ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Who is Jesus # 2

Who is Jesus # 2

Join Our Free Chat and Take The Who Is Jesus Bible Quiz
 ---Ruben on 2/15/13
     Helpful Blog Vote (7)

Post a New Blog



'The Israelites had to communicate with the High Priests'- Ruben.

The Israelites did not pray to the High Priest- a point of fact. Praying to anyone else other than God was detestable to God. God has never delegated the hearing of prayer to anybody.

'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, listen to him.'

God is not instructing prayers to be directed to Jesus. God is telling those present to listen to Jesus' teachings. Christians do so today through the pages of the gospels.

'Gave me the chapter and verse where Jesus told them the name of Jehova'- Ruben.

That wasn't your original question. But you have nevertheless answered it yourself, ie.they already knew it!
---David8318 on 2/21/13


The Israelites had their High Priests officiating at the Temple.
---David8318 on 2/21/13

David,

The Israelites had to communicate with the High Priests and so if Jesus is now the High Priest then you have to talk to Jesus.

Besides Jehova himself and scriptures tell us to:

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, listen to him." (MT 17:5)

"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me" (JHn 6:45)

You are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life, and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life. (JHN 5:39-40)
---Ruben on 2/21/13


'Thomas' use of the conjunction 'kai' which inseparably links 'Lord' and 'the God' to Jesus'- Marc.

Of course Thomas was addressing Jesus, but to say 'kai' is the linch-pin holding the theory that Thomas is calling Jesus 'the God' without reference to the context of John 20, is an emotional misguided plea on the part of Marc for the pagan trinity dogma.

As previously mentioned, 'the Lord of me and the God of me' under Greek convention has 2 def.articles, meaning 2 persons are in view.

Additionally, Thomas not only used the Greek convention signifying two persons, he also did not say, 'the Lord and the God of me'. He actually said, 'the Lord OF ME, and the God OF ME'. Further indication Thomas had two persons in view.
---David8318 on 2/21/13


'Did Jesus emphasize the name Jehovah in his everyday speech?'- Yes, of course he used God's name in everyday speech. Why wouldn't he?

'I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world'- John 17:6.
---David8318 on 2/20/13

David,

Gave me the chapter and verse where Jesus told them the name of Jehova.

Why would Jesus gave the Apostles the name of Jehova to them when they were already aware of the OT scriptures>

"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wroteJesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (JHn 1:45)
---Ruben on 2/21/13


'Our own Kingdom interliner does not have the name YHWH. -Why?'- Ruben.

Because the KIT is not the original writings.

'The Almighty God the Son'- Ruben.

Where in scripture does 'The Almighty God the Son' appear? Another RCC Catechlysmic expression Ruben has discovered perhaps!?

This belief Ruben has- 'The Almighty God the Son'- negates the meaning of Christ as our 'mediator'. The disciples viewed Jesus as the 'one mediator between God and men,' not as God himself. (1Tim.2:5) Since by definition a mediator is someone separate from those who need mediation, it would be a contradiction for Jesus to be one entity with either of the parties he is trying to reconcile. That would be a pretending to be something he is not.
---David8318 on 2/21/13




'Our own Kingdom interliner does not have the name YHWH. -Why?'- Ruben.

Again this is Ruben playing the hypocrite. Why does Ruben alter the Hebrew text and omit God's name in the OT Hebrew scriptures? It is an indisputable fact- God's name YHWH is found in the oldest existing Hebrew Manuscripts and Septuagint Manuscripts.

Yet Ruben and trinitarian translators deliberately abuse the Hebrew text, by altering and omitting God's name YHWH. Ruben has the audacity to complain when translators restore God's name. What sanctimonious hypocrisy!

Ruben is driven by the pagan trinity dogma and not by what is written in ancient manuscripts.
---David8318 on 2/21/13


"God is our Saviour, and Jesus is our Saviour" Warwick

I, of course, agree. Jesus Christ is the one and only "lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world", (John 1:29) sent by His Father. (3:16)

But it is a leap of pure, unadulterated eisegesis to suggest that since both the Father and the Son are simply referred to as "Savior" they are somehow two persons of a mysterious Trinity.

While the term "Savior" as it applies to Jesus is packed full of significance and profound meaning for us, sharing titles doesn't automatically link individuals together.

Moses, the Judges and Satan are referred to in scripture as god. That doesn't align or connect them with the Almighty.
---scott on 2/21/13


Colossians 3:24 is artfully irrelevant / KIT Warwick

Sniff, sniff, sniff...

...There's that familiar smell! Perhaps your favorite appetizer? Red Herring.

A correct English rendering of any (NT) verse is based on the Greek text. You knew that right?

You claimed that the NWT rendering of Col 3:24 is a "mistranslation".

I'm holding you to it in spite of your Red Herrings...

Prove it. Prove that the NWT, Knox, GWT, GNT, etc have not accurately represented the Greek.

You've made a direct accusation and I've responded with an equally direct challenge. Back your claim up. What does the Greek say? I've already given you more than a head start.

Take your time.
---scott on 2/21/13


"scott, 1 timothy 4:16 does not say a word about Jehovah..."shira4368

I never said that it did.

It does however, refer to an act of "saving".
---scott on 2/21/13


David8318 * John 14:6 reads, ' No one comes to the Father except through me.' I pray to 'the Father', through Jesus Christ. It is appropriate to conclude a prayer addressed to Jehovah... 'through Jesus Christ'.

Tell me please, how does one pray to Jehova through Jesus but yet have no communication with the one you are suppose go to?

David8318 * Jesus Christ is of oourse our High Priest, and mediator.

For those 144,000 only?

Jesus Christ is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. Worldwide Security Under the Prince of Peace, p. 10
---Ruben on 2/21/13




scott, 1 timothy 4:16 does not say a word about Jehovah. it speaks of doctrine.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


Ruben, up to your usual selective quoting again. John 14:6 reads, 'Jesus said to him: 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' I pray to 'the Father', through Jesus Christ. It is appropriate to conclude a prayer addressed to Jehovah... 'through Jesus Christ'.

Jesus Christ is of oourse our High Priest, and mediator. 'Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God'- Heb.4:14.

The Israelites had their High Priests officiating at the Temple. The Israelites did not pray to the High Priest. The High Priest represented the nation of Israel before God, acting as a mediator. Jesus now is my High Priest and mediator before Jehovah.
---David8318 on 2/21/13


Scott, whatever way you duck and weave God is our Saviour, and likewise Jesus is our Saviour, that is the Saviour of all the world. Do you claim that in like manner either Othniel or Ehud is our Saviour?

You are desperate.

Titus 2:13 "..our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Peter repeats this "..our God and Savior Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 1:1. Does Scripture say Othniel or Ehud are God and Saviour? Do we pray to them for salvation?

In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is shown "sustaining all things by His powerful word. Do we see Othniel or Ehud so addressed?

The answer to question 1 and 2 can only be NO! Your comments are but an attempt at subterfuge.
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Scott, you claim God created "through" Jesus, likening it to a prophet who speaks God's words for Him. There is a serious problem with that, as Genesis ch.1 records it was God Himself who spoke everything into existance. How can you claim creation was effected "through" Jesus when Genesis says God Himself spoke it into being, with no mention of it being through anyone?

Please don't waffle on about 'Elohim' as you have before as Mark 13:19 and Acts 17:24 say God (ho Theos) created the world. Interestingly and relevantly it is this exact title with which Thomas addressed the Lord Jesus (John 20:28) when he called Jesus "My Lord and my God."
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Scott the JW Kingdom interlinnear Colossians 3:24 "be you slaving to the Lord Christ."

By the time it gets from your own interlinear to the NWT is has become "slave for the Master Christ. You don't even follow your own interlinear!

Further 'serve' the Lord Christ is a better as slaves are to serve Him, as we who have become slaves to Christ likewise serve Him. Just as the major translations read.
---Warwick on 2/20/13


'The Lord of me and the God of me'-Jo.20:28.

Another possibility with the Greek- notice definite articles before both nouns- 'the Lord' and 'the God'. In Greek, this is how someone would refer to two persons. If Thomas wanted to refer to Jesus as his Lord and his God, he would say, 'the Lord and God of me'.

Essentially, one definite article- one person in view. Two definite articles- 2 persons in view.

This rule is seen in Jo.20:17, literally: 'THE father of me and father of you and God of me and God of you', has only one article for the whole possessive phrase.

Context and Greek grammar point to the conclusion Thomas had both 'the Lord' Jesus and 'the God' Jehovah in mind when convinced of Jesus' resurrection.
---David8318 on 2/21/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Auto Insurance


Jesus was God in the flesh. He was sinless. no verse in my king james calls another savior. 'God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. they are all one. God sent His only begotten Sun to save sinners and we are all sinners. my flesh is in a battles with unseen things like satan.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


"Savior" Warwick

Well-tread territory my friend.

When we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called "saviour" should we really believe they are both Jehovah because "besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour"? If so, we have a new "trinity": The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

"Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the LORDs [Jehovah's]." Obadiah 1:21, ESV. See James 5:20, 1 Tim 4:16, 1 Cor 9:22.

WIthout question Jesus Christ is our Savior. But let us not forget (John 3:16) that it was God who sent his only begotten son for our salvation.
---scott on 2/20/13


Colossians 3:24 is artfully irrelevant. Warwick

Really? What I've written is in direct response to your flip accusation that the NWT rendering of this verse is (in your words) a "mistranslation".

Prove it. Prove that the NWT, Knox, GWT, GNT, etc have not accurately represented the Greek.

Take your time.
---scott on 2/20/13


Acts 15:11 says the grace which saves is from Jesus. However Ephesians 2:8 says saving grace comes from God! Ephesians 1:7,8 says God lavished this saving grace upon us. Ephesians 4:7 says Jesus apportioned grace. Is saving grace from Jesus or God? Is there a contradiction here? There certainly is unless you believe Jesus and God are one and the same.

This is echoed in Titus 2:13 "..our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Peter repeats this "..our God and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:1.

However 1 Timothy 2:3 says "..God our Savior..' Titus 1:3 says likewise.

So who is our Saviour, God or Jesus? Again is there a contradiction here? Only for those who will not accept Jesus as God the Son!
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Holidays


Scott the point you attempt to evade, (helping David) is we must follow and serve Jesus. Covering this David becomes evasive knowing he considers Jesus 'god', while we are forbidden to follow or serve any god Deuteronomy 28:14. You both are cornered regarding this. However if you both do not follow and serve the Lord Jesus Christ you are not Christians.

What you have written about Colossians 3:24 is artfully irrelevant. See 1 Corinthians 7:22 "For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman, similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave." And as you say, a slave serves. We are called, when slaves to sin, to become slaves to follow and serve Jesus.
---Warwick on 2/20/13


'not one of those manuscripts has 'Jehova' or 'Yahweh' in either Greek or Hebrew letters!'- Ruben.

None of those manuscripts are the original writings, so nobody can say for any certainty Jesus or 1st century Bible writers did not use God's name YHWH.

Existing Greek manuscripts of the Hebrew scriptures #the Septuagint# dating to the 1st and 2nd century's however do contain God's name YHWH. Greek writers were aware of God's name and used it.

'Did Jesus emphasize the name Jehovah in his everyday speech?'- Yes, of course he used God's name in everyday speech. Why wouldn't he?

'I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world'- John 17:6.
---David8318 on 2/20/13


John 12:26, '...If anyone would minister to me, the Father will honor him.' Following and ministering to Jesus is always with relation to the Father- Jehovah.
---David8318 on 2/20/13

David,

Jesus said " I am the way truth and the life" JHN 14:6

How can you listen to Jesus voice if you dont speak with Him in prayer?

JHN 6:45 reads Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me .

If you learned have from Jehova you are told to "come to Jesus", have you?

Jesus said " My sheep listen to my voive , and I know them, and they follow me . And I give them everlasting life"(JHN 10:27-30)

Again how can you unless you go directly to him in prayer?
---Ruben on 2/20/13


David8318 * Ruben cannot provide evidence Jesus or John or any 1st century Bible writer did not use God's name YHWH in their original writings or language.

Our own Kingdom interliner does not have the name YHWH. -Why?

David8318 * Ruben cannot provide any evidence Jesus, or John or any 1st century Bible writer DID NOT use God's name.

We have today over 5,000 manuscripts and not one of those manuscripts has 'Jehova' or 'Yahweh' in either Greek or Hebrew letters!

David8318 * So why don't you use God's name!? God's name, which Jesus 'represented'

Did Jesus emphasize the name Jehovah in his everyday speech? Y or N
---Ruben on 2/20/13


Shop For Insurance


'Is this proof of Thomas' polytheism?'- Marc.

No, but it is proof of Marc's polytheism. Marc ignores the context of John 20, where Jesus says he is yet to ascend to 'my God' (20:17). In Marc's limited use of the Greek at 20:28 in complete ignorance of the context, Marc has two God's- the one Thomas made the exclamation, and the one Jesus will ascend to.

'After Jesus PHYSICAL resurrection'!? "Oddly" Marc believes 'God' is a physical man! Does God need air, water and food in heaven to sustain Himself? (Jo.4:24)

Marc doesn't know what he is talking about. Deut.6:13 is from the Hebrew scriptures, and was penned in Hebrew, not Greek. Jesus quoted Deut.6:13 at Matthew 4:10 where in the Hebrew God's name YHWH appears.
---David8318 on 2/20/13


Col 3:24 a NWT "Mistranslation?" Warwick

Poor Warwick.


The Gk for the later part of vs 24 reads:

"...gar douleuo kyrios Christos".


The definition of "douleuo" (Strong's) is:

"1) To ba a slave, serve do service"

And the first definition of Kurios is:

1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding, master, lord.



Let's see how Warwick explains just how the NWT's rendering is a "mistranslation".


"Be slaves with Christ for your Master." Knox Bible

"It is Christ, your real master, whom you are serving." God's Word Translation, GNT
---scott on 2/20/13


"The fullness of Deity that you so carefully dismissed." Mark Eaton

I don't believe that I have dismissed anything. I have simply highlighted the fact that the very same language applies to Christians as well.

Actually, it is the trinitarian, in this case, who is forced to dismiss or ignore this clear, scriptural fact in order to make something unique out of it in reference to Jesus Christ.

The same "fullness" can dwell in Christians but that does not make them the Almighty God...right?
---scott on 2/20/13


It is Warwick, Ruben and trinitarianism as a whole that teaches 'the Word was God' AND 'the Word was with God'. Both God's Ruben tells us are 'equal in nature as Almighty God'... "THEY" are 'different persons'. This apostate polytheist teaching is oposed to the monotheism of Deut.28:14.

I do not view Jesus as 'a god' in the sense implied by Deut.28:14. The pre-human Jesus is DESCRIBED at John 1:1 as 'a god' in relation to 'the God' (ho theos) he 'was with'. 'A god' in the sense of being 'godlike' or 'divine' (Godspeed/Wilson).

John 12:26, '...If anyone would minister to me, the Father will honor him.' Following and ministering to Jesus is always with relation to the Father- Jehovah.
---David8318 on 2/20/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Insurance


Where in the scriptures (and what is the underlying Gk) that states that Christ has, simultaneously, both a "Divine" and "Earthly nature"? This is casually referred to (like "God Man", etc.,) by trinitarians and I've yet to find any reference to it in scripture.
---scott on 2/19/13

I agree, there is none. Yet this does not deny Jesus of the fullness of Deity that you so carefully dismissed.

Philippians chapter 2 describes Jesus as existing in the form of God but emptying Himself of some God-like attributes when taking the form of man. This emptying is not clearly understood but it would logically follow that once out of the human body, Jesus would fill Himself back with the attributes He emptied.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/20/13


David, Deuteronomy 28:14 NWT God says don't "walk after (follow) other gods to serve them."

John 1:1 NWT "the word (Jesus)was a god."

JW Kingdom interlinnear Colossians 3:24 "be you slaving to the Lord Christ."

Mistranslated in the JW NWT as "slave for the Master Christ.

Despite attempts at obfuscation NWT still says you are to slave (Gk. douleuo) i.e. 'serve' Jesus as all major translations read.

Jesus says (John 12:26) we must follow and serve Him. If you follow and serve Jesus you are, by your own words following and serving "a god." forbidden by Deuteronomy 28:14! If you do not follow and serve Jesus you cannot be Christian.
---Warwick on 2/19/13


The NASB (for 1 example) was translated by 40 scholars all with earned doctorates in the field of Biblical languages, including Drs: Peter Ahn, Warren Allen, Gleason Archer, Richard W. Cramer, Edward R. Daglish, Charles Lee Feinberg, Edward F. Harrison, William L. Lane, Henry R. Moeller, W.L. Reed, Herbert M. Wolf, Kenneth Wuest, and Fred Young.

In comparison the JW New World Translation was produced by:

Nathan Knorr: President of the Watchtower Society
Fred Franz
Albert Schroeder
George Gangas

Not one of them has an academic degree in any Biblical language.

Is it any wonder the NWT is a poor translation?
---Warwick on 2/19/13


David you wrote "I follow Jesus-he leads me to the Father and provides a perfect model of obedience to Jehovah God- 1Pe.2:21."

However the NWT says you are to follow Jesus closely. The ESV renders it "For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps."

Both say you are to follow Jesus! But, as you consider Jesus no more than a god, you are in contravention of Deuteronomy 28:14 if you do follow Jesus, as God forbids we follow or serve any god!

A quandry of your own making.
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Dating


Scott, your preprepared answers are a testimony to the carefully deceptive work of Watchtower Inc.

Can you tell me what human is eternal, uncreated, "before all things", who forgave sins, died and rose again to reverse the curse, said He was the only way to the Father, said seeing Him was seeing the Father, the "image of the invisible God", in whom "all the fullness of God dwelt, the exact representation" of God, He who "sustains all things by His powerful word", whose throne will last forever, He in whom "all things hold together", who God says "laid the foundations of the earth? Want more?

Which human even approached this perfection?
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Scott, even if we were beguiled by your sleight of hand into accepting your errant theology * there still would be an insurmountable problem. Many of us have read the reports of those who have been JW and left because of the evil mind control practiced therein. Some of us have met the survivors who are spiritually and psychologically battered by their experiences within the cult. This is not like falling out with Baptist or Presbyterian theology and leaving, parting amicably. We know what happens to those who dare leave.

* As to JW theology what can we expect of an organization which produces its own mistranslation, done by four men without qualifications in Biblical studies or Biblical languages? Not much.
---Warwick on 2/20/13


Ruben cannot provide evidence Jesus or John or any 1st century Bible writer did not use God's name YHWH in their original writings or language. Yes, existing Greek MS (which are quite late) don't have God's name.

Rubens reply: 'You just did for me.'

Ruben is missing the point. Ruben cannot provide any evidence Jesus, or John or any 1st century Bible writer DID NOT use God's name. The existing Greek manuscripts are not the originals, so are no guide Jesus or the apostles DID NOT use God's name YHWH.

'And God name was apply to Jesus also!'- Ruben.

So why don't you use God's name!? God's name, which Jesus 'represented' (He.1:3, 1Pe.2:18) is a stumbling block for you!
---David8318 on 2/20/13


"For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9 Mark Eaton (1)

As you are perhaps aware, having "the fulness" of someone or something can similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. This is why the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734,

Likewise when we read at Eph. 1:22, 23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 2/19/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Treatments


"For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9 Mark Eaton (2)

Trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up" "(a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23...in 3:19, of their being filled ...`with' all the fulness of God, of their being 'made full' in Him, Col. 2:10." Expository Dictionary of NT Words, p. 426

New International Dictionary of NT Theology:

"This fullness which is described in Colossians is entirely related to Christ's cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, 1986, 1991
---scott on 2/19/13


"The Father created through Jesus" Marc

At Hebrews 1:1-2 we read:

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son...and through whom also he made the universe."

It certainly can be said, and it's true, that the prophets through whom God spoke played a significant and important role by vocalizing the words...

...but who's words were they? Who is the originator, the ultimate source of the prophetic message...the prophet...or God?
---scott on 2/19/13


David8318 * Yet Ruben believes 'the Lord' is also YHWH- the Almighty God.

The Almighty God the Son!

David8318 * In fact Ruben believes 'Jehova and Jesus... are equal in nature as Almighty God'.

JOHN 17:10-11 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we {are}.
---Ruben on 2/19/13


"Divine Nature - 2 Pet 1:4" Mark Eaton

Yes. Point well taken, based on my incoherent thought.

While many translations render "theios phsis" at 2 Pet 1:4 "divine nature" (others like Phillip's "Gods essential nature", etc... Rom 1:20 is another)...let me attempt to pose this more clearly:

Where in the scriptures (and what is the underlying Gk) that states that Christ has, simultaneously, both a "Divine" and "Earthly nature"?

This is casually referred to (like "God Man", etc.,) by trinitarians and I've yet to find any reference to it in scripture.

Not a crazy-quilt of inference. Just an inspired statement of fact.
---scott on 2/19/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Affiliate Program


David: "At Matt. 4:10, Jesus quoted Deut.6:13, 'It is Jehovah (YHWH)you shall worship.'"

Again, a JW falsification of the Greek to bolster their Arian heresy. The text rather says "Kurion ton theon sou" (i.e. "The Lord, your God").

"Oddly", these are the same words Thomas used toward Jesus after his PHYSICAL resurrection. John, who was there, unlike the 19th century Watchtower, said Thomas claimed Jesus to be his "Lord" and his "God " ("Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou"). Is this proof of Thomas' polytheism?

Further note John's using 'auto' (i.e. 'to [Jesus]') and Thomas' use of the conjunction 'kai' which inseparably links 'Lord' and 'the God' to Jesus.
---Marc on 2/19/13


David8318 * Ruben cannot provide evidence Jesus or John or any 1st century Bible writer did not use God's name YHWH in their original writings or language. Yes, existing Greek MS (which are quite late) don't have God's name.

You just did for me..


David8318 * But Hebrew MS & LXX do contain God's name. Ruben would rather alter the Hebrew text than keep true to what is written because he is driven by the pagan trinity dogma.

And God name was apply to Jesus also!

Yahweh is a stone of stumbling says the prophet Isaiah 8:14. Notice when Peter quotes the passage at 1 Peter 2:8 he tells us the stone of stumbling (Yahweh) is Jesus Christ.
---Ruben on 2/19/13


Simple question Mark_V: what inspired, biblical verse uses the term Divine (or Human) nature? What is the NT Greek language that these English terms have been translated from?
---scott on 2/18/13

You should read more...

2 Peter 1:4 "For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"

Col 2:9 "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/19/13


'you follow and serve Jesus'- Warwick.

I worship and serve Jehovah God.

I follow Jesus- he leads me to the Father and provides a perfect model of obedience to Jehovah God- 1Pe.2:21.

At Matt. 4:10, Jesus quoted Deut.6:13 saying, 'It is Jehovah (YHWH) your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'

'Render sacred service', Greek: 'latreuseis', Hebrew: 'avodh' (Ex.3:12, 'serve' KJV,ASV, 'worship' NIV).

Thus the Deut.28:14 conundrum is of your own fabrication.

As previously explained- 'the Word' at John 1:1 is DESCRIBED as 'a god'- 'godlike' or 'divine' (Godspeed/Wilson). John1:1 does not identify 'the Word' as another 'God' unless you read trinitarian translations.
---David8318 on 2/19/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Abortion Facts


Scott,

If the Father created THROUGH Jesus, then it still means Jesus created. Surely, if I, as his benefactor, created a beautiful fresco through Michaelangelo, Michaelangelo still painted the fresco. That means he still retains the title of the creator of the fresco.

Only by the most tendentious twisting of commonsense can you claim that Jesus is not the creator of the universe. Now since we must have 2 creators, according to the JW theology and understanding, this means JWs are polytheists, believers in more than 1 god.
---Marc on 2/19/13


Warwick, I only answer questions pertaining to my personal beliefs.
#1= The word "god" means "mighty one" (applies to both God and Jesus)
The commandment was "No other gods "before Me" ( or above Me or ahead of me etc,even satan is called a god!
#2 Everlasting Father= Jesus' sacrifice is the reason you get everlasting life, hence He becomes your evrlasting Father (as fathers are life givers to their sons) the 2nd life not the 1st one!
#3 If,as you say,"God
took a lower position" then at that moment He is no longer "almighty" , is He?
#4 If the Son is lower than the Father , how are they "equal" (you can't have it both ways)

---1st_cliff on 2/19/13


(Gk) "Dia"- Warwick (2)

Consider Hebrews 1:1-2:

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through (en) the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by (en) his Son...and through (dia) whom also he made the universe."

Jesus is the one "through" whom God the Father created the ages. The Father acted through Jesus Christ as the intermediary.

Even Trinitarian apologist Bowman said:

"Since [Hebrews 1:2 and 2:10] are in relatively close proximity and both contexts are about creation, it seems unlikely that "through whom" had a different meaning in 2:10 than it does in 1:2."
---scott on 2/18/13


David, you claim to be a Christian, therefore you follow and serve Jesus. However you claim Jesus is but a god so how do you reconcile this with Deuteronomy 28:14 which says you must not follow or serve any god?
---Warwick on 2/18/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Acne Treatment


(Gk) "Dia"- By or through?- Warwick (1)

Re the Greek preposition "dia", A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT and Other Early Christian Literature finds the most common meaning to be "through." (BDAG, 225)

Re Romans 11:36-

Winer explains that "dia", rarely indicates the causa principalis...in other words but rarely seems to be equivalent to upo, or para Rom[ans] xi. 36, owing to the prepositions, en and eis, admits no other interpretation." (Ibid)

"The preposition dia, is generally used to denote the working of God through some secondary agency, as..."through the prophet." (Matt. 1:22), Vincent, Word Studies in the NT, 2:37.

Continued
---scott on 2/18/13


I will agree with Warwick the trinity is unholy. All trinities are unholy. I worship only one God- Jehovah.

I've always maintained when 'the Word' at John 1:1 is spoken of as 'a god', it is descriptive. It does not identify 'the Word' as the God it 'was with'. This is what Warwick through his trinitarian naivety completely misunderstands. Others render John 1:1 'the Word was divine' or 'godlike'.

Warwick and Ruben are the real polytheist trinitarians because they both worship 'the Word' AND the God the 'Word was with'. Let's not forget these trinitarians view 'Jehova and Jesus...as different person... "THEY" are equal in nature as Almighty God'.

Pagan trinitarian polytheism.
---David8318 on 2/18/13


Cliff as Scripture shows in many places Jesus is God, not a god, or a God, but the second person of the Trinity. Scripture tells us that God is Creator and Colossians ch. 1 plainly tells us Jesus is Creator of everything created. He is therefore God, just as Thomas declares in John 20:28.

The JW's (and I believe you are still one) translate John 1:3 as "a god" however Deuteronomy 28:14 has God forbidding the following or serving of any 'god.' Therefore to be consistent JW's must not follow or serve Jesus, whom they call 'a god.'

You cannot Scripturally contradict any of the above.
---Warwick on 2/18/13


Obviously evangelicals are spiritually blind!

Evangelicals believe in the trinity
---Scott1 on 2/18/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Bad Credit Loans


'in view of the fact that exiting (Greek) manuscripts do not have it'- Ruben.

Which is what we all know. But even if existing Greek manuscripts did have God's name, Ruben would still not use God's name the same way he and his trinitarian translators alter the Hebrew text and omit God's name in the OT.

Ruben cannot provide evidence Jesus or John or any 1st century Bible writer did not use God's name YHWH in their original writings or language.

Yes, existing Greek MS (which are quite late) don't have God's name. But Hebrew MS & LXX do contain God's name. Ruben would rather alter the Hebrew text than keep true to what is written because he is driven by the pagan trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 2/18/13


Cliff, NWT calls Jesus "a god' (John 1:3), and "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). Is He a god or Mighty God?

Isaiah also calls Jesus "everlasting Father" how does that fit into your tale?

When Jesus says the Father is "greater" the Greek is 'meizon' which defines position. Jesus lowered Himself to servanthood (Philippians 2:7) meaning He, though God, willingly took a lower position. He does not say God is better (Greek kreitton). The US president holds the highest position in the US, but this does not mean he is better than others. But you know all of this as we have discussed it many times before. However you prefer to ignore it as it destroys your story. Evasion and deceit are JW hallmarks!
---Warwick on 2/18/13


'1 Corinthians 11:26: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives."- as quoted by Ruben.

Yet Ruben believes 'the Lord' is also YHWH- the Almighty God.

In fact Ruben believes 'Jehova and Jesus... are equal in nature as Almighty God'.

So Ruben doesn't believe 'the death of the Lord' because 'the Lord' is the eternal Almighty God.

Ruben preaches apostate antichrist nonsense.
---David8318 on 2/18/13


Maybe it's just 'wishful' (wink wink) thinking...

...But Mark_V uses terms like "Divine nature" and "Human nature" in reference to Christ as if the Bible somehow uses this terminology.

Simple question Mark_V: what inspired, biblical verse uses the term Divine (or Human) nature? What is the NT Greek language that these English terms have been translated from?

If you can't produce one verse, and it's underlying, original Greek than what you are suggesting is simply eisegetical, trinitarian rhetoric.

Carry on.
---scott on 2/18/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Bankruptcy


Careful readers will see Scott's creation "through" Jesus comments (as opposed to "by" Jesus), are obfuscation, as Romans 11:36 shows creation likewise occurred "through" God.

More to the point Colossians 1:16 plainly says creation occurred "by" Jesus, He in whom "all things hold together." And it is this same Jesus which Hebrews 1:3 says is "sustaining all things by the power of his word."

Thomas long before us understood Jesus was "My Lord, and my God." Literally The Lord of me and The God of me.

JW's cannot follow and serve Jesus (to them 'a god')as Christians do because they know Deuteronomy 28:14 forbids the following of any 'god.'
---Warwick on 2/18/13


Cliff, it just occurred to me that David ducks my questions and you attempt answers for him. Why? Do you feel he is not up to it?
---Warwick on 2/18/13


Not all who disbelieve the trinity are JWs ,anyone with a little common sense can see that throughout the gospels Jesus is "God's Son" , and God uses the expression
My Son","only begotten Son" all "possessive" words just as any one's son "belongs" to their father. Speaking always as two "seperate" entities .Obviously evangelicals are spiritually blind!
Jesus said "My Father is greater than I" Now that's "proof"!
---1st_cliff on 2/18/13


Warwick, **how can you call yourself a Christian and describe Jesus as "a god?"**
OK you say He's not a god then what is He? an Angel,Teraphim, Seraphim,human,or piece of stone?
You know what? you will come up with the same thing =" a God" right? (albeit a lesser God as Jesus said "My Father is greater than I)
Togethe ,father and son created all things as "one" corporate entity! Prove that false!
---1st_cliff on 2/18/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Cash Advance


Ruben is driven by dogma, and not by what is recorded in the Bible.
---David8318 on 2/17/13

Really:

The Bible says :

1 Corinthians 11:26: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives."

But yet the WTS says 144,000 are the only ones who can partake of the elements of Communion!
---Ruben on 2/18/13


David8318 * The reason is not because as Ruben believes nobody is recorded as 'using God's name'. No one can verify that claim. Ruben assumes they didn't. That's sufficient grounds in Ruben's mind to alter the Hebrew text and omit using God's name whenever YHWH appears in Hebrew MS.

Your own WTS admits it:

"Would a translator have any right to restore the name, in view of the fact that exiting manuscripts do not have it " The Divine Name that Will Endure Forever pages 26 and 27
---Ruben on 2/18/13


Bro. Warwick, very good answers you have given. Thanks for taking over here. So many want to discredit the Lord. Strip Him of His Divine nature when they quote from His human nature. What they forget is that a Mediator between God and men cannot be God only, or man only. This is taught in Gal. 3:20) A Mediator is not of one, but God is One. A Mediator supposes two parties between whom He interveness, but God is only One party. The Mediator between God and men must be related to both, and be equal of either. If only those people understood but they don't. A Mediator must be related to both. Therefore the Eternal Word must take man's nature into union with Himself if He would be a Mediator between God and men.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13


Bro. Warwick 2: if we look at (1 Sam. 2:25)
"For if one man sin against another, God will judge him, but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall intreat for him?"
So a man cannot intreat for another man when the sin is against God. But that is why we are told,
""Therefore when He (the mediator) cometh into the world, He saith, A body hast Thou prepared for Me" (Heb. 10:5). That is why there is no salvation outside of Christ Jesus, who is man and God. For He intervenes between the two parties and makes peace.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Counseling


David8318: I see confusion in you & your sect interpretation of the Son of God. You sort of ascribe "human son" meaning/status to describe "the Lord Our Righteousness" Jer.23:5-6.
---Adetunji on 2/18/13


David, there you go again talking about your unholy Trinity, Jehovah, and The Mighty God, (Isaiah 9:6) and a god (NWT). And you slander others calling them polytheists! You sure put the hype into hypocrite.

As I have asked before how can you call yourself a Christian and describe Jesus as 'a god.' Jehovah says says "Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them" Deuteronomy 28:14.

I notice so far that you have tried to evade this. We are all ears, to coin a phrase!
---Warwick on 2/17/13


'it must not be all that important for us to use it (Jehovah) today'- Ruben.

That's not the reason why Ruben and trinitarians per-se alter the Hebrew text and omit using God's name YHWH (Jehovah).

The reason is not because as Ruben believes nobody is recorded as 'using God's name'. No one can verify that claim. Ruben assumes they didn't. That's sufficient grounds in Ruben's mind to alter the Hebrew text and omit using God's name whenever YHWH appears in Hebrew MS.

The real reason why trinitarian translators deliberately omit using God's name YHWH is because of the pagan trinity dogma. God's name YHWH (however translated, Jehovah or Yahweh) gives Almighty God personality, differentiating God from His son- Jesus.
---David8318 on 2/17/13


Satan hates God's name which is why he influences his hordes to remove God's name YHWH.

This hatred of God's name is seen in Ruben's corrupt argumentation. Ruben argues it is wrong for the NWT (and others) to use God's name in the NT text because it is not found in existing 4th cent. Greek MS. But Ruben will alter the Hebrew OT text and omit using God's name YHWH despite the unequivocal fact God's name in Hebrew appears in Hebrew MS over 6000 times. So even if God's name appeared in 4th cent.Greek MS to which Ruben holds so dear, he would still omit using it the same way he does with the Hebrew text.

Ruben is driven by dogma, and not by what is recorded in the Bible.
---David8318 on 2/17/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Relief


If "through him" means Jesus was only the instrument God used to create, then Romans 11:36 means God Himself is likewise only the instrument someone unknown used as an instrument, not its Creator! What is your point Scott?


NIV For from him and through him and to him are all things.
ESV For from him and through him and to him are all things.
NASB For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Holman For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
KJV For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things:
ASV For of him, and through him, ...
Darby For of him, and through him, and for him are all things:
ERV For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things.
---Warwick on 2/17/13


Of Jesus Colossians 1:16 says:

NIV by him all things were created:
ESV For by him all things were created,
NASB by Him all things were created,
Holman everything was created by Him,
ISV by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
KJV by him were all things created,
Aramaic Bible By him was everything created
GOD'S WORD He created all things
Darby by him were created all things,
Webster's by him were all things created,

Scott your quotes definitely do not show what you claim they do, as Colossians is clear Jesus is Creator of everything ever created and the sustainer of all things. And Hebrews 1:3 shows Jesus sustains all things by His powerful word.
---Warwick on 2/17/13


"All things were made through (Dia) Him, and without Him nothing was made..." John 1:3, NKJV

"Through him all things were made..." NIV

"All things were made through him..." ESV

"All things came into being through Him..." NASB

"All things were made through him..." RSV

"All things were made through him..." ASV

"All things through him did happen..." YLT

"All things received being through him..." DBY

"All things were made through him...." HNV
---scott on 2/17/13


Who is He?

My Lord, God, and Savior.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/17/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Settlement


Warwick,Sometimes I think you have a little spiritual astigmatism.
1st It has never been proven positively that Hebrews was written by Paul and even if it was is everything he wrote "proof positive"?
Isn't that blind following of a man?
**He cannot be Creator of everything and and also be Creator** define "everything"
Ford designs and builds car as a single entity but is in fact "corporate!"
A multiple creating as a single!
---1st_cliff on 2/17/13


Colossians ch. 1 makes it clear all things whether on earth or in heaven, visible or invisible were made by and for Jesus. And in Him all things hold together. The cosmic glue! Hebrews 1:3 says Jesus sustains all things by His powerful word, proof positive He is uncreated God, as He cannot be Creator of everything, and also be created, as some claim. They say He is a god however Deuteronomy 28:14 says we are not to follow or serve any god. Those who call Him a god should be consistent and not follow or serve Jesus.

Those who call Him a god say He is also the Mighty God, but not the Almighty God. Therefore in their confused reasoning they have a god, a Mighty God and a separate Almighty God! What an unholy Trinity!
---Warwick on 2/17/13


Jesus is the One who shed His blood for us and for how He wants us to relate with each other and be with each other while we discuss these issues.

Yes, Jesus Himself says He is "the Beginning of the creation of God", in Revelation 3:14. But He is God's Son. A Son is not created. And "without Him nothing was made that was made," we have in John 1:2.

God Himself is the Beginning of whatever He does. All begins with Him. Creation began with Jesus. It is like how you are the beginning of what you do, including with the idea in your mind. That idea is the beginning, not the actual creation, and it is you, by being in your mind (c:

And Jesus in us is the beginning of God's new creation in us (c:
---willie_c: on 2/16/13


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.