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Does God Live By Man

Is GOD's Power limited by man's understanding? Is GOD's Power limited by a man's lack of faith? In other words, can GOD be stuffed in a box made by religious men?

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 ---Gordon on 2/14/13
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Continued'
Is 28:11 ["stammering lips" # 3932 "baffoon, a foreigners, a mockers tongue."]
Is 28:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, "Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:

he that believeth shall not make hast."

I Pet 2:6-8 ("Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture,) "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and

he that believeth on Him shall not be--(confounded.")

"Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the Stone Which the builders disallowed, the same is made a head of the corner,"
Continued' Is 9:9
---char on 2/27/13


Continued'

Word appointed to Israel:
Is 46:10 "[...] (`My counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it.")

Is 46:11 "Calling (a ravenous bird from the east), the man that executeth My counsel for a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass: I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Cyrus: (ravenous bird from the east)
Persia - east of both (Babylon), and Jerusalem
As written Gods plan is played out as He allows Cyrus to bring His plan
Gods warning of two forms of ancient idolatry (spoken by Nimrod) that came out of the earliest Babylonian empire Gen 10:8-12,Gen11:5-6

Continued'
---char on 2/27/13


Continued'

I Peter 2:8-11 "And a Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:"

"Which in times past (were not a people, but are now the people of God): which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul,"

Continued'
Is 9:9
---char on 2/27/13


Continued' ---Answer - No.
Word (they-Israel) were appointed becomes a stumbling block

(the House of Judah)
7-11 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up in wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."

"For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean."

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little:"For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people."

Is9:9
Continued'
---char on 2/27/13


"...why bother [blogging]...since...nothing anyone says here will influence anyone's salvation or relationship with God [one bit]? [Let's] all just...wait to die & collect our rewards...pre-selected since the foundations of the world?...I don't recall anyone in the Bible [doing] that...many exhort us to CHOOSE the right way - something that would be totally meaningless if we didn't have a free will to [choose]."
---StrongAxe on 2/27/13


Amen 'Axe! Chris & Mark's mutual admiration society, false doctrine cult, "freely chooses" not to accept our God-given ability to "freely choose". "Show me" they shout. But, no one can show them what they're not "willing" to see. :)
---Leon on 2/27/13




Continued'
Babel:confusion/confounded

Gen 11[...] build city/tower, top may reach unto heaven[...] make us a name, lest[...] scattered abroad [...]face of earth)
[...]city[...]tower[...]children of men builded." [Bel]
[...]people is one,[...]all one language,[...] now nothing will be restrained[...]they have imagined to do."[Nebo]
[...]the name of it called Babel, because the Lord [...]
(confound the language of all the earth)
and from thence - Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."

IPet 2 ("Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture,) "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and

he that believeth on Him shall not be--(confounded.")
---char on 2/27/13


Cornelius was a Gentile, whom the door of faith to Gentiles was opened, Acts 10 14: 27. Cornelius "prayed to God always" Acts 10: 2.

But Cornelius was lost. Cornelius was very religious, but he was not saved 10: 2, 11: 14.

Cornelius had to hear the gospel and obey it in order to become saved 11: 14, 10: 34-48. God heard Cornelius' prayers "come up as a memorial before God," 10: 4 and God arranged for Cornelius to hear the gospel and learn how to become saved Acts 10: 5-48. Jesus promised, "Seek, and ye shall find..." and "if any man will willeth to do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..."

God heard Hagar's prayers too, however Hagar was not God's ELECT. Sarah was!
---kathr4453 on 2/27/13


christan * "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Very true, Jesus will not cast you out but does it mean you can't leave,no. In fact you can: Judas was given by the Father and he left and Jesus disciples in Jhn 6 v 66 left Jesus and walk no more with him!


christan * Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM BY MY FATHER" JOHN 6:37,65 -

This is not a one-time event, Father keeps drawing you, you will keep coming. And who are those he keeps drawing -Those who "listen' and "learned ' v45..
---Ruben on 2/27/13


Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have FOLLOWED ME, in the regeneration ---
***One needs to FOLLOW JESUS in the Regeneration.*** Something WE DO!

Regeneration is not some mystical experience you dont even know that its happening to you FIRST before hearing Gods WORD. .
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing( REGENERATION) of water by the word,

We are Born Again of the WORD OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/13


Answer - No.
God's Word was (appointed) to Israel (Chosen) His witness that His Exist- God.
Plumb-line: always right on line and fair. Isaiah 28 (all),Isaiah 44 (all)
Is 43:12[...]therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

They were (appointed-The Word) and (at the Word appointed) They were disobedient.
Isaiah 28 (all)

Is 28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are over-come with wine."
(Tribe scattered by the Assyrians
Directed: House of Israel (Ephraim) the ten tribes who were (appointed the Word of God) that very corner stone - becomes a stumbling block
---char on 2/27/13




christan on:

If you truly believe that man has no free will, why bother with these blogs at all, since clearly nothing anyone says here will influence anyone else's salvation or relationship with God in the slightest? Why shouldn't we all just go home, rest on our laurels, wait to die, and collect our rewards that have already been pre-selected since the foundations of the world? That would be a logical conclusion. However, I don't recall anyone in the Bible recommeing acting like that. In fact, many exort us to CHOOSE the right way - something that would be totally meaningless if we didn't have a free will to make a choice.
---StrongAxe on 2/27/13


Continued' ---Answer - No.
Word (they-Israel) were appointed becomes a stumbling block

(the House of Judah)
7-11 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up in wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."

"For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean."

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little:"For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people."

Is9:9
Continued'
---char on 2/27/13


Bro, Christan, very true, you say,
"But "free-willers" have other ideas that's unbiblical in that the man (though dead in trespass and sins), still has the ability to turn to God without be "regenerated". That's the contention."
Kathr once admitted she came to Christ with no faith, and once she did, because of her good deed, Christ gave her faith to believe. Others believe in free will, because this way, they can come and go if they want. Always in control. And when she has no biblical answer, she tells everyone I abuse my wife. How about that? And she does not even know me. That is all many can do, throw rocks at you, because they want to be in control, they don't want God to be in control.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


Brother MarkV, this is the problem with free-willers - delusion of having a "free-will" adds to the confusion and they have no idea of what they are saying. They're so confused with their own lies that they accuse others of what they actually believe in to be that of others opposing "free-will". Such is their state of confusion.

We who do not believe in "free-will" still wait (not holding our breath whatsoever) for them to present a single verse of such a teaching that God have given mankind a "free-will" that they boast about. All the talk is nothing but hot-air, vanity and pride of the fallen man who think highly of themselves before the Creator, when we are told we're all nothing before Him.
---christan on 2/27/13


christan, that is just your theory. As there are many more scriptures that would say otherwise. Therefore it is important to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.

Take Cornelius. He wasn't Born Again ( that is"Born Again" as scripture states what Born Again means, not your definition) until he heard the Gospel correct. But we do see he was a man who believed in God, a very religious person, and prayed. Now we don't see any evidence that God regenerated him first, but sent Peter to preach the Gospel to him. Now tell us HOW did God communicate to Peter to go to Cornelius? WHY was Peter even needed? .

And WHEN did the Holy Spirit come on Cornelus and his family?
---kathr4453 on 2/27/13


The discourse is not about the unregenerate sinner and God reviving his "dead spirit". It is true, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth", without a question of doubt.

According to the Scripture, God has already chosen whom He is going to save "before the foundations of the world" as told in Ephesians 1, giving credence to the doctrine of sovereign election and predestination of the saints.

But "free-willers" have other ideas that's unbiblical in that the man (though dead in trespass and sins), still has the ability to turn to God without be "regenerated". That's the contention.
---christan on 2/27/13


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Gordon, it has been a while and nothing, not one passage that says God gave man a free will. Not even one. All of you speak so highly of a man having a will that is free, it must be in the Bible hundreds of times and you know what? It is not there even one time. You gave,
"'For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen.' MATTHEW 22:14."
and Leon gave you an amen. Do you see free will there? No. Do you see man chosing Christ? No. What do you see?
"few are chosen" it does not say "few chose Christ" I give you an amen for putting another passage that say "few are chosen"

Sis. Shira, I do not see any spiritual boundaries. Can you provide one?
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


Kathr, here is what you said about us, which is exactly what you belief,
"I think the bottom line here is, Christan Markv believe unregenerate man is actually more powerful than the power of God's Word"

That is exactly what you are teaching. "That unregenerate man has more power then God when you say God cannot save whom He wants." That God has to wait for man to give Him permission, otherwise man can checkmate God whenever they wants.
What we are saying is, that God can and does change unregenerate man whenever He so desires, and whomever He so desires to regenerate. Get it right. Also, find one passage where God said the will of man is free.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


I think the bottom line here is, Christan Markv believe unregenerate man is actually more powerful than the power of God's Word, that is Living And Powerful and sharper than a two edge sword piercing between soul and spirit, joint and marrow ...etc. God Word trumps most powerfully over our fallen nature, yet even with our fallen nature the Power of His Word, is more powerful than we are. If one actually believes God cannot break through to an unregenerate man, they place the power of man over the Power of God. The preaching of the Cross IS THE POWER OF GOD.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/13


"All men shall be drawn, but, not all will accept." Gordon

Seriously? Why do you lie about what Christ taught? And this is what He taught:

"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM BY MY FATHER" JOHN 6:37,65 - "All men shall be drawn" is the very work of the Father, and nothing to do with your "free-will".

See anywhere in Christ's teaching that "you have to accept"? Rather it contradicts and condemns your "free-will" to nothing but a fallacy and delusion of a fallen heart.
---christan on 2/26/13


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All men -
Joh12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The all men are all the elect family of God.

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Mt1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

"his people" the elect family of God!
---trey on 2/26/13


"YAHUSHUA (JESUS), God the Son, says in JOHN 12:32 'And I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw ALL MEN unto Me.' All men shall be drawn, but, not all will accept. 'For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen.' MATTHEW 22:14."
---Gordon on 2/26/13


Excellent Gordon! It can be no plainer than that. I get it, but as you know MANY here unfortunately don't & won't.
---Leon on 2/26/13


YAHUSHUA (JESUS), God the Son, says in JOHN 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw ALL MEN unto Me." All men shall be drawn, but, not all will accept. "For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen." MATTHEW 22:14.
---Gordon on 2/26/13


Never mind Chris. It's quite apparent your cognitive reasoning abilities are extremely limited & you just don't get it. Okay, have a good day! :)
---Leon on 2/26/13


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markv, God has given us many boundaries. both spiritually and physically. man has gone out of the boundaries God set for us. we have sexual boundaries, country boundaries, race boundaries and many more. we have crossed all the lines God set for us beginning with eve. she left her boundaries God had given her and the result is sin.
---shira4368 on 2/26/13


Leon, there's nothing for you to choose with regards to salvation or better known as going to Christ. If it's really up to you to choose between life and death, because of our sin nature after the fall, we're all heading for the broad gate. And that's because our father Adam got us all condemned! Understand?

And what's there to choose for the sinner if God Almighty has already chosen? Your "free-will" falls flat on the face because of what Christ declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Talk about hardness of the heart.
---christan on 2/26/13


GOD GIVEN "FREE WILL" FOR MAN TO CHOOSE:

G2:16-18 (ESV) And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil you will not eat, for in the day that you [will to] eat of it you will surely die.

Robots/machines don't have "free will" to choose, but man does! "In the day that you eat" implies God gave Adam the ability to freely choose, to willing obey or sin against Him. We know the rest of the story, don't we? Adam was free to do so & he "freely" chose poorly. Mankind has been exercising "free will" ever since!
---Leon on 2/26/13


Okay Chris! Let's talk about your "free will" to rail angrily against the truth of God's word to which you clearly lack a very significant understanding. Do you suppose "you were appointed to be ignorant"? Instead, because of the hardness of your heart, you have "freely chosen" to be boxed in by your own self-righteous, stiff-necked, "self-willed" foolishness.
---Leon on 2/25/13


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Gordon, just another comment for man. Now say,
"Even the Free-will choice that GOD gave us is limited by boundries which HE's established. Spiritual Boundries that GOD alone set forth"
Where in all Scripture does it say God gave man a will that is free and where He set spiritual boundaries? You keep saying God gave man free will, but never able to show one passage. Why? Because there is no such passage. The more you say it, the more you belief it, the more you belief it, the more you argue for it. Something that is invisible in Scripture, like the invisible angels that you see stopping cars.
The will of the lost is slave to sin. The will of the believers is slave to Christ. Thats in Scripture. It is never free.
---Mark_V. on 2/26/13


"Man's lack of faith keeps him from experiencing the power of God." Leon

You give too much credit and exalt your "free-will" that doesn't even exist. That's because according Peter, we are explicitly told, "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED."

One who's in unbelief is simply because "THEY WERE APPOINTED", meaning purposed to not belief! Didn't God declare, "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

So much for your "free-will".
---christan on 2/25/13


Q. Is GOD's Power limited by man's understanding?

A. No! Man's understanding is limited by God's power.

Q. Is GOD's Power limited by a man's lack of faith? In other words, can GOD be stuffed in a box made by religious men?

A. Man's lack of faith keeps him from experiencing the power of God. In other words, man boxes "himself" in by what he thinks (religiously believes about life) & refuses to think outside the box of his finite understanding. But, God's infinite power isn't confined nor limited to being in a box. God's Truth sets free!!! (Jn, 8:31-32 ~ Ro. 1:16)
---Leon on 2/25/13


StrongAxe, Agreed! GOD is GOD! HE's not under subjection to HIS creation. Even the Free-will choice that GOD gave us is limited by boundries which HE's established. Spiritual Boundries that GOD alone set forth. Us having free-will does not diminish GOD's complete Authority and Control, as some here accuse. It's the opposite. Man has free-will only because GOD Himself designed it that way! HE wants our love for HIM to be freely expressed. NOT something that we are "forced" to do, where we have no other choice. TRUE Love can never be forced. It must always be freely offered and freely accepted. Otherwise it's not real Love. There's no Bible Verse that says "Man has free-will". Rather it's known by how the whole Bible plays out!
---Gordon on 2/25/13


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Gordon:

Considering that God created the universe long before Man was even on the picture (so he had no understanding at all), We must conclude that the answer to the blog question must necessarily be "no".
---StrongAxe on 2/25/13


The false doctrine of OSAS, and this false interpretation of Predestination are what's corrupt, Mark V. You have borne false witness and have TWISTED what I have said about GOD. I always testify that GOD is THE Almighty. Our having free-will choice does not take away HIS ultimate Control. HE offers a Choice between Life and Death to everyone. HE gives the Faith to believe to those who WANT to! Some people, Mark, are sick of their sin and of the destruction they've brought upon themselves and onto others by their sinful choices. They are the ones who see their need for GOD's Offer of Salvation. Unlike those who LOVE THEIR SIN TOO MUCH to repent of it and be saved. Some of your beliefs are FALSE, Mark. Maybe you'll wake up to that fact SOMEDAY.
---Gordon on 2/25/13


Mark_V.* Ruben, no one is righteous before God without the imputed righteousness of Christ.

But you said quoting scripture:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands,"

Nothing here that says only 'believers'!


Mark_V.* No unbeliever seeks after God.

Because they 'refuse to come to me'(Jhn 5:40)


Mark_V * Only believers, the sheep hear the voice of Christ and only they follow Him and He gives them eternal life, and He never loses one. For they will never perish.

It does not say they 'Heard my voice ..
---Ruben on 2/25/13


Gordon, instead of getting personal, show proof from the Word of God. Stand for the Truth. Make your day worthy to the Lord. Give Him the glory once in a while, tell others how great He is and not how helpless He is. Show them our faith is in Christ, not in ourselves. Do what you do on your knees before God. Trust in Him for all things. We are people of faith in the Lord. Faith in Him even when things go wrong. He will find a way out from our tribulations, He always does.
And stop listening to the Pentacostal Word of Faith teachers, they are corrupt.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/13


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Gordon, you say,
" can GOD be stuffed in a box made by religious men?"
Only by people like you who claim He is not able to do what He wants. He has to wait for man's permission. Making man God and God a servant who brings glory to man, instead of man bringing glory to God. "An you get angry and personal when you are told God has the right to choose whom He wants to have mercy on and save, you want man to have that right." the reason you posted the blog. Since you started you have not once given any glory to God, it is all about man, man can saved himself with his free will, and he can fall by his free will, man can see invisible angels, and satan is all powerful. What about God? What is He, groundmeat?
---Mark_V. on 2/25/13


Gordon, what you call false doctrines are doctrines from Scripture. I give you Scripture, you reject it and give me your denominational beliefs. And when you have no answer you get personal, like the rest. At no time have I spoken of OSAS with you. Yet you throw that at me. You are judging me without cause. You could not provide one passage where God said He gave man free will, no passages where God said He has prophets or apostles today, no passages where God said, man is able to see invisible angels stopping cars or holding someone down. It's all been talk, your denominational beliefs. Then you get angry and frustrated at me. If God is not God then man is god. It is God's plan, and not conditional on man's works.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/13


Mark V, I am not attacking YOU personally. I am attacking what you believe! That is, the false interpretation of Predestination and the false doctrine of OSAS which you cling to. It's because you are so sold out to and are so enmeshed with those two false doctrines, then, when I come against THEM, you feel that I'm attacking you as well. For you and your false doctrines are as one, since you adhere to them tenaciously. But, me? I aim only at your doctrines and NOT YOU. And, again, I tell you.....I've given you sufficient Scriptures, but you've filtered those Scriptures by the grids of OSAS and the misinterpretation of Predestination . So, with you, it's become a waste of time. You've been informed plenty of times by now.
---Gordon on 2/24/13


Mark V, Can't you understand that GOD's Offering of the Choice between Life and Death, Good and Evil, as mentioned in DEUTERONOMY, is along the same lines as the Choice between Salvation and Damnation that we have today?? GOD is offering us the Choice between Salvation and Damnation in the exact same way that HE offered the Choice between Life and Death to those back in DEUTERONOMY. So, if GOD offers us a Choice, then, that means we have the free-will to CHOOSE one over the other. Salvation = Good and Life. Damnation = Evil and Death.
---Gordon on 2/24/13


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Gordon, every time you speak you throw another stab at me personally. Why can you not answer without sinning? Having a free will is saying your will is free. It is never free. If lost your will is to do the desires of your father the devil. If you are born again your will is to do the will of God. Why don't you understand?

Ruben, no one is righteous before God without the imputed righteousness of Christ. No unbeliever seeks after God. Only believers seek God. Only believers, the sheep hear the voice of Christ and only they follow Him and He gives them eternal life, and He never loses one. For they will never perish.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/13


Gordon 2: you say,
" HE, therefore, would have not even bothered to offer them a Choice between Life and Death."
He did give them a choice, and will judge us by our choices. If God had said, He was giving man a will that is free to do what it wants, He would not be able to judge us right or wrong since it was His fault He gave us that free will. He never said to do what we want. He tells us to choose. And when we choose we are judge by that choice.
The definition of free will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For a will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. But every choice we make has a reason, it is always bias.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/13


Mark V, If those people, in DEUTERONOMY, could not have chosen one thing over the other, if they had no free-will to choose one thing over the other, regarding Life or Death, then, GOD, WHO KNOWS ALL THINGS, would have KNOWN that, RIGHT? and HE, therefore, would have not even bothered to offer them a Choice between Life and Death. But, continue on in your BLINDNESS in this matter, if you want to, Mark V. It's your CHOICE.
---Gordon on 2/22/13


Mark_V.*..Therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live!"

God had not given them faith to believe.

Then why tell them to chose 'Life'?

Mark_V * To believers He says,
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ " (Phil. 1:29).

Read what Paul tells the same believers in Phil 2:12-16..

Mark_V.* "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands,

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 and verse 5 reads:

"There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous."


Mark_V.* There is none who seek after God" (Rom. 3:10,11).

Mark, do you not seek God?
---Ruben on 2/22/13


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well markv, when we make a choice, it is us using our free will. guess you don't get it and there is no need for further discussion concerning free will. you will never change and I will never change so guess we are even now.
---shira4368 on 2/22/13


Sis Shira, none of the passages you gave say anything about a person having free will. They speak of making a choice. To make a choice is not saying a man has free will because the will of man is not free, and if it was, the Bible would contradict itself.
Here is what Jesus said to those who claimed God was their Father.
"If God were you Father, you would love Me" for only those who belong to the Father love Christ. He also says, "Why do you not understand My speech?" and Jesus gives the answer,
"Because you are not able to listen to My Word" You know why? Jesus said,
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:42-44).
---Mark_V. on 2/22/13


markv, deuteronmy 30:19---Joshua 24:15k---job 34:4--job 34:33---proverbs 1:29-30-31---Isaiah: 7:15-16--. God cannot be put in a box but modern liberalism has tried to market God.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


Sis Shira, you keep saying man has a free will to receive Christ, and to this day, I have not read one passage from anyone, that tells us man has a will that's free. Not a one. Don't you think that if millions of you believe in free will, they would be able to provide at least four or five passages? I'm not asking for the world. And you know why you won't find those passages? Because they are not there. It's an invention of mans mind. Free will means exactly that, a will that is free. And the Bible no where teaches the will of man is free to receive Christ. Instead it teaches that fallen man's will in slave to sin. And teaches that believers will is slave to God, at no time is the will free.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/13


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Gordon, you gave,

DEUTERONOMY 30:15-19 Where God is asking them to make a choice."..Therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live!"

Nowhere do we read the will is free. And what did they do? They reject the Lord. You know why? Because they had no faith. God had not given them faith to believe. To believers He says,
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ, you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29). Do you know why it says that? because the lost have no faith "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands, There is none who seek after God" (Rom. 3:10,11).
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13


Mark V, DEUTERONOMY 30:15-19 says "See, I have set before thee this day Life and Good, Death and Evil...I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you Life and Death, Blessing and Cursing: Therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live!" THAT, Mark V, is how GOD operates and presents the Choice of Salvation and Damnation before each one of us today. This Verse is not taken out of context, as I KNOW you'll accuse! It shows us how GOD IS and how HE operates. HE presents the Choice before us, and we freely choose which one we want. HE desires that we all choose Salvation, but, HE does not cross our wills. HE is the same Today, as HE was Yesterday and so shall be Tomorrow.
---Gordon on 2/19/13


markv, you can't show me anything in God's Word where He picks and chooses who is saved and who is not. your predestination gospel is so out of context to what is real and what is unreal. God does give us free will. even the garden of eden eve had a choice to serve the Lord or satan. we were all predestined to be saved. God did not be born, die on a cross for a select few.wow, I can't believe you honestly believe that. God's power came over me and I obeyed the call and was saved. no one will ever tell me any different. I was there when it happened to me.
---shira4368 on 2/19/13


Gordon, you say I miss the point, what point? Something not in Scripture? Free will for salvation is never mentioned. Then say,
"Salvation is, and always has been, a free-will Offering for all of mankind."
Just show where God said we had free will to choose Christ? You won't find it because God said the lost are slaves to sin. If their wills were free they would not be in bondage.
Then say,
" It has always been up to the individual human being to accept or reject Salvation." it is always been up to the individual to accept or reject Christ. It is a choice, it does not mean he has a will that is free. He is a slave of sin. How can his will be free? His will is in bondage to sin, slaves are not free.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/13


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Gordon, you talk and no Scripture. The reason free will is not there, is because God doesn't contradict Himself. Lost, your a slave to sin. Born again, your a slave to Christ. He bought you. You did not pick Him, He picked you from the slave group. Now your a slave to God.
"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness" You didn't know righteousness.
"What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashame?" There was nothing good in you.
"For the end of those things is death. "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God," you have your fruit in holiness, and the end everlasting life" (Rom. 6:20-22).
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13


Peter, That's true. I understand that. But Mark totally misses it when it comes to this "free-will vs. personal choice" issue. Salvation is, and always has been, a free-will Offering for all of mankind. It has always been up to the individual human being to accept or reject Salvation. And, having that ability to personally choose between Salvation and Damnation does not diminish GOD's ultimate Position of Authority and Control. This is a simple fact which Mark is blind to. Mankind was created with free-will. We are made in GOD's Image, and one aspect of GOD's Image is HIS Free-Will. GOD did not deliberately create some people to be Damned for all Eternity and some to be Saved. That's a tyranical misrepresentation of GOD.
---Gordon on 2/18/13


Sorry, Josef. I addressed my last comment to "Peter", but, I meant it for you.
---Gordon on 2/18/13


Bro. Josef, you have explained it very well to Gordon. You did a great job in what you said. That is exactly what I am saying. If he and some others do not understand the verses of Scripture as you explained them, then there is nothing more to explain. I find it so simple. Nothing is hard to understand, unless they don't want to understand. And if they don't want to understand, no matter how much truth is given, they will reject it. Thank you brother so much for coming forward for the glory of God.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13


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Gordon, what is your point? I read that many times. Are you saying God is limited? That man somehow has power over God. That God cannot go where He wants to go or do what He wants to do? Are you saying the clay has power over the Potter, and he can demand to be made a certain way and the Potter has to do what the clay says? Please give Scripture and explanation.

Cluny, faith comes from God for He is the Author and finisher of your faith. The faith He gives believers. And once He gives it to you as a believer it is your faith from that point on. It belongs to you. So I do not see a difference. You didn't have it, it was given to you, now you have it, it is yours.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13


Gordon this is not an attempt to speak for Mark, or put words into his mouth, but this is what I believe he meant, and is what I stand in agreement with. Please correct me Mark if I am mistaken. I certainly do not wish to misrepresent you or your beliefs. Gordon, the believer was once a slave of sin, however, having been set free from sin, the believer has become a slave of righteousness. Therefore having been set free from sin, the believer has become a slave of God, in that he has been bought with a price, and is being kept by His power through faith. A slave has no free will in the sense of having the freedom of asserting his or her own desire, for their will is dictated and controlled by their master.Refs. Romans 6:16-22> 1Pe 1:5
---josef on 2/18/13


Mark V, JOHN 8:32 says "And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you FREE." And, What or WHO is the Truth that will make one FREE? JOHN 14:6 tells us "YAHUSHUA saith unto him 'I Am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." Truth = FREEDOM.
---Gordon on 2/17/13


==Cluny, did you read what you said, You first say,

"My" faith is in the Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

NOT in "my" own act of faith."

You seem to be saying the same word "My" faith on both examples, do not get what your message is.==

Let me rephrase it so that maybe even you can understand it.

I place faith in our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--not my own faith in him.

Big difference.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/18/13


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Cluny, did you read what you said, You first say,

"My" faith is in the Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

NOT in "my" own act of faith."


You seem to be saying the same word "My" faith on both examples, do not get what your message is. The question really is, do you have doubts? I don't.
But let me help you, the faith necessary to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ comes from God. No one has that faith unless God grants it to you so that you can believe and come to know the Truth who is Christ.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phi. 1:29).
---Mark_V. on 2/17/13


"Having a choice does not mean your will is free. Having a choice is having a choice. Unbelievers have a choice, but their wills are in bondage to sin, not free. Jesus sets you free from the bondage of sin, but you become a slave to Christ, you are still not free." Mark_V. A true and beautifully stated response to Gordon. The sarcasm of "Gordon, can you read?" was unnecessary. Otherwise, he who has an ear to hear, let them hear.
---josef on 2/17/13


\\Cluny, how do I know? Because by faith I have made my assurance sure as we are told to do so. That is how I know. I have no doubts, do you?
---Mark_V. on 2/15/13\\

My faith is in the Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

NOT in my own act of faith.

There's a big difference.

Do you grasp it?

Glory to jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/17/13


Sis. Shira, you said,
"God does give us freewill to be saved or live a life of sin and go to hell." There is no "free will" mentioned in the Bible concerning salvation.
Then you said,
" I chose to go to church where the Spirit of God pricked my heart and I was saved." What if God had not pricked your heart? You would continue to go to church and not be saved.
you said,
" God predestined us to be saved before the foundation of the world. God does not pick who is saved or not saved." If God predestined you before the foundation of the world, doesn't that mean He chose you to salvation before the foundation of the world?
---Mark_V. on 2/17/13


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Shira, I agree that we have free will to sin or to follow Christ, however it is Christ alone that saves.

Isa63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help, and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me, and my fury, it upheld me.

Dan4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

John6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
---trey on 2/17/13


God does give us freewill to be saved or live a life of sin and go to hell. I chose to go to church where the Spirit of God pricked my heart and I was saved. I did have a choice if I had not gone to church and heard a sermon on salvation and it was my choice to walk down the isle to the altar. God predestined us to be saved before the foundation of the world. God does not pick who is saved or not saved. He gives us all a chance. we choose whether we take the chance or quench the Spirit.
---shira4368 on 2/16/13


Gordon, can you read? you said,

"Mark V, You say that GOD does not force people to sin, but, that people sin simply because they want to. SO, people DO have "free-will" afterall, huh?"

Do you see "free will" anywhere in my statement? Having a choice does not mean your will is free. Having a choice is having a choice. Unbelievers have a choice, but their wills are in bondage to sin, not free. Jesus sets you free from the bondage of sin, but you become a slave to Christ, you are still not free.
Why don't you read the definition of "Free" and the definition of "will"
Why does it bother you so much that God does the choosing? Are you fighting for your rights against God?
---Mark_V. on 2/16/13


Man lives for God, by God. "For God is the King of all the earth" (Ps. 47:7) "He changeth the times and the seasons, He removeth kings, and setteth up kings," (Dan. 2:21) For "Jehovah bringeth the counsel of the nations to naught, He maketh the thoughts of the people to be of none effect" (Ps. 33:10) God's power is not limited by man's lack of faith, it is He who grants faith, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
God's power is not limited by man's understanding, it is God who gives understanding through the Spirit, and upholds all things by the Word of His power (Heb. 1:3).
---Mark_V. on 2/15/13


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Cluny, how do I know? Because by faith I have made my assurance sure as we are told to do so. That is how I know. I have no doubts, do you?
---Mark_V. on 2/15/13


Mark V, You say that GOD does not force people to sin, but, that people sin simply because they want to. SO, people DO have "free-will" afterall, huh? Yet, you also say that people cannot choose Salvation, but that GOD deliberately creates "saved people" and other people are created specifically just for being damned to Hell. I'm just hearing contradictions here.....Could you explain yourself better regarding this matter? Thanks!
---Gordon on 2/15/13


No and Yes. No, God's power is not limited by man. But other scripture suggests it is.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

God does not fit well in a box nor is he limited to the pages of the Bible.

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but not with God, all things are possible with God.

Luke 18:27
Jesus replied, What is impossible with man is possible with God.
---Born on 2/15/13


No, It is also freedom giving in that we are not responsible for others salvation nor can we conspire against God to limit his effectiveness. Jesus says in one of the gospels (paraphased) "if the disciples stop the very rocks will cry out the name of God". However, we will miss many of His blessings both physical, spiritual, and emotional. John 10:10.
---Scott1 on 2/15/13


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\\"The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes even the wicked for the day of doom"
---Mark_V. on 2/15/13\\

And how do you know that you yourself are not a wicked person made for the day of doomMark_V?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/15/13


"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

We in our own wills are not obedient by nature to God (Romans 6:17). So, all our sufficiency is from God.

And His word is also not limited >

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth,
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)
---willie_c: on 2/15/13


"Is GOD's Power limited by man's understanding? "No.
"My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isa 46:10
"Is GOD's Power limited by a man's lack of faith?" No.
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself." 2Ti 2:13
---josef on 2/15/13


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