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Original Sin Teachings

Why are there numerous ways in which original sin is taught? Is it possible that the teaching is false?

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 ---James_L on 2/6/13
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But Jesus did not inherit the curse.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/13

What do you mean by "inherit" ??

In other places, you have argued that "inherit" means to enter - i.e. "inherit" the Kingdom supposedly means "enter the Kingdom"

So when you use the word "inherit" here, do you use it in the same way, as in Jesus did not "enter" the curse ?

Could you be more clear what this word "inherit" is supposed to mean to you?


Clarity is all I'm asking for
---James_L on 3/30/13


Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Do not confuse HUMAN NATURE with SINFUL NATURE

Christ had Human Hature: Image of God obedient and subject to God

Not sin nature: Disobedient to God
---francis on 3/30/13


Katr: "you really don't believe God was made Flesh through being born of a virgin."

Not so! You've got it backwards. I'm arguing for the same thing as you are. I do indeed believe that Jesus was made flesh and thus was tempted in all points as we are, but without sin.


---jerry6593 on 3/30/13


Jerry, you try to connect Jesus Christ to Adam to suggest He had a sin nature, only heretics do that. He had a human body as Mary and Mary was a descendant of Adam. But Jesus did not inherit the curse. Jesus is God, He is not under condemnaton, and it is He who put the curse on mankind. He did not put the curse on Himself. Only heretics try to connect Him with sin. Jesus in His humanity was born Holy, that means without sin.
"The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: Wherefore also the Holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God"
Are you a heretic? why don't you laugh now? You cannot hide from God, neither can you Kathr. The blind leading the blind.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/13


Well MarkV, we see Jesus was made FLESH, and that FLESH came from his Mother who scripture tells us her flesh can be traced back to Adam.

Your understanding is getting more and more obvious you really don't believe God was made Flesh through being born of a virgin.

Interesting indeed.

Jerry, it may not be stupidity, but HERESY!
---kathr4453 on 3/29/13




Mark V,

you said
\\First of all Jesus had a human body just like any human body.\\

just like Paul's flesh? which he declared

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing - Romans 7:18

Remember, YOU are the one who said "JUST LIKE ANY HUMAN BODY"

Now you're trying to mysticize Jesus' physical body because you have agreed with the ignorant presumption that being in Adam's flesh makes one a sinner.

And it scares you to think that Jesus could have been made a sinner by being a descendant of Adam

Jesus said

That which is born of the flesh is flesh - John 3:6

There is no "spiritual death" connection to the flesh of Adam
---James_L on 3/29/13


MarkV: I always appreciate a good laugh. Like when someone as ignorant as yourself calls me stupid. You seem to have forgotten that Jesus was also the son of Mary. What do you think she was? A space alien? ROFL!



---jerry6593 on 3/29/13


James L, they might be contrary to those who want to make a case against a Holy God, but not to those who believe that Jesus was a human being in His physical body, yet not a descendant of Adam in that He was not born in sin as all descendants of Adam. For He was born of God the Spirit and we are told He was Holy, and only God is Holy. That's why He was 100% human flesh, and 100% God. He had two natures. And only heretics would argue those points by attacking His humanity.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/13


\\First of all Jesus had a human body just like any human body.\\
---Mark_V.

\\He was not a descendant of Adam...\\
---Mark_V.

Those two statements are in conflict with one another
---James_L on 3/28/13

Yep, and totally contrary to the Genealogy in the Gospels going all the way back to Adam. The last Adam or 2nd Adam does not imply MarkV God CREATED a second or Last Adam to you does it?
---kathr4453 on 3/28/13


It does not mean He had a sin nature. That is pretty stupid to say.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/13
What is stupid is to confuse human nature with sin nature

Adam and Eve were both created with human nature, and yet was not created with sin nature

Jesus was born with human nature and not sin nature
---francis on 3/28/13




\\First of all Jesus had a human body just like any human body.\\
---Mark_V.

\\He was not a descendant of Adam...\\
---Mark_V.

Those two statements are in conflict with one another
---James_L on 3/28/13


Jerry, you expostion of the nature of Jesus Christ probably comes from E.G.White. Because none of it is true. First of all Jesus had a human body just like any human body. He was born, got older, had colds and was weak many times but He had no sin. That includes a sin nature. He was not a descendant of Adam but was of the Holy Spirit. He was born holy. And never sinned.
The word "infirmities" means "Asteneia" which means sickness or weakness. It does not mean He had a sin nature. That is pretty stupid to say.
If you do not know, keep it to yourself.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/13


James L: I think that you are right on with your assessment. Our brother Trey seems to have missed:

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Christ was indeed made incarnate with an advantage of divinity that we do not possess, then how can He be our example? How does he expect us to be obedient without that advantage? And where does get off telling us not to sin?

Jesus laid aside his divinity for His earthly mission. How else could God die on the cross?



---jerry6593 on 3/27/13


\\Jerry your statement that Christ was born with the same sin nature as we have shows your lack of knowledge of who Christ really is!\\
---trey on 3/26/13

That is exactly why I asked this question about original sin, and what is it supposed to mean.

Was Jesus made like us, or not ??? Heb 2:14-18

If so, then what is to be made of this teaching that all men are born spiritually dead, born sinners, etc ??

If He wasn't made like us, then why does scripture declare that he was?

Maybe the doctrine is in conflict with scripture?
---James_L on 3/26/13


Jerry your statement that Christ was born with the same sin nature as we have shows your lack of knowledge of who Christ really is!

Mt1:20 ..., Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mt1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Christ's birth tells us that he was born of the Holy Spirit of God and that he is God and thus by his very nature is incapable of sin.

Jas1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
---trey on 3/26/13


\\every human being has been born with a sinful and corrupt nature.\\
---Mark_V. on 3/26/13

What do you mean by "nature" ??


\\Because of Adam all men are condemned to die physically and spiritually\\
---trey on 3/26/13

Was Jesus condemend to die spiritually? You do believe He is a man, right?


\\...we have a sinful nature and thus have a propensity toward sin...//
---jerry6593 on 3/26/13

In what part of man is this propensity found? spirit? flesh? mind? all the above?
---James_L on 3/26/13


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Isn't living outside of the garden of Eden means we have original sin?
There is an Angel with a sword standing in front of the garden to make sure none of us can enter the garden.
If we have no sin on us, why are we prohibit entrance?
---Nikki on 3/26/13


James L:

I believe that we have a sinful nature and thus have a propensity toward sin, but are not born with any guilt for the sins of our fathers.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

Jesus was born with the same sinful nature - but did not sin.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


---jerry6593 on 3/26/13


James L, original sin is not false. Original sin does not refer primarily to the first original sin committed by Adam. Original sin is the result of the first sin, the very corruption of the human race. The Bible clearly teaches that our original parents, Adam and Eve, fell in sin. Subsequently, every human being has been born with a sinful and corrupt nature. We are sinners not because we sin, Rather, we sin because we are sinners.
David says,
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). The baby did not commit sin, but was a sinner by nature. That's why David was sinful at birth.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/13


JamesL,
Original Sin:
Rom5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
*Adam's sin brought brought physical and spiritual death upon man. - Gen 2:17

Rom5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, ...
Because of Adam all men are condemned to die physically and spiritually (i.e. are spiritually dead.) Eph 2:1, Tit 3:5,

Are all dead:
Answer: Joh3:7 we must be born again (We are dead we must be made alive / regenerated.) Eph 2:1

All men born dead:
John the baptist was born again before he was born as evidenced by his joy concerning Christ - Lu 1:44.
Are all guilty: Rom 3:19
---trey on 3/26/13


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\\Original Sin is the truth! Those that would deny it have no understanding of scripture.\\
---trey on 3/22/13

You did the same thing here as you did in another thread.

What do you mean by the phrase original sin ??

Do you mean that every person will die physically because they are "In Adam" ??

Or do you mean that every person is born spiritually dead, sharing in Adam's guilt?

Or do you mean that every person has a propensity toward sin, but not actually guilty alongside Adam?

Ambiguity only serves to confuse people.

What good is it if 100 people agree with what you say, but only 1 knows what you meant?
---James_L on 3/25/13


Peter, I'll answer your question now since I just saw it. You said,
"Thus the Bible gives the general idea, but it the belief is not directly stated that we must believe it."
We must believe in original sin. The gospel of Jesus is very much dependent upon original sin. If there is no original sin, then a person does not need Christ. But all are in need of Christ to have eternal life. Everyone is separated from God. One reason the RCC made a big deal of original sin, was not to protect the gospel Truth, but protect Mary from original sin. But even Mary needed a Savior and She knew that to. For she said,
"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior" Mary referred to God as her "Savior"
---Mark_V. on 3/25/13


I think people are making a big deal over a simple matter.

Adam and Eve were not made the same. Eve came from Adam's rib, so Adam is the original person who caused the original sin.

God put Adam in charge in the garden. Adam didn't protect or stopped Eve from being tricked.
That's why God called Adam's name after they sinned. God wasn't looking for Eve, but Adam.

This is the reason the RCC blames Adam for the fall of man not Eve. Plus, Jesus came into our world as a man to undo Adam's sin to save us all.
---Nikki on 3/23/13


To understand original sin one must be able to understand:
Rom5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ro5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ps51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Original Sin is the truth! Those that would deny it have no understanding of scripture.
---trey on 3/22/13


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JamesL anyone can go and see why you posted this thread. On the other blog you stated why and started this argument there, and said I will start another blog with this question.

JamesL, it appears you are the confused one here....not just about me, but about the fact that ABEL became an HEIR OF RIGHTEOUSNESS when God accepted his sacrifice.

If he already was an Heir, no blood sacrifice would be needed.

You totally deny the Gospel in every way possible and redemption through the BLOOD. I never realized just how much until you started this blog.

God doesn't care about your touch feely opinions.

Now GET OFF OF ME ...
---kathr4453 on 2/13/13


\\JamesL, you originated this thread to start an argument with me\\
---Kathr4453

WRONG ! ! !

The argument was a foregone conclusion because you don't know how to talk peacefully, and it would have hijacked an unrelated thread.

My motive was to bring the argument to it's own thread, as I stated in the other thread.

And you didn't have to post here, did you? You willfully engaged. Nobody bated (baited?) you or twisted your arm

So, instead of accusing my motive after presuming WHY I initiated this thread, maybe you can crawl out of the subjective into the objective.

You might start to have more productive exchanges with people.
---James_L on 2/13/13


Pat, when you look at God, you find out that He is Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. Who knows everything, even before they happen for He ordained all things. Nothing happens outside of His will. He didn't cause satan or Adam to sin. But He knew if He gave them a choice, they would sin. So sin was in the plan of God. It would be impossible for God not to know they would sin, since God never changes. So sin was in the plan of God. Jesus was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world, so we do know that before anyone was created, He was going to die for the sins of many. The fall of Adam and all his descendants was in the plan of God. To say otherwise is to strip God of His omniscience.
---Mark_V. on 2/13/13


Yes, it's possible considering what's out there! First, we must clearly affirm that God Himself did not sin, and God is not to be blamed for sin. It was man who sinned, and it was angels who sinned, and in both cases thy did so by willing voluntary choice. Now, to the "original sin", which I myself consider to be in the angelic world with the fall of Satan and demons, in their rebelling against God....ALL SIN is ultimately irrational. It did not make sense for Satan to rebel against God. It is not the wise man but "the fool" WHO says in his heart, "There is no God" [Ps. 14:1]. It is "the fool" in the book of proverbs who recklessly indulges in all kinds of sins. SIN, JUST DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
---pat on 2/12/13


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Hi Mark V, my dear brother in Christ and my friend,

To throw my two cents in the mix. I believe Adam is the "Federal Head" of mankind because he was the first.

God made Adam in his image. Adam then sinned. After Adam sinned and he and Eve were forced out of the garden he "knew her" and she conceived and bare Cain and Abel. They were conceived in Adam's image (Gen 5:3). Even Righteous Abel was a sinner in need of a Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Lord bless you!
---trey on 2/12/13


JamesL, you originated this thread to start an argument with me, carrying over something I posted on another Blog, stating WHY I do not believe God created more humans after Adam and Eve, or that they had children in the garden before the fall.

You took that post, and posted it here to bate me, when I already told you what I BELIEVE.

FUNNY THING JAMESL, the MAJORITY here disagree,with you.

So your attack on me, just simply didn't work.

Try answering the others here who have posted. Afraid to?


And stop using "wicked "in place or RIGHTEOUS.
---kathr4453 on 2/12/13


James L, the way I see the fall is that God in the first place didn't have to put a curse on mankind. He could have easly forgiven Adam. He also didn't have to make Adam our representative, but He did. Why Adam and not Abel, we don't know. Maybe because he was the first person created by God. What we do know is that God is always right and just in His works. And because God gave Adam authority of his wife and all things and he failed God. What we do know is that Adam took everyone down with him. He did die that day for disobeying God as he was told he would, not a physical death but a spiritual one. Now, in order for a person to be save they have to be born of the Spirit, by been drawn to Him. Otherwise they remain condemn.
---Mark_V. on 2/12/13


\\I just don't wish to continue this conversation with YOU\\
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13

Yet, you continue. I guess you don't really mean what you say?


\\James L wants to use the word WICKED here under false pretenses.\\
---kathr4453 on 2/11/13

How do you know what I want to do? Are you able to read thoughts? Do you summon spirits of the dead also? Maybe you'll be into voodoo next, and make a doll of me so you can stick pins in it.

Our Old Adam ?? What the heck is that supposed to mean? You have a mystical, subjective Christianity.


\\JamesL starts to curse at me\\
---kathr4453 on 2/11/13

What ?!?

You are an abrasive, quarrelsome liar who needs to be avoided.
---James_L on 2/11/13


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Maybe we want to use the term here Righteous vs unrighteous. James L wants to use the word WICKED here under false pretenses.

Abel became an heir of RIGHTEOUSNESS when he obeyed God, offering a BLOOD sacrifice. He didn't become a nonwicked.

Many go about trying to establish their OWN righteousness, and fail to realize the ONLY Righteousness God accepts is the Righteousness of Christ.

I did see here, when I use the term RIGHTEOUS vs unrighteous JamesL starts to curse at me...scrambles up a reply by saying NO NO babies are not wicked.

Maybe not JamesL, but we are all UNRIGHTEOUS according to GOD's definition of unrighteous.

Read my CAPS Clearly!
---kathr4453 on 2/11/13


It's a matter of whether they are created wicked, or if they become wicked. It's a matter of whether or not BABIES are wicked.
---James_L on 2/10/13

You are missing key Scriptures in your understanding.

Rom 6:16 "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that ones slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness"

We are born slaves, slaves to sin. This slavery we inherited from the original sin of Adam. When we obey that sin, we incur condemnation from God, because the wages/consequence of sin is death.

Therefore, it is impossible for babies not to sin, since they are born into slavery to sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/11/13


"How simple this is, I really don't know why you argue this topic." MarkV

Simple for one to believe if they are "born of the Spirit" but for those who do not receive grace and mercy from God it will be impossible for them to believe in what is declared by the Spirit of God through His Word.

That's why many reject this truth declared by Paul although it's in black and white, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Which means explicitly, like it or not, all who came after Adam are already born in sin.

Such unbelief is proof that Paul was right in what he wrote.
---christan on 2/11/13


James L, you are making a mountain out of a small hill. Trying your best to win the argument. Do you not understand that we are people of flesh and bones? That is our nature. The flesh is sinful. When a baby is born he has a sinful nature. Though he might not have sin yet, sin is in his flesh, that is why he will die one day. How simple this is, I really don't know why you argue this topic.
"now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outburst of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like"
That is the nature of all human beings. Sinful.
---Mark_V. on 2/11/13


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No one is living in any Garden of Eden walking and talking with God today. That time in history is OVER.

YES Adam's sin caused this...it's called original SIN....not original SINS.

That's the problem with JamesL's understanding.

After the fall, GOD did not personally commune with man. He sent angels etc. Hebrews 1 make this clear...TODAY, God has spoken to us through HIS SON.

Now what separated God from mankind? Why is Jesus the ONLY mediator between God and man? We are SANCTIFIED through the body of Christ .

This is the GOSPEL, and why so many men let their pride reject it.


Jesus did not come or restore our old Adam back to God. He came to give us NEW LIFE through HIM.
---kathr4453 on 2/11/13


Nana,
that's good stuff. I missed your earlier post with the same contention.


Mark_V,
One verse ?? I quoted from about 6 verses.

It's not a matter of whether or not men are wicked. We all agree there. It's a matter of whether they are created wicked, or if they become wicked. It's a matter of whether or not BABIES are wicked.

You say a fool can become a fool. How does that work?

Paul is building the case that no one is without excuse. If the only guilt they have is in Adam, they DO have an excuse.

What gives?

Look at the scriptures Nana quoted. People BECOME filthy
---James_L on 2/10/13


Psalm 14:2_3: "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

As one may say, "Our youth these Days have no respect for their elders...", the Psalmist specified "the children of men" as the point
of statement. That is evident when he says, "they are all gone aside" and "all together become filthy".

Likewise:
Isaiah 1:2 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."
---Nana on 2/10/13


O, what a web of deception the great deceiver has cast on the multitudes of this world. They reject what God has proclaimed and that is,

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." They call God a liar for telling them this and foolishly think it's not true.

Such are these that according to the Scriptures they are called fools and wicked by God. "The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble." Proverbs 4:19, "A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips, and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue." Proverbs 17:4
---christan on 2/10/13


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James L, you avoided the whole context and just picked one verse to make a case for yourself, it was a good trick many use, especially cults.
The passages were speaking of unrighteous people already, who through creation knew God, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even the eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" These people professed they were wise they became fools, and the longer they lived, they became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Read the whole context and if you have a question ask God.
---Mark_V. on 2/10/13


Sorry jamesL, but calvin did not invent the doctrine of original sin. The problem with you is you spend too much time reading nonsense online attributing the doctrine of original sin to Calvinism.

Lets be clear, I don't believe original sin means total depravity where fallen man is incapable of faith.

I just don't wish to continue this conversation with YOU...Yes, that was in CAPS!
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13


Kathr,
I guess you just proved that you have no answer for what scripture says.

I guess that means you would rather hold to the traditions of Augustine and Calvin, instead of adhering to the word of God.

Hypocrite - bashing Calvin and his doctrine, all the while embracing the building blocks of it
---James_L on 2/9/13


Like I said JamesL, the natural carnal man cannot understand spiritual things. You just proved that.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13


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\\\You claim those born after Adam had the righteousness of Christ at birth.\\
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13

Put my words in quotation marks. Otherwise, keep your false accusations to yourself


\\since you promote human trafficking\\
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13

Again, Put it in quotations. Explaining it and supporting it are two entirely different things.


\\James L, it was a good trick when you used (Rom. 1:21-23)....They were lost already and became fools.\\
---Mark_V. on 2/9/13

How does someone become a fool if he's born a fool?

What does it mean that they knew God?

Can you answer?
---James_L on 2/9/13


Nana, did you read in Hebrews 11 exactly what made Abel righteous to begin with? The righteous in scripture are all who's FAITH is in God through Christ. OT saints looked forward to the coming redeemer, as did Abel when he obeyed and offered a blood sacrifice which he then became an heir of the righteousness, which is BY FAITH, not birth .
---kath4453 on 2/9/13


"YES, Kathr. ..."
James_L on 2/8/13

One verse in favor:
Matthew 23:35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

Another inferred:
Isaiah 1:2 "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."
Were they raised and brought up in righteousness or unrighteousness?
It was Augustine who started harping this idea, the core of Calvin's five points. A fine pair, an orator and a lawyer..., are you convinced without a shadow of doubt then? I am not.
---Nana on 2/9/13


The act of procreation is not of God? O boy, so much for one calling themselves Christian.

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3

"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." Psalm 33:6

"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." Colossians 1:16

Now why do you think He created a man and woman?
---christan on 2/9/13


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Ecclesiastes ( 7:20)
"For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin"
Solomon gave great emphasis to the general effects of sin ( Gen. 3:1-24) and also points out the Universality of personal transgressions. Paul may have recalled this passage when he wrote (Rom. 3:10,11)
"As it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one,
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks after God"
---Mark_V. on 2/9/13


James L, it was a good trick when you used (Rom. 1:21-23) to say that people who are righteous can become unrighteous. That is not what the passages in (Rom. 1:21-23) are talking about. You missed the whole context. (v.16) is talking about God's wrath on the unrighteousness.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them..." The subject is those who are unrighteous, not that they were righteous and became unrighteous. They were lost already and became fools.
---Mark_V. on 2/9/13


I can answer all of you here at once.

Creation ENDED on the 6th day PERIOD.

Eve is the mother do ALL LIVING. PERIOD. (Shame on you Shira)

Man born after ADAM did not have the righteousness of CHRIST, unless JAMESL you do not believe Jesus Christ is GOD.

You claim those born after Adam had the righteousness of Christ at birth.. You blaspheme JamesL.

There is no factory in heaven where God creates human parts and innards. Man was originally created in the image of God. We now need Jesus Christ in us to conformed to HIS IMAGE.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13


JamesL, to be honest here, since you promote human trafficking and illegal activity of human trafficking in this country, you are in no position to be discussing anything remotely connected to righteousness. You are totally daft on the subject.
---kathr4453 on 2/9/13


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To answer Kathr4453 who writes:

"Born, believe it or not the only people GOD MADE was Adam & Eve. Everyone after that is born of Adam & Eve. God did not individually make or create every human being as He did Adam & Eve." TO ANSWER: I NOT BELIEVE YOU.

Deut 32:6
Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Psalm 119:73
Your hands made me and formed me.

Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being, you knit me together in my mothers womb.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.


Job 10:10-12
Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews?
---born on 2/8/13


kathr, actually the bible does not say if God made any more people after adam and eve. so you really don't know if He did or not. I also believe the giants in that day was dinasaurs. we don't know that either because God didn't say. what ever God didn't put in His Word is because we don't need to know.
---shira4368 on 2/8/13


David said, "I was altogether born in sin, "and he was not saying his mother was a hoochie mama.\\
---kathr4453

How do you know what he was or wasn't saying? Is there enough context to determine?

Don't some employ this same pick-and-choose method to teach soul sleep, based on one sentence without a context? The dead konw nothing, according to Solomon. Never mind what is greatly expounded elsewhere.

One obscure verse from the Psalms or Proverbs or Ecclesiastes is enough to build an elaborate doctrine?

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, Kathr.
---James_L on 2/8/13


\\...where is any scripture teaching anyone is born righteous until they become unrighteousness?\\
---Kathr4453

Romans 1:21-32
though they knew God, they did not honor him

they BECAME futile

their foolish hearts were darkened

they BECAME fools

and EXCHANGED the glory of the immortal God for images

THEREFORE, God gave them up

they EXCHANGED the truth for a lie

since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up



YES, Kathr. the bible DOES teach that people BECOME unrighteous.

Do you think that means believers who lost their salvation?

Who are they that became, exchanged, no longer acknowledged God, etc ????
---James_L on 2/8/13


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Born, believe it or not the only people GOD MADE was Adam & Eve. Everyone aftetr that is born of Adam & Eve. God did not individually make or create every human being as He did Adam & Eve.

So this is what Solomon is saying. God DID make man upright, and man = Adam, Eve sinned.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/13


Ecclesiastes 7:29 simply implies to the beginning of His creation in which He declared, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Now, bear in mind that this was before the fall of man.

The minute Adam and Eve was driven out by God from His presence, the Spirit of God explicitly declared, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." This declaration is without exception, meaning no one born after the fall is good, "no not one".

To think and believe otherwise would be foolish and deep in deception by the evil one.
---christan on 2/8/13


Ecclesiastes 7:29 (ERV)
There is one other thing I have learned. God made people good, but they have found many ways to be bad.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (EXB)
One thing I have learned [found]:
God made people good [virtuous, upright],
but they have found all kinds of ways to be bad [sought out many devices].

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (KJV)
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (NET)
This alone have I discovered: God made humankind upright,
but they have sought many evil schemes.
---Born on 2/8/13


Peter you say
(that there should only be one denomination).
Do you consider, the Church, the Body of Christ, a "denomination"?
I say if we would forget the man made denominations and adhere to Paul's teaching to the BoC, there would not be numerous ways in which original sin is taught
---michael_e on 2/8/13


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It's beyond me that anyone who claims to know the "Gospel" will also make statements that people are born Righteous, and in a relationship with God right from their birth apart from Jesus Christ, and can commune with God /walk with God apart from Jesus Christ. So you are saying there is more than one way to God.

OR are you saying man is born righteous, until he personally sins, then after he sins must go to God through Jesus who alone becomes our Righteousness.

How does one know they have sinned? So those indiginous people who have never heard of sin or what sin is, are automatically righteous until the Law condemns them? Not according to Romans 2 JamesL!
---kathr4453 on 2/8/13


"Original sin" (better known as the fall of man) is best taught by Paul in Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die".

Hence, the Spirit of God declares: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

The simple truth is, this is the state of mankind before God. No need for theories and commentaries. Any other teachings outside of the apostle Paul's epistle is speculation.
---christan on 2/8/13


Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw how great mans wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Matthew 19:17 (NKJV) Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
---bike on 2/8/13


James L, I agree with Kathr. What occured when Adam sinned was spiritual death, separation from God to all of Adam descendants. God said to Adam,

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for "in the day" that you eat of it you shall surely die"

We know Adam did not die physically the moment he sinned. He lived over 900 years. But he did die spiritually that day, because he was separated from the love of God since Adam disobeyed and brought sin into the world. The reason God has to make us spiritually alive, when He draws us to Himself, no more separation from God.
(Eph. 2:1-3) tells us who we were before God made us alive.
---Mark_V. on 2/8/13


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Oh but JamesL, how presumptuous to say neither JackB or I or anyone other than you understand Romans 5, not to mention 1 st Cor 15 ALSO SAYS, the first man Adam was a life giving soul, the Last Adam is a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. That which was first was not spiritual but carnal.

Here is where it gets over your head. I totally agree with JackB here who also touched on this very thing. WE are raised up a NEW CREATURE, not resurrected an old Adam. I AM CRUCIFIED with Christ....my old Adam 1 is DEAD with Christ( do you even know why we must identify with Christ in His Death?) ..to be raised a NEW CREATURE who is now a begotten child of God THROUGH JESUS CHRIST?

You don't JamesL....as your posts all over CNN have proved you don't.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/13


JamesL, you started this post to push your own 1001 doctrine of how babies are born righteous, until they sin. But where is any scripture teaching anyone is born righteous until they become unrighteousness?

David said, " I was altogether born in sin, "and he was not saying his mother was a hoochie mama. The 7th son, youngest son of Jesse.

And since you argued this on Leon,s question, are you too agreeing Adam Eve had righteous children before the fall? Anywhere is says God kicked them out of the Garden too? Or are they locked away inside still to this day?

Some things JamesL you really do have to be Born Again to understand....the natural man does not understands the things of the spirit.
---kathr4453 on 2/8/13


Kathr,
you don't understand the context of Romans 5.

Rom 5:10
having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The context is physical resurrection. Compare the Rom 5 with 1Corinthians 15

---------------------
Rom 5:12 sin entered through one man, so death spread to all men

1Cor 15:21 For since by a man came death...

-------------------
Rom 5:18 So then as through on transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
---James_L on 2/7/13


Michael E: I would somewhat disagree on that.

Your comment about denominations is about something that Scripture never mentions, and so my assumption at least assumes should not exist (that there should only be one denomination).

The question of original sin connects to many passages, especially Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15, but the statement of exactly how it should be taught is not directly taught

Thus the Bible gives the general idea, but it the belief is not directly stated that we must believe it. Over time, the developed church (the Church of the Apostolic Succession, meaning the Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican) have formed a general agreement as to about what they agree to, but it is not exact
---Peter on 2/7/13


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James L, there's numerous ways in which original sin is taught cause there is numerous different kinds of beliefs people follow. It is possible that many teachings are false, for only one is true. The other ones have to be false. I believe it takes knowledge of the word of God to know which one is correct. People that want all babies in heaven have one way, People that want good people without Christ in heaven another way, people that believe in free will have another way. But those who believe in God's Election believe another way, the correct way. For only those who were chosen by God before the foundation of the world will be saved.
That is the one people do not like. They want the right to choose, they do not want God to choose for them.
---Mark_V. on 2/7/13


//Why are there numerous ways in which original sin is taught?//
The same reason there are numerous "denominations"
How many sects are their in the baptist denomination alone, that can't agree. Mainly because they ignore "right division"
---mlchael_e on 2/7/13


---James_L on 2/6/13
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

This is the only way that I know it can be taught. That because of one man's sin, then sin came into the world

We may not have committed the exact same sin as Adam, nor did we inherit the sin of Adam, but we inherited the sin nature ( SIN NATURE AND HUMAN NATURE are not the same)
---francis on 2/7/13


OOPS. You forgot to check your speculation at the door, so you're reading into the passage something it never hints at.
---James_L on 2/7/13


No JamesL you did. I too believe Romans 5 and is stated over and over. No where does it say that from Adam to Moses man was righteous until the Law came.

Abel offering a blood sacrifice states he through faith BECAME an heir, (as it so clearly stated in Hebrews 11) of the righteousness, becauee of his faith in the coming Messiah who would die for the sin of man. If he were already sinless, why bother.
---kathr4453 on 2/7/13


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We arent condemned for Adam's sins. We are condemned for our own. However we are made a sinner because we are a son of Adam.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" --- Romans 5:18,19

A son is made in the likeness of his father.
The son of a goat is a goat.
The son of a cow, a cow.
The son of a sinner, a sinner.
The son of God, God

Jesus gives us his life (thru the Spirit) and transforms us from a "son of Adam" into a "son of God".
---JackB on 2/7/13


\\Nobody is going to hell because of Adam, and babies are not born spiritually connected to Adam.\\
---James_L on 2/5/13


\\Ephesians 2:1-6....Twice, Paul says in these six verses that we "were dead"not physically dead but spiritually dead. unless JamesL you believe Paul was addressing the physically resurrected.\\
---kathr4453 on 2/6/13


ok.
So where's the verse that says people are born that way?

Where's the verse that says that this spiritual death is inherited from Adam?

OOPS. You forgot to check your speculation at the door, so you're reading into the passage something it never hints at.
---James_L on 2/7/13


Satan wants humanity to be sloppy/careless in it's use of words (Semantics/word usage is more important than we realize, we LIVE and 'think' the words we speak). There is no such thing as "original" sin (the word "ORIGINAL" suggests that it's STILL IN EFFECT, but Jesus DESTROYED sin,..."sin" no longer exists for us Jesus worshipers). Spiritual sin can only happen if you choose to live by the IMPERFECT LAW that the ancient Jews lived by, now we must live by the PERFECT law (James 1:25, 2:12). We have the true/genuine and everlasting cleansing and should have no more awareness of something called "sin" (Hebrews 10:2).

Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. It was INITIAL SIN that was committed.
---more_excellent_way on 2/7/13


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