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One Nation Under God

I saw this posted on facebook today,"If we ever forget that we are one Nation under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." Ronald Reagan. Do you agree or disagree. I personally AGREE.

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Jefferson represents Jefferson. Jefferson Bible cuts out and pastes together a rendition of the Bible more palletable to Jefferson. That being, omit all the miracles of Jesus. I have thought to buy a copy of Jefferson's shortened Bible. I will like to read it. In a grander sense, we all cut and paste scripture. More of us. Nonetheless, their is a Bible influence even upon SOME of the founders of this young nation.
---Born on 2/27/13


\\But we can conclude the founding fathers were as much Christian as you and I.\\

Even though Thomas Jefferson himself denied the miracles of the NT, the deity of Jesus, and said that the Virgin Birth was as foolish as the birth of Minerva from the head of Jupiter?

Are you sure that Thomas Jefferson was as much of a Christian as you are?

I'm only asking that the SAME standards for "being a Christian" are applied to the Founding Fathers as are applied to members of other Christian Churches by people here on these blogs.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/13


\\And you are trying to tell me the God they referred to in the Declaration and so many other documents, letters, and public speeches, was referring to some other god, not the Christian God?\\

The God of Christianity is NOT the god that Jefferson believed in.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/26/13


Cluny, I see your arguements and they are not good arguments concerning the founding fathers. You say,
"May I add that many people here say that being a member of a church does NOT make one a Christian? Why doesn't this apply to the signers of the Dof I and Constitution? They were hardly secular saints."
This same argument you use can be use then on all who belong to the Eastern Orthodox. They too go to church but that doesn't mean they are Christians. So it is not a good argument just to oppose the fathers. No one knows who is really saved or not only God. But we can conclude the founding fathers were as much Christian as you and I. Even though we don't see someone heart.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


The founders acknowledged that our basic human rights are given by God, not from government. And that those rights are obvious (self evident)
---Jed on 2/25/13
And as soon as they could, they told the good news to the Native Americans, and the African Americans
---francis on 2/26/13


Sort of like the way you defend human rights for unborn babies?
---Jed on 2/26/13




For goodness sake Cluny, can you not comprehend? Whether the founders were actually saved or not is irrelevant (not that you are qualified to make that determination).

The fact is that all the founders considered themselves to be Christians. At minimum, they were active members of Christian congregations. Not a single one of them claimed any religion other than Christianity. And you are trying to tell me the God they referred to in the Declaration and so many other documents, letters, and public speeches, was referring to some other god, not the Christian God? That makes no sense at all! What god could they possibly be referring to? None of them believed in any other god.
---Jed on 2/26/13


Testament. The founders acknowledged that our basic human rights are given by God, not from government. And that those rights are obvious (self evident)
---Jed on 2/25/13
And as soon as they could, they told the good news to the Native Americans, and the African Americans
---francis on 2/26/13


Cluny's claims that Thomas Jefferson was anti-Christian is a total fabrication. Jefferson himself addressed this in a letter to Benjamin Rush:

"In some of the delightful conversations with you... the Christian religion was sometimes our topic, and I then promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be, sincerely attached to his doctrines."
---Jed on 2/26/13


\\You continue to make the erroneous claim that the founders were Deists despite that fact that they themselves claimed to be Christians. Whether you consider them to be true Christians or not is irrelevent. \\

Jed, an oft repeated theme on these blogs is that claiming to be a Christian does NOT make you one.

So the founding fathers claimed to be Christians. Did that claim make them such?

You seem to claim that StrongAxe is not a Christian because he doesn't think like you do. Does your claim REALLY mean that StrongAxe is not a Christian after all? Is not your claim really irrelevant?

You're not being consistent.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/26/13


Cluny, whether you consider Jefferson or any of the founders to be true Christians is completely irrelevant. I doubt many of them would consider YOU to be a true Christian. It has even been said many times on CN that YOUR idea of God is not the God of the Bible.

Fact is, most of the founders were ardent students of the Bible and considered themselves to be Christians, including Jefferson. And EVERY president in U.S. history has considered himself to be a Christian. Back when children prayed in school who did they pray to? (Hint: It wasn't Alla or Muhammad). To deny America's Christian heritage and the presence of Biblical principles in early American society and government makes you look quite uneducated in American history.
---Jed on 2/26/13




\\Life and liberty are both recurring themes throughout the New Testament.\\

Thomas Jefferson, principal author of the Declaration of Independence, did NOT believe in the Deity of Jesus or any of the miracles of the NT. Therefore it's really doubtful if he believed the same things about life and liberty that the NT does.

The same words, especially referring to intangible things, can mean different things to different people, depending on their world-views. Thomas Jefferson's world-view was definitely NOT that of a 21st century American evangelical Christian.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


StrongAxe, really? Have you ever even opened up the New Testament? Life and liberty are both recurring themes throughout the New Testament. The founders acknowledged that our basic human rights are given by God, not from government. And that those rights are obvious (self evident)

You continue to make the erroneous claim that the founders were Deists despite that fact that they themselves claimed to be Christians. Whether you consider them to be true Christians or not is irrelevent. I doubt they would consider you to be true Christians. The point is that the influence of Christianity has always been so great in America that our founders and every single president to date has associated himself with Christianity.
---Jed on 2/25/13


\\You should research when the school shootings started.\\

There were school shootings and bombings in the 19th century when everyone in the USA was a pious born-again Christian who glowed in the dark (as many people here seem to think) and schools were powerhouses of prayer.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


Mark_Eaton:

You said: Columbine happened in 1999 and Mr. Obama was a State Senator in Springfield Illinois.

So? There is no connection between Illinois and Colorado public education.


Jed:

Not quite. It says WE hold these truths to be self-evident. God didn't tell us he gave us life+liberty, we assume this for ourselves. The Bible never explicitly GUARANTEES them - especially as it permits slavery.


Elder:

The founding fathers believed in the God of the Deists - a benevolent but distant entity who created the world, but thereafter did not directly interfere in the affairs of men. Very different than the God of the Bible.
---StrongAxe on 2/25/13


\\they did not want a church-controlled national government (as Italy had). \\

Where did you get this idea?

There was not a united Nation of Italy until around 100 years AFTER the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

Until the Savoy King Victor Emmanuel, the peninsula of Italy was divided among the Papal States, Austria-Hungary, Kingdom of Savoy, Kingdom of Naples, and other petty principalities.

In other words, "Italy," like "Germany" was a geographical expression and NOT a united national state.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


they also never desired that faith be excluded from government. They demanded that government be excluded from faith. There is a difference.
---Elder on 2/25/13

As I said before, the framers did not want a government-sponsored national church (as England had) and they did not want a church-controlled national government (as Italy had).

The framers wanted freedom of religious practice and freedom from religious practice. A fine tight rope to walk.

You should research when the school shootings started. According to history, Columbine happened in 1999 and Mr. Obama was a State Senator in Springfield Illinois.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/25/13


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\\So Cluny, what you are saying is that the God of Christianity is not the Creator?\\

While the God of Christianity IS the Creator, the creator that Jefferson believed in is NOT the God of Christianity.

THAT is what I'm saying.

The DEclaration of Independence is an ENLIGHTENMENT document, not a Christian one, though the quasi-religious references in a couple of places have been interpreted through a Christian viewpoint.

May I add that many people here say that being a member of a church does NOT make one a Christian? Why doesn't this apply to the signers of the Dof I and Constitution? They were hardly secular saints.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


In other words, Jed thinks it's a complete lie to say that true life and liberty are found ONLY in our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ!

The "god" of the Declaration of Independence is NOT necessarily the God of Christianity. Jefferson, who wrote the DofI was NOT a Christian, but a deist.
---Cluny on 2/25/13


Again another lie! Unbelievable! You know full well I was not saying that life and liberty aren't from God. You know I was talking about your lie that the Declaration does not give credit to God.

So Cluny, what you are saying is that the God of Christianity is not the Creator? Wow! You're not even a Christian if you believe that!

Thomas Jefferson called himself a genuine Christian.
---Jed on 2/25/13


"The framers knew that faith in God begins at home." Mark_Eaton
That maybe and is true but they also never desired that faith be excluded from government. They demanded that government be excluded from faith. There is a difference.
The first schools in this new country were church schools. They taught readin' 'riting and 'ritmatic. They also had prayer.
There were no shootings in school until after O'hara came about and our leaders caved to her mouth.
The Washington mounument is the tallest building in DC. There was a law passed that has made it so. The reason is because there is Scripture around its top. The law makers at that time said that nothing in DC should be higher than the Word of God.
---Elder on 2/25/13


We cannot read the founders political statements, other writings and verbal statements and come to any other conclusion but that they trusted God and formed a nation based on His principles. Why would anyone want to accept they have a different agenda?
---Elder on 2/25/13

I do not. I know that the framers wanted a nation whose people depended upon God and Biblical principles.

But, they wanted that within the homes of the people, not within the halls of the government. To say that the framers did not want a wall of separation between church and state is not accurate. They made sure no religious statements or tests were incorporated into the Constitution.

The framers knew that faith in God begins at home.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/25/13


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\\Christianity teaches that true life and liberty can be found only in our Lord Jesus. The US Constitution and other founding documents do NOT say this.
---Cluny on 2/24/13

That is a complete lie.\\

In other words, Jed thinks it's a complete lie to say that true life and liberty are found ONLY in our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ!

The "god" of the Declaration of Independence is NOT necessarily the God of Christianity. Jefferson, who wrote the DofI was NOT a Christian, but a deist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


What I'd like to know is why someone in this modern day, faced with so much evidence, would deny what is right in their face and also call themselves a "christian."
I can only guess that they are willing ignorant, a dissembler or they possess the spirit of anti-christ.
We cannot read the founders political statements, other writings and verbal statements and come to any other conclusion but that they trusted God and formed a nation based on His principles. Why would anyone want to except they have a different agenda?
---Elder on 2/25/13


"Christianity teaches that true life and liberty can be found only in our Lord Jesus. The US Constitution and other founding documents do NOT say this."
Cluny
Wrong again.
The framers of the US Constitution were not writing a Bible or a document to lead worship services. In fact they made it plain that government could not do that. They were writing a government document to lead the country.
Does it strike anyone strange that every state has a preamble to their Constitution that makes reference to God?
In order to build this country the states had to join the union. They all accepted the US Constitution because it did not interfere with their own state Constitution.
---Elder on 2/24/13


If America doesn't have a Christian heritage then why has almost every single U.S. president identified himself as a Christian? Although some liberal groups have tried to make a few of the past presidents out to be deists or irreligious, almost all of the presidents can be characterized as Christian, at least by formal membership. Despite the accusations of liberals, no U.S. president has ever declared himself to be irreligious, agnostic, or atheist. More importantly, no president thus far has claimed any religion other than Christianity (with the exception of Obama who slipped up on National Television when he accidentally stated that he was a muslim). And ALL of the U.S. presidents (except Obama) were raised in Christianity as children.
---Jed on 2/24/13


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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty & the pursuit of Happiness......
---Reba on 2/24/13


While life and liberty may be found in the NT, these themes are found in OTHER religions as well (though not all).

Christianity teaches that true life and liberty can be found only in our Lord Jesus. The US Constitution and other founding documents do NOT say this.
---Cluny on 2/24/13


That is a complete lie. The very first sentence in the Declaration of Independence states that Life and Liberty were given to us by the Creator, not government. The founders understood that the constitution doesn't give us our liberties, it only acknowledges them. They claimed that our liberties come from God, just as the Declaration directly states (a fact which you lied about).
---Jed on 2/24/13


\\Tell it all now, the Puritans left England to excape a government run religion\\

WRONG!

They came to do unto others as they had been done unto, and to make THEMSELVES both the civil AND religious establishment. If they could have had their way imposed on others in England, they never would have left it.

**Life and liberty. Those are both recurring themes throughout the New Testament, **

While life and liberty may be found in the NT, these themes are found in OTHER religions as well (though not all).

Christianity teaches that true life and liberty can be found only in our Lord Jesus. The US Constitution and other founding documents do NOT say this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/24/13


Strongaxe I said the free worship of God. Tell it all now, the Puritans left England to excape a government run religion. Our Constitution forbids such.
The (lower 48) States that joined the union each has a preamble to their Constitution that starts with reference to God. The states were, and should be, sovereign. Because those States joined there was formed the United States of America. There are other nations in the Americas also.
All of the people who try to convince others that this nation was not founded on the principles of God are wrong. They need to stop denying the truth even tho they may wish it wasn't so. They won't stop because their agenda forbids them to.
---Elder on 2/24/13


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well, I do have parts of the Koran and it tells muslims to anailate Christians. in the past 25 years, mosque have been built all over the united states. wonder why they want to build in our country? that bunch comes here for freedom but try to change our laws to shirea law. the muslims are really digging in. one day they will raise up as an army here in the U.S. I won't be affected by that but my granddaughter and grandson surely will.
---shira4368 on 2/24/13


America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state. They wanted a sepration of Government from religion. they made it very plain. The fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions is undenyable. Here are the last to to join the lower 48.
Alaska 1956, We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land....
Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance establish this Constitution
---Elder on 2/24/13


So I'm curious, just WHICH "Christian principles" the Declaration of Independence ACTUALLY declares?
---StrongAxe on 2/23/13


Life and liberty. Those are both recurring themes throughout the New Testament, despite your claims that they aren't. Also, the acknowledgement of the Creator. Just because His name is not mentioned doesn't change who they were referring to, there is only one Creator. How many times have you used the word "God" on here without specifically naming which particular god you are referring to? Why? Because we Christians know there is only one true God. Now, that is just the first sentence of the Declaration (Preamble). The whole Declaration cites 27 Biblical violations by the king.
---Jed on 2/24/13


Jed:

OK. Let's go with the Declaration of Independence.

It says "we hold these truths to be self-evident", NOT "God revealed these truths to us.

It says "endowed by his creator", but doesn't actually mention who that creator is (why not?).

Those rights are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - a set of rights never specifically mentioned in either Judaism OR Christianity.

It also doesn't mention the responsibilities that go along with those rights (for example, worshiping God, following God's laws, etc.

So I'm curious, just WHICH "Christian principles" the Declaration of Independence ACTUALLY declares?
---StrongAxe on 2/23/13


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Cluny and StrongAxe, you do realize that our Country was not founded by the constitution right? It was founded by the Declaration of Independence? So saying that the country was not founded Christian principles simply because God is not mentioned in the constitution makes no sense. The constitution is not a founding document. The constitution is the law, so all that proves is that Christianity was never intended to be forced by law, which we all already know. There are several other documents from our founders that do contain references to God and Biblical passages, including our founding document, the declaration. Just because the constitution doesn't mention God directly means nothing other than that Christianity is not law.
---Jed on 2/23/13


Elder:

If America was founded on the worship of God, why doesn't the Constitution mention it even once? The First Amendment forbids Congress from passing any laws that establish religion - ensuring that Americans are free to believe (or not) in anyone or anything they want, without being forced to submit to the beliefs of others.

This was why the Puritans left England. They wanted to worship God, but their idea of how to do so was different than other people in England who had specific laws about how to do it. Americans were careful to avoid that same mistake.


shira4368:

It's because the Qur'an may have originally started out all nice and friendly, but got militant and fanatical later.
---StrongAxe on 2/23/13


shira4368 on 2/23/13:

That is not from the Quran

That is from one Muslim nut

Don't confuse the two
---Peter on 2/23/13


Cluny wants us to think that this country was founded on the Constitution. That is just plain false and total misdirection.
This country was founded on the principle of free worship of God.
The Constitution is our guide line for establishment of law and how the country would be run with limits. Our nations laws come from only two places, 1. the Bible and 2. the minds of men. When we take God out of the process then we end up with a humanistic society. That appears to be what Cluny is pushing.
Cluny do you really believe that Born Again was not a concept when this country was founded? Ya gotta be kidding!
---Elder on 2/23/13


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strongax, if what you say is true concerning the Koran, why are we the great satan and Israel the smaller satan and they would enjoy chopping your head off too.
---shira4368 on 2/23/13


shira4368:

The Qur'an teaches that Jews and Christians are the People of the Book, and shou,d be respected. Unfortunately, it also teaches that Jews are apes and pigs because of their unbelief.

Muhammad originally wrote encouraging and positive things while he was in Mecca When he was thrown out, he fled to Medina, became more militant and unforgiving, raised an army, and came back and conquered Mecca.

The Qur'an contains verses from both periods. Unfortunately, Muslims believe the later ones supercede the earlier ones. So, Jews and Christians should be treated with respect - and then killed.
---StrongAxe on 2/23/13


strongax, I know mohammed is dead. I know who started that cult. I know they think my God is their alla. if muslims really believes alla is god, then guess that speaks loud their belief that has caused so much death and destruction. if my God is their god, all the killing of Christians and jews would never happen.
---shira4368 on 2/23/13


StrongAx, I know voting on that would NEVER work. I was only teasing Cluny because when he ended his comment on the presidential oath, he ended with his usual, "Glory to Jesus Christ". It could've easily been mistaken as the ending of the oath, if someone ignored the comma's,periods.... any way, only a little joke folks.:-) However, having said that, let me be quick to say, I feel that we should all(presidents included) try to bring Glory to Jesus Christ. Sorry to say, it'd take a miracle for that to be the case.:-(
---Reba on 2/22/13


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In other words, Jed, you cannot answer the question I asked so you stoop to mockery. BTW, you misspelled "medicine," or is "mediciDe" a Freudian slip? Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/13


\\As Jefferson wrote "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time".\\

Great statement and worth repeating.

Many on these blogs seek to dominate and impose their own opinions as, "Thus saith The Lord," rather than "seeking first the Kingdom of God." They are no longer seeking because they seem to think they have arrived.
---Rod4Him on 2/22/13


Jed:

You said: Cluny, are you serious right now? You've got to be kidding? Did you forget to take your PMS medicide?

and nothing else.

Please, could you actually make a factual statement, or a comment on someone else's post, rather than merely resorting to an ad hominem attack like this one? (i.e. implying "your opinions are ridiculous, therefore you must not be in your right mind", without ACTUALLY stating which opinions are ridiculous, nor providing any actual evidence WHY they are ridiculous).
---StrongAxe on 2/22/13


Cluny, are you serious right now? You've got to be kidding? Did you forget to take your PMS medicide?
---Jed on 2/22/13


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\\What was said is that our country has a Christian heritage and was founded on Christian principles.\\

OK. What Christian principles are in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution? Please give BCV for the allusions therein.

I've asked this question many times, and nobody has ever answered it.

**well cluny, I have heard all the presidents say "so help me God". even the muslim in office now said it.**

So have I, but it's NOT in the Constitution itself.


Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/13


Reba:

Once citizens vote on whether we should end the Presidential oath with "Glory to Jesus Christ", they can also vote whether we should say "Glory to Allah" or "Glory to Zeus" or any other god that might be popular at the time. Do you really want to risk that? One of the guarantees of the First Amendment is that you never need to worry about that.


shira4368:

Allah is not a man, but the god Islam. (The Muslims say he is the same as the God of the Bible. Some others disagree.) The founder of Islam was Muhammad, who was a man, and who died (so you would have better luck finding HIS bones).

Jed:

Both liberals and conservatives can spin history to their own advantage.
---StrongAxe on 2/22/13


The Constitution forbids any religious test as a requirement of public office.
---Cluny on 2/21/13

The framers were very careful to erect a wall of separation between church and state. They neither wanted a church-run government or a government-run church.

They knew of the corruption of the church and its priesthood. As Jefferson wrote "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time".
---Mark_Eaton on 2/22/13


well cluny, I have heard all the presidents say "so help me God". even the muslim in office now said it. this country was founded on Christian principals whether you like it or not.
---shira4368 on 2/22/13


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Cluny, you're getting off topic. Nobody suggested that religion is forced upon people by law in this country. Quite the opposite. What was said is that our country has a Christian heritage and was founded on Christian principles. Those principles were put into laws. And the founders of this country were Christians for the most part. That's what is meant by Christian Nation. Not that Christianity is forced on citizens by the constitution. The constitution guarantees freedom to worship however you like, or not to worship at all.
---Jed on 2/22/13


\\according to the Ten Commandments of God". -- James Madison\\

That might be what James Madison said, but that is NOT what the Constitution says. And Madison's words have no force of law.

Furthermore, only THREE of the Ten Commandments are of any effect in the laws of the various states: laws against theft, murder, and perjury and slander (bearing false witness).

**Cluny, I think "Glory to Jesus christ" would be a great way to end the Presidential oath. :-) Let's take a vote..... :-)
---Reba on 2/21/13**

But what if the President-elect is not a Christian? The Constitution forbids any religious test as a requirement of public office.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


\\cluny you forgot to add "so help me God."
---shira4368 on 2/21/13\\ No, shira. I did NOT forget to add those words, because they are NOWHERE in the form prescribed in the Constitution. If you don't believe me, look it up in Article II for yourself, the Constitution is on line. These words are added by tradition only--BUT tradition is something that most people here reject when it applies to Christianity. Nor does the Constitution require that any oaths of office be taken on the Bible. Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


\\ it is not a reference to alla or any false idol. go to alla's grave and you will find bones but if you go to Jesus tomb, it is empty.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13
\\ shira, what do your comments here have to do with the presidential oath or US Constitution? And for your information, "allah"--clearly a cognate of the Hebrew EL for God--is the word Arabic speaking Christians use for God. In any case, Allah is not buried in either Mecca or Medina. MAHOMET is, and I agree his body rots as a symbol of what happened to his soul of he did not repent. Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


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"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves...according to the Ten Commandments of God". -- James Madison
---Jed on 2/21/13


Cluny, I think "Glory to Jesus christ" would be a great way to end the Presidential oath. :-) Let's take a vote..... :-)
---Reba on 2/21/13


cluny you forgot to add "so help me God."
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


Here is the presidential oath from Article II, section 1, of the US Constitution. Please find ONE reference to God in it. Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


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\\ why is it full of God. even the oath is reference to God. \\Wrong. There is NO reference to God in the presidential oath, in the text actually given given in the Constitution. Read it for yourself. **
Cluny, when will you liberals ever learn you can't change history by denying recorded factual statistics.** I've said similar things to many people here, Jed, including you. Just because they were church members does NOT mean they believed everything their church taught. Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


if you say most wouldn't be Christian that signed our constitution, why is it full of God. even the oath is reference to God. it is not a reference to alla or any false idol. go to alla's grave and you will find bones but if you go to Jesus tomb, it is empty.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


\\52 of them were active members of their church! ...\\

Not true. Many WERE Unitarian or Deists, and this cannot be denied.
---Cluny on 2/21/13


Cluny, when will you liberals ever learn you can't change history by denying recorded factual statistics.

FROM WIKIPEDIA:
"Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalian, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists. A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin."
---Jed on 2/21/13


I repeat my assertion: How many of the signers of our founding documents would actually be considered "born again Christians" if their personal beliefs were compared with those here on these blogs
---Cluny on 2/21/13

This matters little to me.

What matters most (for politics and morality) is two core beliefs, described by Jesus, and paraphrased in my own words:

First, recognition that there is a God. Man in not in control of this planet, this country, this life, or even himself. Relying on the help of God or other people should be encouraged.

Second, that respecting and serving others is the best thing we can do in our life. Serving ourselves must be seen as the worst thing we can do in our lives.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/21/13


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Israel in the OT were the only one nation under God. So don't kid yourself that the USA is in the same boat as the nation of Israel in the OT. Even then, Paul revealed, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel".

There's no nation at this present age and time that's Godly nor do they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And Reagan was not different, so don't be fooled into thinking that the USA was ever a Godly nation.
---christan on 2/21/13


\\todays polititions don't believe the constitution and some want to bring it "up to date". isn't that a shame.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13\\

Not at all, shira.

The Constitution itself has provisions for being brought "up to date" by the amendment process, which has four variants.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


"Leon, I like what you said. You "think" right. :-) Thankx"
---Reba on 2/20/13


You're welcome! :)
---Leon on 2/21/13


Leon, I like what you said. You "think" right. :-) Thankx
---Reba on 2/20/13


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\\52 of them were active members of their church! ...\\

Not true. Many WERE Unitarian or Deists, and this cannot be denied.

Even some of the official members of Protestant Churches, such as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were deistic in their own personal beliefs.

And the roots of "born again" Christianity date from AFTER the drafting and implementation of the Constitution.

Finally, I repeat my assertion: How many of the signers of our founding documents would actually be considered "born again Christians" if their personal beliefs were compared with those here on these blogs, no matter WHAT their official membership was?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


jed you hit the nail right on the head. last july 4th my pastor who is a patriot researched all the men who framed the constitution. most were Christians. many were Methodist. todays polititions don't believe the constitution and some want to bring it "up to date". isn't that a shame.
---shira4368 on 2/21/13


But the main contributors to these documents were Deists, Unitarians, and others...
---Cluny on 2/20/13


That is a flat out lie. Of the 55 men who framed the constitution, 52 of them were active members of their church! All Christian churches by the way. And most of them protestant churches.
---Jed on 2/20/13


\\Our religious heritage is our nation's foundation.\\

Then why is there not one Biblical quotation in either the Declaration of Independence or Constitution?

I admit, their interpretative prism has been a general Calvinist Protestant.

But the main contributors to these documents were Deists, Unitarians, and others who would not be allowed to join the typical modern American evangelical (especially independent) congregation, because NONE of them believed in "being saved" in the sense this phrase gets used on these blogs.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/13


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Moreover, "IN GOD WE TRUST" is upon OUR money. In money we do not trust. Behind every bill and upon every coin are the words, "IN GOD WE TRUST". To get rid of God is disaster. But nations do rise and fall. Egypt, Rome and Britian no longer excell. Each has its former greatness. GOD STILL RULES though it seems to us he be an ABSENTEE LANDLORD. But he will send his son to collect. Luke 20:9-18 Amid all that, Satan is the Prince of the Air and the systems have been given to him. Jesus did not dispute that with the Devil (Luke 4:5-6) who showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world claiming, I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to."
---bike on 2/20/13


I think Ms. Reba would appreciate it if we didn't jump track & derail this blog Cluny. :)
---Leon on 2/20/13


I also agree with Reba.

I believe as our religious heritage goes, so goes our nation.

Ps 11:3 "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?"

Our religious heritage is our nation's foundation. Regardless of what is said or written today, our nation was founded by religious men who believed it was necessary to have a governing compass in their lives and that governing compass was faith in the God of the Bible. They believed that if our nation ever turned from that governing compass, that chaos would follow. I find that they were very prophetic.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/20/13


\\Pledge of Allegiance? If the USA school system once again yielded to "God's" (not gods) authority over them, no doubt, school shootings would end.
---Leon on 2/20/13\\

If US public schools were ever under God's authority, they would all have been teaching ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, Leon. How would you have felt about that?

And did you know that in Imperial Russia, the public school system was under the direction of the Russian Orthodox Church?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/13


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I agree Reba: As stated by Ronald Reagan, it's very clear what he meant by, "one Nation under God", i.e., a people (nation) humbly submissive to God's authority over them (Jas. 4:1-10)

In Lincoln's day, under God was a common idiom meaning "with God's help" or "the Lord willing." (Mat. 6:9-15) GOD'S WILL BE DONE!

I believe there's a strong similarity & correlation between Lincoln & Reagan's statements. Both imply ONE NATION UNDER ONE GOD.

Pledge of Allegiance? If the USA school system once again yielded to "God's" (not gods) authority over them, no doubt, school shootings would end.
---Leon on 2/20/13


Cluny, actually your claim about the pledge of allegiance is only partially correct. Many included the words "under God" ever since the formal adoption of the original pledge of allegiance by congress in 1942. Although you are correct that the addition of "under God" wasn't legally adopted until 1954. But people had been saying it that way for years.
---Jed on 2/20/13


A bit of history.

Abraham Lincoln used the phrase "under God" in the Gettysburgh address. At the time, it meant "God willing."

The Pledge of Allegiance did NOT contain the words "under God" until 1954.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/19/13


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