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What Is A Messiah

What constitutes a Messiah? Was He Messiah before His incarnation? After? Can a man bring salvation to the world? And, who is "Christ?" Is He eternal? Cults believe He is not, what do you think and give scripture. We know who Jesus is, but who is the Christ?

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 ---Mark_V. on 1/18/13
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"If I remember...Spanish is Mark's first language" Warwick

Possibly.

It's more an issue of head-scratching, odd logic, or the lack thereof, that undermines what little credibility Mark_V could otherwise have.

For example on 2/6/13 he rants:

"No cult member wants the Truth" [but then] "Not that you do not want to [know the truth]."

So which is it? Do I "want the truth" or not?

If Mark_V (who apparently fancies himself a prophet) were to spend a fraction of the time reading that he spends writing, with little attempt at clarity, (let alone an accurate use of God's word), he might convince someone, other that himself, of his point of view.
---scott on 2/15/13


MarkV- your lies are motivated by your hatred of JW's and not by any factual record. Charles Russell had no association with E G White and had no affiliations with SDA's.

E G White and Seventh Day Adventism has more in common with apostate trinitarianism.

C T Russell may have read publications about death and hell but only to expose your theology as false. Neither you, Ruben or any trinitarian on this thread has given any scripture evidence for your trinitarian mantra: God the Father, Son and holy spirit. You can't because its as false as the rubbish you speak about JW's.

The trinity was not recognised by Jesus because it was devised by a pagan Roman Emperor and a sycophant religionist called Athanasius centuries after.
---David8318 on 2/7/13


'Satan demand of Jesus in Mt 4:9 " All of this I will give you, if you fell down and worship me'- Ruben.

So Ruben believes the Almighty God can be tempted by Satan!

But of course, yet again Ruben has got it all wrong. Satan knows the difference between Jehovah and Jesus. Yes they are different as Ruben agrees. Satan knew Jesus was not Almighty God. Had Jesus been Almighty God, Satan would not have been able to tempt him.

Jesus is the 'last Adam', but unlike the first Adam was successful in remaining faithful to his Father Jehovah God even to the point of death.
---David8318 on 2/7/13


'But yet only the 144,000 in your group get to eat this bread. That leaves you out doesn't?'- Ruben. (Correct grammar: 'does it not', not 'doesn't').

Again Ruben gets it so badly wrong and shows his naivity regarding scripture.

After identifying the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8, Jesus then identifies 'a great crowd (multitude)' at Rev.7:9.

So there are 2 groups in Revelation 7. The 144,000 and the inumerable Great Crowd. The Great Crowd are not spoken of as being 'sealed' like the 144,000 but nevertheless they survive the great tribulation- Rev.7:14. The Great Crowd will receive life on earth under Christ's Millenial reign.
---David8318 on 2/7/13


David, you now say,

"It wasn't until Constantinople in 381AD that the great apostasy finally emerged when the holy spirit was eventually assimilated (in the minds of trinitarian apostates) into the triune God-head."

What you forgot was that a great apostasy of the Jehovah Witnesses begin when in 1869 at the age of 17 Charles Russell began to read the writings of E.G.White on death and hell. From that point, a great apostasy begin. He proclaimed to be the 'faithful and wise servant" and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the channel they say, God was pleased to use for the harvest. The harvest of another apostasy.
---Mark_V. on 2/7/13




'but Rev 5:8 reads " When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb'- Ruben.

And what did they do Ruben? Scripture doesn't say they worshipped the Lamb. Falling down before someone was the common greeting. Rev.5:8 doesn't contain the word 'worship'. The 'elders' sing a new song.

The new song at Rev.5:8 show that God and the Lamb are individuals. The Lamb 'takes the scroll from God'. the Lamb has 'bought persons for God'. God and the Lamb, Jesus are seperate entities.
---David8318 on 2/7/13


As manna sent from Heaven meant life for Israel in the wilderness, so the 'true bread from heaven', Jehovah's son- Jesus, is our 'manna', sent by Jehovah to give eternal life. Appropriate Jesus' birthplace was Beth-lechem: 'house of bread'- John 6:31-34. Hosanna!
---David8318 on 2/6/13

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."(JHN 6:53)

But yet only the 144,000 in your group get to eat this bread. That leaves you out doesn't?
---Ruben on 2/7/13


Scott, when I speak to a cult member, it is as if speaking to the air. As if you are not there at all. I know anything anyone else writes down to show how wrong you are, you will not believe anyway. No Christian can change your heart, make you see, or make you hear, nor give you understanding. That is the work of God. I never expect any cult member to say, "Oh, you are so right, how wrong I have been" If God takes you out, by drawing you to Himself, your eyes will be open, you will understand the real Truth, you will know you were wrong and ask God to forgive you for working against the Truth. You will repent with a contrite heart.
---Mark_V. on 2/7/13


==And yet you and all other trinitarians have been led to believe the 'trinity' has always been there and believed. You've been duped and you're kidding yourself.==

The Trinity always has been there and believed.

You are the one who is duped and is kidding, David.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/7/13


'We believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of all things...And in the Holy Spirit." Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325)'- Ruben.

Yes Ruben, the council of Nicea in 325AD did not deify the holy spirit. The Bible doesn't call the holy spirit 'God'. As you conveniently show us all, the council of Nicea simply concluded 'belief in' the holy spirit.

It wasn't until Constantinople in 381AD that the great apostasy finally emerged when the holy spirit was eventually assimilated (in the minds of trinitarian apostates) into the triune God-head.

And yet you and all other trinitarians have been led to believe the 'trinity' has always been there and believed. You've been duped and you're kidding yourself.
---David8318 on 2/7/13




David, recently you claimed you answered all questions. How about an answer to mine?

To the point, non-evasive answers please.
---Warwick on 2/6/13


'this prayer is to Jehova thus why the priests... were indignant'.

Yes agreed, praise given because they recognised Jesus was 'sent in the name of Jehovah'. The priests and scribes had already rejected Jesus, which is why they were indignant that others were praising Jesus in such a way.

Psalm 118:25,26 reads, 'O Jehovah, we beseech thee, send now prosperity, Blessed be he that cometh in the name of Jehovah: We have blessed you out of the house of Jehovah' (ASV)

As manna sent from Heaven meant life for Israel in the wilderness, so the 'true bread from heaven', Jehovah's son- Jesus, is our 'manna', sent by Jehovah to give eternal life. Appropriate Jesus' birthplace was Beth-lechem: 'house of bread'- John 6:31-34. Hosanna!
---David8318 on 2/6/13


Scott, if I remember rightly Spanish is Mark's first language therefore he is corresponding with us in a second language. Are you so fluent in a second language?
---Warwick on 2/6/13


'scripture is saying Jesus is Jehova!'- Ruben.

A belief which leads you into polytheism.

Lets be reminded of your pagan polytheist philosophy: 'Jesus and God the Father are different persons but they are equal in nature as Almighty God.'

'Different persons... THEY are equal in nature as Almighty God'.

"THEY" are different Almighty God's!? Let's call your belief what it really is- trinitarian Polytheism!

You refuse to acknowledge that Jesus was 'sent'. In applying Isaiah 6:10, Jesus said, 'He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me' Jo.12:44(ASV). Refusal to accept this truth results in the condition described at Is.6:10.
---David8318 on 2/6/13


David8318 * You forgot the last bit of verse 21, '...Blessed is he that comes in Jehovahs name!'

Which is from Psalm 118:26 it reads:

Lord, grant salvation. Lord, grant good fortune! Blessed is he who comes "

this prayer is to Jehova thus why the priests and the scribes " they were indignant" And what was Jesus reply:

Yes, and have you not read the text, out of the mouth of infants :

"O Lord, Our Lord! how awesome is your name through all the earth" Psalm 8:1-3


David8318 * You simply cannot comprehend Jesus was 'sent' by Jehovah can you- John 14:8-11.

And you simply cannot comprehend that scripture is saying Jesus is Jehova!
---Ruben on 2/6/13


David8318 * No it doesn't. The 'Elders' worshipped the the one seated on the throne- Jehovah God. The Lamb takes the scroll from the one seated on the throne (Rev.5:7), who is '.

Agree, but Rev 5:8 reads " When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb." And you recall Satan demand of Jesus in Mt 4:9 " All of this I will give you, if you fell down and worship me "
---Ruben on 2/6/13


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Athanasius wrote to Serapion in 360AD. But in 325AD, in the council with pagan Emperor Constantine at Nicea, the holy spirit was not 'deified'. Athanasius made the HS 'God' much later- as you demonstrate.
---David8318 on 2/5/13


We believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of all things, visible and invisible, And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,begotten from the Father,only-begotten,that is,from the substance of the Father,God from God,light from light,true God from true God,begotten,not made,of one substance with the Father...And in the Holy Spirit." Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

"
---Ruben on 2/6/13


MarkV's 'Jabberwocky' approach to apologetics

Though, in context, Paul's words apply to the gift of tongues, in principle they describe the difficulty Mark_V has with his frequent inability to form a coherent sentence or thought while pontificating.

"If the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air." 1 Cor 14:8, 9
---scott on 2/6/13


Scott, of course you do not care to hear the truth, you are a cult member. No cult member wants the Truth. What else is new? Nothing. The problem you have is that you are not able to hear the Truth. Not that you do not want to. The Truth is in Scripture, not in the bible you present, the NWT of the scriptures. Jehovah Witnesses changed the Truth to a lie. And unless God opens your eyes, you will remain blind to the Truth. Your religion is base on the foundation of Charles Russell, not Jesus Christ, the Creator of all things.
---Mark_V. on 2/6/13


'Save, we pray, the Son of David! (MT 21:9)=NWT'- Ruben.

You forgot the last bit of verse 21, '...Blessed is he that comes in Jehovahs name!' You simply cannot comprehend Jesus was 'sent' by Jehovah can you- John 14:8-11. I praise Jehovah for 'sending' Jesus & so did those boys. It's sad you 'disagree' Jehovah's Messiah rode into Jerusalem.

'Scripture itself shows worship both Jehova and Jesus (Rev.5:14)'- Ruben.

No it doesn't. The 'Elders' worshipped the the one seated on the throne- Jehovah God. The Lamb takes the scroll from the one seated on the throne (Rev.5:7), who is '...Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming' (Rev.4:8).

'Jehovah God you must worship'- Jesus at Matt.4:10.
---David8318 on 2/5/13


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'The misunderstanding of the Trinity'- Ruben.

I agree the trinity is a complete scriptural misunderstanding. And I agree with you that Jehovah and Jesus are 'different persons'. But you enter the realm of polytheism when you say 'they are
equal in nature as Almighty God'.

"THEY"... not He?? Do you get the drift you're talking about two Almighty God's? You're into polythesim Ruben. Only Jehovah is Almighty God as Rev.4:8 and 5:14 testify.

Athanasius wrote to Serapion in 360AD. But in 325AD, in the council with pagan Emperor Constantine at Nicea, the holy spirit was not 'deified'. Athanasius made the HS 'God' much later- as you demonstrate.
---David8318 on 2/5/13


David8318 * I'm sure the people were praying to and praising Jehovah when they saw His Messiah ridng into Jerusalem.

Scripture disagree with you:

"Save, we pray, the Son of David! (MT 21:9)=NWT

David8318 * This is polytheism. You have 2 Almighty God's here. 2 different persons, both of whom you give equal worship to.

The misunderstanding of the Trinity by David!

Scripture itself shows worship both Jehova and Jesus:

To him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb , be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever. And the four living creatures kept saying, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshiped . Rev (5 11:14)
---Ruben on 2/5/13


David, Isaiah 9:6 speaking of the coming Saviour says:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

This means that Jesus our Saviour is all these things, has all these titles and names. He is the Mighty God. But you would say He is the Mighty God but not the Almighty God therefore it is you who is the polytheist having at least two God's, isn't it?

Was Adam or any angel written about in equal terms with this honour, and majesty?
---Warwick on 2/5/13


You never include the holyspirit as Almighty God? Constantine & Athanasius didn't either when devising Christendoms trinity. HS is never called 'God'.
---David8318 on 2/4/13

David,

"But if there is such co-ordination and unity within the holy Triad, who can separate either the Son from the Father, or the Spirit from the Son or from the Father himself? Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:20-21 (A.D. 360).

JOHN 4:24 God {is} a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship {him} in spirit and in truth.


---Ruben on 2/5/13


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David8318 * Yes, I pray to Jehovah- through Jesus Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

Jesus said " I am the way truth and the life" JHN 14:6

How can you listen to Jesus voice if you dont speak with Him in prayer?

JHN 6:45 reads Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me .

If you learned have from Jehova you are told to "come to Jesus", have you?

Jesus said " My sheep listen to my voive , and I know them, and they follow me . And I give them everlasting life"(JHN 10:27-30)

Again how can you unless you go directly to him in prayer?
---Ruben on 2/5/13


matthew 28:19 speaks of the Father,Son and Holy Ghost. Luke 11:13 galatians 1:3, galatians4:6, Luke 3:16, John 10:30 I and my Father are One. 2 Corinthians 3:17 (Now the Lord is that Spirit) I have too many words to type it all here. galatians 4:6,galatians 5:18-But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.colossians 2:5...For tho I be absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
---shira4368 on 2/5/13


'Save we pray(Hosanna), aren't you taught that Jehova only is to pray to?'- Ruben.

Yes, I pray to Jehovah- through Jesus Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. I'm sure the people were praying to and praising Jehovah when they saw His Messiah ridng into Jerusalem.

'Jesus and God the Father are different persons but they are equal in nature as Almighty God... And worship Jesus, you worship Jehova'- Ruben 2/4/13.

This is polytheism. You have 2 Almighty God's here. 2 different persons, both of whom you give equal worship to.

You never include the holyspirit as Almighty God? Constantine & Athanasius didn't either when devising Christendoms trinity. HS is never called 'God'.
---David8318 on 2/4/13


David8318 * Disown Jesus you disown Jehovah. Praise Jesus, you praise Jehovah.

And worship Jesus, you worship Jehova:
(Rev 5:14)

David8318 *Doesn't mean Jesus is Jehovah.

True, Jesus Christ is not His own Father, but as we seen from Scripture, he is Lord/Jehovah/Yahweh. Dont let calling Jesus Christ Yahweh be a stone of stumbling to you (1 Peter 2:8/Isaiah 8:14). Instead, sanctify Christ who is the Lord Jehovah in your hearts! (1 Peter 3:15/Isaiah 8:13).

David8318 * Had I been there I too would have said 'hosanna' (and I do now) because I recognise Jesus was 'sent' by Jehovah as my Messiah and saviour- John 14:8-11.

Save we pray(Hosanna), aren't you taught that Jehova only is to pray to?
---Ruben on 2/4/13


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"Scott, you never understood (John 10:34) when Jesus quoted from (Ps. 82:6)..." Mark_V

Can I recommend a good grammar checker?

I can butcher the English language like the best of them, but your apparent lack of effort to construct a sentence that is even in the ballpark of coherence makes my head hurt.

I have no idea what your point or argument is...nor do I really care about your self-absorbed pontification.

Carry on.
---scott on 2/4/13


'"the Son" is to be called "Everlasting Father'- adetunji.

'A son is given... And he will be called... Everlasting Father'- Is.9:6(NIV)

The 'son' has not always been 'everlasting Father'- note: 'he will be called'. Adam was to have been our everlasting Father, but was disobedient. Jesus Christ is the 'last Adam' and has redeemed mankind from Adam's sin- 1 Cor.15:45, Ro.5:18,19. As the 'last Adam', Jesus is our 'everlasting Father'.

Faithful mankind will be granted 'everlasting life' (John 17:3). This doesn't mean they have always lived anymore than Jesus being called 'everlasting Father' mean he has always been 'Father'.

Dodged good questions? Please show me a 'good question' from a trinitarian?
---David8318 on 2/4/13


//The chief priests and scribes were saying "Do You hear what these are saying?

One group to praying to Jehova and the other group is telling Jesus that prayer belong only to Jehova!

What was Jesus response, It was not to silent the crowd but to apply himself a scripture that applied to Yahweh (Jehovah)!//- Ruben. (This isn't the only scripture Jesus applied to himself).

I agree. Jesus was representing Jehovah. Disown Jesus you disown Jehovah. Praise Jesus, you praise Jehovah. Doesn't mean Jesus is Jehovah.

Had I been there I too would have said 'hosanna' (and I do now) because I recognise Jesus was 'sent' by Jehovah as my Messiah and saviour- John 14:8-11.
---David8318 on 2/4/13


David8318 * But the boys crying out was not the only issue making the chief priests 'indignant'.

It was the main point :

Hosanna to the Son of David! they were indignant and said to Him, < b> Do you hear what these are saying ?

And Jesus reply with Psalm 8:2-

David8318 * Jesus represented his Father- Heb.1:3. What do you mean 'he had the same stuff'!?

"He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being," Heb 1:3- NWT

Which means :

" In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Gen 1:1

" IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God-Jhn 1:1
---Ruben on 2/4/13


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David8318 * But even if 'hosanna' is applicable to Jehovah, faithful ones knew then that Jesus was not Jehovah but was 'sent' by Jehovah as the Messiah & saviour- John 14:8-11.

The faithful were saying "Save we pray" which is a prayer to Jehova.

The chief priests and scribes were saying "Do You hear what these are saying?

One group to praying to Jehova and the other group is telling Jesus that prayer belong only to Jehova!

What was Jesus response, It was not to silent the crowd but to apply himself a scripture that applied to Yahweh (Jehovah)!

FYI- Jesus and God the Father are different persons but they are
equal in nature as Almighty God.

"exact representation"
---Ruben on 2/4/13


Scott, you never understood (John 10:34) when Jesus quoted from (Ps. 82:6) He said "I said" meaning He was speaking in (Ps. 82:6) This same Jesus was telling those who wanted to stone Him, He had spoken in the law:
"Jesus answered, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, You are gods"? the difference between those who were gods and Himself is that those called gods were unjust judges and God pronounced calamity against them. The word "god" can be legitimately used to refer to others, then God Himself, and for that reason why would the Jews object to Jesus statement that He is the Son of God? (v.36).
---Mark_V. on 2/4/13


'The scripture verse itself tell us'- Ruben.

But the boys crying out was not the only issue making the chief priests 'indignant'. Matt.21:15 says it was 'the marvelous things he (Jesus) did AND the boys that were crying out'. So the use of hosanna at Matt.21:15 is not the singular event at this point making the chief priests 'indignant'. Other matters also contributed to their indignation.

But even if 'hosanna' is applicable to Jehovah, faithful ones knew then that Jesus was not Jehovah but was 'sent' by Jehovah as the Messiah & saviour- John 14:8-11.

Jesus represented his Father- Heb.1:3. What do you mean 'he had the same stuff'!? If Jesus was 'Jehova the Son', you believe he represented himself not his Father.
---David8318 on 2/2/13


The Bible in Basic English-

John 10:34-36: "In answer, Jesus said, [citing Ps 82:6] Is there not a saying in your law, I said, You are gods? If he said they were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Writings may not be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father made holy and sent into the world, Your words are evil, because I said, I am God's Son?"
---scott on 2/1/13


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David8318 * Ruben- which reference work do you cite where 'hosanna' you claim: "the jews only use when addressing Yahweh (Jehovah)"?

The scripture verse itself tell us:

"When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did ...were crying out in the temple and saying: Save, we pray, the Son of David! they became indignant" - Why were they indignant?

David8318 * Isaiah 6:1-10 is 'a vision'. No one actually 'saw' Jehovah.

St John had no problem saying that Isaiahs vision of Jehovah in His temple was a vision of Christs glory!

Jesus is the 'exact representation' of his Father (Heb.1:3).

If Jesus is 'exact representation' then he had the same 'stuff' as his Father.
---Ruben on 2/1/13


Ruben- which reference work do you cite where 'hosanna' you claim: "the jews only use when addressing Yahweh (Jehovah)"?

Isaiah 6:1-10 is 'a vision'. No one actually 'saw' Jehovah. In applying Isaiah 6, Jesus said 'He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me.' (ASV)

Jesus did not direct attention to himself- 'but on him that SENT me'. Jesus is not the Father, but the one SENT who showed the way to the Father- Jo.14:8-11.

Jesus is the 'exact representation' of his Father (Heb.1:3). Jesus represented Jehovah. Disown Jesus, you disown Jehovah (Matt.10:32,33). Praise Jesus, you praise Jehovah (Ps.118:26, Matt.21:9).
---David8318 on 1/31/13


The Bible in Basic English-

Cambridge University Press with Evans Brothers, Ltd, 1965 (first printing 1949). Working with the Orthological [science of correct spelling] Institute, a committee under Professor S. H. Hooke, Professor Emeritus of OT Studies in the University of London, has been responsible for a new English form of the Bible made from the Hebrew and Greek.. Introductory Note

Col 1:15. "Who is the image of the unseen God, coming into existence before all living things."
---scott on 1/30/13


The Bible in Basic English-

"From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God." (JHn 1:1)
---Ruben on 1/31/13


scott, have you ever read how the king james bible came to be? go online and read about how it came to be. even king james had to work so no one would know what he was doing.
---shira4368 on 1/30/13


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Col 1:15- Ruben


The Bible in Basic English-

Cambridge University Press with Evans Brothers, Ltd, 1965 (first printing 1949). Working with the Orthological [science of correct spelling] Institute, a committee under Professor S. H. Hooke, Professor Emeritus of OT Studies in the University of London, has been responsible for a new English form of the Bible made from the Hebrew and Greek...gone over in detail by a committee from by the Syndics [association] of the Cambridge University Press...in this way it was watched over by two separate groups of experts..." Introductory Note

Col 1:15. "Who is the image of the unseen God, coming into existence before all living things."
---scott on 1/30/13


David8318: You are an avid dodger of good questions that you are unable to answer. You say, "When you or Ruben have answered my question, I'll then answer yours." Check Isaiah 9:6 in your Bible, why did Jehovah say to Isaiah that "the Son" is to be called "Everlasting Father (AKJV)"?
---Adetunji on 1/30/13


'first born of all creation'- Col.1:15, (NAS, ASV) 'firstborn of every creature' (KJV).

---David8318 on 1/27/13

Ok:
About 'first-born:

Psalm 89:27 refers to King David of Israel: And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth. And we know King David was not the first-born!

Speaking of first-born ,notice in Col 1:18 it reads "the firstborn from the dead" of course Christ was not the first to die.BTW how is he the'firstborn of the dead', he tells us in Rev 1:17-18 "I am the first and the last, and the living one, I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
---Ruben on 1/29/13


David8318 * Zechariah 12:10 can be understood in the same way Psalm 8:2 as previously explained to Ruben.

Which was poorly explained,

Lets try again,

The chief priests and the scribes were upset because the people were saying "Save, we pray, the Son of David! Do you hear what these are saying?

The words "Save we pray" is also translated as Hosanna which the jews only use when addressing Yahweh (Jehovah) in prayer thus why "they became became indignant"
---Ruben on 1/29/13


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David, you twisted the passages in (Zek. 12:10). Who was speaking? The Lord Jehovah.
"And and I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then "they will look at Me whom they pierced"
Jehovah is speaking of Himself. Jesus was not even born yet. What your cult religion did with the NWT, was to remove "look on Me whom they pierced" to remove Jehovah speaking of Himself to "look to the one whom they pierced" No matter how much twisting your cult does, it cannot change the Truth.
If we checked one passage at a time we can see how the cults twist the word of God. That is why they had to create their own Bible.
---Mark_V. on 1/29/13


David8318 *

Isaiah 6:1-10 describes a vision of Yahweh in his temple: In the year that King Uzziah died I, however, got to see Jehovah,..

"The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said:" (Jhn 12:39)

Either Jehova and Jesus is the same, which I beleive you are taught or thier is such a thing call Jehova the Son!

Philippians 2:9-11/Isaiah 45:23:

BTW the NWT had a cross-reference at Philippians 2:10 pointing to Isaiah 45:23. Their 1984 Reference Bible edition has removed that cross-reference.

I wonder why????

Hebrews 1:10-12 which quotes the Psalm 102:25-27

Notice this comparison between 1 Peter 3:14,15 and Isaiah 8:12,13:
---Ruben on 1/28/13


'Jehova the Son... Those words do not appear as you ask'- MarkV.

Finally, an admittance that the trinitarian rhetoric 'Jehova the Son' and 'God the Son' are not Biblical expressions- and that from a trinitarian!

Zechariah 12:10 can be understood in the same way Psalm 8:2 as previously explained to Ruben. Just as showing hostility to Jesus meant showing hostility to Jehovah (Ps.8:2), likewise, piercing Jesus at his death on the torture stake was tantamount to piercing Jehovah God- Zech.12:10. But the clincher really is Zech.12:10 speaks of those piercing 'the firstborn son'- in fact "son" is mentioned twice in Zech.12:10.

So its not God being literally pierced, but his son.
---David8318 on 1/28/13


David, I keep answering you and you avoid answering me and go to others. You now say to show where,
"'Jehova the Son' appears."

Those words do not appear as you ask but they appear this way to descirbe Jehovah speaking which is applied to Christ,
"They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced" (Zek. 12:10). Christ is also declared to be ""Jehovah our righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30). In Isaiah 40:3) Christ is spoken of as both Jehovah and Elohim (Luke 3:4). In Isaiah 9:6,7) Christ is called "the mighty God "Elohim" And all passages in the New Testament referring to Christ by this title link Him with the Elohim of the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 1/28/13


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It appears to be a regular diversionary trinitarian tactic, when they're forced into a corner- avoid answering direct questions and shift the emphasis of the argument.

In Rubens case, he stated 'Jehova the Son' and 'God the Son'.

I've asked for scripture as to where these expressions appear.

Rather than provide evidence for their appearance in the Bible, #because they're not in the Bible- and Ruben and aka know they're not# they shift the argument onto interpretation.

I can talk all day long about interpretation. But all I want is for Ruben to show us at least where 'Jehova the Son' appears. Otherwise he is promoting scriptural lies.
---David8318 on 1/28/13


i am learning ... from God ... and not any organization. and i know how you link those phrases. i can read jw websites. and without considering the rest of scripture, your organization's links are valid.

i am not here to defend the trinity. as i told you...i am not a trinitarian... 3 person in one God. i believe three spirits in one Godliness.

and, don't waste your time accusing me of polytheism. you believe that there is one god and lots of little gods.
---aka on 1/28/13


now, you challenge trinitarians to give you one verse. i am challenging you the same. one verse.

trinitarians can piece together scripture to support their views like you do using similar material...just like the sdas and so on.
---aka4889 on 1/28/13


Aka- well at least you recognise those expressions 'Michael the Archangel' and 'first born of all creation' are in the Bible... you are learning thats good.

I will show you scriptural evidence how they are linked when either you or Ruben can answer my original question which was where in scripture are the trinitarian expressions 'Jehova the Son' or 'God the Son'. When you or Ruben have answered my question, I'll then answer yours.
---David8318 on 1/28/13


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//'Michael the archangel'- Jude 9.

'first born of all creation'- Col.1:15, (NAS, ASV) 'firstborn of every creature' (KJV).//

now, present one verse that puts them together.
---aka on 1/27/13


'JW's call the Holy Spirit the active force of God'- dovidacher.

Yes JW's translate Genesis 1:2 as 'God's active force...'

At Ge.1:2 the Hebrew word ru'ach is used. Besides being translated 'spirit', ru'ach is also translated 'wind' and by other words that denote an invisible active force.

For example, Gen.3:8 (ru'ach), 'breeze' (CJB, Holman, Wycliffe).

Also, Gen.8:1 ' God made a wind (ru'ach) to pass over the earth' (KJV).

Thus it is not inappropriate for JW's to translate ru'ach as 'God's active force' at Gen.1:2.

My question however is where in the Bible is 'Jehova the Son' and 'God the Son' which trinitarians use on this thread?
---David8318 on 1/27/13


The Bible does not call Jesus, Michael. Re. firstborn of every creature, it does not equal first created-the Talmud calls God by the same title. The title conveys supremecy-and Christ is called the Alpha and Omega-this is equivalent to the Rabbinical designation for God, the Aleph and Tav. Paul and the writer of Rev., were Jews, using Jewish titles for God, and applying them to Christ.
---dovidacher on 1/27/13


David said "what unscriptural expressions do JW's use to describe Jehovah, Jesus or the holy spirit?"-for one, JW's call the Holy Spirit the active force of God. That is not Biblical. And verses which speak of the Spirit having personality, are explained away by them. I would mention here, the Holy Spirit, is at times called the Spirit of Jesus.
---dovidacher on 1/27/13


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David, you twist the word of God to argue your cultic belief.
(2 Cor. 5:19) clearly states
"To wit, that "God was in Christ," reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing thier trespasses unto them, and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" That is pretty clear.
Then you argue with (Col. 1:15), implying He was created, but that is not what the passage is saying. If he was created, how can the next verse say,
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible...All things were created through Him and for Him, and He is before all things and in Him all things consist"
Firstborn refers to preeminence in position.
---Mark_V. on 1/27/13


'you prefer the not intelligent version?'- aka.

You think I'm sarcastic!? That makes both of us. So you prefer the kill joy version? Even the context of the KJV at 2 Cor.5:19 doesn't teach what you twist it to suggest- that God was in Christ. Common English Bible says 'God... through Christ'. Context destroys your trinitarian assault. You can't see verses in any other way other than the brainwashed trinitarian view you've been indoctrinated into.

You also strangely ask 'present one verse'?

'Michael the archangel'- Jude 9.

'first born of all creation'- Col.1:15, (NAS, ASV) 'firstborn of every creature' (KJV).

Lets see you destroy these verses the way you did 2 Cor.5:19.
---David8318 on 1/27/13


Jesus did not meet the criteria of the long awaited Messiah.
1.Jesus lived on earth in the age of Moses monoethism.
Moses stated no one is beside God.
Jesus said My Father and I are one.
These conflicting statements was the primary reason for Jesus's death.
2.Jesus refused to be made king after feeding 5000. 3.Messiah was become Jewish authority and break the Roman yoke.Did'nt happen.
It is however true the apostles believed Jesus was the deliverer regardless of their and others confusion.
---earl on 1/26/13


'Michael the Archangel', 'first born of creation' ARE scriptural expressions. // david

present one verse.
---aka on 1/26/13


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'Jesus as Michael the Archangel or first created being 'both expressions are unscriptural'- Ruben.

Your statement is incorrect and your argument a fallacy. 'Michael the Archangel', 'first born of creation' ARE scriptural expressions. How these are interpreted is not the issue. I disagree with your interpretation of them just as you do mine- but again that's not the issue.

My argument is on the basis that 'Jehova the Son' and 'God the Son' are unlike your examples unscriptural expressions.

However much I would enjoy discussing with you whether Jesus is 'Michael' or 'first born of all creation' (which are scriptural expressions), what unscriptural expressions do JW's use to describe Jehovah, Jesus or the holy spirit?
---David8318 on 1/26/13


Bro. Trey, you are correct concerning what I wanted to talk about. Messiah, is a word used for Christ. The Hebrew word Masiah or (Khristos) in the Greek Septuagint became an accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth. He is also called the Word of God and the Word who became flesh and dwelled among us. And also called the Christ, Savior in the New Testament, while the Father was called the Savior in the Old Test. After the ascension of Christ, the Holy Spirit is mention not only as the Savior but as the One who gives life and was involved in the creation. Father, Son and Holy Spirit having the same attributes.
---Mark_V. on 1/26/13


David8318* "Jehova the Son" is just as bad as saying "God the Son". Both expressions are unscriptural and thus do not describe the God of the Bible, but are examples of Ruben experimenting with words based on his indoctrination into the pagan trinity dogma.

Let me play the game:

Jesus as Michael the Archangel or first created being 'both expressions are unscriptural and thus do not describe the Jesus of the Bible' but are teaching of the WTS on which he has to believe or be disfellowship!
---Ruben on 1/25/13


David...you prefer the not intelligent version? The niv parallelsthe nwt in many ways.

Btw...i love your saracastic commentaries of others. they tickle me and they reveal your true spirit.
---aka on 1/25/13


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David, you know little about Christ. It's ok, it's not your fault. God has not revealed it to you. Christ is eternal, since we know that "As the Creator of all things, He Himself must be uncreated" (John 1:1-3: Col. 1:16,17). He is Omniscience, because we are told "Now we know that you know all things" Peter declared "Lord you know everything"
He is Omnipotent, in that He has power over nature (Luke 8:25) in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18). All the fullness of deity dwells in Him. "For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9) He is Sovereign for He declares,
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me"
---Mark_V. on 1/25/13


'2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ... God was in Christ?- aka.

I prefer the rendering as found in NIV-

'God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ' 2 Cor.5:19.

Christ's death reconciles sinners to God- that's the import of the previous verse I posted, ie. 5:14. Not that God is in Christ. But that God, in Christ reconciled a world.

Confusion thus reigns in aka & James_L world- "I thought Michael was in Christ. by extension then, God was in Michael." Predictably, aka completely misunderstands 2 Cor.5:19.

Plus, aka & James will have you believe Jesus is the eternal God, of the same divine substance as Almighty God and thus never died- an antichrist philosophy (1 Jo.4:3,10).
---David8318 on 1/24/13


Her. David, before you pound Ruben to the ground, you forgot to read the real Bible. You say:

""Jehovah the Son" is just as bad as saying "God the Son". Both expressions are unscriptural and thus do not describe the God of the Bible, "
Many passages link Christ with the name Jehovah. In Zechariah 12:10) where Jehovah is speaking, the description is to be applied clearly to Christ: "They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced" in (Rev. 1:7) describes Christ in the same language. Again(Jeremiah 23:5,6) Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" And many more passages are similar (Psa. 68:18: Eph. 4:8-10: Ps. 102:12, 25-27: Heb. 1:10-12: Isa. 6:5: etc.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/13


MarkV,
First of all, Daniel fortells of the messiah's birth and death - Dan 9:25 & 26.
Micah 5:2 establishes where the Messiah will be born and that his existance is from everlasting.
John 4:25 tells us that the Messiah is the Christ.
John 4:26 Jesus declares that he is the Christ, the everlasting Son of God!

Mark, you mentioned our Advocate. 1st John 2:1 declares Christ to be our Advocate. Job 9:33 speaks of a daysman, which I belive means an advocate.

Is this more the direction you were looking for this blog to go?
---trey on 1/23/13


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A good example of this is in Abraham dream (Gen. 15:17) in which a coventant symbolicly show by a split goat, ram, and pigeons and the two parties would then pass between the split animals. A contract between business partners was made in this way. However, God the Father (a fire pot) and God the Son (torch) went between the pieces. The fire pot is represents manna from God the Father. The torch represents God the Son the light of the world.
---Scott1 on 1/23/13


'he is not Jehova the Father but Jehova the Son'- Ruben.

"Jehova the Son" is just as bad as saying "God the Son". Both expressions are unscriptural and thus do not describe the God of the Bible, but are examples of Ruben experimenting with words based on his indoctrination into the pagan trinity dogma.

Given that it was Ruben who enlightened us as to where the famous trinitarian mantra 'God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost' comes from- ie. the RCC Catechism, writings of uninspired trinitarians- of which he dearly subscribes to, it is hardly surprising Ruben would look at any scripture through the lens of the RCC Catechism and come up with anything but 'Jesus and God are... Almighty God'.
---David8318 on 1/23/13


I would like to apologize for making my question many questions, and a short blog cannot cover all the answers. I will write more blogs to cover the other questions and here just concentrate on what is the definition of a messiah. And if He ( Jesus ) was the Messiah before He was born.
Lets begin with what is the definition or duty of a mediator. A Mediator is one who intervenes between two parties, when one has offended the other, and the offended party does not forgive the other, or when two parties disagree with one another, and mediator comes to brings peace between the two parties. When someone offends a person, the party offended may forgive the offender, so in such cases there is no need for a mediator.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/13


Bro. Trey, I asked the question believing that together, with what everyone knows already we could piece together who is 'the Christ' so to be able to demonstrate He is the Immanuel of prophecy. And also how the child was born was given the name Jesus.
In (Isa. 7:14)
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive a bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel" (God with us). And maybe we can piece together from (Isa. 9:6) what everlasting Father means. Since He is not God the Father, He is the Messiah, the Christ from all eternity yet, Father to His people eternally. And also show how a body was prepared for Him. Hope that with everyone answering and giving their part, we can explain the humanity and divine nature of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/13


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Messiah means the "Anointed", I understand. This would mean Jesus is the One whom our Father has chosen to deliver Israel from Israel's enemies, so then He would rule Israel. This, though, especially means how we need Jesus to save us from our sins! (Matthew 1:21)

The angel told Mary about Jesus > Luke 1:30-33, and Zacharias said Luke 1:79. Also, see Luke 2:10-12, what the angel said to the shepherds. And Simeon says > Luke 2:29-32, including "my eyes have seen Your salvation".

So, Jesus our Messiah is our salvation and our Groom. Our Groom is not just a theoretical subject but intimately personal in love with each of us who is "one spirit with Him." (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) (c:
---willie_c: on 1/19/13


\\The big God and a bunch of little gods...isn't that polytheism? \\
---aka on 1/18/13

excellent point.

JW's worship the god of Canaan.

El - Supreme "god" who has the master plan

Dagon, Baal, Molech, etc - minion gods doing all the work.


JWs simply replace the names with Jehovah, Michael, Lucifer

But it's polytheism still the same
---James_L on 1/19/13


Hi Brother Mark, I believe you and I agree!
The scriptures teach:
Isa9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

For God to give us his Son, he had to have a Son.

Christ said:
Joh8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Christ declaring himself to be eternal and God!

The trinity doctrine is founded upon 1John 5:7 and Matt 3:16 and 17. We really only need two witnesses.

Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God, our messiah, redeemer, and much more really did die upon the cross!John 19:30
---trey on 1/19/13


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