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I Don't Know Who Jesus Is

Does John 1:18 say Jesus the "only Son" or the "only God?" Is the Son an "only-begotten god",a created secondary god alongside the "unbegotten" Father? Or is He the "only begotten Son" in a literal sense - begotten by a union of the Father and Mary?

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 ---kathr4453 on 2/22/13
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MarkV pipe down. Your questions also attract the cults as well.

You believe some council of RCC, who made up some doctrine not in scripture and made it a "LAW" worth killing over, just like they made the bread and wine a "LAW" to believe they actually change bread and wine into the actual body of Christ.

The scriptures were complete long before these gnostics came to a council and made their verson of the Triune God a LAW.

Since I don't know them or even if they were Born Again to begin with..i do know they were not Apostles called to add anything to Scripture.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/13


"Mistranslation?" Warwick

Comparing other translations is certainly not a substantive argument as to whether a translation is a "mistranslation" (or wrong) as you have asserted.

To make that kind of judgment you have to refer to the underlying biblical language. Otherwise your comments are without exegetic basis, but rather, superficially driven by personal prejudices.


The Gk for the later part of vs 24 reads:

"...gar douleuo kyrios Christos".



To establish that your claim is justified, you need to argue that the NWT, Knox, GNT, etc., have inaccurately represented the Greek, not simply that they read differently than your bible of choice.

Prove it.
---scott on 2/25/13


"He [Jesus] is the Angel of Jehovah." Mark_V

Please explain.

Do you believe, as did John Calvin (who's teachings you follow), that this "angel" was in fact Michael the Archangel?
---scott on 2/25/13


\\I read it in Arius' history,which was attempted to also be hushed\\

Written by whom? And what were the author's primary sources.

The earliest ones are from Eusebius, Socrates (not the pre-Christian philosopher), and Sozomen. They all agree about how Arius died.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/13


Scott it would be more coloquial and correct to write tais-toi, to me!

I will spell it out more simply for you. The Greek in the Kingdom Interlinnear calls Jesus Lord in Colossians 3:24. However the NWT, translated from the KIT calls Jesus Master. However NIV,ESV,NASB,Holman, ISV,KJV,Asv, and Douay all rener it 'Lord.' Interestingly the Aramaic renders the sentence THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah. You would say that these translations (and others) which render Lord as Lord do so because they are Trinitarian editions. And I would say the uneducated NWT team render it Master only because they are antiTrinitarian.

Now stop your ducking and weaving and answer my questions. I have more awaiting.
---Warwick on 2/25/13




'John 20:28 JWs should be calling Jesus "our God'- Marc.

'THE Lord of me and THE God of me'. Marc ignores the 6th Granville Sharp rule believing Thomas had 1 person in view- God.

However, the 1st GS rule (essentially '1 article 1 referent'} is seen, not at Jo.20:28 (which has 2 articles) but at Jo.20:17 literally: 'THE father of me and father of you and God of me and God of you'- one article for the whole possessive phrase.

Thus, naively ignorant of context, grammar and Sharp's rule, Marc believes Jesus will ascend to 'my God' (20:17) and Jesus is also 'the God' at 20:28.

Two Gods too many! Marc's polytheist trinity is in full bloom. JW's don't call Jesus 'our God' for good reason!
---David8318 on 2/25/13


'the Greek records Thomas saying TO(i.e. auto)... Jesus "The Lord of me and the God of me." (Jo.20:28)'- Marc.

Nobody denies Thomas was talking TO Jesus. Marc is holding John 20:28 under the microscope and is completely oblivious to the sense of events surrounding Thomas' experience.

Thomas didn't just see and believe Jesus' resurrection. Thomas also discerned the power Jehovah God has over death. Afterall, Jehovah had just performed a miracle- the resurrection of His Son. Wouldn't we glorify God if someone dear to us was raised from the dead!?

Thus, Thomas' remark TO Jesus included both 'the Lord of me'- Jesus, and 'the God of me'- Jehovah. 2 persons in view: context, grammar & Sharp's rule 6 testify.
---David8318 on 2/25/13


David,

Instead of the dishonest partial quote from your Watchtower masters, you should have read the original Rule 6 from Sharp.

"The context must explain or point out the person to whom the two nouns relate...as in John 20:28 two distinct divine characters are applied to one person, for the context clearly expresses to whom the words were addressed by Thomas, [this] perspicuity in the address [i.e. auto] clearly proves the futility of the Arians [i.e. JWs]." Sharp continues and explains why the Greek grammar has Thomas unambiguously calling Jesus The God [of us].

BTW, still waiting a non-evasive response to Sharp's address of 1 Peter 1:11 and Titus 2:13 where Jesus is called The God.
---Marc on 2/25/13


Thank you Willie. Nice post.

Francis..when God sent Moses into Egypt, Moses asked, who shall I tell them sent me, God replied , tell them "I AM "sent you.

Everyone knows, or I should say, everyone should know God referred to Himself as "I AM."...
Now go to those scriptures and see exactly what Moses said when asked...who did he say sent him?

What did they reply? Did they say...say what? No, they also knew who I AM is referring to...

Jesus said I AM the way truth and light. Jesus said how many times "I AM". Hint hint.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/13


Exodus 3:14

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, "I Am " hath sent me unto you.

Francis, this is the most famous well known verse in the Bible.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/13




Kathr, your heretical question has open the door for all cults to have a field day with the Lord. They have been trying to strip the Son of God of His divine nature from the very beginning. That is their duty as cults. They are only following what they teach. But the Son is eternal, He never became the Son, the Son is the eternal Word of God. Always has been and always will be. He is omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, the first Begotten of the Father, He is the Angel of Jehovah, He is the Creator of all things, He is the Old Testament Theophanies. Every attribute related to Deity or ascribed to the Father or the Holy Spirit can also be attributed to Christ. His preexistance is declared by Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/13


Hi, Kathr(ine?) > It does say Jesus is "the Word of God". A word I speak is not me, but a word still in my mind is included in being me (c: And you could say a word-idea in my mind can be me plus the beginning of something I create. It is not my creation, but is the beginning of that creation (c: So, in this way I see that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God", as He says in Revelation 3:14. But ones do not want to believe God came in Person, because they themselves are impersonal in how they love. Our Father gave us His own, in sending Jesus, not some second-best. This is how we need to love, too (c: following Their example > Ephesians 4:31-5:2 (c:
---willie_c: on 2/24/13


"I have already answered." Warwick (Playing fast and loose with the truth).

Hilarious if not so sad.

Where? What is the date of the post where you explained (ignoring the evil NWT and KIT) that other translations with a similar rendering including the Knox Bible and GNT are "Mistranslation(s)" as you have previously stated?

Your inability to even attempt to support your accusation with a reference to the Greek makes it abundantly clear that you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Usually at this point you break out the French...ahhh the good ol' days.

Back up your claim with the Greek if you can. Otherwise...Taisez-vous.
---scott on 2/24/13


'Re John 20:28, I believe you have misinterpreted Granville Sharp's rule: "When a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai...they have the same referent."'- Marc (2/22/13).

John 20:28 is not a "single article" sentence. Marc (deliberately) quotes and misapplies GS rule 1. John 20:28 has 2 articles, a THE-NOUN-AND-THE-NOUN (TSKTS) construction.

If the GS rule is anything to go by, (trinitarians swear by GS rule 1 for 1 Pe.1:1), GS rule 6 states in part, 'the second noun expresses a different person, thing, or quality, from the preceding noun... when each of the nouns are preceded by articles'.

Thomas at John 20:28 has 2 persons in view. Context, grammar and the GS rule say so.
---David8318 on 2/24/13


'Sharp didn't explicitly rule on 2 definite articles'- Marc.

Oh but he did! GS rule 6 discusses the rule on 2 def.articles. (TSKTS: 'The-Substantive-Kai (the copulative)-The-Substantive'). Basically, 2 articles, 2 referents'.

Granville Sharp is a 'Rosetta Stone' for trinitarians especially where 2 Peter 1:1 is concerned. GS rule 1 is quoted by Marc on 2/22/13, essentially "1 article, 1 referent". Trinitarians are all over GS rule 1 like a rash with regard to 2Pe.1:1.

However, while trinitarians allow no one any exceptions to GS rule 1 at 2Pe.1:1, they completely deny the 6th GS rule at John 20:28 (as seen in Marc's comment above) and make a convenient exception for themselves for the sake of their doctrine.
---David8318 on 2/24/13


The bible clearly teaches Jesus IS GOD, the GREAT I AM.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13
Genesis 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
Genesis 31:12 And he said,..
Genesis 31:13 I am the God of Bethel,

Malachi 3:1: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."
---francis on 2/24/13


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Warwick (and trinitarianism in general) in his interpretation of John 1:1 contravenes the mandate at Deuteronomy 28:14.

Warwick's theology has 2 Almighty God's at Jo.1:1. 'The Word was with God' AND 'the Word was God'. Warwick has 2 God's at Jo.1:1.

Ruben told us previously, the 2 God's at Jo.1:1... "THEY" are 'equal in nature as Almighty God'.

Deut.28:14, 'you must not... walk after other gods to serve them'. Warwick has at least 2, but claims to worship 3! Perhaps Warwick believes the holyspirit is also Almighty God!? Trinitarianism is synonymous with polytheism.

JW's however believe only one Almighty God- Jehovah.
---David8318 on 2/24/13


The bible clearly teaches Jesus IS GOD, the GREAT I AM.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13


Scott, I have answered your question regarding Colossians 3:24.

The question remains do you follow and serve Jesus?

Please answer the question you are evading: You claim creation was spoken into existence "through" Jesus, as God speaks through prophets, using their voice. The problem with this is Genesis ch. 1 says it was God's voice which spoke to create, not Jesus or the Angel Michael as you say He is. 2 Corinthians 4:6 repeats this 'For God who said "Let light shine out of darkness..."'

So, who spoke creation into existance? Was it God or was it Jesus, as you claim who did the speaking?
---Warwick on 2/24/13


Cluny,Time is inanimate and cannot be "God"!
Asking when time began is like asking where God came from (not aswerable)
I read it in Arius' history,which was attempted to also be hushed.
The superstitious claimed that God was punishing Arius
but use a little common sense,when was the last time you heard of someone's bowels "falling out"? Poison can cause diarrhea but this was a powerful drug!
---1st_cliff on 2/24/13


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Cliff I am definitely saying that before God created time (Genesis 1:3) time did not exist, as God it eternal and eternity is not a measure of time but an absence of time.

Again I ask-as you believe time existed in eternity, how was it measured?

Surely you understand that before the creator spoke creation into existence nothing materialal existed. God indeed exists outside of time, does not eat, sleep nor breathe. God is a Spirit. That is why a body was made for Him, the God man we know as Jesus. Emanuel-God with us.
---Warwick on 2/24/13


\\Cluny, ** Outside of time** is just plain Psychobabble, there's no such thing. Time always was just as God always was!\\

WRONG!

To say that "time always was," is to say that time is God, and not God's creation.

And where did you hear that Arius was poisoned. That's NOT in the earliest church histories, such as Eusebius.
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/24/13


---kathr4453 on 2/24/13
I understand your hesitation. It stems from what we are taught as children.

When we are children we are taught that three wise men came to see Jesus. ( bible does not say how many)
We are taught that the animals came into the ark two by two ( only the unclean animals came in two by two, the clean ones came by sevens)
We are taught that angels are created beings who have wings. Angel simply means messenger of God, be it Jesus the son of God, a created seraphims or cherubims, or a human
2 Samuel 19:27 but my lord the king is as an angel of God: do therefore what is good in thine eyes.

An angel is just a messenger of God

The bible clearly included Jesus as a messenger of God
---francis on 2/24/13


Jesus is identified as the Word in John 1, 1st John 1:1, Revelation 19:13). God is "the Word. Therefore, it is not blasphemous nor is it idolatry or heresy to call Jesus the WORD of God"

In the OT many times it is stated " the word of The Lord came to me....,

This is why John and all the Apostles refer to Jesus as the WORD made flesh, whom John said he handled, touched..1st John. He is the EXPRESS image of God.

He SPOKE the world into existence. Let there be Light, and their was.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13


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"Col 3:24- Mistranslated in the NWT as "slave for the Master Christ." Warwick

Ok. Let's simplify this for Warwick.

Let's remove the NWT and KIT from the equation, since his disdain for all things JW has muddied the proverbial waters.

Warwick claims that the NWT's Col 3:24 is wrong. Let's turn his attention to other (non-JW) translations with the same (or similar) rendering.

Obviously, if the NWT is wrong so are the others.

Prove that these translations are wrong. (Uh oh...no KIT red herring to hide behind):

"Be slaves with Christ for your Master." Knox Bible

"It is Christ, your real master, whom you are serving." God's Word Translation, (See GNT)
---scott on 2/24/13


Jesus is God in the flesh. "I and my Father are one." Jesus came for one thing. He preached for 33 years then He died on the cross to redeem a wicked people. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. the trinity is God...period. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. all are one. Jesus was sinless even after satan tried to kill Him in the garden but Jesus won victory over death. that is a spirit called the comforter. anyone who is born of the Spirit has God living inside of believers.
---shira4368 on 2/24/13


Scott, the JW Kingdom interlinnear at Colossians 3:24 reads "be you slaving to the Lord, Christ."

But your NWT has "slave for the Master Christ. You don't even follow your own interlinear! Is this not so?

Remember this came about as I challenged you because Deuteronomy 28:14 says we must not follow or serve any god. You claim Jesus is "a god", whom you say is the angel Michael. Therefore by Deuteronomy and your "a god" belief you are in contravention of God's command. You brought up the red herring of 'slave' instead of 'serve' suggesting you were not serving Jesus aka Mike the angel, but 'slaving' for him. If you don't follow and serve Jesus you are not Christian!
---Warwick on 2/24/13


Kathr, all I hear from you are more and more questions on the the Divine nature of Jesus Christ and now you ask when was the Holy Spirit begotten. Continuing to make a mockery of the the Son. There is only One Son who is begotten and eternal. The Holy Spirit is not a Son but the very Spirit of God. I had already told you what begotten meant. The same word is used in regards to Isaac in (Heb. 11:17) Who was literally the only begotten of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the promised seed. Jesus Christ was the begotten Son, the only promised Seed from eternity.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/13


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Francis, Jesus is not michael the archangel. Believe me. Hebrews 1 CLEARLY say God NEVER said to any Angel, Sit here at my right hand.

No angel spirit set me free from sin and death. We are begotten sons through Jesus Christ, sons of God, not sons of any angel, creating more angels.

No man can be baptized into an angel, becoming a member of any body of an angel.

And the sabbath was made for man, not angels. You actually believe angels were put under Moses Law too, keeping a sabbath? Those angels who fill the universe are anchored to our 7 day solar system?

Oh the list goes on and on just how bazaar your belief is.
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13


4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Re: scepter. Read Genesis 49.

Francis, believes Michael is returning to rule 1000 years??
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13


1 Timothy 2:4-6

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


So again Francis, you worship angels too, disobeying Colossians 2?
---kathr4453 on 2/24/13


Warwick,**Cliff what is the measure of time in eternity?**
We have the earth's rotation to "measure" our time.
Are you suggesting that before the earth rotated that time did not exist?
God just appeared a few minutes before He started creating???
He was just nowhere standing in a vacuum, suspended??
Jesus said "My father has kept working 'till now and I keep working"(That takes "time")Jn.5.17.
If you don't own a clock, time does not exist, yep!
---1st_cliff on 2/24/13


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"Scott believes God spoke creation into existence "through" Jesus as God speaks "through" prophets." Warwick

No. The discussion was about the Gk. words, en and dia (Eng. "through").

Your comments ignore the simple fact that the comparison of God speaking "through" the prophets vs. "through" Jesus was made, not by me, but by Paul. His inspired words make it clear that God created the universe "through" Jesus.

Hebrews 1:1-2:

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets...but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son...and through whom also he made the universe."
---scott on 2/24/13


--kathr4453 on 2/23/13
The angel which appeared to Mary and Joseph is not defined as being God, but rather the angel (messenger) of the lord. It could have been any of the seraphims or cherubims. They are also angels of the Lord

In Genesis 22:11-12 this Angel is defined as The Lord

Also compare Exodus 14:19 to Exodus 13:21 Where the angel of the lord is defined as God

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Both the Father and the Son are referred to as Lord

No need for Jesus / Michael to have a long discussion with Satan, because God has already rebuked Satan, there's no salvation for him
---francis on 2/23/13


David,

I see you ignore the ramification of your own point because you're not understanding the argument. You claim, without quoting Granville-Sharp's rule, THE-NOUN-AND-NOUN construction means only one person's being described. I granted this but pointed out 1 Peter 1:11 has Michael the Angel (aka Jesus) being called 'the God and Saviour of us', making Michael not a god but THE GOD.

John 20:28 is different as it, as I understand, does not fall under Sharp's rule because Sharp didn't explicitly rule on 2 definite articles. However, my argument is even if he did, the Greek records Thomas saying TO(i.e. auto) Michael the angel (aka Jesus) "The Lord of me and the God of me."

BTW, your logic is still appalling.
---Marc on 2/23/13


Colossians 3:24 is artfully irrelevant / KIT Warwick

Sniff, sniff, sniff...

...There's that familiar smell! Perhaps your favorite appetizer? Red Herring.

A correct English rendering of any (NT) verse is based on the Greek text. You knew that right?

You claimed that the NWT rendering of Col 3:24 is a "mistranslation".

I'm holding you to it in spite of your Red Herrings...

Prove it. Prove that the NWT, Knox, GWT, GNT, etc have not accurately represented the Greek.

You've made a direct accusation and I've responded with an equally direct challenge. Back your claim up. What does the Greek say? I've already given you more than a head start.

Still waiting...and waiting...
---scott on 2/23/13


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Warwick, The only belief I'm defending is my own!
**but in Genesis 1 we do not have God speaking "through" anyone** You don't know that!
Jn.1.3 says "through him (Logos) all things were made"
Do we believe you or John?

Because the Genesis account does not say exactly what John said is understandable seeing that no one knows "exactly" who wrote Genesis,there were no witnesses to this "speaking" or any evidence that there was a written language then!(we had this discussion before) NO one knows which language was spoken pre-flood!
So get off the samantics and take John's word for it!
---1st_cliff on 2/23/13


Cliff, what is the measure of time in eternity?
---Warwick on 2/23/13


Cliff, remember I posed this question to Scott who is unwilling to give an answer. But you, hale fellow, have come to his aid! You may have left the JW's but you haven't got far away have you! Maybe a trial separation rather than a divorce?

Scott believes God spoke creation into existence "through" Jesus as God speaks "through" prophets. But in Genesis 1 we do not have God speaking "through" anyone. But as you point out "let us make man in our image" is good evidence for the Trinity. However my point is that Genesis says God spoke creation into existence but Scott would have us believe it was Jesus speaking. Unless the Trinity is reality it cannot be both, so who spoke creation into existence?
---Warwick on 2/23/13


Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.


Francis, the only problem here is that this same Angel of The Lord, you say is Jesus, I mean Michael-Jesus, appeared to Joseph ,Mary and has Jesus with them.

Even Jesus Christ Himself said He left Glory and came to earth. Can't be in two places at once.

And in Jude...Michael says to Satan...The Lord rebuke you, after he said he personally would not bring a railing accusation against satan.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


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Joh_8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered,
Ye neither know me, nor my Father: (if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.)

Joh_14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and (from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.)

Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, (and yet hast thou not known me,) Philip? (he that hath seen me hath seen the Father,) and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh_16:3 And these things will they do unto you, (because they have not known the Father, nor me.)

Some people just kill me.
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/23/13


Well Markv, I didn't give the question it's title, so don't let that mislead you into thinking I don't know who Jesus is.

But please show too where the Holy Spirit was also generated, that is birthed begotten by God ? Remember the Holy Spirit is also eternal.

We see in scripture begotten ...the exact word in greek, is used inJohn 3, as Born Again. Yet we know Jesus was never Born Again, or are you suggesting He was...once in eternity past, and again in Bethlehem ?

So before YOU claim to be all knowing, please do your homework. You actually might learn something FROM GOD and not man.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


'According to your spin on John 20:28'- Marc.

Absolutely, you cannot spin both ways at the same time!

I agree, the sentence construction THE-NOUN-AND-NOUN, denotes 1 person in view. Trinitarians insist on applying this Greek convention at 1 Pe.1:11 and Titus 2:13 without exception, insisting only 1 person is in view because only 1 article is used for both nouns.

However, THE-NOUN-AND-THE-NOUN, ('THE Lord of me and THE God of me') construction is completely different to the 1 person construction (THE-NOUN-AND-NOUN) you claim is at 1Pe.1:11 and Titus 2:13, and yet you want BOTH constructions to mean only one person is in view!

Well I am sorry Marc to spoil the parade, but you can't spin it both ways!
---David8318 on 2/23/13


1: Jesus is THE ANGEL OF THE LORD /GOD Genesis 22:11-12

2: Jesus is the Image of the Father Colossians 1:15 ( MICHAEL means who is like God)

3: Jesus is the creator John 1:1-4( Not being himself created) of all the seraphims and cherubims.

4: Jesus' voice will raise the dead John 5:28

5: The Archangel's voice will raise the dead: 1 Thess 4:16

6: Jesus is in charge of the armies of God Joshua 5:14

7: Michael is in charge of the Lord's Army: Revelation 12:7

8: Jesus is the Chief messenger of God: Hebrews 1:2

Michael: Colossians 1:15
Arch: John 1:1-4
Angel: Hebrews 1:2

Jesus is the chief messenger of God who is like the father
---francis on 2/23/13


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"Would all you JW's please take YOUR argument somewhere else..." kathr4453

Well my snarky friend, just a little heads up, no Witnesses have posted on this thread...at least until now.
---scott on 2/23/13


Cluny, ** Outside of time** is just plain Psychobabble, there's no such thing. Time always was just as God always was!
**And Arius died by flushing himself inside out down a toilet**
Arius was murdered (poisoned) to silence him ,why? to keep the truth hidden! By your comments, the scheme worked!
No one can read his writings (who knows, maybe even inspired) because Constantine and his gang of thugs, burned them!
---1st_cliff on 2/23/13


I like your answer Cluny!
And Jan's

The Bible says that the Word BECAME flesh.
So before Jesus became flesh and the only begotten (means to be born of a woman)
He was the Word.
The Word was with God in the beginning. John 1:1 says so.
So, Jesus as we know him in the flesh was not a son as we see it until he was born of a woman.
Jesus is the Word of God become flesh the only begotten of the Father, God.
The eternal son thing is not true. Before he become the son of God he was the WORD of God.
In the beginning with God.
Bible says "Let US make man in OUR image"
Not in my image. I find it very interesting that God refers to himself as "Us" in the beginning of Genesis.
---g on 2/23/13


Kathr, before you start twisting the Divine nature of the Son, just remember that all cultist like David and Scott always attack the incarnation of Jesus Christ by claiming He is not eternal. If the Son is not eternal, He is not God, for only God is eternal. If you do, you do not do it out of ignornance but do it knowing full well that the Son is eternal, not a created Son, and you have been told that many times. It is better for you not to question His Deity then to make a mockery of Him. If you do not know, leave it along. Don't preach what you do not know as you do Calvinism and other doctrines you claim to know but don't.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/13


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\\Jesus is the only begotten son by supernatural means in Mary's womb.\\

* W * R * O * N * G *

The Logos was the Only-begotten Son in eternity BEFORE His incarnation in the womb of the virgin Mary and given the human name Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/13


Awesome jan4378, great answer.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


One day, David, Jehovah's False Witnesses, and all neo-Arians will indeed learn that HE is JEHOVAH, just as Christians have always confessed.

||Wherever there are father and son, there was a time when He was not a Father. Not until a person has a son/daughter can he become a father.||

The problem with this statement is that it puts God in time, and God is ETERNAL, which means OUTSIDE of time.

And Arius died by flushing himself inside out down a toilet.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/23/13


And if Jesus was Michael the Archangel!
How can he speak at all?

I mean you would have had to exist already.
How can you speak if you dont exist?
Nothing existed before God!

So, whatever you think you heard it was God speaking.
Not Michael the Archangel or is now Michael the Archangel, God?
And if you can make him Christ, why not just make him God?

Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, (durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.)

No! He is not God!
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/23/13


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Well, I definitely know for a fact Michael is not Jesus. And that God did not BEGET Angels. He CREATED Angels, so sorry, but those who want to make Jesus out to be Michael, who certainly was not eternal with God from the BEGINNING, ( seeing with God ther is no BEGINNING or end), would all you JW's please take YOUR argument somewhere else or start another blog like :

" How many Angels did God CREATE, and since Angels don't have blood, and can come in the form of a man-( see story of Lot), a virgin birth was not even necessary to begin with".

That would be interesting to read.

But that's not what I'm asking here.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


Lets remember too, ANGELS fell, SINNED, and have the capacity to sin and rebel against God, therefore NO ANGEL could ever redeem man from sin, where man after redemption will be placed in a position ABOVE THE ANGELS! Who will one day JUDGE the Angels.

What Angel could ever bring you into a position IN HIM, to end up ABOVE him.
---kathr4453 on 2/23/13


David,

As a corollary of John 20:28's using 2 articles, you argue if Thomas had only used 1 article then Thomas would be addressing Jesus as both God and Lord.

Using your rule, how do you then explain 2Peter 1:1 which has 1 article preceding the first noun and none before the second, both separated by 'kai'. Jesus here is called "the God of us and Saviour". According to your spin on John 20:28 JWs should be calling Jesus "our God". But you don't, do you!

I'll wait for your answer.
---Marc on 2/23/13


Jesus is the only begotten son by supernatural means in Mary's womb.
The word of prophecy concerning Jesus had been spoken by the prophets and confirmed by the Angel to Mary.

She believed and the accumulative prophecies became flesh in her womb.

In a similar fashion everyone who hears the gospel concerning salvation are supernaturally born again. Making Jesus the firstborn of many brethren. We are all begotten of God through him.
---jan4378 on 2/23/13


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Warwick, Let me put this in simpler terms:
In the year 1492 ce it is said that Christopher Columbus discovered America.
There were with him 3 ships full of people,yet it is common practice to state that "he", Columbus, was the discoverer.Did he have help?
You're saying that ho Theos "alone" created,then turn around and say "Well the bible says "Let Us" make man in "our" image" to try to prove trinity!

So, was it ho Theos "alone" or ho theos and company that spoke all things into existance???
---1st_cliff on 2/23/13


David,

You believe the Father through Michael the angel created the universe (see Col. 1). You then claim John calls Michael the angel a god. Therefore, you have 2 gods (count them!) and so there must be 2 creators, one a God, the other an angel/god. Mate, belief in the existence of more than 1 god is polytheism.

Please don't confuse your lack of knowledge concerning the Trinity with your misunderstanding that we Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. You unambiguously have 1 big God and another small god, who is an angel, creating the universe. That's polytheism!
---Marc on 2/22/13


Cliff, as is common, you have either misunderstood the question or attempted to evade answering the question as posed.

Throughout Genesis ch. 1 it is written that God spoke creation into existence. For example 1:3 'And God said "Let there be light." Now who is this God? Mark (13:19 and elswhere in the NT) says it was created by God-ho Theos. If what you say is true it cannot have been made by God saying, for example "let there be light" because Scott (to whom I addressed the question) says that God's word of creation were spoken by Jesus, Michael the Archangel as He claims Jesus to be.

How can Jesus speak God's creative words if, as Genesis says, the words were spoken by God, not "through" anyone?
---Warwick on 2/22/13


In case you have read your early scriptures, you might have noticed how in all those genealogies it says each father "begot" his son. Nowhere does it say any human father ever "created" his son. So, after reading all those genealogies, by now you might be ready to understand what it means that Jesus is "begotten" by His Father . . . therefore not created.

And Jesus was here before Mary. So, our Father did not "beget" Jesus by means of Mary. Jesus said this plainly, Himself > "before Abraham was, I AM." (in John 8:58)

By the way, the son of a human father is human. Jesus is the Son of God, not a created human like Mary.
---willie_c: on 2/22/13


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1. God is Father. God is Son. God is Holy Spirit: the GODHEAD.

2. God is One "what" (GODHEAD) & Three "whos" (co-equal Supreme Beings with self determined & distinctly different, agreed upon, roles): the TRINITY.

- The Father isn't the Son or Holy Spirit.
- The Son isn't the Father or Holy Spirit.
- The Holy Spirit isn't the Father or Son.
- Father, Son & Holy Spirit are co-equally GOD!

3. God the Son (WORD), at the pleasure of God the Father, via God the Holy Spirit, became flesh (was born a creature & yet remained God the Creator: Emmanuel)! Jesus lived amongst us, lived humanly without sinning. He then paid the price for our deliverance & salvation from sin.
---Leon on 2/22/13


John 8:58
Jesus answered, Before Abraham was born, I am!

You ask, "Or is he begotten by a union of the Father and Mary?"

In the spirit realm Jesus existed before Mary and all was made through Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NIV)
and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Cor 8:6 (NET) Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

1 Cor 8:6 (NRSVA) Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
---Bike on 2/22/13


Scott & David,

Please explain how the Father can create through the creature Michael the angel. Did Michael receive a how-to manual, and then Michael spoke the material world into existence and then ordered it? What does 'through' actually mean in this context? How is it distinguishable from 'by'?

Truly, if you can explain that, demonstrating how that is possible, setting out what exactly happened, free of analogies, then I'll become a JW, today. Serious!
---Marc on 2/22/13


David,

Re John 20:28, I believe you have misinterpreted Granville Sharp's rule: "When a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai...they have the same referent."

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule says nothing about when there is more than one article. Thus, by arguing so, you've committed a formal logical fallacy, namely, Denying the Antecedent. That is, if P, then Q, we can only say P therefore Q (or 'not Q, therefore not P'). You've tried to illogically conclude that 'if not P, therefore not Q'. Zero marks in a logic exam.

David, five years at university studying Philosophy and Religion (and a little Classic Greek!) does give you some knowledge.
---Marc on 2/22/13


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Warwick, **Therefore how can you claim creation was effected "through" Jesus?**
John 1.1 says "through Him (the Logos) all things were made" without Him nothing was made that was made"
Do you need a Doctor of Divinity to explain that?
Two persons are being mentioned here God (ho Theos) and the Logos (Theos)!
---1st_cliff on 2/22/13


Revelation 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Did the begotten Son have blood before his incarnation?
Ok, The FIRST begotten from the dead. Then Colossians tells us, the First Born from the Dead that He might have the pre_eminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell.

So if Jesus were begotten before his incarnation, and the First begotten from the dead, ( you say begotten has nothing to do with His being made flesh) are you saying then GOD DIED? Or the WORD who is God made Flesh died and was raised from the dead?
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


\\God the Father is pure spirit thus He cannot relate to humans. \\ This is not Christianity but mahometanism. Furthermore, to say that an omnipotent God cannot do aomething or anything is absolute heresy. Gory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/13


And it says Jesus is the first begotten from the dead. Jesus is his human name. It doesn't say the eternal son is the first begotten from the dead. Or the ONLY BEGOTTEN, from the dead, as we know He is the Only begotten Son.

Saying the first, would indicate there are more begotten's to follow.

Are there more begotten's to follow ?
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13


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kathr, what a great question!!!

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God! - John 3:16
Php2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

1John5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Isa9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Notice above it doesn't say unto us a son is born. It says a son is given. For God to give his Son he had to have a son to give. Christ is the eternal Son of God, equal with God, and is God.
---trey on 2/22/13


Kath Hebrews 1 says Jesus, as to His spirit is God (God is Spirit), exact representation of God's being, He who sustains all things by His powerful word. God calls His Son God, vs8. God says the Son made earth and heaven vs. 10. Therefore the Son is Creator God.

God told Him "sit at my right hand" the position of absolute power and equality, never said to any angel vs.13.

In Ch. 10.5 the Son of God, coming Messiah says "a body you prepared for me." This is the Son of Man, human, born of Mary, made pregnant via the Holy Spirit, Matthew 1:18.

Hebrrews ch.2 talks of His humanity vs. 14.

The Lord Jesus Christ is fully God, fully man.
---Warwick on 2/22/13


is He the "only begotten Son" in a literal sense - begotten by a union of the Father and Mary?
---kathr4453 on 2/22/13
YES YES YES. He is the only flesh and blood person to be born ( openeth the matrix) which is a union of the spirit of God and Mary or any other female

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
---francis on 2/22/13


Scott, you claim God created "through" Jesus, likening it to a prophet "through" whom God speaks. How can this be, as Genesis ch.1 records it was God Himself who directly spoke everything into existence. Mark 13:19 confirms God (ho Theos) is the Creator. There is no hint that God used any agent to create through. In reality Scripture says God did it directly. Therefore how can you claim creation was effected "through" Jesus?
---Warwick on 2/22/13


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We got to be right on somethings. We can't be right on all things. A popular creed says "BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE". Gen 1:26 says, "LET US make for OURSELVES in OUR image." Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation. Philippians 2:6 Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. John 14:28 If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Mt 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Heb 1:2 He has spoken to us by his Son through whom he made the universe. John 1:3 Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made.
---Born on 2/22/13


God the Father is pure spirit thus He cannot relate to humans. What John is saying here is that "The Son of God" is who we have a relationship with. So in Exodus God comes down to mount that is the Son of God, Isaiah Ch6, Joshua meets Lord of the heavenly armies, burning bush in Exodus and others is the Son of God bring the work of the Father to the world.
Who is the "Son of God." The Son of God is not a biological (young vs old)position but more of an authoritative position. John says later "I [Jesus] and the Father are one" The Father has sent me, I do only what I see the Father do. Jesus is the human manifestation of the Son of God to do the Fathers will.
---Scott1 on 2/22/13


The phrase "only begotten Son" does NOT refer to His incarnation and human birth from the womb of the Virgin Mary.

||Or is He the "only begotten Son" in a literal sense - begotten by a union of the Father and Mary?||

This is the teaching of the mormonoid mutants from Kolob, which is NOT Christianity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/22/13


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