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What man, in the Bible, had twin sons by his daughter in-law? Were they considered to also be his grandchildren? Was the man and his daughter in-law guilty of incest, adultery and/or fornication?

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 ---Leon on 2/21/13
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Jed, when I read the stories of so many in the Bible like Judah, his sons killed by God, Tamar's twins, one coming out before the other, and the consequences of their terrible mistakes so many made, it speaks of the depravity of man. Almost all of the great people mentioned in the Bible did terrible things. Sometimes the things they did were so terrible you wonder why God chose to use them as He did. But it all has a purpose in the plan of God. God knew exactly who He wanted to use for each part of His plan. Thanks for the discussion Jed, peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/13


Mark V, that you for that history :) I understand much better now.
---Jed on 3/2/13


Jed, my last post was not posted. I wanted to remind you that Tamar was not his daughter but his daughter in law. Judah had promised her after his two older sons died that she was promised to Shelah after he reached age. Well he reached age and Judah did not give her to Shelah. Judah did not keep his promise. So she decided to deceive Judah by covering up. When a person sleeps with a close relative it is incest. That is what we call it today. At the time it was not punishable but later it was depending if you go by the Levitical or the Deut. laws. It is still call incest. Incest was a custom until God put a stop to it.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/13


Mark V, that is my point exactly. She had to hide her identity from Judah in order to get him to sleep with her. She knew he would not willingly sleep with her if he knew it was his own daughter. The fact she had to hide her identity from him makes it hard for me to believe those who say father-daughter relations were normal and acceptable in those days and was not considered incest. If that was the social norm of the day, why would Judah be opposed to sleeping with his daughter? It obviously wasn't because he was choosy about who he slept with because he was thought he was sleeping with a prostitute and didn't even know who he was sleeping with.
---Jed on 3/1/13


Unlawful Sexual Relations:

"The Lord said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites & say to them: I am the Lord your God. You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, & you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws & be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees & laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord. No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.'" (Lev. 18:1-6)


Judah wasn't Tamar's father. Their relationship happened before God gave the commandments to Moses. It wasn't considered incest before then.
---Leon on 3/1/13




Jed, you are right that she deceived Judah. But you have to remember she was covered herself to the point of him not knowing it was her. It did become incest but Judah did not know. I stopped to think how Judah could not know who he was sleeping with, I do not believe anyone is stupid enough to sleep with someone he cannot see, but that is what we are told.
---Mark_V. on 3/1/13


Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tamar have to trick Judah by posing as a prostitute in order to get him to sleep with her and impregnate her? That right there tells me that father-daughter incest must have been frowned upon even in those days.
---Jed on 2/28/13


"...Why do you think God would choose the line of Judah from which the King of Kings and the line of David came if not for these points?..."
---bike4335 on 2/24/13


Judah, being the 4th born son, received the privileges of the oldest son after his older brothers, Reuben, Simon & Levi disgraced themselves. That's why Bike. (Genesis 49)
---Leon on 2/27/13


Bike, what Judah did was not a righteous act at all. He did recant the burning of Tamar but only because she finally told the truth when she confirmed that she had the signet and cord, and staff. He acknowledge them and said,
"She has been more righteous that I"
This was not an accolade for her moral character and faith, but a commendation by Judah for her attention to inheritance rights of her family line and Judah's shameful neglect thereof. Judah was more concern for Judah. With Joseph gone seeminlgly for good and with Reuben, Simeon, and Levi out of favor for incest and for treachery, Judah would most likely accede to firstborn status.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


And Judah said unto his brethren, "What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood? Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content." (Genesis 37:26-27)

willie_c, you say, "So, a man of such character could have easily gone on to do other such evil, and bring up sons so evil that the LORD killed them" > Genesis 38:1-10.

Judah was a savior to his brother Joseph and of Tamar, Judah said, "She is more righteous than me." Why do you think God would choose the line of Judah from which the King of Kings and the line of David came if not for these points?

Tamar is intended for Shelah.
---bike4335 on 2/24/13




willie_c:

Actually, the Old Testament didn't have a "marital status" as we did today. Women either belonged to husbands or not, but no similar status applied to men. Men could have as many women as they wanted, without committing adultery.

Thus, if a married woman slept with an another man, it was adultery. If a married man slept with an unmarried woman, it was not - at best, it was a civil offense against her father (and entitled him to compensation for damaged goods - i.e. a bridesprice).

The notion that men were similarly bound (and that came along with monogamy for males) came much later.
---StrongAxe on 2/23/13


Genesis chapter 38 > If Judah was married, I would say it was adultery for him to be sexually involved with someone he thought was a prostitute.

Judah did that, after he and his brothers sold Joseph into slavery > Genesis 37 > having their own father think his son Joseph had been torn apart and devoured by a wild animal (Genesis 37:23-36). Judah let him think that, for years and years (Genesis 42:17-43:13). Judah was a man capable of so betraying his own father.

So, a man of such character could have easily gone on to do other such evil, and bring up sons so evil that the LORD killed them > Genesis 38:1-10.

"Your real children are ones you bring up to be like you."
---willie_c: on 2/23/13


\\"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

And so I must obey my Master......
---christan on 2/22/13\\

Would you like me to introduce you to MY Master: our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ?

To Him be glory!
---Cluny on 2/23/13


"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

And so I must obey my Master......
---christan on 2/22/13

makes my ? who your master truly is.
It is not what goes into a man that defileth him but what comes out of him that does.You will know them by their fruits.

It is really bad fruit when a person bad mouths people for discussing the WHOLE word of God. People studying to show themselves approved as God would have them do.

Anyway, Leon, praying really hard brother!
Please keep up with the discussion I am learning a lot!
---g on 2/22/13


"Leon, Just ignore Christan and maybe he will go away. He does not seem to understand that learning what the ENTIRE word of GOd says will help a person find God's truth.

Anyway, I had no idea about this one. Please continue the discussion!
And thank God for people not afraid to search all the Word for truth. Not just the bits they want to hear."
---g on 2/22/13


Yes, ignore & pray for his deliverance! :) It truly is about the whole counsel (ALL THE WORD) of God (Gen.-Rev.). I only say what I believe the Lord gives me to say that's "within" the bounds of His Word. Please hold what I (or anyone else) say up to the scrutiny of the Bible & pray for a continued fruitful discussion here friend!
---Leon on 2/22/13


"Judah. Judah had [sex] with his daughter-in-law thinking she was a prostitute...Yes, it was incest.[?]...Tamar improvised...The occasion becomes part in the geneology of Jesus as well as Rahab the prostitute...A very interesting geneology."

---born on 2/21/13


Judah's thinking Tamar was a prostitute is a whole blog discussion within itself. :) To us, the fact that Judah lay with Tamar (his daughter inlaw) is indeed incest. But, back then (before the law of Moses) it wasn't. For me personally, what really sends up a red flag is Judah's known propensity to seek out prostitutes. That's fornication & perhaps the subject for another blog. :) I see Tamar as being innocent of incest & prostitution.
---Leon on 2/22/13


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"And thank God for people not afraid to search all the Word for truth. Not just the bits they want to hear." g

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

And so I must obey my Master......
---christan on 2/22/13


Francis, you are multiply wrong. NO, SHE WAS NOT FREE. Judah instructed Tamar to go live with her dad (Gen 38:11) until Shelah had grown. Shelah was next in line to have Tamar. She was to have no other husbands outside the sons of Judah. "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to raise up offspring FOR YOUR BROTHER." (Gen 38:8, Mt 22:24) She was not free. Had she been free, Judah would not have thought to kill her.

Lev 18:15 You must not have sexual intercourse with your daughter-in-law.

1 Cor 5:1-2 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his fathers wife. And you are proud! Shouldnt you be filled with grief?
---born on 2/22/13


What man, in the Bible, had twin sons by his daughter in-law?
Judah

Were they considered to also be his grandchildren?

No they were his children, her husbands were dead, she was free and legally could marry anyone

Was the man and his daughter in-law guilty of incest, adultery and/or fornication?

Neither, This is the law that allow women to have children so that they could be cared for in their older years

I do not believe that either of them were married so adultery is out

They were not blood related so incest in our

Most likely attempted prostition of Judah part
---francis on 2/22/13


==Were they considered to also be his grandchildren?==
"My understanding of Matthew 1 is that they are called his SONS, not grandsons. But does it matter?
Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 2/22/13


Very good Mr. Cluny! :) Realistically, we're all the SONS of our grandfathers because our grandfather's seed ultimately made us. But, in our day & time if our grandfathers had lain with our
biological mothers it would be considered incest & thereby taboo. Not so in Judah & Tamar's day since they lived before the laws of Moses.

Does it matter? Weeeell, only in the sense that it gives us possible insights into what made the "real people" (like you & me) in the Bible tick.
---Leon on 2/22/13


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Leon, Just ignore Christan and maybe he will go away.
He does not seem to understand that learning what the ENTIRE word of GOd says will help a person find God's truth.

Anyway, I had no idea about this one. Please continue the discussion!
And thank God for people not afraid to search all the Word for truth. Not just the bits they want to hear.
---g on 2/22/13


==Were they considered to also be his grandchildren?==

My understanding of Matthew 1 is that they are called his SONS, not grandsons.

But does it matter?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/13


\\Actually Tamar had twins Cluny.
---Leon on 2/21/13\\

Thank you for refreshing my memory, Leon.

Tamar (spelled "Thamar") and her son Phares are mentioned in Matthew 1:2.

Whatever sins stood to the charge of Judah and Tamar/Thamar, our Savior had no scruple or shame about counting His physical descent from them.

"If You, O Lord, were to number all our sins, who could stand?" Psalm 129LXX/130.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


Judah. Judah had sexual relations with his daughter-in-law thinking she was a prostitute. This is in the geneology of Christ. Yes, it was incest. Judah did not have sexual relations with her again. He professed "She is more righteous than I for I did not give her my son." Tamar improvised as she was entitled to a kinsman redeemer. The occasion becomes part in the geneology of Jesus as well as Rahab the prostitute who is also in the geneology of Jesus. A very interesting geneology.
---born on 2/21/13


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Leon, you in your own eyes I'm sure claims to everyone you're a "Christian", right? So, why do you ask questions that pertains to sin which is so clearly declared in the Bible and then question if those acts are guilty of sin against God? The very fact that it's called incest, adultery and/or fornication tells anyone that it's sin.

So what are you searching for? Are are trying to stand before everyone here as "righteous" like the Pharisees were? I gave you the answer from the Scripture and you reject it by hurling insults at the Word of God. Well, good for you... I'm sure you feel real good and pleased with yourself.
---christan on 2/21/13


"The only twins I can think of in the Bible are Jacob and Esau.

Later Judah had a child by his daughter-in-law Tamare. And he said of her, 'She is more righteous than I.'"

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


Actually Tamar had twins Cluny.
---Leon on 2/21/13


The only twins I can think of in the Bible are Jacob and Esau.

Later Judah had a child by his daughter-in-law Tamare. And he said of her, "She is more righteous than I."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/13


Judah. The family patriach of the 12 tribes of the Jewish nation what would eventually bring forth King David and Jesus himself. yeah it is a jacked up story to say the least. The interesting thing about the OT is that there is not a lot of commentary. Sometime it just happens and you have to draw your conclusions.
She was not guilty of the listed sins due to the heir after husband died rules but Judah was. Though she could have gone about it differently.
---Scott1 on 2/21/13


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Your problem Chris is you always let your mouth run ahead of your brain. Look bud, the way it works is like this. Bloggers pose questions. If you have the answer(s) then say so. Otherwise, be silent & allow others who may have answers to come forth. Apparently this blog isn't for you. Your ridiculous rudeness & feeble attempt to bluster your way through with more questions, instead of answers to the questions, is absurd. Your actions speak volumes to your immaturity & mental instability. Please take your pills as scheduled & chill!
---Leon on 2/21/13


So, what's your point? Aren't all mankind born in sins and trespasses as declared by the Lord? Do you have a problem believing in God's declaration?

And guess what? Here's something from Isaiah for you to chew on, and maybe you would not bother to ask such questions in the near future.

"For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? ... the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."
---christan on 2/21/13


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