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Obedient To Be Heavenbound

Does our obedience to God's laws contribute anything to our justification?

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 ---e.lee7537 on 2/24/13
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Just show me where he went to heaven.
francis

Wow that's hard, because:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

It would be helpful, if you could show me where Christ left heaven.
I don't think God ever left heaven, he just sent his word.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/5/13


//early SDA being uneducated MEANS NOTHING: Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John

Stupid and unintelligent remark! The Apostles had the worlds foremost Teacher unlike the founders of Adventism.

//Reading a million commentaries MEANS NOTHING.

If one reads the commentaries written by those the Lord has called into the ministry of the church, ones may gain much. In that you are clearly not wise!

//Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:
. ---
The commandments we are to obey are those found in the New Covenant. However, the righteous live by faith in Gods Spirit - an entity that few Adventists have any experience with.
---e.lee7537 on 3/5/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/4/13
early SDA being uneducated MEANS NOTHING: Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Reading a million commentaries MEANS NOTHING.
Eccl 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: for this is the whole duty of man.
---francis on 3/5/13


francis//'You spend too much time in commentaries, not enough time reading the bible
---
I'm sorry but I have only read the Bible from cover to cover some 20 times and in 15 different versions, plus taking courses in it over these 50 years. So I believe I have a good grasp as to what it says. And that is why I am not an Adventist.

As for Bible commentaries, many of the better ones were written by those who not only knew the Bible well but also its Author. Sorry you are taught not to take advantage of what they have learned.

Bear in mind that nearly all the Adventist pioneers were simply uneducated dirt farmers who knew very little of the Bible or its Author.
---e.lee7537 on 3/4/13


Seg, scripture says it was a "vision" not a reality!
---1st_cliff on 3/4/13




---TheSeg on 3/4/13
Let's just end this with you showing me where at the transfiguration Jesus went to heaven

That is how we must settle it

just show me where he went to heaven
---francis on 3/5/13


francis the way you're looking at it makes Luke a liar!

He saying Christ when to pray, taking them with him.
And Luk_9:29 And as he prayed it happen!
Luk_9:30,Luk 9:31 Moses and Elias appeared.

Luk_9:32 But Peter and they that were with him (were sleeping!)
and when they (woke up,) then (they saw his glory, and the two men with him.)

After this Luk_9:33 they departed, and Peter said let's make three tabernacles
Luk_9:34 Then the cloud and God speaking!

They were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty!
But they didn't see it happen, they saw it after it happen. Fact!

You're saying they saw it happen, that their eye never closed!
That's not what Luke is saying. They were sleeping when it happen!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/4/13


---TheSeg on 3/4/13
a cloud overshadowed them, but Christ was finsihed talking with Moses and Elijah at this time, and was back again with his disciples, speaking with them

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Matthew 17:5 While he( peter) yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty
---francis on 3/4/13


Luk_9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk_9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk_9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk_9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Luk_9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep:
(and when they were awake,) (they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.)

Not that it makes a difference to me!
But you checked all the scriptures.
I guess not!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/4/13


Does our obedience to God's laws contribute anything to our justification?
---e.lee7537 on 2/24/13

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

---e.lee7537 you see OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS and it does not answer the question "Does our obedience to God's laws contribute anything to our justification?"

You spend too much time in commentaries, not enough time reading the bible
---francis on 3/4/13




francis//How does this text of scripture answer the blog question?
---
It does not! Those that truly believe are justified once and only once. And unlike the Roman Church belief one does not lose justification and has to do penance and the other sacraments to restore justification.

---e.lee7537 on 3/4/13


---TheSeg on 3/4/13
a cloud overshadowed them, but Christ was finsihed talking with Moses and Elijah at this time, and was back again with his disciples, speaking with them

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Matthew 17:5 While he( peter) yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty
---francis on 3/4/13


Well theseg, I checked all the scriptures concerning this transfiguration
francis

Why was Enoch translated?
Heb_11:5 testimony,(that he pleased God.)
Knowing! Enoch did not see death!

But Christ, Jesus never left their sight. Interesting!
Mat_17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:
in whom (I am well pleased)
Mat_17:6 they fell on their face
Mar_9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them
This is my beloved Son
Luk_9:32 they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory
Luk_9:34 there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud

So Christ never left their sight. Says you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/4/13


Thank you brother Mark_V. I am humbled by your comments. Lord bless you dear brother. You know I am a big fan of yours. Keep up the faith!!!
---trey on 3/3/13


Does our obedience to God's laws contribute anything to our justification?
---e.lee7537 on 2/24/13

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

How does this text of scripture answer the blog question?
---francis on 3/3/13


Bro. Trey, that was a great answer you gave francis and Shira. Many examples are given Jesus rose from the dead in a glorified body. Just as He rose again, so will we when the Lord comes at the Second Coming, we too will receive a glorified body prepared for heaven. He rose again here on earth, and did eat, did go into rooms without anyone opening the door.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/13


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So It stands to reason that Moses, and ELijah,( even ENoch) could appeared with Jesus since they were in heaven before Jesus was born
God, francis!

And you're absolutely correct they were resurrected before Jesus was born!
1Co_15:50, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
That's because Christ was never born, Jesus was!

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.
francis this is Christ talking!

Put it this way
Jesus was born a man and Christ had always been with God!
Christ is God there is no other, there is only one God
He is the word and the Word was God.
Three glorified bodies!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/2/13


--TheSeg on 3/2/13
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:2 and he was transfigured before them
And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow, And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

2 Peter 1:16 we..were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory,

well theseg, I checked all the scriptures concerning this transfiguration, seems that Jesus was transfigued, but not tralslated.

Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated

If you believe Matthew, Mark and Pater, Jesus never left thier sight, did not go to heaven at that time
---francis on 3/2/13


---TheSeg on 3/2/13
ELIJAH NEVER DIED:
2 Kings 2:11 behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

MOSES WAS RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS BIRTH:
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,..

So It stands to reason that Moses, and ELijah,( even ENoch) could appeared with Jesus since they were in heaven before Jesus was born
---francis on 3/2/13


Trey very well said, thanks for that too.

The last time, francis!
When Christ was up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Was he in his glorified body or did they just dream it?
As you said, According to Jesus he had not gone to see the father.
You see, how easy this can this be?

You don't believe it but not because it's not true.
It's just because you don't want to at this point in time!

May God bless you, francis
You too Trey thanks very helpful, right on time!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/2/13


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--TheSeg on 3/2/13
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus had gone to be with the father why would he have said to Mary that he had not gone to be with the father?

read the prophesy
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again

1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
---francis on 3/2/13


---shira4368 Was Jesus in the Spirit when he ate the fish or in the body?????
---new_reader on 3/2/13


---shira4368 on 3/2/13
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Maybe you should use the word " glorified body," rather than spiritual.

---TheSeg on 3/2/13
Christ did not take him to paradise with him that day, since christ himself did not go to paradise that day. It was on that very day, that Christ promised him salvation


francis, your interpretation of (Luke 23:46) is wrong. Nowhere are we told He gave up the Ghost.
---MARK_V 3/2/13
IDIOT!!!!

Luke 23:46 when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
---francis on 3/2/13


shira4368
Christ did enter the room with the doors closed.
But he said:
Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You said:
When Jesus arose from the grave, his flesh did not arise. His Spiritual body arose.
Please explain what you mean.
Thanks! Peace
---TheSeg on 3/2/13


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Shira and Francis, you are both wrong. When Christ died upon the cross he told us where he was going: #1 "This day shall ye be with me in Paradise (the third heaven/ the abode of God)" #2 "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Next we see his body placed in the tomb. The the first day of the week (the Lord's day) three of the female disciples come to the tomb to prepare the body. (Watch this Shira) but the body was not there. Later Mary saw him in the garden and "clung" to him. Later in the upper room he appears to his disciples and tells them to "handle me" meaning his body was glorified. In his glorified body he could travel through walls, and materialize. He has a body!
---trey on 3/2/13


Shira4368,

Jesus did in fact rise in His flesh.

In 1Corinthians 15:35-44
But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body...?
It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Look at all the contrasts not just one

Natural means sin wrecked while spiritual means not sin wrecked

Also Luke 24:39
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
---James_L on 3/2/13


francis, when Jesus arose from the grave, his flesh did not arise. His Spiritual body arose. how do you think Jesus went into the room with the door shut after His resurectson. He assended into heaven as a Spirit. If He had been human, that would not have been possible.
---shira4368 on 3/2/13


But, just so no one is confused, about what I'm saying! When The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit said I am the first and the last.
Yes, all said it. The Lord our God is one God!
Does anyone here think this means, I have a beginning and an end?
Well, that would mean, I am! Period!
No, beginning and no end!

So, why do you insist on putting God in time?
Why do I say this, well in Gen_32:24.
Jacob wrestled with a man!

A man who change his name to Israel, Gen_32:28!
God is a Spirit, The Holy Ghost is also Spirit.
Who's the only one left, who could be called God, Gen_32:30!

But no, right! Christ was not yet born!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/2/13


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Your right francis, Christ lie to him. Wow!
So, because you can't understand the times or the seasons, God had put under him. Let not believe anything the bible said.

What I find funny is how I can believe something you don't.
Why do you think that is saint francis?
I am, also sure! Even if I told you what I believe.
You would just say, No! That's impossible.

So, I am just going to leave you with your sainthood.
Because for you there is no other, answer!
At least not one that's has been given to you.
There is just no way this could all be true, right!

I also want to thank you for your time.
As always, may God keep you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/2/13


francis, your interpretation of (Luke 23:46) is wrong. Nowhere are we told He gave up the Ghost. In Matthew we are told ghost but not the Holy Ghost, but the spirit of man.
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into You hands I commit My spirit"
No Holy Ghost there. Did you not know that Christ in His humanity had a soul and a spirit like all human beings? That is the spirit He gave up, His human spirit. He never stopped being God.
The fact that He possessed a human rational soul and spirit is found in (Matt. 26:38) "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" And spirit,
" When Jesus had thus said, He was troubled in the spirit" (John 13:21).
---Mark_V. on 3/2/13


---TheSeg on 3/1/13
lets examine what happened that day:

Luke 23:43 Jesus said ..To day shalt thou be with me in paradise...And when Jesus said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:.. he gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus... and laid it in a sepulchre...

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father:, I ascend unto my Father,

The Spirit went to God who gave it, the body into a grave. According to Jesus he had not gone to see the father. It ws 3 days later that Jesus went to paradise.
Neither thief nor Jesus wet to paradise that day.
Thief promised savation that day
---francis on 3/2/13


Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Again believe what you wish.
God bless
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/1/13


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---TheSeg on 3/1/13
now place everythng you just sai din the context of the thief on the cross.

The thief was not resurrected
The thief waas on the cross AFTER jesus said to " go and tell John." no mater what they told John, no matter how many people they told John Jesus had resurrected, the thief was not among them

The problem with your post is CONTEXT and DOCTRINE

but lets deal with the context part first

the is no context in whcih teh thief on the cross was resurrcted
---francis on 3/1/13


I gave you, Go tell John!
Because you believe all the dead are in graves.
Not according to scripture, these are things the Lord did and were witness.
Not my words.

What's this say?
And came out of the graves (after his resurrection!)
Again not my words!

Ask yourself, is Jesus Christ the resurrection?
You know, you and Martha believe the same things.
"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection (at the last day")

That's when Christ told her, I am the resurrection, and the life!
He wasn't dead yet right. Yet he raises Lazarus and others!
But wait, you believe Lazarus and the others had a second death.
Well, many Jews saw and believed!
Some went their ways. Sad right!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/1/13


Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13
Take the time to read you post. Check your CONTEXT and DOCTRINE

1: Go and tell John.... the thief was not yet dead or on the cross so he would not have been raused so your CONTEXT is out of wack here

2: Because the thief was still on the cross when the graves opened and the dead arose, we can be 100% sure that he did not come from the grave at that time

3: Jesus himself has not yet assended to the father on the day he died, so the thief could not have been with him in paradise

So where is he asleep in the lord await the resurrection
---francis on 3/1/13


The thief was still on the cross when this happened.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

So he is in his grave awaiting the first resurrection. Says you!
and the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
Mat_27:53!

Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Are you offended?
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13


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---TheSeg on 2/28/13
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

The thief was still on the cross when this happened.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So he is in his grave awaiting the first resurrection

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
---francis on 2/28/13


Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the daylong, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God keep you
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13


Here are reason given why people will be keep out of the kingdom:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these], Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So yes obedience is required


Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
---francis on 2/28/13


So then tell me Francis, there is the thief is right now?
In paradise with Christ! Or pushing up daisy?

Fact is no one can say for sure whether this thief was or was not baptized
Francis

He was baptized with the Holy Spirit right on the cross!
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:
(Which he did, Mat_27:44. Not baptized!)

and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(Luk_23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord!
Baptized!)

Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13


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You don't believe he's in paradise with Christ, right?
I'm kicking myself, you don't believe Christ.
You believe, saint francis!
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13

I believe Christ
I do not believe you

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
---francis on 2/28/13


Trey,

I agree with your last post

Matt 7:22-23 proves that our works can give a false assurance

As for James 2:12, he says plainly that we will be judged by the law of liberty and uses the mention of that judgment as a springboard into his argument that works are a necessary component of mature faith.

In 2:14, he is asking a rhetorical question - can faith alone save us? The answer is NO.

But we must ask - save us from what?

The only thing in the context that we could possibly look to be saved from is the shame that some will suffer at this judgment he had just mentioned.

Paul mentioned it too - 1Cor 3:14-15 our works will be tested
---James_L on 2/28/13


Strongaxe, you made a comment defending free will,
"If you truly believe that man has no free will, why bother with these blogs at all, since clearly nothing anyone says here will influence anyone else's salvation or relationship with God in the slightest?"
We are here freely to answer questions, but our will is not free, it is bias, it wants to do the will of God. Why? Because we are commanded to preach the gospel Truth. And also to teach the believer how he was saved. If he is a believer, he will understand it because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to him.
If my will is to be here and bring hate and evil as some do, then my will would be in bondage to sin, and not free.
Our wills are always bias, never free.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/13


Ok francis, sorry to many things!

I don't have to prove to you the things not in the bible.
Like me believing everyone saved.

The bible does not say he was baptized or even if he was a Jew.
You want to believe them, fine. But they're not written!

But first and foremost, he was a thief therefore not obedient!
I believe he was saved right there on that cross, by Christ.
But you can't believe this.

You can't believe the words Christ told him, right there on the cross, can you? Luk_23:43 Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You don't believe he's in paradise with Christ, right?
I'm kicking myself, you don't believe Christ.
You believe, saint francis!
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/28/13


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James_L,

Matt 7:22 and 23 Christ is speaking of the last day at the judgement. He is stating that there will be many who are relying on their works for their salvation, and he will respond to them "I never knew you" meaning he has no intimate knowledge of them. They are not his sheep. They never had a work of grace in their hearts.

You mention James 2:12, the "law of liberty". To understand this law we must understand James chapter 1 and specifically verses 19-27. The law of liberty sets us free, free from the penalty of eternal seperation of God due to sin. It is the same as the law of faith - Rom 3:27.

James, we are saved by the grace of God and not by our works! - Eph 2:8
---trey on 2/27/13


---TheSeg on 2/27/13
Do you even read your own post?

Take time to read your own post and give it thought before you click send
---francis on 2/27/13


The first (2:12)...does not say you are saved and then lose salvation.\\
---Mark V

I never claimes that anyone can going to lose their "salvation" if you mean our justification, redemption, etc. It is not possible to lose that

A believer can suffer loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ when his work is burned up (1Cor 3:14-15) but he himself will be saved.


\\The second (James 3:1) is...for the (usaved) unbeliever...and for the saved believers when he is rewarded...\\
---Mark V

This passage offers nothing for the "unsaved". It is strictly a passage aimed at the brethren. The believers' reward judgment is the only context
---James_L on 2/27/13


francis, I can say this for sure!

The bible does not say he was baptized. The bible does not make clear even if he was a Jew.
If you want to believe he was both of these things, again that's up to you.
I am assuming you are talking about water!

Because he was baptized, he was obedience?
He wasn't obedient, he was a thief!
You can't change this!

The difference
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, Christ!

For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Had you asked was he baptized with the Holy Ghost?
1Co_12:3

Have a great day!
Love, TheSeg
---TheSeg on 2/27/13


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---TheSeg on 2/27/13
If you have a passage that gaurantees that the thief on the cross was not baptized by Jesus disciples or by John then post it and stop your silly posts.

fact is no one can say for sure whether this thief was or was not baptized
---francis on 2/27/13


Harvesters???

Luke 10:1 "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest."
Luke 10:7 "And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house."
---Nana on 2/27/13


James L, you said and gave,

"James TWICE mentioned a believer's future judgment (2:12, 3:1). Do you deny this ??"
The first is teaching that judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy." If you do not show mercy to others, you must not be saved. It does not say you are saved and then lose salvation.
The second (James 3:10) is teaching the brethren that not everyone is called to be a teacher (master ) but if they teach the gospel they will be judge stricter, for the (usaved) unbeliever false teacher, at the second coming, (jude 14,15) and for the saved believers when he is rewarded before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/13


What's silly is how you call yourself a saint, but cant believe the simple things given of God!

Well then can you give a list of the names of those baptized by John, or Jesus disciples?
francis on 2/26/13
You must mean those baptized by God!
Mat_21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
It's hard to believe that God would just give you something. Just like that!

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ps. I thought it was funny.
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/27/13


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\\...Let both grow together until the harvest...\\
---Nana on 2/26/13

Jesus never said that we will know, but that the harvesters will, and we are not the harvesters.


\\We see his faith by his works.\\
---Trey

Matt 7:22-23
many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not...do many mighty works in your name?' And I will say...I never knew you

They had plenty of works that WE would see. But no faith


\\aka: justification based upon the blood of Christ.\\
---trey on 2/26/13

That's not what James was talking about. But to undertstand this, you must understand the context.

James TWICE mentioned a believer's future judgment (2:12, 3:1).

Do you deny this ??
---James_L on 2/27/13


--James_L on 2/26/13
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

You mean he was asking the other thief if the other thief did not respect God, but he himself did not respect God?

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

He knew that Jesus was Lord and could save him from the pentaly of a state crime, ( not nessesarily any of the ten commandments) He is not asking to be taken off the cross, but rather to be in the kingdom with Jesus. And you do not think that this is salvation?
---francis on 2/27/13


Mt27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

So both thieves were mocking him.

Luke23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The thief on the cross was born again without hearing the gospel! His spirit did hear the voice of the Great Shepherd!

John10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

He didn't need baptism or works to be saved, he needed the grace of God! His eyes were opened and instead of seeing a man bruised and bleeding he saw his Saviour!

1Tim1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
---trey on 2/27/13


YES. Those who love much are forgiven much. Those who love little are forgiven little. Her many sins were forgiven because she loved much. You love me, obey what I command, says Jesus. By grace we are saved, but not by grace alone. By faith we are saved, but not by faith alone. The proof is in the pudding. Our works should follow our faith. We will be recognized by our fruit. Thus only a remnant is saved. I do not think I am part in the remnant. Perfect love casts out fear. Love God with all your heart. Love your enemies, your neighbor, your spouse. WHO OBEYS the command to love? ONLY A REMNANT. Be perfect as I am perfect. BE HOLY. I think professing Christ is license to sin. Modern global teaching. Love Jesus and do what you feel.
---born4883 on 2/27/13


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The Seg,
that was HILARIOUS !!


Francis,
#1 & 2 the thief was a commandment breaker, which should prove to you that he wasn't a God-fearing man. That is, after all, your mantra.

#3, Agree, but not in some sort of ritualistic, fundamentalist sort of way.

#4, he did NOT ask Jesus to save him. He asked to be remembered


\\...this man who was the only one who BELIEVED....could not have been baptized by John or someone else? \\
---francis

Possible. But, what's more likely is that he was taught the scriptures as a child - Deut 6:9

and that he went his own way - Isaiah 53:6

and that when he was older it all came back to him - Proverbs 22:6
---James_L on 2/26/13


"We have no list of who john or Jesus disciples baptized. This thief may have been baptized by Jonh, jesus disciples, or someone else" francis

If there's no list, why speculate? Aren't you adding on to the Word? You speculate is because you have been cornered into giving evidence that to enter into God's kingdom, one has to be obedient - which in the case of the thief is not true.

"yet he belives in Jesus as the messiah"

And how and why did he believe? Isn't it because he received the "gift of faith from God"? "But without faith it is impossible to please him..." It's because of your love for the "free-will" that you are blinded about grace.
---christan on 2/26/13


"Also, Jesus taught that there will be wheat and tares together. His clear teaching is that we cannot know a believer by externals."

I've never seen any such 'clear teaching' James.

In a parable Jesus said, "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (Matthew 13:30)
Never was there any doubt about which was the wheat and which the tares.
---Nana on 2/26/13


James_L,
James2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James_L, we are not justified by our works before God. Our best works of righteousness are as filthy rags before the perfect and holy Lord. Isa 64

Here we see that Abraham's works are done in faith. We see his faith by his works. We know faith is a fruit of the Spirit. For there to be fruit there has to be a tree, in other words the Holy Spirit has to have done a work (aka: washing the sinner with the blood of Christ, aka: justification based upon the blood of Christ.) To understand this you have to understand the Everlasting Covenant of Grace.
---trey on 2/26/13


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---TheSeg on 2/26/13
You are not even funny just silly

what i can tell from this passage:
Luke 23:40 -Luke 23:41

1: The thief was a God fearing man
2: He committed a crime against the state for which he was being exicuted
3: He acknowledged his sin before Jesus
4: He called Jesus Lord, and asked that Jesus would save him

Now, do you think that this man who was the only one who BELIEVED that Jesus 1: Was Lord, 2: had the power to save him, 3: would die, rise again, and inhetit a kingdom, could not have been baptized by John or someone else?

NO?

well then can you give a list of the names of those baptized by John, or jesus disciples?
---francis on 2/26/13


We have no list of who john or Jesus disciples baptized.
This thief may have been baptized by John, Jesus disciples, or someone else
francis on 2/26/13

Thats right, christen!
It might even be that the thief was caught up in some kind of temporal time paradox.
And was accidently sent back in time, and caught by the Romans. Who accused of being a thief.
It might even be that the thief was really a saint in disguise.
Or he was really Jesus fourth cousin on his uncle side.

Or he was just a thief who God saved.

Francis, if youre going to add to the stories.
Then add to them, you dont have enough color!
Doesnt the time paradox sound better?
Peace
---TheSeg on 2/26/13


Nana,
I probably shouldn't have written "for anything", although there was a context behind my words.

I was responding to Trey's misuse of James 2 that we must prove to others that we are believers. It is not supported by the context at all.

Also, Jesus taught that there will be wheat and tares together. His clear teaching is that we cannot know a believer by externals.

As for Matt 5:25, that wouldn't constitute being justified. We are to live peacably with others, forgive and seek forgiveness, etc.

Not the same thing as proving that we believe the gospel
---James_L on 2/26/13


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
---francis on 2/26/13


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"We don't need any justification before man for anything"
I do not agree.

Matthew 5:25 "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

justify:

transitive verb

a : to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable


intransitive verb

a : to show a sufficient lawful reason for an act done

Men must justify themselves with each other if need be.
---Nana on 2/26/13


Enlighten us then, what did the thief do to go to Paradise?
---christan on 2/25/13
what did the thief know that none f the 12 did?

That this Jesus would die, rise again, and inherit a kingdom

There is no HX of encounter between jesus and this thief, yet he belives in Jesus as the messiah

We have no list of who john or Jesus disciples baptized.
This thief may have been baptized by Jonh, jesus disciples, or someone else
---francis on 2/26/13


\\Our view point of our brothers and sisters in Christ:

Jas2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works...\\
---trey on 2/26/13

WRONG !!

The context is a believer's judgment

We will be judged by the Law of Liberty (2:12) at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Teachers will receive a stricter judgment (3:1). By our works, we will be justified in receiving a reward

I a man has only faith, but no works, it is becausee his works will be burned up - (cf 1Cor 3:15) He will not be "saved" from suffering loss (James 2:14)

We don't need any justification before man for anything

Who shall bring a charge against God's Elect ??

Context, Trey. Context
---James_L on 2/26/13


Nana //For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

However, James 2:10 tells us we all are lawbreakers since we break at least one of God's law nearly every day.

For the believer in Christ, we are justified not by the law but by our faith.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You need to be careful in your interpretation of the Bible as you cannot base your beliefs on a single verse, you need to consider the CONTEXT.
---e.lee7537 on 2/26/13


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If obedience to God's law can bring a sinner to His kingdom then the thief on the cross has no right to be in Paradise. But it was Christ who promised him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Enlighten us then, what did the thief do to go to Paradise?

More importantly, you might as well throw all the teachings of Paul and his epistles to the dogs if obeying God's law can earn you a place in His kingdom. "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
---christan on 2/25/13


Three view points of Justification:

God's view point:
Ro5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Our view point of ourselves internally:
Ga2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our view point of our brothers and sisters in Christ:

Jas2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
---trey on 2/26/13


For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now, what was the question...?
---Nana on 2/25/13


Does our obedience to God's laws contribute anything to our justification?
---e.lee7537 on 2/24/13
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
---francis on 2/25/13


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Our obedience to God makes us want to be more obedient to God. We are saved by grace through faith and belief in Jesus as Son of God and the Lamb who died for our sins and arose,lives,and sits on the Right Hand of God. Jesus died for sins but our repentance only covers past sins,not all sins we may do after that automatically. There is no forgiveness of a person without they repent of their sins. If we walk in the Spirit we won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. If we don't love God more than we love the world and whats in it we haven't yet loved enough. Jesus is our justification,we must die to self and live to Him by putting old things away. Jesus said be Holy as I am Holy.
---Darlene_1 on 2/25/13


imputed righteousness is enough for us to escape the flames of hell, but that is not sufficient for us to enter heaven.

One must be born again. His sins must be removed. This a New Testament phenomenon.

That is why the Old Testament saints were in Paradise, and not in Heaven. Their sins were merely covered.

But when Jesus died, He removed their sins. Then He went into the belly of the earth, preacehd the good news to them and took them to be with Him.

Now, when a believer dies, he does not got to Hades because his sins have been removed at the moment of faith.

We got to with the Lord in Heaven, because the blood of Christ is much more effective than the blood of bulls and goats.
---James_L on 2/25/13


In other words are we declared to be more righteous (justified), if we are obedient to the law?

Or is the righteousness imputed to us in Christ, totally sufficient to be declared righteous?

Ministers tell us that our sin - past, present, & future was placed on Christ, and the righteousness in Christ was credited to our account - double imputation.

Othes like the Roman Catholic tell us that we lose our justification if we commit mortal sins. Such lost of justification can only be restored by participating in the sacraments.
---e.lee7537 on 2/25/13


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