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Is Predestination Biblical

Is Predestination taught in the Bible? Some here disagree, others agree but do a lot of talking with no Scripture. Provide your point and passages.

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But we must do our part, God does not save anyone who is
not diligence to make his calling and election sure:
francis on 2/24/13

That' right, you tell them there Francis, but we must do our part!
Just like the thief on the cross, Im sure God would say he was diligence in his part too!
That' why I saved him.

Oh wait, he not saved and in paradise.
He in a grave somewhere, waiting for Christ to return to take him to paradise.
I'm confused what part are you playing again?

//God does not save anyone who is
not diligence//
All I see is (God does not save anyone)
---TheSeg on 2/25/13


No ones name was written in the LAMBS Book of life before the foundation of the world. That book began FROM the foundation of the world. Names are still being written, and will continue to be written each day until the end of this world.

All who's names are written will then enter the NEW Heaven and earth.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/13


Francis, did you ever stop to read the context of (2 Peter 3:9)? I do not think you wanted to. Do you know to whom Peter was writting to? To the beloved (v.1) and (v.8) that they might be mindful of the words spoken by the prophets to them the (us) (v.2)
"That the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, (His promise is for the elect, the us ) as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward "us" (the elect, believers) not willing that any should perish but that all (believers) should come to repentance" Those are the elect, those to whom the promise is for the "us". And they will all be saved. You cannot make your own meaning just because you find it offensive for God to make the choice.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/13


"This is contrary to a God that will make people and predestine them to perish." francis

This is predestined to eternal life: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48 - notice Paul declares one has to be "appointed to eternal life" (aka chosen/elected) before they can "believe". That is, believing is prove of one's election, not the other way round.

Predestined to eternal death: "...even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED." Written by the same man who gave you 2 Peter 3:9, which means your understanding of that verse you quoted is erroneous.
---christan on 2/25/13


\\francis, predestination is "misunderstood"? How so?\\
---christan on 2/24/13

you wouldn't believe it anyway, so why ask?
---James_L on 2/24/13




Christan, how do you know YOU know your name is in the book of life?

How do you know you were predestined to salvation?
---LindaH on 2/24/13


francis, predestination is "misunderstood"? How so?
---christan on 2/24/13

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not... willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is contrary to a God that will make people and predestine them to perish

What predestination is, is that God has predetermined that EVERYONE who repents ( no bias on God's part) will be saved

We are all called and elected to be saved

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

but we must do our part, God does not save anyone who is
not diligence to make his calling and election sure:
---francis on 2/24/13


francis, predestination is "misunderstood"? How so? There's nothing to misunderstand with regards to predestination and election (which according to the Scriptures goes hand in hand). It's explained in very simple terms by the apostle Paul.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Problem is, many think God has no right to do a He please with His creation. Hypocritically, they find it offensive.
---christan on 2/24/13


"The rest who are not called in this life will live again in the second resurrection Rev 20:5 and have an opportunity for salvation after the 1000 year reign" FOC

The man made from dust returns to dust and you are saying, he will return in the flesh once again to be given another opportunity for salvation? Is that what Revelation 20:5 implies?

And yet Revelation 20:15 says, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say anything about another opportunity for salvation, does it?

What a fantastic and disneyland-like doctrine you offer.
---christan on 2/24/13


I think that the doctrine of predestination, whereby God has destined some to die and some to life, is a misunderstanding, rather than an intent to deceive
---francis on 2/24/13




//The rest who are not called in this life will live again in the second resurrection Rev 20:5 and have an opportunity for salvation after the 1000 year reign:

?????Where do you find that belief in Scripture that there will be a second chance for salvation?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
---e.lee7537 on 2/24/13


false doctrine of predestination not taught in Holy Scripture, word used only 4 times: Romans 8:29,30 Eph 1:5,11

Many are called to Gods saving truth, yet few are chosen Rev 20:4 Matt 22:14 1 corin 1:26 1 Peter 4:17

The rest who are not called in this life will live again in the second resurrection Rev 20:5 and have an opportunity for salvation after the 1000 year reign:

1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
Romans 11:31

The elect are those called out of the world 1 Peter 2:9 Rev 18:4 Matt 16:18 (becoming Lords church) to obey the Lord and judged today on their actions (1 Peter 4:17) through His Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32) in this physical life, the rest are simply blinded 2 Corin 4:4 Romans 11:7
---Follower_of_Christ on 2/24/13


We all lived in the first world age.2Pe.3:5-6, the first earth age was destroyed when satan rebeled.Jer.4:18-28.there was a judgement, satan was sentenced to parish.Ezekiel 28:18, the rest of us were also judged and those that fought on the side of God were found to be rightous,Romans 8:30 these are the elects, since they have been justified God uses them for his purpose. The rest get one chance and have freewill and have to accept Christ. God bless
---Clarence on 2/24/13


"The word "predestinate" means to limit in advance or predetermine and is always associated with the God's chosen people (the ones he foreknew) and not events." trey

If I may, I would seriously suggest you reconsider your stance on this matter. Predestination in Scriptures includes the person/people and the events or simply said, everything that's happening and that's going to happen.

Classic case would be our Lord Jesus Christ, not only did the prophet Isaiah prophesied His coming but also how He was going to die, even up to His resurrection.

To say that God only predestine the person/people and not the events means He's not in control of everything.
---christan on 2/23/13


Peter, "God KNEW"? Why not we say what the Scripture reveals to us? Didn't the prophet Isaiah declared,

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Paul even used the same tone in Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief...". It's all within God's will and purpose that Adam must fall because we are told by Peter, "But with the precious blood of Christ... Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" That is, to glorify His Son, the Father purposed the fall of Adam.
---christan on 2/23/13


kathr4453
Don't think I'm blind just because I believe something you don't.

I love it when people talk about how Strong God is, they say, almighty God!
Dan_4:35 and none can stay his hand!

Yet, I get the feeling some believe a man can reject, Almighty God!
That there a man out there that can withstand God.
When you know there is no such thing, no one!
Every man who has come before God, fall on his face.
Rom_14:11 it's written!

Again Sister Kathr, I am not asking you to believe anything!
These are things, I believe! Why?

One might say these are things I chose to believe.
But, then that would mean I choose to believe, so turn your back!
God help us.
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/23/13


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TheSeg, no, everyone is not saved or will be saved.

Those who face the second death WILL be thrown into the Lake of fire....for eternity....everlasting torment. That torment is as EVERLASTING, as salvation is EVERLASTING.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


I'm sorry shira4368
But, why don't you believe me, when I say everybody is saved.
Do I have to show you it? It would help, right!

You said:
Just the simple little verse john 3:16 tells it all.

But about the little verse a few verses down, that says.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Because as you said:
I believe everyone has a chance but some reject.

Where you see a person rejecting God, I only see a lost person.
Until the father who sent me, draw him!

Mat_7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/23/13


Sis. Shira, you said,
"markv, I know God determines when we are born and when we leave this world. all this is deep but inspite of what you say only God really knows the answers we seek. I do know one thing, we have a choice on many many things. maybe God knows but we don't."
The answers we seek concerning salvation are give to us through the Word of God. They have to be revealed to the heart. We do make choices, many of them, we even say words that will save us or condemn us. God knows how everything will turn out because He ordained it that way. The main view is important because this view makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other on the work of man, that one does not save.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/13


James L, you know Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. He also said a person has to be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God? His own kingdom for He is God. Then, the word says,
"But God, who is rich in mercey, because of His great love with which He loved us" Paul is explaining how believers come spiritually alive.
"even when we were dead in trespasses, "made us alive together with Christ by grace we have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.."
Once He made us alive we entered the kingdom of the Lord never to be separated again. We are all baptized into one spiritual body. All the work of God by grace.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/13


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Romans 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We already know Jesus is the FIRSTBORN, so in light of this verse RE predestination, also see 1st Peter 1:20, also meaning for knew, foreordained, to know beforehand,

Is this verse talking about Jesus who IS the firstborn from the dead.

So now we need to understand what FIRSTBORN means, before we go any further as to WHAT was predestined.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


So leej, which one are you, RCC or Eastern Orthodox?

and which one means to be generated from, or birthed from...is the Holy Spirit begotten from the Father And Son, like Markv believes the Son was begotten, or generated from the Father BEFORE His incarnation?

If all are co_equal in nature and substance, then the Holy Spirit would have to be generated or begotten in the same way. Otherwise you are saying they are three separate Gods having three entirely different substances, or that the Holy Spirit is only an appendage of Father, and Son.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


Trey: Your distinction between proorizo - set to occur and prognosko - know what will occur - has some point there.

There is a second point, of course - since God is not limited by time as we are (at least most Christian writers assume He is not, and I agree there) God not only KNEW Adam would sin, but at the moment of creation could see all of creation right up to though everything

So the very term PRE with anything referring to God, I suspect, may be limiting God.

We remember yesterday, but we cannot go back to yesterday - certainly God can go to any time, present, past or future
---Peter on 2/22/13


//First I'll give you the definition of the Trinity, and then we'll work from there.

Thank you kathr4453, hopefully you fully believe the definition that you posted.

To answer your question concerning the Holy Spirit - one of the creeds (Nicaea?) tells us that the Holy Spirit emanates both from the Father and the Son - a point of controversy between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Church.
---e.lee7537 on 2/22/13


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The word predestination comes from the Greek word "Proorizo". Thi verb is to be distinguished from "proginosko"(to foreknow).

God has/had a special knowlege of his people before the foundation of the world. He loved his people with a love far greater than we can grasp.

The word "predestinate" means to limit in advance or predetermine and is always associated with the God's chosen people (the ones he foreknew) and not events.

In other words, the Lord predestinated his elect to be conformed to the image of Christ. He does not predestinate events. He did not predestinate Adam's fall in the garden or my sin today.
---trey on 2/22/13


---e.lee7537 on 2/22/13

I like your questions.

Although God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, he does not create situation whereby anyone will be lost.

God is in the soul saving business, not the soul damning game

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Acts 17:30 but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God simple determined from the start that those who repent and accept him are predestined to be saved

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
---francis on 2/22/13


e.lee, the gift of life in Jesus Christ is not for the sinner to "accept" or "reject" BUT to believe. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

Where's the "accepting" in the conversion of Paul by Christ in Acts 9? Did Paul "have to accept Christ" while he was on his way to persecuting Christians in Damascus?

That's why the "free-will" doctrine is so unbiblical and that's because Christ declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
---christan on 2/22/13


seg, just the simple little verse john 3:16 tells it all. we all have the sense God gave us to believe He died for all.
---shira4368 on 2/22/13


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seg, I don't believe everyone is going to heaven. only those born of the Spirit will be in heaven. I have never hinted everyone goes to heaven. I believe everyone has a chance but some reject. I just believe john 3:16.
---shira4368 on 2/22/13


First I'll give you the definition of the Trinity, and then we'll work from there. The Bible teaches that within the nature of the one true God exists three separate and distinct persons: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. They are co-equal in nature and co-eternal. The Trinity is NOT three gods in one. The Jehovah's Witnesses would say that the Trinity is defined as three gods in one. Christians definitely do not believe that the Trinity doctrine is three gods in one. All through the Old Testament and many times in the New, we clearly see there is but one true God.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


sorry lee, don't sleep with the JW's. It's the Mormons you all are in bed with. They too believe they pre-existed and are the chosen ones.

My comment was to show markV just how bazaar his teachings are.

Again if Jesus was generated in the bosom of God before His incarnation as markv teaches, where then is the Holy Spirit also generated in the bosom of the Father.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


//The Lord our God is ONE GOD!
---
There is one God but there are 3 entities in the God-head.

leeJ/

LeeJ, so where do you get JWs out of it?

Are you thumbing your nose again at the Word of God. I quoted scripture PERIOD....

You created your own twisted interpretation of something I never said and added your own twisted nonsense to it, ASSUMING I meant something else.

Is the Holy Spirit of a different essence, Nature than God? Are all three entities of a different NATURE LeeJ? Why is one generated and the other we have no record of being generated before any incarnation took place?

YOU can't intelligently answer that, but like MarkV, make up lies and throw stones at your own straw man!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


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//The Lord our God is ONE GOD!
---
There is one God but there are 3 entities in the God-head.

looks like kathr4453 has been in bed with the Jehovah's Witnesses. The good part is that once she joins the Kingdom Hall, she will be forbidden to do any forum on the Internet.

She will then be part of a group that bangs on doors, passes out literature, and gets points toward inheriting eternal life on a re-constituted earth.

Poor soul, what can we say to her now?
---e.lee7537 on 2/22/13


Marv's interpretation of predestination is that he believes he was in the bosom of Jesus, like he believes Jesus was in the bosom of the Father before the world began. THIS DAY have I begotten thee. Markv was actually there on "THIS DAY" when Jesus was eternally generated AKA Birthed by God and can tell us all about it. He actually believes he too preexiste with God in the beginning, and was chosen from the beginning and preexisted In Christ.

Now we need to find out when and how and where scripture states the Holy Spirit was also regenerated, begotten or birth in eternity past in the Father as well.Or is teh Holy Spirit of a different nature?

The Lord our God is ONE GOD!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


//predestination is not God picking a number of people who will go be saved despite what they do, and a few people who will be lost despite what they do.

Could those whom God calls to salvation benefit only those who will accept the gift of Salvation?

In other words, those predestined to be saved may of their own free will reject the salvation ofter to them.

In which case, those who have accpeted the gift of salvation are born spiritually of God and will be saved eternally. Others will be lost eternally.
---e.lee7537 on 2/22/13


"predestination is God determining in advance that anyone who exhibits a certain behaviour will be destined for salvation" francis

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

This speaks of an assurance from God's predestination of a saint. Meaning, God does not wait for anyone to "exhibit a certain behaviour" which amounts to saying God save a sinner is because he has done something good. THAT'S NOT GRACE! THAT'S WORKS!
---christan on 2/22/13


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shira4368
Do you see a difference between your beliefs and what the bible actually says?

Your predestination is not biblical. (This is in the bible)
God did predestine all humanity to be saved. (Where does it say this?)
We have a choice to accept or deny. (Where does it say this?)

Now understand me, I believe like you, Christ saved everyone!
I also believe everyone is going to heaven.

But, if I going to preach the gospel well then I need a gospel.
But, if I'm going to preach the things I believe, there is no gospel.

Most will ask where is that or is that written in the bible.
You can't preach the gospel by dismissing the things therein.
Unless you can explain it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/22/13


James_L

Yea, you went over my head.
I dont find faith to be not active.
Christ was a pacemaker, they kill him.
I find true faith to be one of the most active things.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Heb_11:4-5, Heb_11:7-9, Heb_11:17, Heb_11:20-24, Heb_11:27, Heb_11:29-31

What shall I more say? Hab_32-39
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Received not the promise!

Heb_11:40 that they without us should not be made perfect.
By faith
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/22/13


markv, I know God determines when we are born and when we leave this world. all this is deep but inspite of what you say only God really knows the answers we seek. I do know one thing, we have a choice on many many things. maybe God knows but we don't. I know a teen kept telling his father he wanted to die. they put him In treatment over and over again. the teen did take his own life. he had a choice to do that. I have a choice to drive my car into a wall. do you think God wants me to do that but in spite of it all, I have the choice to do whatever I want to do. God did send His Son to die for the whole world. your predestination is not biblical. God did predestine all humanity to be saved. we have a choice to accept or deny.
---shira4368 on 2/22/13


predestination is not God picking a number of people who will go be saved despite what they do, and a few people who will be lost despite what they do.

predestination is God determining in advance that anyone who exhibits a certain behaviour will be destined for salvation

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.
---francis on 2/22/13


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YES. Predestination is taught in the Bible. As e.lee sites Acts 4:28, Roman 8:29,30, 1 Corinthians 2:7, and Ephesians 1:4,5,11.

Also, Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

Similar, Judas.

Acts 17:26
he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.

Only we do not know what God knows. So it is for our discovery.
---Bike on 2/22/13


"Maybe it'll help us believe you if you can supply us the Scripture that says so. In short you are saying that God who's Almighty and Sovereign cannot convert the sinner unless he "cooperates" with the Almighty One?"-christan

Ill do it for her.

Gods desire to save every man
1 Tim 2:1-4, Colossians 1:26-29

Gods desire to save resisted by man
Matt 23:37, Luke 13:34

Gods warning NOT to resist him
Hebrews 3:7-12

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
---LindaH on 2/22/13


Sis. Shira, you say,
"trey, do you know what? you can willingly go to the middle of a freeway, you can shoot yourself in the head or overdose on drugs, you have the ability to kill yourself if you choose to."
You do have a choice to step in front of a bus. But you do not know if you are going to die or not. If it is not the time God ordained for you to die, you will not die. You will live until the time God has set up for you even in agony. You will die when God says so. The same holds true for salvation. You have choices in life, but where you wind up, has already been determined by God, life eternal, or eternal death in hell. But this takes faith in God, not faith in man.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/13


Rod4him, you say,
"A more practical question is, does one need to believe this teaching to be saved"
The point that God saves sinners is of most importance. The Triune Jehovah, Father, Son and Spirit, three Persons working together in Their Sovereign wisdon, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people is very important. The Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of the Father and the Son by renewing. God saves sinners, is a statement confession of faith in God. To disrupt the unity of the Trinity in bringing salvation by dividing the achievement of salvation between God and man is to allow man to share in the glory that only belongs to our God.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/13


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The Seg,
I like the way you put it.

John 6:44 - unless someone is "drawn", no one will come to Christ. The Greek word (elko) is literally dragged, as I was.

Belief (faith) is not active, like a water gun that God gives us, that we choose to point and shoot

Faith is also not like a pacemaker that God implants into certain people.

Faith is passive, and it means to be convinced, or persuaded. And it happens to us, not coming from us

Whoever believed something but they're not convinced of it? And whoever was conviced of something and yet didn't believe it?

THe Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh. But some supress the truth in unrighteousness
---James_L on 2/22/13


\\James_L: You are taking more the opinion of J Kalvin, while Mark is taking more the view of St.Augustin.\\
---Peter on 2/21/13

Not so.

God did not predestine anyone to believe the gospel, to be born again, go to heaven, enter the Kingdom of God, or however you want to word it.

He Predestined some believers to adoption, and to Inherit the Kingdom with Christ. There is a difference

Just as Jesus' ascension to the throne came through suffering, so it is with those who suffer with Him.

Not every believer suffers with Christ. Some will hear "well done" while others will not.

Some believers will be denied an inheritance because they denied Him. But they will still live in the Kingdom
---James_L on 2/22/13


Funny how many times I hear, God is not the one doing these things.
As if he's not the one and only architect.
Let alone you wouldn't even know there was a God, if not for God.


Predestination has nothing to with being chosen to believe the gospel.
JamesL

So then you must believe!
Because, you chose to believe and not because it is the will of God, right?

He didn't give you faith to believe. You just found it one day.
Is that how it happen there, James? You just found it or did God give it to you?
You know, chose you, like everyone else he chosen, from before the foundation of the earth?

You believe in God, because of God!
Peace Bro
---TheSeg on 2/21/13


James_L: You are taking more the opinion of J Kalvin, while Mark is taking more the view of St.Augustin.

BOTH have Scriptures to back them up,so do not accuse him, as I take it he will not accuse you.

I SUSPECT I probably agree more with the Calvinist view you take, but I equally respect the Augustinian view

In reality, though, I think none of us actually understands the difference between these views except maybe 20 theologians in the whole world!
---Peter on 2/21/13


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"Predestination has nothing to with being chosen to believe the gospel." JamesL

So, what's the Holy Bible then all about if it's not about salvation?

You then explained it in your own words, "Those who were already known to be joint-heirs were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through suffering".

Your theology is seriously erroneous. According to you, "Those who were already known to be joint-heirs" were predestined? What form of English language is this? If your god looked into the future to see those who will chose him, what's there to predestined? Aren't they already on the "right track" without your god having to do anything?
---christan on 2/21/13


trey, you still have a choice to do what you will as long as we are flesh and blood. ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. God will correct His people. I know a girl that God turned her over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. she was saved but chose a life of destruction to her body. she died at 41 yrs old with brain cancer...it was my daughter that I love so very much. I lost her but I will see her again. we aren't perfect no matter if God owns us or not. we still sin....all of us.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


Shira, AMEN!!! Our God is strong. The scriptures teach that he is mighty to save.

You are correct when you say that I could walk in to the highway and get hit by a bus, shoot myself in the head, etc. I can choose to do any of these things, but my final destination is not up to myself! In fact I do not own my body or soul. These are the property of God.

1Cor6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

If Christ purchased me and owns me, then he can do whatsoever he wills with me. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He owns the hills. It is he that is in charge, not us. So it's God that decides my salvation and not me.
---trey on 2/21/13


A more practical question is, does one need to believe this teaching to be saved? It is all quite subjective, A person declares that they are one of the "chosen," while others are not. Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.
---Rod4Him on 2/21/13


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trey, do you know what? you can willingly go to the middle of a freeway, you can shoot yourself in the head or overdose on drugs, you have the ability to kill yourself if you choose to. my God isn't weak and I never suggested any such. he is the King, deity, lily of the valley and all knowing and he even knows how many hairs are on your head and my head. neither you nor me has even the ability to count the hairs on our heads. you give me too much credit here. I am just a sinner saved by grace.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


Mark V,

you have a misinformed view.

Predestination has nothing to with being chosen to believe the gospel.

It has EVERYTHING to do with being known beforehand as a joint-heir with Christ

Those who were already known to be joint-heirs were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through suffering

And we are joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer with Him

Romans 8 sets the context for chapter 9

NOT every believer will be a joint-heir.

Ask me for the scriptures
---James_L on 2/21/13


Shira, you and many others are teaching a weak God that desires to save people but leaves them to their own demise, similar to a parent watching a child playing on the freeway and simply hoping the child doesn't get ran over.

The God of the scriptures is a God mighty to save. He does his will in the among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand. It is he alone that saves all Israel (that is all the elect family of God made up of Jews and Gentiles). It is he that borns us from the dead (quickens us). He is the True and Living God that is not willing that any of his will perish, meaning he will not allow any of his to perish. It is his own arm that brought salvation.
---trey on 2/21/13


"...but this thing about God creating evil does bother some." e.lee

Why would it bother a Christian then? Didn't God revealed in His Word that He created evil for a purpose? If one has faith in God, he/she would most definitely believe in His Word, wouldn't they?

Isn't the "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" about the very wisdom of God? If God does not have this knowledge with Him from eternity, how could He have created everything, including evil as He declared in Proverbs 16:4?

Evil was created because God Almighty wants to demonstrate His power over evil, of which the greatest of all evil was DEATH. And is Son Jesus conquered death! There you go.
---christan on 2/21/13


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//If He wanted something and He is God, don't you believe He would accomplish it?//MarkV

Actually there is. It is God's love. In the OT during the exodus, God's presence came down and the people trembled from God (Exodus 19:16). We cannot handle the awesomeness of God without the blood of Jesus, same with Isaiah in Ch6. So IF we did not have the blood of Jesus the worst place to be would be in the presence of a perfect God. Thus hell is better than heaven for non-christians.

Going back to JamesL and my first statement. What is predestination to you? I believe similar to Leon, but I do not know what you mean by predestination. Part of predestination is biblical and part is not.
---Scott1 on 2/21/13


christan //sad to say for you, Romans 9:11-14 says what it says.

Your reply is what I believe but this thing about God creating evil does bother some.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I rather doubt we can understand predestination or election no matter how long we debate the topic.

God is sovereign and will do whatever He pleases with His creation and that much we can agree on.
---e.lee7537 on 2/21/13


"God wants everyone to be born again." shira

Maybe it'll help us believe you if you can supply us the Scripture that says so. In short you are saying that God who's Almighty and Sovereign cannot convert the sinner unless he "cooperates" with the Almighty One? Is that how it is? Which also means God then becomes obligated to the sinner since he "cooperated" with the Almighty One that God now has to save him?

I understand this to be so because of what you have declared. And if it is so, you sure have a god of your own imagination and a perverted gospel that you believe.
---christan on 2/20/13


e.lee, sad to say for you, Romans 9:11-14 says what it says. For your info, there's no interpretation required but to believe that God has elected Jacob unconditionally because He loved him from eternity (and that's because verse 11 tells us this election was done before they were even born or knew good or evil - so that people like you cannot say God looked into the future and saw Jacob did good and chose him) and in hate rejected Esau.

Samuelbb7 was then right to say "that GOD does not love everyone". And if you have a problem with this, Paul then says it in your face, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Meaning, doesn't God have the right to love and hate some?
---christan on 2/20/13


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The most common or the only objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair.
All I can say is your right, God seems unfair. Because he can just pick who he wants.
And doesn't have to answer to anyone!

But, let's just see how unfair he is. Is there anyone in all of creation, who is worthy of God?
Anyone? No!

So God tells you, since there is no one worthy, I decided to take your brother and not you!
Is this what you're calling unfair?

I can't help think of what Cain might say.
But, should I be sad or happy, that God has taken someone from earth.
Even, if it is someone unworthy of such a gift. YES!
My Brother
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/20/13


"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, clearly there are people whom God has "predestined". They are destined to be changed into the image of Jesus.

So, it is good to know not only that the Bible says there is predestination, but also know what is predestined.

And why > God so loves His Son Jesus, that He desires to have others who are pleasing like His Son Jesus is. And His love in us has done this > 1 John 4:17 > so that "as He is, so are we in this world," . . . if we are truly predestined! Love destines and does (c:
---willie_c: on 2/20/13


James L, the question was clear, there is no mine or yours. No mystery to it. Is it taught yes or no? Most who have answered understood very well. Of course you do not have to answer.

Sis. Shira, you said something that I wanted to clarify, you said,
"I've heard predistoned until it makes me sick." First, if God taught it, why are you blue in the face? Shouldn't you want to know everything that God teaches? Or are somethings bad for you to learn about God?
Second, you say,
" God wants everyone to be born again" You are talking about Almighty all powerful God, right? If He wanted something and He is God, don't you believe He would accomplish it? Or is something or someone more powerful then God?
---Mark_V. on 2/21/13


Mark V,
could you clarify your question a little?

When you ask is Predestination taught in the bible, what do you mean by Predestination?

In other words, are you asking if YOUR idea of predestination is taught in scripture, or are you asking if SOME idea of predestination is taught in scripture?
---James_L on 2/20/13


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We should not confuse predestination with predetermination.

No should we confuse God's foreknowledge with what He has ordained for His will.

The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, #Ac 4:28 Ro 8:29,30 1Co 2:7 Eph 1:5,11 and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. Eastons Bible Dictionary
---e.lee7537 on 2/20/13


//They teaching includes that GOD hates some people because he made them ...

Then how do you interpret the following scripture?

Romans 9:11-14 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
---e.lee7537 on 2/20/13


God knew who would choose him and who would not. He knows our hearts. Its not like he is saying you are going to hell. He is saying why didn't you choose my Son who freely gave His life for you.
---Miike on 2/19/13


Samuel, you said it better than I could. I've heard predistoned until it makes me sick. God wants everyone to be born again. If He didn't we wouldn't need a church, a missionary or a preacher. how does the ones here justify such doctrine? it is actually sad how some believe God sent His Son to die for a select few. God help us all.
---shira4368 on 2/19/13


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Predestination is bogus? It's one thing to call someone bogus who does not have the Scripture in hand nor understand the Word, and another thing to call God a liar for telling us He predestined that His Son would come into this world to die for the sins of His people.

Predestination is in almost every book of the Bible. How so? We're told that everything happens is because God declared that He had purposed them to happen. Isn't that predestination?

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:12
---christan on 2/19/13


It is all fine when we speak of predestination for the Saints. But the doctrine is also based on the teaching that GOD does not love everyone. That JESUS did not die for all. They teaching includes that GOD hates some people because he made them so he could torture them for all eternity because he wanted to.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/19/13


no one can show bible concerning predestined to be for a few people. that is so bogus. Christ died for the whole world. we are all predestined from the foundation of the world. God knew who we were before we were ever conceived. God in His mercy and grace is giving us many chances. He is long suffering.
---shira4368 on 2/19/13


The greatest example of all in the doctrine of predestination that stands out is the coming of Jesus Christ and His dying on the cross at Calvary by Isaiah.

This was prophesied in detail by Isaiah in chapter 53 of his book. When it is prophesied by God through His prophets. And when it does come to past according to the prophesy, that's the definition of predestination.

And if God has already predestined the glory of Christ to be the head of the church, make no mistake that His body is also predestined, which is why we are told, For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..." It's already written and it will come to past.
---christan on 2/19/13


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Lets start by defining it just so everybody is on the same page. Predestination is the theory by biblical text that God chooses who will have faith in him and thus knows which people will be saved and which go to hell. Thus Jesus came to earth only to save those that God knew would be saved. Do you agree Mark?
---Scott1 on 2/19/13


What is the point in providing Scripture for you, Mark, when all you do is TWIST whatever Scripture is presented to you? And, you twist it according to YOUR understanding of Scripture which is warped already by the false teachings of the false interpretation of Predestination, and the false doctrine of Once-Saved, Always-Saved, which you've learned of and have adhered to for GOD knows how long now. So, why do you tempt people and try to provoke other believers on this Blog-Site with your stacked-up deck of "Questions"?
---Gordon on 2/19/13


Understanding "predestination" is a slippery slope for many:

1. Jn. 3:14-21 says God made salvation available to "whoever" believes on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation in Jesus extends backward to souls all the way to Adam, to souls living in Jesus's time on earth & to souls into the future until His second coming.

2. To truly see what Omniscient God sees, we must fully understand He sees instantly in eternity everything occurring in time. Yes, God knows who is "destined" to choose & who'll reject Him, but all are given the opportunity to individually believe & receive His grace, & mercy.

The idea God chooses some & rejects others is unbibilical heresy!
---Leon on 2/19/13


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