rectify that in the future. (that where I AM, there ye MAY BE also)



---jerry6593 on 1/10/13


Mary, brother Trey is correct. The spirit of those born of the Spirit goes to be with the Lord. The physical body goes to the ground. When Jesus returns, the saints who went to be with Christ will come together with Him, the physical bodies will rise glorified.
Christ said He would return to receive those bodies which died and bring them to glorification. SDA's belive Jesus went to heaven and left the believers physical body to go to sleep dead, together with his spirit which must be in a coma or asleep also. Separated from Christ again.
"Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" It is an impossibility of Christ deserting believers.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/13


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Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not...
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the dust is a reference to Adam (man) made from dust.

believe or ignore.
---aka on 1/9/13


"If we go to heaven as spirits when we die, why does Christ say that He will return to take us to where He is?" jerry

Seems you have a problem believing in Jesus Christ when He declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

As for Christ returning, He didn't say when He returns that He was going to bring His people with him in their present state of flesh and blood, did He? You simply assume.
---christan on 1/9/13


Hi Trey, I hope you're right 'cause I sure like to think about my brother enjoying Heaven's wonders right now! :)
---Mary on 1/9/13


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