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Is God Always The Same

Does God change or is he always the same? Please give scripture.

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 ---trey on 2/28/13
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'the ruler of England is not Elizabeth Windsor but Queen Elizabeth'- Marc.

This is Marc grasping at straws. Either that or he doesn't know the difference between a name and a title. I'll guess Marc is limited in understanding the difference between a name and a title.

The name of England's ruler is Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor. She has the title, Her Majesty the Queen, before which she had other titles- 'Duchess' was one.

The UK Monarch is given the title Queen or King, in the same way as distinguished individuals are titled Sir or even Lord. They are given these titles because of who they are or what they've accomplished. But these are titles as Lord and Saviour are titles given to God's Son whose name is Jesus.
---David8318 on 3/15/13


"The Lord Jesus Christ"- Marc

That reminds me...

*************************************************************************************

JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR ALL!


Some 20 million people, in all parts of the world, will commemorate this incredibly significant occasion on the anniversary of his sacrificial death:

TUESDAY, MARCH 26, 2013.

All are welcome. Look for personal invitations to arrive soon or locate a nearby Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses.

"Do this in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19

*************************************************************************************
---scott on 3/15/13


Marc like a cornered rat twists and turns to make his apostate trinity fit. Marc has Sharp's disease- make things up as you go along and make sure the trinity fits. It took 3 days for Marc to dream up this ridiculous Jesus name game.

You can see Marc's desperation- he says 'the Lord Jesus Christ... This is Jesus' full name', and then cites Acts which when you look at them do not say 'the Lord Jesus Christ'!

Rather, 'baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus'- Acts 8:16. Did Luke forget Jesus' full name?

Apostle Peter calls Jesus, 'Lord and Savior Jesus Christ' THREE times (2Pe.1:11, 2:20, 3:18) in the same breath as 1:1! Marc's arguement is baseless- Jesus' title (or name for Marc's benefit) includes Lord and Savior.
---David8318 on 3/15/13


Kathr, Again, the death of the spirit is not as if it had somehow been "annihilated" or brought to a state of "non-existence". When Adam sinned, his spirit did not go into a state of "non-existence". The spirit remains "alive", yet, it is dead in the sense of being disconnected from GOD's Salvation and Promise of Eternal Life. And, in that condition, that spirit (and soul) are on it's way to Eternal Damnation if not quickened by the LORD's Holy Spirit unto Salvation. It's like people who are unbelievers. They are "alive", "up and about and living their daily lives", yet, they are spiritually DEAD. If they die in that condition they shall go into Eternal spiritual Damnation.
---Gordon on 3/15/13


A significant number of early church pillars such as St. Augustine, Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, Justin Martyr, and St. Jerome believed in the doctrine of reincarnation. In his Confessions, St. Augustine ponders the common sense viability of reincarnation: Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body? Confessions of St. Augustine, Edward Pusey, translator, Book I.
John Calvin was very influenced by St. Augustine. So the idea of pre-existence and re-birth, AKA reincarnation, came through the false prophet St. Augustine greatly influencing the doctrine of Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/13




David,

The expression 'the Lord Jesus Christ' is used 20 or so times in the NT, always post PHYSICAL resurrection. This is Jesus' full name, just as the ruler of England is not Elizabeth Windsor but Queen Elizabeth. Luke writes, "only been baptised in the NAME of the Lord Jesus...in the NAME of the Lord Jesus...the NAME of the Lord Jesus was magnified." (Acts 8:16,9:29,19,17)

Try as you might, you can't uncouple the two by Watchtower fiat. Thus, possibly, Sharp's rule is not apposite at 2 Thess 1:12, because 'Lord Jesus Christ' serves as a proper noun.
---Marc on 3/14/13


David: "Marc ignores the 6th Granville Sharp rule...However, the 1st GS rule."
"I partially quote Sharp"
"If Sharp's rule (for what its worth)"
"Regardless of who Mr Sharp happens to be, Greek convention has always been, 1 article, 1 referent. 2 articles, 2 referents."

Nice work, David: Authoritatively quote Granville Sharp when you think you're on a winner, but progressively distance yourself when it's pointed out he's against your heresy.
---Marc on 3/14/13


Marc- if your Vatican masters allowed you to read the Bible, you would see 2Pe.1:1 in context. Verse 2 says 'the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord'. Context and structure demand the article at 1:1. Jesus being described as Lord & saviour has no singular bearing on the use of the article.

2Pe.1:1 doesn't mean Jesus is both 'the God and saviour of us'. Rather it says 'the God OF US and saviour Jesus Christ', which is totally different to your spin. 'OF US' only qualifies 'the God'. The Codex Sinaiticus using 'Lord' not 'God' opens other possibilities too.

Honestly, is 2Pe.1:1 the best you can do to prove the trinity? 2Pe.1:1 doesn't speak of the holy spirit! What a weak, pathetic argument for the trinity you have!
---David8318 on 3/14/13


Gordon, no scripture specifically states one's spirit died with Adam.

As the spirit without the body is DEAD, meaning the death of a body, so faith without works is dead...meaning nonexistent.

Many OT scriptures talk about the Spirit as being LIFE, a life that grieves, feels sorrow, etc. When the Spirit leaves the body, the Body is dead.

The BORN AGAIN experience is not a re-birth of mans spirit. It's GOD's Spirit in us...even the New Covenent promise is I WILL PUT " MY" Spirit in you. It doesn't say, " I will put a new spirit in you, or I will revive your spirit. Being Born Again is still not a rebirth of man's dead spirit.

This is what I am talking about.
---kathr4453 on 3/14/13


Kathr, It's true that the spirit and soul do not die, in the sense that they will not be "annihilated", or be brought into a state of "non-existence". But, the soul and spirit will "die" in the sense of existing without purpose or meaning. The Damned shall be brought down LOW to a state where they have no reason for BEING alive, yet, they must remain alive that way Forever, with Torments on top of it all. They will be forgotten by the Saints and angels in Heaven. They will only be remembered by GOD for HIS Wrath that'll be poured upon them throughout Eternity. Just like how a dying person, wasting away in a vegetated state, is "ALIVE", yet, has no "Life" or any real reason to live.
---Gordon on 3/14/13




Hebrews 13:8. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. I think God is sad at what He sees what the world is doing. I don't know if He sheds a tear or not. He has blessed America but I think He has taken His hand off America. I believe He is disgusted at the sodomites, drunks, murderers and a country that makes fun of Christians.
---shira4368 on 3/14/13


A Spirit cannot die, any spirit for that matter. The SOUL that sinneth IT shall die.

That's why God removed them from the Garden so they wouldn't live forever in a fallen state. They would have then a Spiritual life and live forever. So we know they didn't eat of that fruit at all.

You seem to believe MarkV that a re-birth of your old adam took place .

BUT, what you are sadly saying is you think you were put BACK to where Adam was before the fall. That is a false doctrine.

We are a NEW CREATURE, not a remade old man. We are now begotten sons of God through Jesus Christ through our NEW BIRTH, not "RE"-Brith. THAT was never the case with Adam /Eve before the fall. They were carnal, made of dust.
---kathr4453 on 3/14/13


'Lord Jesus Christ), which is a complete proper name'- Marc.

I beg to differ. 'Lord' and 'saviour' describe what Jesus is. Saviour is not Jesus' name, neither is Lord. Jesus is the name of our Lord and saviour. So I don't accept Marc's reasoning. If Sharp's rule (for what its worth) doesn't apply at 2Thess.1:12 it doesn't apply at 2Pe.1:1.

'the God of us + saviour' applies to Jesus Christ'- no it does not. 'OF US' or 'our' qualifies 'God', not 'the saviour' Jesus Christ.

Marc is an excellent mouthpiece for the spiritual reprobates at the Vatican. As for Sharp, he is as inconsequential as the exceptions he makes to his 'rules' to preserve the pagan trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 3/14/13


Kathr, Adam and Eve did die spiritually, as well as in all the different ways in mind, body, soul and spirit. Sin causes death in every possible way. That's why Hell and the Lake of Fire exist. They are the culmination of the result of the fallen angels, and as well, of mankind's sins. Adam and Eve died spiritually which is why GOD prophecied to them of the coming Saviour YAHUSHUA, Who was "crucified before the foundation of the World" (REVELATION 13:8, I PETER 1:19-20, II TIMOTHY 1:9, and a hint at it in GENESIS 3:15.) Sin is passed on to all of mankind through the man, the first Adam, as in ROMANS 5. This sin caused spiritual death. It just does not get fully played out and realized until one enters Eternal Damnation at death.
---Gordon on 3/14/13


Kathr, you reject you were cursed, that does not suprise me. You say,
"Can you refute this by YOUR SCRIPTURE or just your opinion?"
What you and Gordon have given is opinions, opinions which are false. When a person has been cursed, that curse stays with them unless someone removes it. In the case of all descendants of Adam they remain cursed to hell unless God removes the curse of death and condemnation. For it was He who put it, and only He can remove it.
Coming to Christ with no faith as you did, does not do it. The curse remains with you.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).
---Mark_V. on 3/14/13


Gordon, and smart Kathr, the curse is condemnation and spiritual death. Hello? Is anyone there?---.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/13

No MarkV, Comdemnation does not mean CURSE. Satan did not spiritually die. And no where can you find we spiritually died. The first Adam was a life giving soul, the Last Adam is that Life giving SPIRIT, that was NOT FIRST that was SPIRITUAL but Carnal, therefore Adam was not SPIRITUAL where his spirit died.

Got that now.

Can you refute this by YOUR SCRIPTURE or just your opinion?
---kathr4453 on 3/14/13


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Mark V, Concerning "curses", I was referring to curses in the physical realm, not the spiritual. I know that mankind was cursed with spiritual death and condemnation and Damnation. Those were always givens with me. And I've mentioned all of that stuff of spiritual Condemnation on other comments of mine. But, with Kathr, I was focused in on the direct curses on the physical bodies of Adam and Eve and the Serpent.
---Gordon on 3/14/13


David,

Sharp's rule (if only your Brooklyn masters had allowed you to read his book) declares that both substantives must be, inter alia, personal and common nouns, not proper nouns (e.g. James) for the rule to apply. 2 Thess 1:12 has the expression "kai Kuriou Yisou Kristou" (i.e. [the] Lord Jesus Christ), which is a complete proper name, as is it used elsewhere dozens of times in the NT. ('the' is inserted for English grammar reasons) Sharp's rule probably does not apply here.

With 2 Peter 1:1 'saviour + Jesus Christ' is not a proper name, so Sharp's rule applies. Thus, 'the God of us + saviour' applies to Jesus Christ.

David, ask Brooklyn for permission to read Sharp in its entirety.
---Marc on 3/13/13


Gordon, and smart Kathr, the curse is condemnation and spiritual death. Hello? Is anyone there?
As much as you want to escape the curse, and teach there is no curse, both of you teach lies.
"Therefore, as through one man's offense Judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,.."
Judment came from God to all men, and what happened? They were all condemned. Both of you too.
For it does not say except for Gordon and Kathr. All men, including Kathr.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/13


kathr, God did put a curse on people. He said a woman must travail in childbirth and both adam and eve were no longer in the garden God had created for them.
---shira4368 on 3/14/13


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Gordon, there was no direct CURSE that said "CURSE" out on Adam/Eve. We see Satan cursed and the land cursed,.

Also read what God was said to Balaam, "DO NOT CURSE my People, for they are BLESSED".

Now we have the blessings and curses given under the Law of Moses.

So, Adam toiled because the earth was cursed, but Adam was not cursed, nor were humans cursed.

God said to Abraham, I will BLESS those who bless you and CURSE those who Curse you, and in thee will allfamilies of the earth be Blessed.

SOOOOO MarkV's idea that all were CURSED therefore God has a sovereign right to uncurse as His good humor decides contradicts his words to Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/13


Kathr, Yes, it was the Serpent that was cursed by the LORD. Whereas, for Adam and Eve, because of their willingness to disobey GOD's direct Command, there were cursings. For Eve, the birthing of children was done with pain (animals have no pain in child-bearing, that I'm aware of, anyway.) And, the ground was cursed for Adam's sake, that his work should be more difficult. So, Adam and Eve is not said to be cursed themselves DIRECTLY, but, yet, they sorta were, in certain situations which were cursed, which made life more difficult for them. Yet, even in those difficulties, Goodness comes out of it. For Adam, a Salary, or provisions, from hard work. And for Eve, a beautiful baby. GOD's Mercy and Grace at operates even in Chastenings and Cursings.
---Gordon on 3/13/13


Micha9344- the NWT is consistent in that for both 2Thess.1:12 and 2Peter 1:1 the belief is taught that God and Jesus are not the same, and that they are different.

Trinitarians distinguish between God and Jesus at 2Thess.1:12 but not at 2Pe.1:1, which is a favourite scripture used to castigate the NWT & JW's for "inserting" the article ('the') before 'saviour'.

The NWT is consistent in rendering both 2Thess.1:12 and 2Pe.1:1 to mean God and Jesus are 2 different entities because the sentence structure is exactly the same in both verses. Trinitarians do not and are not consistent, which proves they are driven by the pagan trinity dogma and not by what is written in the Bible.
---David8318 on 3/12/13


More word-play from MarkV,

TWO important issues here.

1st.
God NEVER "Cursed" man, only the serpent.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field, upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Man is not totally depraved unless God too is depraved:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


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Gordon, I thought you were running away. You are back. Now you say,
"Mark V, And I'M glad that GOD's Love and Mercy is not how YOU believe." That's why you don't understand. your in unbelief.
Then say," GOD would not purposely create human souls only for the sake of damning them to Hell and the Lake of Fire." Lets check. All descendants of Adam have been found guilty by God. You know why? Because it was God who put the curse on all mankind. Before you were yet born the curse was already there. As soon as you were born you became a descendant of Adam, guilty, condemned to hell. Hello? What Bible are you reading?
---Mark_V. on 3/12/13


2Pet 1:1b ...by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:-NWT
2The 1:12b ...with the undeserved kindness of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.-NWT
Both 2Thess.1:12 and 2Pe.1:1 are constructed exactly the same. If the article is good for one, its good for the other! NWT is consistent...-David8318 on 3/11/13
What about the brackets and the prepostion. It looks quite inconsistant to me.
If they are constructed the same, why not translate them the same?.
Only hypocrits condemn others for doing the same thing they do.
---micha9344 on 3/12/13


Previous post should have read regarding 2Pe.1:1, 'Yet with 2Pe.1:1 RCCMarc and trinitarians omit the article before 'soteros' (saviour) and hypocritically castigate the NWT for using the def.article at 2Pe.1:1.

The same way the article is used before 'kyriou' at 2Thess.1:12 even by trinitarians despite the article not appearing in the Greek. Context and sentence structure demand its use.

Both 2Thess.1:12 and 2Pe.1:1 are constructed exactly the same. To be consistent, the article should appear in both.

The article ('the') before 'soteros' (saviour) at 2Pe.1:1 is in harmony with the context- the following verse says, 'the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord'.
---David8318 on 3/11/13


Further to the comparison of 2Thess.1:12 with 2Pe.1:1, notice the trinitarian rendering of 2Thess.1:12,

'grace of our God and THE Lord Jesus Christ', NKJV,NIV.

Literally, 2Thess.1:12, 'GRACE of the God OF US and Lord Jesus Christ'. Notice no definite article before 'kyriou' (Lord) in the Greek. But context and sentence structure demand the article.

Yet with 2Pe.1:1 RCCMarc and trinitarians omit the article before 'kyriou' and hypocritically castigate the NWT for using the def.article at 2Pe.1:1.

Both 2Thess.1:12 and 2Pe.1:1 are constructed exactly the same. If the article is good for one, its good for the other! NWT is consistent, Marc is not and is driven by Vatican lies and not by God's word!
---David8318 on 3/11/13


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Mark V, And I'M glad that GOD's Love and Mercy is not how YOU believe. GOD would not purposely create human souls only for the sake of damning them to Hell and the Lake of Fire. THAT is what Satan wants! GOD is the total opposite of Satan. To accuse GOD of creating people just to damn them is making GOD into a Tyrant. Man having free-will is not wresting Control from GOD when GOD is the ONE Who created man with free-will! In choosing between Salvation and Damnation, man can only receive either one only within the perimeters that GOD HIMSELF laid out, so that, GOD is STILL in ultimate Control, regardless of each man's choice.
---Gordon on 3/11/13


If Peter wanted to identify Jesus as 'the God and Savior' (2Pe.1:1), one would expect him to have said, 'righteousness of the God and Savior OF US Jesus Christ.' The word 'our' only qualifies 'God'. If Peter wanted us to think Jesus is both OUR God and OUR Savior, it seems likely he would have written it as "[the God and Savior] of us" rather than "[the God of us] and Savior."

Trinitarians accept this grammar construction at 2Thess.1:12, agreeing Paul does not identify Jesus as 'the God'. Why? Because the RCC (seat of Christendoms pagan trinity dogma) perversely deceive their adherents to believe Peter (their 1st "pope") called Jesus 'God'. What blasphemous deceit and corruption- promoted by RCC and Marc!
---David8318 on 3/11/13


The Codex Sinaiticus uses 'Lord' instead of 'God', rendering the verse as, 'righteousness of the Lord of us and Savior Jesus Christ'- 2Pe.1:1.

This agrees with the context. 1:2 says, 'the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord' (NKJV).

Further internal evidence suggests the rendering 'Lord' was used by Peter:

1:11: kingdom of the Lord of us and Savior Jesus Christ.

2:20: in knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

3:18: in knowledge of the Lord of us and Savior Jesus Christ.

All the cherry picking and footstamping by Marc in his preferred rendering of 2Pe.1:1 will not establish Marc's rendering as authentic. Its only one possibility- and possibilities are not established facts.
---David8318 on 3/11/13


Gordon, You now say,
"I believe that all human souls were created and existed in Heaven before the foundation of the World. And, up in the Third Heaven, each soul was given the Choice between following GOD or following Satan after he rebelled."
So the souls in heaven also had free will? When will you stop with that nonesense. I am glad it is only what you believe in your own mind, because nowhere are those comments made in Scripture. Just another idea of man. Those kind of words start more cults like the Jehovah Witnesses and mormons, Jim Jones and I cannot forget E.G. White and the Word of Faith teachers.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/13


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Sharp's Rule and "Typical evasive ignorance"- Marc

Titus 2:13:

NRSV- "The manifestation of our great God and Saviour (or of the great God and our Savior), Jesus Christ." Footnote

TEV- "when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (or the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ) will appear." Footnote


The translators of the NRSV and TEV draw attention to appropriate alternative renderings in their footnotes in spite of Sharp's rule.

Why?

Will these translations be dismissed by Marc (along with the KJV and ASV) as inaccurate and outdated?
---scott on 3/10/13


At 2Thess.1:12 although similar construction as 2Pe.1:1, most trinitarian translators do not believe Jesus is being identifed as 'God'.

'grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ', 2Thess.1:12 NKJV,NIV.

The comparison is significant for these reasons:

2Thess.1:12, 'GRACE of the God OF US and Lord Jesus Christ'.

2Pe.1:1, 'RIGHTEOUSNESS of the God OF US and Saviour Jesus Christ'.

The construction is exactly the same. However, it is clear that translators do not think Jesus is being identified as 'God' at 2Thess.1:12. Since the construction is exactly the same at 2Pe.1:1, then why would anyone insist that Jesus is being identified as 'God' in 2Pe.1:1 if not for the sake of their false trinity dogma?
---David8318 on 3/10/13


'we have... a much richer pool of manuscripts'- Marc. (2Pe.1:1)

Such as the Codex Sinaiticus, likely the oldest manuscript around which does not say 'righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ.' It rather says, 'righteousness of the Lord of us and Savior Jesus Christ.' There are also other manuscripts which read 'Lord' instead of 'God.'

There are doubts with trinitarian renderings:

'the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ'- NIV.

'the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ'- KJV.

The very next verse says, 'Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord'.

Thus, trinitarian claims Jesus is God based on 2 Pe.1:1 are unreliable.
---David8318 on 3/10/13


I believe that all human souls were created and existed in Heaven before the foundation of the World. And, up in the Third Heaven, each soul was given the Choice between following GOD or following Satan after he rebelled. Some chose GOD, some chose to follow Satan, believing that he'd win in the end, and some, at first, chose GOD, but, later recanted and followed Satan instead. And, that, now, each human being is playing out on Earth the same choice that they made in Heaven. Though there are exceptions. This understanding has been revealed by GOD through a modern holy Prophet of HIS.
---Gordon on 3/10/13


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No Scott, you haven't got it. All you're doing is displaying the typical evasive ignorance that JWs pretend is reasoned argument when they're in a corner, and everyone but you and David can see this.

It's common knowledge, for example, since the KJ translation was made we have discovered a much richer pool of manuscripts. Also, since that time, scholars of Koine Greek, though a dead language, have made incredible gains understanding what, for example, the grammar rules and semantics were 2000 years ago. Since Granville Sharp's rule clearly tells us that 2 Peter 1:1 calls Jesus God and Saviour and the Watchtower a priori rejects this, your "reasoning" is mere specious distraction from the linguistic facts.
---Marc on 3/10/13


Gordon, you reject every passage that speaks about God. How can you ever learn anything on any topic? You have given one verse out of context (2 Peter 3:9) One of two favorites for free willers. Why give the gospel you say? Because we do not know who the elect are, only God. And they are lost and need the gospel Truth so they can come to Christ. God will make them spiritually alive by drawing them, at that time they will receive faith and repentance, and they will know the Truth of the gospel because the gospel will come to them not only in word, but in power and with the Holy Spirit and in much assurance. (1 Thess. 1:4,5). You on the otherhand don't have the gospel Truth, the reason you do not believe in the assurance of the saints.
---Mark_V. on 3/10/13


"At the End of the Day, every single human being will have been given a Choice to either love and follow GOD or to reject HIM... EVERYONE will have had at least one opportunity to FREELY receive GOD or reject HIM." Gordon

You will never be able to support your "belief" with a single verse from the Scripture. That's because the Word teaches otherwise,

"...and as MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48, "...even to them which stumble at the word, BEING DISOBEDIENT: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPPOINTED." 1 Peter 2:8

Verses here simply confirms the doctrines of election by grace and the reprobates. Whereas, yours confirms delusion and lies.
---christan on 3/9/13


"A previously faulty translation"- Marc

Ahhh, got it.

Then it would stand to reason, using your conclusion, that any translation, (current/modern or otherwise) that does not adhere to Sharp's "rule" in their NT text is, in fact, a "faulty translation".

And, likewise, any translator or Greek NT scholar who ignores or dismisses this "rule", for one reason or another, is operating with faulty scholarship or even perhaps theological bias.

Is that what you're suggesting?

It must be, otherwise it becomes obvious that your criticism is one based on singular, blind prejudice rather than the larger issue of translating NT Koine Greek into English.
---scott on 3/9/13


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Scott,

No, I accuse them of a previous faulty translation. Today the NEW American Standard and the NEW KJ translate 2 Peter 1:1 as "our God and saviour, Jesus Christ", thus conforming to Sharp's rule.

As you know, both Bibles have always been Trinitarian but because you neither read Greek nor are honest, you've twisted what the older translators were attempting to communicate. The Watchtower has a clear heretical agenda and latches onto anything and as a result ignores what scholars recognise: "The Granville Sharp rule undoubtedly applies to this construction, thereby referring both titles ("God" and "Saviour") to Jesus Christ." (Wright, B., 'Jesus as THEOS')
---Marc on 3/9/13


"EXACTLY the same grammatical form...theological bias."- Marc


The American Standard Version-

2 Peter 1:1- "of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ."

2 Pet 1:11- "of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."


The King James Version-

2 Peter 1:1- "of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

2 Pet 1:11- "of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."


Marc apparently accuses the ASV and KJV translators of "theological bias" as well.
---scott on 3/9/13


-Chria9396 on 3/8/13
i like yucomments
---francis on 3/9/13


Gordon, if you only could understand the Word of God. Here is what I mean,
"If" you" belief you are saved and turn away from Christ, you give evidence you were never one of the elect" This has nothing to do with what God beliefs but what you belief. What it does is confirms (1 John 2:19) that you were never one of us. You have to remain in Christ in order to give evidene you are one of the chosen ones. Read it.
You exhalt man above God with your own free will theology, giving evidence you are still at enmity against God. Depending on your self righteous deeds and not on God. Giving proof you have no faith in God, but in your own works. That is why you argue against OSAS the believers assurance.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/13


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Yes, God is the same, yesterday today and forever.
Ps 102:27, Heb1:12, James 1:17, Mal 3:6, Ps 90:2

However, He is beyond mans finding out, and who can fathom, there is the mystery of godliness.
rom 11:33, 1 Tim 3:16, Job 36:26

How one sees or perceives (who) God (is) may change. Previous perception may have been off,.but even if correct, that perception develops as God is pleased to reveal Himself. What one understands at any given time is from that ones perspective as the Lord wills.
---Chria9396 on 3/8/13


"Free-will" theology is nothing but a delusion and deception. In salvation, Scripture MUST confirm Scripture.

In the case of quoting John 8:12 and John 12:47,48 to justify "free-will", one will run into a brick wall when shown John 6:44, 65. That's because without John 6:44,65 occuring first, John 8:12 and John 12:47,48 WILL and NEVER can happen, period. That's to say, the sinner will never "follow nor hear" the Gospel if John 6:44,65 does not occur first.

Bottomline, "free-will" exalts only the man. Poor old god has to wait for the sinner to "accept" his son, reducing His omnipotence to rubbles, which is blasphemous to say the least.
---christan on 3/8/13


trey, you clearly do not accept the word of God either.

John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
But you would deny the clearly written, right trey?

John 12:47_48 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
That judgement is for rejecting the word, "the light of life." It is not because it is denied them- rather that they deny it.
---Nana on 3/8/13


Gordon, you have no understanding of God's "mercy" even if you saw one. I'll spare you total embarrassment of your void of understanding God's "mercy" in just one verse.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

Know what this means? Not a single soul born into this world has been spared of this unbelief in His Son. Sobering thing is, God declared that He's the one who put YOU in unbelief. Why? So that He can show mercy to a sinner like me and then for me to appreciate His GRACE. But does He show mercy to everyone? Your answer is in the Lake of Fire.
---christan on 3/8/13


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Mark V, You make no sense as you claim that only certain people are ordained unto Salvation, and that when GOD "predestinates" one to be Saved there is nothing that anyone can do to change it. So, I'm Saved, and yet, you're telling me that I CAN "turn away" from this Salvation if I want to, if I "choose" to. HUH?? (lol) Mark V, how can I choose to turn away if I am "predestinated" unto Salvation! No, Mark V. I've GIVEN you Scriptures. You just don't see them because you are just too blinded by OSAS and the false interpretation of Predestination, and encouraged by the back-slaps of so-and-so. As I've said, by Judgment Day, EVERYONE will have had at least one opportunity to FREELY receive GOD or reject HIM.
---Gordon on 3/8/13


Mark V, GOD's Will is that HE created mankind with free-will choice. LOOK UP THE WORD "WILL" IN THE DICTIONARY, Mark V. "Will" also means "Desire"! GOD's Desire is that ALL men be Saved. But, all must CHOOSE with their wills. How can someone be Saved if they weren't lost to begin with?? What's the point in even spreading the Gospel if only certain ones have been predestined to be Saved?? Your doctrines are so brainless, Mark. You keep saying that I don't present Scripture, when actually I HAVE, you just don't know what they REALLY mean! When I explain what they mean you accuse me of "using only my own words". And, round-and-round it goes again. Wake-up, Mark, you're in bondage to false doctrine!
---Gordon on 3/8/13


David/Scott,

1.tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Yesou Kristou (2 Peter 1:11, KIT) = of the Lord of us and of saviour Jesus Christ

According to Sharp's rule and the Watchtower, the Lord and saviour refer to Jesus.

2.tou theou hemon kai soteros Yesou Kristou (2 Peter 1:1, KIT) = of the God of us and of saviour Jesus Christ

According to Sharp's rule, but NOT to the Watchtower, the God and saviour refer to Jesus.

Both 1 and 2 have EXACTLY the same grammatical form, but because of their theological bias the Watchtower disregards the grammar and lies about God's Word.
---Marc on 3/8/13


Gordon, your many words mean nothing when they contradict the Word of God. You can talk from Texas to California and it is meaningless. Just like francis answer.
And to argue you add words not found in Scripture. I say repent and ask for forgiveness, if you are saved. If you are not, then it won't matter. Remember when you said God was not willing any should perish, Here is what the Word of God says,
"He doeth according to His will" in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35) You conclude He is trying to do His will but man won't let Him, accusing Him of lying and stripping Him of His Divine Power. I say repent.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/13


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Christan, And, you claim that MY belief lacks Mercy?? What lacks Mercy is a doctrine that teaches that only certain human beings were created to be Saved and that the rest of mankind were only created for and are only fit for Damnation for they "cannot turn unto GOD, for they were not 'chosen' by GOD". THAT is Merciless. (lol) omg. Wake-up, Christan. Such falsehoods you preach only MIS-LEAD. They do not lead to GOD. They only ROB any Hope from those others of mankind which YOU, and certain others here, claim that GOD isn't drawing unto HIMSELF. At the End of the Day, every single human being will have been given a Choice to either love and follow GOD or to reject HIM.
---Gordon on 3/8/13


Jed, sad to say, MarkV is right. That's because the "ALL" in 2 Peter 3:9 MUST be read in proper context of who these "ALL" Peter is referring to. And it's most definitely not ALL of mankind.

You will notice Jesus explicitly declared, "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." That is, the "ALL" in 2 Peter 3:9 is particular and does not refer to everyone of mankind. That's because the Father never gave all of mankind to His Son. If He did according to your understanding, then NO ONE should go to hell!

But the gate to the Lake of Fire is a broad gate! So much for your understanding of "ALL".
---christan on 3/8/13


Salvation is offered to all the world. You are the one who do not accept the word of God.
---Nana on 3/7/
AMEN

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
---francis on 3/8/13


Nana, let us examine what John 3:16 really says and not what you think it says:

For (Because) God so loved the world (This cannot be the whole world because God did not love Esau - Mal 1:3, Rom 9:13. This is the world of his elect chosen before the foundation of the world. - Eph 1:4)

that he gave his only begotten Son, (the eternal Son of God, Christ.)

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Not "whosoever will believe" but believeth meaning "has faith". Thus "believeth" is an evidence of salvation not a prerequisite.)

should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Meaning they posses everlasting life.)

No mention of an offer.
---trey on 3/7/13


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Nana, again, the light is shining on those passages you gave and you did not see them. Read them again. Show where God said you have free will. What He did say is that you have a will to choose, and whatever decision you make is bias, one way or another, it is not free.
Don't you understand that if you make a decision it is motived by some reason? If you made a decision for no reason (free of any motives) God could not judge you right or wrong, but God judges us by our motives and reasons when we make decisions.
The gospel goes out to all mankind. But many's will, will not want to accept it as Truth. Whoever believes is saves, whoever does not belief is not save. Pretty simple passages when light is shining and you can see.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/13


"You read the word of God and refuse to admit these are the Words of the Lord."
Mark_V.

John 3:15_17 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved."

Salvation is offered to all the world. You are the one who do not accept the word of God.
---Nana on 3/7/13


Nana, the light is shining right now and you cannot comprehend it.
"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (John 1:4,5). You read the word of God and refuse to admit these are the Words of the Lord.
Jed turns the will of God to what he himself wills, and that is coming from a sinner. Lets see if God is right or Jed is right,
"My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 16:10)
for
"He doeth according to His will" in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:32) Turns out God is right.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/13


Jesus say: "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
John says: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

Who abide are the doers, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
The light is there for all men to see, (Matthew 5:16).
---Nana on 3/6/13


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Mark_V, you are exactly correct! Most people don't study the attributes of God. They do not understand his omnipotence, his foreknowledge, supremacy, sovereignty, immutability, holiness, faithfulness, goodness, patience, mercy, etc.

If people would study who God is then they would understand his word far better.

Lord bless you and your family my friend.
---trey on 3/6/13


MarkV, so apparently "God's will is that none should perish" actually means "God's will is that none should perish, except for the ones that I do want to perish"? That doesn't make any sense. Obviously if you are saved then you wouldn't perish. So that statement would be as redundant as "everyone will be saved, except for those that won't be saved"

What the verse means is that God's desire is for everyone to choose him. But sadly, not all will choose him. Because God has created human beings with the ability to make their own choices, as evidence by the many times in scripture that people are told to choose.
---Jed on 3/6/13


Bro. Trey, I can see many here have never studied who God is. God never changes. He is always the same. Not His nature, character or attributes. When people look up passages, they do it by ripping the very deity of God in order to make the passage speak what they want it to say.
God never errs, never overlooks anything.
"... but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him whom we have to do" (Heb. 4:13) nothing can be concealed
"Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, Thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue but, O Lord, Thou knowest it altogether" (Ps. 139:2-4).
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


Jed 2: The passage (2 Peter 3:9) in the context is speaking about the brethren, to whom Peter is writing to (1:3) the beloved in (3:1) and (v.3: 8) that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise" His promise is only for those who are saved and will be saved, they only receive the promise. "as some count slackness but is longsuffering toward "us" "us" believers and those who will believe, the elect, "not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance"
The "all" must refer to all who are God's people who will come to Christ to make up the full number of the people of God. He is not willing that any of those perish.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


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Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. -James 1:17
*
But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day. -Proverbs 4:18
The full day is when the sun is directly overhead. No shadow cast.
---jan4378 on 3/6/13


Moderator,

I noticed on another thread (Is Jesus God or a god) that you allowed a Jehovah's Witness to advertise for one of their gatherings. How can that demonstrate that this site is Christian? A JW is allowed to do that! Please explain.
---Marc on 3/6/13


Jed, I'm going to answer you in the kindness way I can. First thing a believer should know is what the word "God" means in Scripture. Then find all Scripture that speak about Almighty God, not man, God. Then plant them in your heart, this way you are able to answer the passages correctly. You suggest, by giving the passage in (2 Peter 3:9) that God is not willing that any person should perish, yet people are perishing everyday. You suggest that sinful man can stop the will of God. There isn't anyone more powerful then Almighty God. If there is one thing or one person more powerful then God, that person is God, and God is not Almighty God, just a figment of your own imagination. Read the context of (2 Peter 3:9).
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


Jed,
Great verse, most people do not understand what the Apostle Peter is telling us (2nd Pet 3:9).

Note the word "usward" meaning: us/God's people/His elect in Christ/His chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).

Next, "is not willing" meaning: is not minded/or does not intend - that any of his will perish. Remember he is omnipotent. Dan 4:35
See also: John 10:27 & 28

Note "repentance" this word means: a change of mind. See Heb 12:17 - a reversal of effects of ones own previous state of mind. It is tied to the new birth, being a new creature in Christ.

Peter is stating that all God's children will be born again and have a "changed mind".
---trey on 3/6/13


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If God intent was for no one to die, He could have forgiven Adam and given no curse. And Jesus would have never been known as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
All die because of the curse.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/13


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9
---Jed on 3/5/13


francis, you now tell everyone that,

"It is not God intent that any should die in any way shape or form,
Death is the result of sin, not the will of God"

Don't you think you missed the mark again, just as before? Here let me help you. The reason all descendants of Adam die is not because of Adam but because of God's curse on Adam. If God intent was for no one to die, He could have forgiven Adam and given no curse. And Jesus would have never been known as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
All die because of the curse.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/13


In Isaiah 38:1, God tells Hezekiah he will die, but after Hesekaih prays to God, God changes His mind (Isaiah 38:5).
---Peter on 3/3/13
Psalms 100:5 For the LORD is good, his mercy is everlasting,

What God extended to the king was his mercy.

It is not God intent that any should die in any way shape or form,

Death is the result of sin, not the will of God

God unchanging will is mercy
---francis on 3/4/13


GOD NEVER CHANGES

AGE: Psalms 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

DOCTRINE: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

MERCY: Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

PROMISES: Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
---francis on 3/3/13


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In Isaiah 38:1, God tells Hezekiah he will die, but after Hesekaih prays to God, God changes His mind (Isaiah 38:5).

So it is possible for God to change His mind - though I assume God know He would change His mind, didn't He? For God knows everything about the future?
---Peter on 3/3/13


Yes, as Seg has said, this world can be horrible. But the sun is still shining (c: This world can't change the sun (c:

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

sunshine in our soul! (c: God's love in us does not change, showing us . . . proving to us . . . He will not change on us. Since all past eternity, all the evil and work of creating have not worn out our Father. His love won't run out (c:

And He can make us this way, too, so we also are untiring in compassion and forgiving "tenderhearted" (Ephesians 4:31-32, 1 Peter 8-9). He can share this with us and still not wear out.
---willie_c: on 3/1/13


God has always been the same but he has been known to change his mind! In certain instances
---1st_cliff on 3/1/13


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