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Do Heretics Know The Truth

Do heretics want to know the Truth or do they purposely reject the truth? Is it on purpose, or, do they just don't have the ability? Give Scriptures.

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 ---Mark_V. on 2/15/13
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Kathr, you are here to be a heretic. And that you are. You say,
"I've asked Markv many times, just show ONE verse using the term, Eternal Son."

Another heretical question to strip the Son of His Divine nature. You are now saying He is not God. For only God is eternal. I gave you the word of God and you rejected it. The Truth goes right by you. So anymore Scripture is useless.

For others, the Son has many names in Scripture, the word, the gate, the door, the light, the truth and so on, but He never stops been the Son. And He is God.
you claim you are a Jew, you must still be lost, like the rest of the nation of Israel.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/13


Re John 20:28, I believe you reinterpret Granville Sharp's rule. It says, "When a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai...they have the same referent."

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule says nothing about when there is more than one article. Thus, by arguing so, you've committed a formal logical fallacy, namely, Denying the Antecedent. That is, if P, then Q, we can only say P therefore Q (or not-Q, therefore not-P). You've tried to illogically deduce that not-P, therefore not-Q.

David, five years at university studying Philosophy and Religion (and a little Classic Greek!) does give you some knowledge.
---Marc on 2/22/13

I certainly believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. He is God. It doesn't get any better than that.

I've asked Markv many times, just show ONE verse using the term, Eternal Son.

He can't.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/13

\\Jack b, if you were arguing anything other then the Deity of the Son...//
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13

As far as I know, you're the only one arguing anything about His Deity.

And you're arguing against people who are in full agreement.

Why do argue against those who agree?
---James_L on 2/21/13

Strongaxe, seeing you are RCC and that doctrine RCC fabricated, and that Calvin never left the RCC really, I'm not surprised at all with your comment here. I'm also surprised YOU don't see any FACTS others here have also posted.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/13


You are one of the few people on these blogs whose views I have come to truly respect (even if we do disagree from time to time). I have no doubt as to your sincerity and motives. Sadly, there are many here with loud voices that I cannot say the same of - whose attitudes resemble "My mind is made up - don't confuse me with the facts!".
---StrongAxe on 2/21/13

"Millions of believers have died defending the truth." Mark_V

Yes, including Michael Servetus who John Calvin (whom you follow) was instrumental in the death of.

Michael Servetus rejected, among other things, the trinity doctrine, defending the unitarian God of the Bible. And Calvin made him pay with his life for doing so.
---scott on 2/21/13

Revelation 19:12-14

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

good stuff JamesL and JackB..

It is possible, because MarkV said he does not KNOW Jesus Personally, that he doesn't KNOW Him by His Name.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/13

Kathr and jackB,
good stuff. Lots of good points.

Mark V,
what you're not able to comprehend is the difference between essence and identity. The difference between WHAT and WHO.

Jesus' essence (WHAT) is WORD of God, the great I AM.

His identity (WHO) is Son of God, Christ, Savior, Jesus, Son of Man, and a whole host of others

When He comes back to reign on earth, His identity will be King of Kings. But that is not WHO He is yet.

It's like asking what you are. There is only one answer - human being

But WHO are you? blogger, son, father, husband, friend, enemy, and a probably many others
---James_L on 2/21/13

"If the Son was not the Son from eternity, then He is not God."---MarkV

That depends on how YOU view the Trinity.

If the Logos of God(word) is eternal and took on the form of a man, does that make him any less God? NO! He simply took on the form of a servant and was submissive to his FULL glory.

I wont debate every little detail with you MarkV. Just know the definition of heretic is not "someone who disagrees with MarkV's interpretation of scripture".
---JackB on 2/20/13

Strongaxe, I love everyone that I answer. I do not love what they say about the Son of God. And I will defend the Truth as so many others in history have. Millions of believers have died defending the truth. The Truth is Christ. No one dies here, they get their feelings hurt. God has a purpose for everyone on line and offline. Even the snakes. Everything in life moves by the will of God. All has purpose that was ordained by God before the foundation of the world. When people leave it is because it was meant to be that way. And if they had not taken the time to be here, they would have been driving a car and crashing and killing someone whom God did not want to die, but instead they are here. Everything is for a purpose.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/13

Jack b, if you were arguing anything other then the Deity of the Son, I would excuse your answer, but you are speaking heresy, when you say Jesus Christ was not the Son from eternity. If the Son was not the Son from eternity, then He is not God. The divine attributes ascribed to Christ the Son present a clear revelation that in Him "the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily" In His humanity. (Col. 2:8). Only in Their personal properties is it possible to distinquish the Members of the Trinity and in no case are these properties, such as the term Father, any reflestion on the Deity of the Son. The Son was sent by the Father. The Father did not become the Father after the incarnation. He has always been the Father from eternity.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

we see here the Word of God is eternal.

Not only does it squelch markv's theory of being born of the SPIRIT first...but he refuses to see or believe that we are BORN AGAIN by Christ in us THE WORD. The LAST man Adam is a LIFE GIVING SPIRIT.

If he can debunk who the WORD IS here in this verse, that HE is GOD, the Logos, second person of the Trinity, he really doen't know who the Word is in the first place.

Oh Father how I love your WORD,
and WHO the WORD would be,
I know the WORD is your own Son,
and I know He lives in me.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/13


Yes, we are engaged in spiritual warfare - with pricipalities and powers (i.e. demons, etc.) - NOT with fellow Christians. Unfortuantely, many people don't seem to understand the distinction.

Jesus said others would know we are his disciples by how we rip each other to shreds. Oh wait. He didn't say that He said we would be know by how we love one another - but judging by all the personal attacks on these blogs, one might get the wrong impression. In fact I recall on at least two separate occasions, seeing visitors saying they were leaving these blogs because of all the in-fighting. For shame!
---StrongAxe on 2/20/13

I have no problems with a Trinitarian view, MarkV.

I just think we must be careful when we begin assuming that the Word of God is less than God. All things were created by Him and for Him. He IS the LORD!
---JackB on 2/20/13

Nope! Im right there with ya James. Good posts

I think your earlier explanation and the analogy was perfect. It appears someone just wants to be argumentative.

Scripture is clear.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory AS OF the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14)

God does not share his glory with another (Isaiah 42:8)

God is our only Savior (Isaiah 43:11)

The question that always determines which spirit leads a man: Was Jesus Christ God in the flesh?
---JackB on 2/19/13

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Jack b 2: Second, He is not only declared the Son from eternity but begotten from eternity. Here let me help you, James and Kathr and tell you what God said,
"God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17) which implies first, that the Son was sent into the world, the Son was not here but existed before the incarnation, incarnation refers to when Jesus was humanily born.
Christ the Son Himself said,
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine won will, but the will of Him that sent Me" (John 6:38)
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13

Kathr, it is one thing to not know Christolgy by not taking the time to learn about the Lord and it is another to bring heresy and then fight for it and announce it to the world. That is what you do. Here you bring the heresy of Arian which taught that Christ was the first of created spirits but not eternal. The Son of God said,
"I AM the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:8) The doctrine of the Sons existence from all eternity past has been the orthodox theology of the Church. And when you bring heresy, you are going against the Church. But you do not care. you think you are making points, but all you are doing is adding to your list of sins, for you strip the Son of His prexistence.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13

There is no doctrine specifically spelled out in scripture where "eternal generation" is even remotely suggested. It was made up by some Council of the Coneheads and they took it upon themselves to make this doctrine a FACT that caused bloodshed for centuries.

I don't recall Israel, or even the Apostles in anything written, going to war over any Doctrine of the Trinity, and if you don't agree with the "eternal generation "theory, you are degrading Jesus and a heretic.

Just another excuse to avoid what is really important...CHRIST CRUCIFIED and risen, for the forgiveness of SIN.
---kathr4453 on 2/20/13

Kathr, everything you say is heretical, might as well join the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses they believe what you do. You also said,

"MarkV, when will you ever get that I believe Jesus was BEGOTTEN, not created. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN ON. Created sons are angels markv. You r ignorance is getting more and more profound."

It is you who will never get it.
Begotten means that Christ is the promised seed from (Gen. 3:15) and Begotten Son in the sense that no other is. This is illustrated in the use of the same word in regard to Isaac (Heb. 11:17) who was not literally the only begotten of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the promised seed.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/13

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JamesL, then there is another view that it was at His resurrection. It's one too I find interesting.

Markv's doctrine teaches what is called eternal generation...look it up. Strange doctrine, not founded on anything in scripture. That's just it, he goes on and on, yet cannot prove what he believes. Yes Psalms 2 is prophecy, just like Isaiah 53.

Mary is not the eternal mother of God either. Yes she is now eternal in Christ, yes, she was a mother, and yes, Jesus is God....but that in no way defines her as the eternal mother of God.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

Mark V
Psalm 2 is a prophetic psalm. I don't think Kathr and Jack B. would agree with me on fulfillment.

I could be wrong, but I think they both believe it was fulfilled at His incarnation.

I believe it was fulfilled at His baptism.

Either way, there is no verse that says the Son became flesh

considering all the work you've obviously put into trying to understand Jesus' name (considering you've settled on one of the 14 or so variances), I'm surprised that you haven't put any effort into understanding what a "son" was in Jewish thought. You don't have to go far, it starts in Genesis 15:1-4
---James_L on 2/19/13

----- There's bloodshed and even death along the way.

So why would one think it will be any different in a "spiritual warfare"? We are told to arm ourselves with the Word of God when we go into a "spiritual warfare" with the enemy as taught by Paul in Ephesians 6:11-20. Finally,

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
---christan on 2/19/13

See I told you. They ABUSE the word of God and scriptures using it to assault others. WRONG! Paul never murdered anyone after he was saved.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

The problem with Christians thoughts here are that he's giving you WORLDLY wisdom, his own personal unregenerate wisdom. Total contrary to God's Word.

James 3:14-17

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

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insulted, insulting, insults

To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness. See Synonyms at offend.
To affront or demean: an absurd speech that insulted the intelligence of the audience.
To behave arrogantly.
To give offense, offend: a speech that was intended to insult.
An offensive "action" or remark.

In case you are asleep at the wheel here Warwick, it is the number "1" complaint people have here with MarkV. ...other than twisting God's words and people's words, which is also an INSULT!
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

When there is war, it never ever comes out looking pretty and nice. There's bloodshed and even death along the way.

So why would one think it will be any different in a "spiritual warfare"? We are told to arm ourselves with the Word of God when we go into a "spiritual warfare" with the enemy as taught by Paul in Ephesians 6:11-20. Finally,

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
---christan on 2/19/13

Besides Warwick, if you care to go back and read, no where was I ever talking to MarkV for him to come out like a slasher in his response to Leon. I wasn't even talking to Leon. And I gave no such scripture to be attacked with.

Now again, we are suppose to be an OPEN BOOK for the whole world to read and see Christ in us.

The only thing I see reading MarkV is some Sleezy Slasher Novel, or maybe the Gangs of New York. You know that was all over RELIGION don't you.

Everytime Markv has issues my name mysteriously gets added to his posts in horrible ways.

And this you approve of? That's not the Warwick i thought I knew here.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

Jack b, for you, James L. and Kathr you said,

"Jesus is not the eternal son of God. That He became the Son of God and Son of man."

So you say, at some point in time the Father became the Father. Just because the Son was revealed to mankind later in time that He was the Son, it doesn't mean He was not the Son from eternity. By decree Jehovah God speaks,
"I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee" ( Ps. 2:7). According to this passage, Christ the Son is declared to be the Son of God and begotten in the day of the eternal decree. This is a statement that Christ is eternially the Son of God as the decree itself is eternal. There is much more:
---Mark_V. on 2/19/13

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YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is the Eternal Son of GOD. He was always the Son. How? He is not the Son of any human, flesh-and-blood man. He is only GOD's Son. Joseph was His "step-father" by whom He was born into the Lineage of king David. YAHUSHUA is called the "Son of Man" because He took on Flesh-and-Blood as a Man, and became as One of us, One among mankind. But, He was conceived in Miryam's womb by a "Divine Sperm", as it were. He is perfectly Holy and Pure in every way. He never sinned, nor could He have ever sinned. If He could have sinned, He would've ceased to've been God. For, GOD cannot sin. He was tempted as we are. But, that was His struggle with the Flesh Body He took upon Himself.
---Gordon on 2/19/13

Warwick, anyone can have a point of view here without slashing and stabbing another for their point of view.

Please know the difference.

MarkV always makes it PERSONAL. When he makes it PERSONAL, it is a PERSONAL ASSAULT to "THAT PERSON".
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

\\ say that the Son of God is not eternal...\\
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13

You would do well to not put words into the mouths of others.

What Kathr has said is that the Son is eternal, but that He was not the Son in Eternity. There is a difference. And just because you don't understand the difference doesn't mean you have to slander and commit libel.

We could say about a wife - Mrs Jones is 68 years old, but she has only been Mrs Jones for 50 years. Prior to that, she was Miss Moore

SIMILARLY (not exactly) Jesus, the Son of God IS eternal, everlasting, Word of God, never created, always existing, the great I AM.

But He was not the Son in eternity.
---James_L on 2/19/13

Kath, your reaction is odd. You said MarkV insulted you. I asked where, as I could see no insult. You did not answer so I asked again, and now you provide what you consider an insult. How could I have an opinion as to whether an insult was given until you provided what you call an insult?

I often disagree with MarkV but in what he has written I really do not see any insult, but rather a point of view with which you disagree. I think insult is too strong.
---Warwick on 2/19/13

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Are we using the word of God to slash, hack, and stab one another with it? Well, THIS is what Markv does, and clearly did on that verse in 1st Peter. It was like that scene in Hitchcock 's "Phycho".
He didn't 'understand the verse, but instead used it like a knife , an assault weapon, and started slashing away.

Then if that wasn't enough, he attacks me again on the Deity of Christ, making up something so bazaar, it was painful to watch.

Markv's behavior here is truly denying any doctrine of ELECTION, that is, a life lived out before man in GODLINESS.

Is this his understanding of a Godly person? NO!

LeeJ too, they fight with their FLESH.
This is the Calvin way, when others disagree with them.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

Psychopathy is a personality disorder that has been variously characterized by shallow emotions (including reduced fear, a lack of empathy, and stress tolerance), coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/13

lee7337, The reason Arius' bowels "fell out" is that he was poisoned to silence him and you think that's a good thing!
You're just like all the other "kill the whistle blower" keep the lie growing! type that surrounds those who know the truth!
---1st_cliff on 2/19/13

Its so simple to understand who Jesus Christ is/was once you see the name of God in Hebrew.

Yod Hey Vav Hey (YHVH or YHWH) is how God identified himself to us.

Behold the hook/nail, behold the hand.

He was telling us thousands of years ahead of time that HE is the atoning sacrifice.

He even instructed Abraham to go to specific mountain 3 days journey from where he lived to sacrifice his son.

And what was Abraham's response to his son? "For God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering"

Those things are not mere coincidence!
---JackB on 2/18/13

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Jesus is not the eternal son of God. He is the eternal Word of God. He was made flesh and thus became the Son of God and Son of man.

She isn't speaking heresy at all. That is no way takes away from the deity of Christ. It expounds upon his deity.

Your life force, your voice, and your heart are all a part of you. Three parts and yet all three equal. Now take your voice and make it tangible. Is this not what God did?
---JackB on 2/18/13

...the passage you gave condemns you and Kathr, for both of you believe in your own free will to choose Christ, when it was He who bought you, when you were slaves to sin. So you deny that,
" denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2: 1-3). Your own words condemn you.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/13

Now Warwick, no one asked for your opinion as to whether you see this as an insult or not. I DO, and THAT is all that matters.
and markv's interpretation of that verse is TWISTED.
FAITH is not WORKING for your salvation saving oneself. The works of the LAW is what scripture calls working for salvation. NEVER FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone,

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes it's insulting to be told what GOD SAID and what I BELIEVE is a lie.

Even we have believed THAT WE MAY BE JUSTIFIED by the faith of Christ. WE are JUDTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, and saved by His Life.

Jesus blood PAID FOR MY SIN. Who did He pay ?
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

And not only for our sin, but for the sin of the whole world.

But we see not all will receive His free Gift of shedding His blood for the remission of sin ..forgiveness of sin.

Now His blood too purged my conscience from dead works to serve the Living God.

What really scares Mark is that verse in Peter. Ted Haggard, turned like a pig rolling in the mud, after claiming he was washed in the blood. In his act of disobedience, He, before this whole world was DENYING Jesus Christ . Does that mean he lost his salvation? Not if he were truly saved to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

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frances//There are many people who are teaching what they believe to be true and are sinsere in their intentions although some of thier teaching is incomplete

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Yes, it is easy to see that many who have little or no training, have led many astray with their errant teachings.

Very few of the early Adventists had much training or education, most being simply dirt farmers. Look at the destructive heresies they brought into the Lord's church.
---e.lee7537 on 2/18/13

I think the greatest heretic who KNOWS the truth and purposely rejects it is Satan.

On this is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

People are ignorant. More of us will ask with Pontious Pilate, "What is truth?" John 18:38 Blinded to the truth.

Fact is, in christianity there are endless differences in teachings. No one is on the same page. Some deliberately teach error and want things that they don't like in the Bible translated out. Is that Biblical scholarliness or agenda?
---bike on 2/18/13

Kath, you say MarkV has insulted you and Leon here. I cannot see where he has done that. Can you please quote me his insults?

If you can't am I not at liberty to say you have made a false accusation?
---Warwick on 2/18/13

MarkV, when will you ever get that I believe Jesus was BEGOTTEN, not created. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN ON. Created sons are angels markv. You r ignorance is getting more and more profound.

It would appear from reading your comment here that you believe BEGOTTEN means created. Let me ask you MarkV, who did God overshaddow to create angels?

Stop with your baffeling ignorance of God made flesh.

So you think because teh Word was MADE FLESH as teh scriptures state, that that means created? Then you will need to take that up with God. He said it I did not.

Of coarse God is eternal.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

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1st_cliff - And if you want to know the rest of the story about olde Arius, read on.

One day Arius had to go. In those days the public toilets were in the middle of the town.

When Arius bend down to do his thing, his bowels fell out and he bled to death.

A good ending for that heretic.
---e.lee7537 on 2/18/13

There are many people who are teaching what they believe to be true and are sinsere in their intentions although some of thier teaching is incomplete

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
---francis on 2/18/13

Satan used another method to get the Bible out of the hands of the common people. In some ways, this method was even more effective than burning Bibles. The Roman Catholic Church taught that the common man could not understand the Bible, and that the only ones who could understand and interpret the Bible were the priests, bishops and the Pope. To the average man, the Bible was a CLOSED BOOK and he had no access to it. As a result, most of the people were totally IGNORANT of what the Bible really taught. In 1229 A.D. the Church Council of Toulouse actually forbade the use of the Bible to laymen. Thus for centuries the Roman Catholic church did not want to put the Bible into the hands of the common people.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

Arius knew the "truth" but was branded a heretic and shot down by Constantine and his gang of Roman pseudo-Christians
---1st_cliff on 2/18/13

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The apostle Peter and prophet Isaiah says it best:

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, BEING DISOBEDIENT: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED."
1 Peter 2:7,8

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT." Isaiah 46:11
---christan on 2/18/13

Kathr, I do not want to label everyone a heretic. In fact almost everyone beliefs in the essentials of the Christian faith. They might be wrong is some small matters but not on the essentials. But when you say that the Son of God is not eternal, you are bringing heresy. You claimed that Jesus was created a Son. You and the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons believe in the same beliefs, and they are heretics. They speak outside our faith as Christians. They are not Christians from the Christian faith. They have a created Savior. Who can save no one really, for the Savior cannot be man only, for no man can bring salvation. Only Jesus Christ who is man and God can.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/13

First: In the writings of Ignatius, a leader of the church in the early second century, the heresy about which they were concerned was Gnosticism, a teaching which denied that Jesus was fully human. Note: This is why John wrote his gospel. The gnostic assertion was that the true God would not enter our world. John stressed in John that Jesus was God's incarnate Son...In 2 Pet. 2:1 comes closest to our meaning of the term, Heresy. It clearly refers to false prophets. In Gal. 5:20, it is one of the works of the flesh, includes strife, seditions, and envying. NT also were just as concern with improper attitudes within the church as the false prophets.
---pat on 2/18/13

uneducated housewife. Now this reminds me of the RCC and why they kept the Bible out of the hands of the common people and believed people needed to rely completely on the Pope and Fathers to interpret scripture for the uneducated man and uneducated housewife. And to think, these letters were actually written to UNEDUCATED GENTILES as well as Jews who were not Pharisees or in some higher educational system. Now I would like to know, what or WHO redefined Pauls letters written to his churches he established, or were they just read and understood by the listener? Well, I mean by the Born Again Listener. Faith does not come by INTELLECT, but by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD

God REBUKES Gnosticism.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/13

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kathr4453 // you saying you are superior to Peter and all the other uneducated apostles ?

Certainly there is simply no way we can ever consider ourselves to be superior to any of the Apostles who had the worlds foremost teacher - Jesus Christ.

However, do you consider yourself more knowledgeable of the Scripture than those the Lord has called into the ministry of teaching, those whom the church has considered to be its best and most contributory theologians?

Or do you like your Adventist friends believe you have been given a special anointing?
---e.lee7537 on 2/17/13

Kath, you say MarkV has insulted you and Leon here. I cannot see where he has done that. Can you please quote me his insults?
---Warwick on 2/18/13

And can you say that you really have all the truth "cornered", being an uneducated and simple housewife?
---e.lee7537 on 2/17/13

Are you saying you are superior to Peter and all the other uneducated apostles ?

Leon, these guys are also steeped in pride and arrogance.
You actually believe growing up in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ comes by a college education, for men only? And not by FAITH in His Promises?

What heresy is this you promote?

Well, seems God has chosen the base to confound the wise ask!
Therefore I will forever glory in my base and humble heart, rejoicing that I am all that I am by the GRACE of God.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/13

First Markv insults me and Leon here, and then me again and Francis on another. Is Markv JEALOUS of my conversations with others here. It appears so.

Lee, go change your depends, it's that time of day.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/13

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"Markv is on a wishhunt"- Mark_V

Yes. Where are those elusive wishes when you really need one?
---scott on 2/17/13

Oh gee wiz, Markv cannot see any truth ...and only knows one single thing...his obsession of free will vs no free will.

He even tried to change another conversation on another blog to the free will no free will doctrine, when the conversation was not about that at all.

So it appears Markv wants to LABEL anyone a heretic for not turning every conversation to free will vs no free will.

Witch hunt is correct. He's obsessed with his ongoing immature witch hunts....

Yawn, yawn, yawn. No wonder Markv is not mature in Christ . He grows like ground cover, not UP FULLY UP INTO CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/13

kathr4453//Calvin taught heresy, (election), and by-passed the doctrine of the Cross altogether.
Correction: What Calvin taught was his interpretation of the Bible.

Interestingly enough, there is very very very little in Calvin's theology that differs significantly from other theologians. Ever read his Institutes? I doubt it.

And can you say that you really have all the truth "cornered", being an uneducated and simple housewife?
---e.lee7537 on 2/17/13

"...You first throw insults at me...Markv is on a wishhunt, then give Scripture to condemn me [?], but the passage you gave condemns you and Kathr[?] [blah blah, blah...] Your own words condemn you."
---Mark_V. on 2/17/13

Always true to form, Mark the Inquisitioner (witch hunter) has the "natural" ability of always missing the mark with his malicious finger pointing, damning ACCUSATIONS. Unfortunately, the world is full of dangerous little, self-deluded, religious people like him. You must be in lock step with them or else you're their enemy. Having a form or godliness, they deny the power thereof... (2 Tim. 3)
---Leon on 2/17/13

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Leon, you have the ability to answer without throwing insults. You first throw insults at me, that Markv is on a wishhunt, then give Scripture to condemn me, but the passage you gave condemns you and Kathr, for both of you believe in your own free will to choose Christ, when it was He who bought you, when you were slaves to sin. You did not buy Him. He bought you and paid the debt you owed God. He was never obligated to buy you, He could have easily left you a slave and bought someone else, but you and Kathr believe you have a right, not God, your will is higher then His will. So you deny that,
" denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2: 1-3). Your own words condemn you.
---Mark_V. on 2/17/13

Acts 28:26
Go to this people and say, You will be ever hearing but never understanding, you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:You will be ever hearing but never understanding,you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:11-12
The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding,
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
---bike on 2/17/13


All of us necessarily must interpret what the Bible says - we all say "I believe that when the Bible says ABC, it also means DEF". The key difference is between those who add "but I could be wrong - you are free to interpret it differently" (which is honest, and the best any of us can really do), and those who add "and if you believe differently, you're a heretic" (which is presumptuous).
---StrongAxe on 2/16/13

Born: You certainly have a point in that we all part from what is right.

Your point at to people being deemed heretics also has the basis in that the church is split..... after all, it has reached the point of a pope being excommunicated (Pope Leo IX, in 1054, by the patriarch of Istanbul Celarius, who was also excommunicated!).
---Peter on 2/16/13

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Is this the Inquisition? The Holy Church of Rome (Catholicism) determined John Hus to be a heretic and he was burned at the stake. Luther was determined to be a heretic. Are we not all heretics? Do we not all part from the scriptures? And of us who preach that the Bible is without error, plain, clear and forthright, do we agree doctrinally? We are not the standard of truth. Therefore we should ask "What is written" and answer "It is written" and rebuttal "It is also written" and concede "Nothing beyond what is written." But in fact, we are all replace testament christians. We all part from scripture. Most sermons do as well. What church does not replace points of scripture with human authored doctrine?
---Born on 2/16/13

JamesL,you do not believe in original sin, and believe people are born righteous, you too deny the gospel of salvation, and what God set down that Righteousness comes by faith in , then, the coming redeemer Genesis 3:15 Jesus Christ, and today, our redeemer, Jesus Christ who fulfilled that promise where righteousness is not our own, but the righteousness of Christ imputed to those who believe. Abel became an HEIR of the righteousness, which is BY FAITH. Hebrews 11.

I said man was not born Righteous. I never said man was spiritually dead. YOU USED THOSE WORDS.

And we know Ephesians 2 is not talking about Physical death.You cannot separate SIN AND DEATH.

No one is born physically dead...that would be called a still birth.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/13

Mark is obviously on a witch hunt, yet the Bible says, "...false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies [1. Beliefs or opinions contrary to orthodox Christian doctrine. 2. Opinions profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted], even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, & because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, & their destruction is not asleep..." 2 Pt. 2:1-3, ESV
---Leon on 2/16/13

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,

Not everyone wants to be a christian. Many just want the name so they can fit in. They have their own doctrine, and rather than the commandments of God, they have the traditions of men: those are heretics
---francis on 2/16/13

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\\Calvin taught heresy,\\
---kathr4453 on 2/16/13

Yet you embrace the building blocks of his doctrine

You believe people are born spiritually dead - scripture tells us that Jesus Christ was made like us in all things. So you obviously embrace a Christ who was born a sinner

You also embrace Calvin's Perseverance of the Saints, with its conclusion that people cannot be assured of heaven by faith alone. If their works are not evident, then they never were qualified - ultimately placing the burden back on humanity to work out their salvation before they can be assured of it

just my two cents. I'll leave you alone now
---James_L on 2/16/13

MarkV "If, after 'they' [those who receive the knowledgeof the Truth] have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them." However an heretic is defined as "a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her 'church' (denomination) or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church." Therefore what "they" do is only relevant denominationally.
---Josef on 2/16/13

Lee, you left Calvin off your list. Do you think Calvin is above your list?

Funny, the term heretic is not found in scripture. Heresy however is. A person is not a heresy. And false doctrine is not a heretic.

Heretic is most assuredly RCC, as they used this term to murder anyone who disagreed with their doctrine and rule over man.

Anyone can call another a heretic.

Anyone who teacher any other Gospel than the one Paul clearly teaches, re: THE CROSS, is teaching Heresy.

Calvin taught heresy, (election), and by-passed the doctrine of the Cross altogether.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/13

Heretics usually do not want to know the truth as it is depicted in the Bible. What they really follow is the dictates of other heretics and self-appointed Bible Commentators.

Such heretics tend to ignore the vast body of Scripture on a given subject, and latch on to a twisted interpretation of a singular scripture (usually from Paul) that better suits their rebellious nature. They consider lawlessness a virtue and obedience to God's word a sin. They tend to cite ancient pagan influences as their justification for altering God's word.

One characteristic of such heretical groups is that they usually condemn those that derive their basic doctrines from the Bible alone.

---jerry6593 on 2/16/13

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Someone once said that heresy is a single truth in isolation.

This is talking about the great Christological heresies. Alas, many of the posters here cling to one or the other of them.

Don't forget that "Back to the Bible!" has been the battle cry of ever heresiarch since Arius.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/16/13

Each person is different.

One can know the correct belief but not have the character of love and peace and joy that God means.

And while I have been wrong, I have thought I was being smart.

I understand that a heretic is not only someone with a wrong belief, but the person is trying to get people for oneself, away from Christians.

"They zealously court you, but for no good, yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them." (Galatians 4:19)

Sounds like how a lot of people get married, to possess someone for themselves.
---willie_c: on 2/16/13

Heretics usually do not want to know the truth as it is depicted in the Bible. What they really follow is the dictates of their founders.

And in place of the Scripture, they usually have extrabiblical literature often created by their founder or subsequent leadership. Such is the case, with the JW's, Advnetists, and other grounds whose birth was in some sort of radical religious movement.

Usually when one debates these people they will not accept any interpretation of the Bible save those of their own following.

One characteristic of such heretical groups is that they usually condemn those that derive their basic doctrines from the Bible alone.
---e.lee7537 on 2/15/13

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