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Does Man Have Free Will

Did God give man a will that is free? and if He did, show the passages in Scripture which state such a fact. Or does God say lost men are slaves to sin? I know what you want, but what does God say?

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 ---Mark_V. on 3/4/13
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Leon, you say about me,

"I "freely choose" not to further participate in this unfruitful blog. Mark "freely chooses" not to hear the Bible Truth that sets captives free!"
And God can freely keep you from going to heaven. And can feely keep you from knowing the Truth. And He can freely sent you to hell. You are free and He is free. Whose freedom do you think over rules the other? Yours are God's?
I sure hope you do not belief your freedom over powers God's freedom. If you do, you are far from been saved. And to this day your freedom has condemn you.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/13


I find it simply amazing how 10 verses of scripture (take notice how they are STUCK on these...almost like a broken record) are used as "proof" that election is the "truth" but thousands of others which deny their version of the truth are all "taken out of context"

I'm noticing more and more that in cults there is always an additional step between the sinner and Christ, and that step is typically "you MUST believe we are God's chosen and see things EXACTLY as we do" before Christ will accept you.

A sin no less worse than what the pope himself does when he allows men to bow before him as though he is Christ.
---LindaH on 3/7/13


//"That's the same as saying some were deliberately created by GOD to be eternally Damned!"//

Notice, that is exactly what he is christan is saying and twisting the Bible to support his own thinking, and then suggesting that we follow his thinking.

It sounds cultish...don't think, just believe what these people tell you...it's that brain washing stuff.

Even if what that teaching proclaims was true, from man's point of view, man has free will and it makes no difference to him. "Chose you this day whom you will follow.." Believers should still be thankful to
God for drawing them to Himself.
---Rod4Him on 3/7/13


Gordon, please stop whining. Show some passages. I wait for passages you are suppose to show, and nothing.
Let me say something to you, if you do not want to be one of the elect, then walk away from Christ. Go on your own. Please your own heart. For you do not need for God to take your own right away. It will give evidence you are not one of the elect. And when you go to hell, it will be by your own rejection of Christ. And you will fulfill ( 1 John 2:19).
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"
Take Kathr with you, she also does not want to be one of the elect.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/13


The "will "of man is his," reason, intellect and conscience " working together to make a choice. We can see how the moral law put within each unregenerate man works, by reading Romans 2. The MORAL LAW is not the law of Moses, but a moral law within the conscience knowing right from wrong.

We know God said, LET US REASON TOGETHER. Would God say such a thing if man were truly incapable of reasoning?

The Law of Moses, was not lived by or carried out by robots, but men who were told what happened if they CHOSE to disobey...being stoned right them. Who did the stoning? Robots? Who passed judgement, based on WHAT? Did they "BELIEVE " they would die if they broke the law?
---kathr4453 on 3/8/13




The law was given to SHOW MAN WHAT SIN IS? man used his " reason, intellect and conscience " and lived by that law. No "animal " can be reasoned with concerning such things. Each year, there was a day, called "the day of ATONEMENT"., where intellectual men understood this was a day when all sin was covered...FOR ONE YEAR. It had to be done again and again....UNTIL CHRIST CAME. No more year after hear...HURRAY.
No one had to be regenerated , Born Again first to UNDERSTAND this.

It was written to SINNERS for SINNERS.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/13


Like Isaac was SO ARE WE, children of promise.

Jacob and Esau were never "a child of PROMISE.". Now intellectual men who can REASON this according to scripture will know in their CONSCIENCE what is truth and lie here. But because Calvinists have no free will, that is, intelligence to reason this truth, because they are in bondage to SATAN who has blinded them, not sin or God blinding them.

God blinded Israel's eyes UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and THEN he will open their eyes. BUT Satan blinding one is a totally different matter.
The WORD of God is more powerful than satan, unless "YOU have seared YOUR OWN conscience", God calls "UNREASONABLE " DOGS.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/13


Ruben, you say,
"Mark , You and Christan have use your pet verse : "Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away," (JHn 6:37)".
You call the word of God a pet verse? You do that because the Word of God is not final authority to you. You can make your own rules.
Then you ask, 'when will God tell you, you are one of the elect?"
He does not have to tell you anything. If you do not realize you are one when saved, then you are not one who is saved. Because you reject the Truth of Scripture.
You do not want to be one of the elect, that is ok by me. But it is up to God along. His own decision.
---Mark_V. on 3/8/13


"That's the same as saying some were deliberately created by GOD to be eternally Damned!" Gordon

Read the Bible more instead of using that fallen heart of yours to ramble your "feelings" about vessels of honor and dishonor that Paul explicitly taught in Romans 9.

Now read these verses and tell us that these were not predestined to salvation and damnation - "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." Acts 13:48

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, BEING DISOBEDIENT: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED" 1 Peter 2:8
---christan on 3/7/13


Verses like Jn 6:39, which is often often taken for the free-wills idea, assumes a free thinking idea theory (which I hope was never thought).

So we are left with Augustine's idea" God sets people to be saved or destroyed but those people's idea knew nothing, so the decision as to the decision which was to be made in their life was still not theirs. So still Augustinian could be classed as agreeing with the setting of the setting of the arranging of the setting of the saved classes
---Peter on 3/7/13




TheSeg, that I would call idolotry.
kathr4453

Yes I know! But not just you, many!
---TheSeg on 3/7/13


Mark_V.* first of all no one knows who is one of the elect but God.

Mark ,

You and Christan have use your pet verse :

"Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away," (JHn 6:37)

But how are the Elect suppose to know when the Father draws them?

Mark_V.* They were elected by God before the foundation of the world unto salvation. They need for God to one day make them spiritually alive and seat them together with Christ If you are saved you are one of the elect.

When does God tells the Elect you were one of the choosen one since the foundation of the world?
---Ruben on 3/7/13


If you want to hold up Christ then, hold up your brothers!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/7/13

TheSeg, that I would call idolotry. Jesus said if I be lifted up, I willdraw all men unto me. So what does this have to do with holding up my brothers.

Ok TheSeg, it has to do with those who were disobedient. God struck them down with Leprosy, not blindness. Moses said, those who LOOK UP at the serpent Moses made out of bronze God would Heal. Some looked up, some did not. They were not HEALED FIRST and then told to look up anymore than the man seeing FIRST and Then washing the mud off his eyes.

Looking up at the serpent represented one acknowledging their SIN.

So, it doesn't need to be twisted
---kathr4453 on 3/7/13


Christan, You can't understand the truth that GOD does Bless HIS people when they love HIM, obey HIM and follow HIM? Read DEUTERONOMY 28. Do you really think that GOD blesses those of HIS who disobey HIM? GOD chastens those HE loves, HEBREWS 12:6. And, HE would have no need to chasten someone who was already obeying HIM! For, chastening is not the same thing as "nurturing" and "proving one's needs". Chastening is for when one veers off from the Path of Righteousness and obedience, and that one then needs correction by Chastisement. Like getting one's butt whipped. The Bible says "Spare the rod and spoil the child." PROVERBS 13:24.
---Gordon on 3/7/13


Oh kathr4453 Im sorry!
But it has everything to do with them that are blind!

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind.

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth.

By consistently
I mean repeating the saying that are actually in the gospel.
And not putting their own kind of a spin on it.
There are so many here, that do just that!

You bite and devourer each other, instead of loving, forgiving, and understanding each other.
If you want to hold up Christ then, hold up your brothers!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/7/13


It's either you believe that God has elected unconditionally as told in Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

--christan on 3/7/13

But on the other hand in the same context Paul tells people to choose for God:

"if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.".. the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him."(Romans 10:9-13)

Yes God will do as he said but on the other hand "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
---Ruben on 3/7/13


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Persons practicing legalism "ALWAYS" FREELY CHOOSE to major in the minors, i.e., get themselves bogged down in non-essential details (in the weeds). Their explanations are "ALWAYS" too detailed, off topic & off track (derailed). Why? They're NOT WILLING nor are they trying to "reason with & persuade" you with the facts you already know to be true. Instead, "they want to convince" you to believe the way they do, regardless of the facts. After all, they're right & you're "ALWAYS" wrong, at least in their eyes! :)

I "freely choose" not to further participate in this unfruitful blog. Mark "freely chooses" not to hear the Bible Truth that sets captives free! :)
---Leon on 3/7/13


Christan, Mark V believes that people were predestined to either be Saved or not-Saved. And, as the Scriptures make clear, those who are "not Saved" end up in Eternal Damnation, in Hell and the Lake of Fire. So, according to the way Mark believes about "Predestination", some are created and predestined unto Salvation and some are predestined to be "vessels of Wrath" unto Damnation. That's the same as saying some were deliberately created by GOD to be eternally Damned! Mark V won't say it exactly as I do, but, that's exactly what he believes! He says some are predestined for Salvation are some aren't! Now if some aren't deliberately Saved by GOD, then, they HAVE TO end up in Damnation. There's no 3rd alternative!
---Gordon on 3/7/13


God is the one who does the calling(drawing).

Man is the one who has the choice to make.
It doesn't stop God from calling (drawing) just because he gave man freewill to make a choice.

We can choose to ignore God and go to hell and eternal death and damnation.
OR When God calls we can choose to listen and belive and accept Jesus and go to heaven and have eternal life.

The predestiners don't understand God's love in ALLOWING man the choice.

It does not take away from God's power to draw man to him.
---g on 3/7/13


TheSeg, again Moses holding up the Serpent in the Wilderness was not about the blind. Please stop making it something it's not.

I don't care if christan and markv are consistantly WRONG, that too has nothing to do with John 3:14-17.
---kathr4453 on 3/7/13


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Mark V, I'm not yelling when I use CAPS, I am emphasizing certain words. I don't have an italics key. How is it that you believe that GOD deliberately created some human beings for the sole purpose of DAMNING them?? Is it because you're so "secure" in your "predestinated Salvation", that to know that GOD creates other human beings only for Damnation, that you cannot be touched by it?? Perhaps? Yet, YOU were once "lost" and "in sin", and are now Saved....Why cannot the OTHER people who are "lost" and "in sin", as YOU ONCE WERE, also have a chance at Salvation. Are YOU better than they? Does GOD love YOU more than they? Does GOD respect you more than other people?? (ROMANS 2:11?)
---Gordon on 3/7/13


You know what kathr4453
One might say it has everything to do with the blind.
Because it's possible, that the blind are leading the blind.

Everyone here is saying this means that and that mean this.
Yet there not a man on earth that can change anything the Lord thy God has done.
But still you have them that say this must be done or if this has not been done.

You see MarkV and christan there, these two people consistently say the same things.
christan more than MarkV, sorry MarkV but it's the truth.
Now I don't know them, nor do I care what denomination they are.
But I do care about truth.

All I see, they see! It's not in your hands.
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


Men is spiritually dead and by no meand wants or has any desire to come to know the living God. We are all sinners and fallen short. (Rom.3:23)We are enemies of God and by nature objects of his wrath.(ephesians 2:3) Before we come to know Christ, we want nothing to do with Him. God is sovereign in all this and he alone is credited for everystep of our savation process. To say we have free will and are able to chose God, this is a misinterpretation of the church. God alone is mighty to save. A dead man has no choice when it comes to being saved or not.
mark v gave the perfect example of Lazarus. God has predestined those who will inherit his kingdom. What shall we say that God is unfair no.?.
(romans 9:16-24)
---Jonny on 3/6/13


Linda and Rod4Him, let get straight to the point with regards to the election of God according to Scriptures. It's either you believe that God has elected unconditionally as told in Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" or you believe that your god elected because he saw something good you did, which clearly contradicts Romans 9:11.

To be blunt with the two of you, it's either you believe Romans 9:11 wholesale or you don't. "But let your communication be, Yea, yea, Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
---christan on 3/7/13


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Linda, first of all no one knows who is one of the elect but God. When the elect are physically born they are like the rest of the descendants of Adam separated from God, dead in sin. They were elected by God before the foundation of the world unto salvation. They need for God to one day make them spiritually alive and seat them together with Christ If you are saved you are one of the elect. I don't know why believers complain if they are saved. I can see unbelievers complaining saying, "why you and not me?" But not believers. Why do so many whin? Do they not want to be counted as one of the elect? Instead of been thankful God chose them, had mercy on them, instead, complain and whin. What is wrong with so many of you?
---Mark_V. on 3/7/13


Gordon, I can increase the size of the characters and blogs with my computer. I also have a 23" screen. I do not need for you to yell so much. Every time you capitalize your words almost leave my screen. You don't have to yell.
When you find one passage where God says, He gave free will to man, please post it. Its not there because God doesn't make mistakes Gordon. Right now He knows what is in your heart. You have a choice, but whatever choice you make will be for a reason. It is not free. Free would mean you have no reason for making a choice. If your will was free, you would have no reason. But you have a reason to yell, it is a moral reason. God judges us by our reasons and motives when we make a choice.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/13


//I ask how do they (Mark and Christan) KNOW they are the elect...//

They don't...that's one of the ironic things of that teaching. Apparently it gives a feeling of security, when in reality it should give an incredible insecurity feeling. The teaching tends to project insecurity to people who don't believe it, and that's why many people react to it.

I think people with strong narcissistic tendencies like the teaching because they feel they "are the chosen ones." Notice how arrogant the followers of that teaching tend to be.
---Rod4Him on 3/6/13


Ive been asking forever Reuben and I never get an answer.

I ask how do they (Mark and Christan) KNOW they are the elect and not just some fools (like the rest of us) who WANT to be saved, but can't.
---LindaH on 3/6/13


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Theseg, to answer your question, it had nothing to do with anyone being blind. You really must read what happened and why to understand why Jesus even said it in John 3:14-17.

Scripture teaches scripture.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/13


MarkV, this is really Gordon's problem - no understanding of what is grace. He has the impression of you saying the following, and I quote him, "YOU CLAIM that HE DOES RESPECT PERSONS by choosing some to be Saved and others to be damned."

Honestly, for the longest time that I've come to know you, this is the furthest from your mind. I do not have a clue where Gordon got this impression from but he's a little disturb when he reads Romans 2:11 and doesn't seem to be able to get past it and move on to grace.

Basically, he's a works monger. And he said it himself, "GOD Blesses HIS people in a great way when they obey and love and follow HIM." This is 100% works.
---christan on 3/6/13


Mark_V.*If He does not want to save you, He won't. You cannot make Him save you.

What was it that He pick you to be saved?


Mark_V.* While you are in bondage to sin, no one can take you out but the Lord if He so desires to do so. Almighty God is in charge not you.

It was a good thing that those in scripture who shout out to Jesus to have mercy on them, he felt that yea I chose to heal you:)
---Ruben on 3/6/13


Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work,
(and I have created the waster to destroy.)
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Luk 22:32 But (I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:) and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

So who do it?
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


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Nana if you read it again, you should see you are agreeing with me.
Thanks Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


Gordon, You say,
" GOD Blesses HIS people in a great way when they obey and love and follow HIM. But, that would apply to ANYONE who comes to HIM."
First, only His children follow Christ, the lost are not His children,
Second, if your saying all people can come to Christ without the Father drawing them, you accuse Jesus of lying. He said
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.." NO ONE. And to introduce your own free will, you say Jesus is lying, that sinful man has the ability without the Father drawing them first. Where is your faith in Christ. Gordon, listen, Those who believe they came to Christ on their own free will, better make their assurance sure before they die.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


Gordon. you have a lot to say with no passages that God gave us free will, not even one. You now say, and I will break it down.
"Mark V. You tell Shira that no one who is dead can choose Life." Dead people cannot choose anything.
"But, YOU were once dead in YOUR OWN trespasses and sins, and came short of the glory of God" That is correct. I was dead, now I am alive in Christ.
"yet, YOU managed to be Saved!" God made me alive together with Christ. I thought He did the same to you.
Why don't you understand? Read (Eph. 2:1-10) Ask God to open your mind if you are a believer. Seek God's help. For unbelievers do not seek God (Rom. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


"What does this mean, they were ordained?
Does this mean they choose! If they choose, then they weren't ordained!"

Isaiah 54:15 "Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake"

Luke 22:31 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:"
Maybe Jesus should have stated, 'God hath desired to have you'?
---Nana on 3/6/13


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Mark V, You still choose to ignore those Bible Verses I showed you? ALL have sinned and come short of GOD's Glory....and that includes YOU, Mark V. There is none righteous, no, NOT ONE....and that includes YOU, Mark V. You tell Shira that no one who is dead can choose Life. But, YOU were once dead in YOUR OWN trespasses and sins, and came short of GOD's Glory, yet, YOU managed to be Saved! How is it that GOD chose YOU, and not some others, when we were ALL dead in sin?? Especially when we know that GOD is not a respector of persons because the Bible tells us so. Is it that GOD had compassion for YOU, Mark V., but not for others?? GOD loved YOU, but, not so many others?? JOHN 3:16 says that GOD so loved the WORLD, Mark V. NOT just certain ones.
---Gordon on 3/6/13


//Doesn't John 17:9 then bring into question your understanding and "theory" of "free-will" you claim John 3:16 is implying?//

I am not claiming any theory of free-will. I just pointed out a verse that can posit a different opinion.
---Rod4Him on 3/6/13


TheSeg ...

Babies still in the womb,their mother's arms, the senile, the very young? Were they killed? I doubt it.

Coverning Moses, "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name." Exodus 33:17.

Only Moses found grace before the Lord and on that account the Lord repplied to Moses, "I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."
Consider this:

1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they holy."
---Nana on 3/6/13


And everyone else, another thing!

In Jude 1:4 it is said!
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,

What does this mean, they were ordained?
Does this mean they choose! If they choose, then they weren't ordained!

And if it was ordained, then who ordained it?
Is not God the only one who can ordain anything?
This is saying they were ordained to this condemnation!
So where is their free-willy-nilly to choice?
Doesn't say they choose this condemnation, does it?

Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


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kathr4453, No disrespect, and I know it doesn't say, But!

I would think after this happen, there were no blind people with them anymore. All the blind were killed right. Do you believe this?

Because I am just wondering!
If I was there and told a blind man, Moses is holding up a serpent.
And he believed me, would he have died?
I mean him not seeing it, and me seeing it for him?
Would he still have died?

I'm not looking for an answer.
Maybe more of an understanding.
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


LindaH, There is definitely something amiss with this misinterpretation of Predestination that is espoused by some people in the Church. These people believe that they can never lose THEIR Salvation, but, to Hell with the rest of Earth's population. I believe that MOST people will end up in Damnation, but, it's on account of their CHOICE to personally reject Salvation and to continue living their lives the way THEY want to. NOT because GOD HIMSELF has created them specifically to damn them, AS those who cling to the false interpretation of Predestination believe. There is a false sense of "security" in this way of believing.
---Gordon on 3/6/13


Mark V, You always accuse me of not presenting Scripture when I make my comments. How in GOD's Holy Name can you get around the Verse of ROMANS 2:11 that states that GOD is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS and yet, YOU CLAIM that HE DOES RESPECT PERSONS by choosing some to be Saved and others to be damned. The Bible is CLEAR, Mark V, GOD is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS. One person is no more worthy of Salvation or Damnation than anyone else. GOD Blesses HIS people in a great way when they obey and love and follow HIM. But, that would apply to ANYONE who comes to HIM. GOD tries to draw all to HIM, but, not all want HIM. Many are called, Mark, but, few chosen. What about the ones who WERE CALLED but not chosen? They were still CALLED, right, Mark V.????
---Gordon on 3/6/13


Lost men are slaves to sin because they choose to be.

The first example verse is the matter of Adam and Eve's sin in the garden of Eden.

God told them not to eat from the tree. The devil disguised as a serpent, persuaded them to eat from it.

They made the choice because they had free will. From that point onward there were those who did good, and those who did evil. Both by choice.
---jan4378 on 3/6/13


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sis. Shira, we all make choices that is true. But no sinner makes a choice whether he wants to be born of the Spirit or not. I didn't have a choice when God saved me. I did not say, I do not want to be save leave me spiritually dead. It's like when Jesus said to Lazarus who was dead four days,
"Lazarus, come forth" And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes.."
Did Lazarus say, "In my own free will, I do not want to be alive, that is my choice, I want to remain dead" No what he did was walked out alive. Could he have woken up by himself? No, a dead person has no choice but to remain dead. The same holds true for all those who are dead in trespasses and sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


"If after reading these verses you still believe in free will you must be illiterate." trey

When you say "illiterate", you're being very kind to the "free-willers". This is what Christ declared, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not."

Biblical term is simply called UN-BELIEVE. Yes, unbelievers pretending to be believers. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
---christan on 3/6/13


"I suppose one could say the same thing to one who still believes in no free will after reading John 3:16." Rod4Him

And was Christ contradicting His own words in John 3:16 when He prayed to His Father in John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

Doesn't John 17:9 then bring into question your understanding and "theory" of "free-will" you claim John 3:16 is implying?
---christan on 3/6/13


Rod4him, you mentioned (John 3:16) and no where does it state a person has free will. It doesn't even ask you to make a choice. It says "whoever believe in Him" should not perish.
And guess the opposite is,
"whoever doesn't believe will perish" The passage is not asking you to choose or saying you have a will that is free. In fact when you choose, you choice will be bias. Not neutral, free.

Kathr, you can take your serpent example, and your free will example and all your words to God. If He does not want to save you, He won't. You cannot make Him save you. While you are in bondage to sin, no one can take you out but the Lord if He so desires to do so. Almighty God is in charge not you.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


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//If after reading these verses you still believe in free will you must be illiterate.//

Apparently it makes one arrogant and rude...take a breath.

I suppose one could say the same thing to one who still believes in no free will after reading John 3:16.
---Rod4Him on 3/5/13


Markv, please go back to the OT concerning the serpent that Moses held up. No one was FORCED to look. Only those who looked were healed. Healing came AFTER looking not before. Jesus says our faith, is compared to holding up that serpent, and says we must hold up Jesus. John 3:14-17.

So to make some kind of gnostic theory about wills being free or not really has nothing to do with it. If you say sinners have no ability to LOOK UP as God promised healing and salvation, then you are calling God a liar.

Many did look up and were saved/healed. But not all. They didn't have to be regenerated first either to look up.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/13


Linda, the reform point of view is the fact that God is God, and man is just sinful man. That God rules in all things. In the essentails of the Christian faith, all three Persons of the Trinity are at work. The Father drawing unbelievers, Jesus Christ atoning for them with His death, and the Holy Spirit bringing spiritual life to them. All the work of God. We do not exhalt man for all he deserves is death. So instead of making up stories of what we believe, you should study first who Almighty God is, and after you do, you will be able to answer passages correctly. Jesus made it very clear that no one can come to Him unless they are drawn by the Father. You say they can come to Him, Jesus says they cannot. You exhalt man above God.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/13


Free will???
Php2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eze36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Joh6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

If after reading these verses you still believe in free will you must be illiterate.
---trey on 3/5/13


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MarkV and Linda - I guess the best way to answer is way of thinking between free will vs predestination leads to less pride and less self-righteousness and promotes evangelism and disciple making. "For I decided to know nothing ... except Jesus and him crucified" 1 cor 1:2.

---Scott1 on 3/5/13


markv, you are a very nice person. look back at your life how you probably made bad choices like everyone does. I have made many bad choices especially in my young days. I have the freedom to choose God or just stay in sin and go to hell. that is my choice. how did you get saved? did you choose when God called or did you not recognize God was calling. you made a choice somewhere and God gave us humans a choice in everything we do. I can't believe you think you don't have choices.
---shira4368 on 3/5/13


MarkV- you haven't explained the big difference between choices and free will.

Are you saying if we did not have the ability to choose, we would still have free will?

Please tell me the difference between choice and free will.
---David8318 on 3/5/13


Ruben, when Paul told the Corinthians with regards to Eve is to simply admonished them of the fruit of Eve, that is unbelief. Nothing about "free-will".

It's like he admonished the Philippians, "..but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Did Paul mean that they have the "free-will" to "work out your own salvation". NO!

That's because the following verse says, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:12,13 - see?

Scripture never teaches you about "free-will" of man. The whole Bible is not about choice specific but action specific.
---christan on 3/5/13


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All we know is that she disobeyed and sin against the command that God gave to Adam to not eat of the tree of good and evil.

And why mankind disobey God has nothing to do with "free-will" but is explicitly been declared and revealed in Scripture as the creation fulfilling God's will and purpose.

---christan on 3/5/13

If that is the case then why would Paul warn the Corinthians about Eve:


"I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. "
2 Corinthians 11:2-3
---Ruben on 3/5/13


christian,what I gave was no half truth,it was what actually happened,that's called history. Joshua in chapter 23 and also in 24 had warned the people not to go after other gods finally,due to his age and knowing he would soon die,he plainly told them do as they choose but he and his house chooses God. What he did was show them its all the True God or there is no god and if they followed false gods they could expect nothing from God Almighty. He laid out choices clearly the choice is God and without Him you can expect no favor or help.
---Darlene_1 on 3/5/13


Gordon, what is really at the core of Calvinist beliefs is a sense of self-righteousness: God must have picked them because their sins weren't as bad the others.

And Christan..

(Romans 11:25)
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Romans 11:32)
"For God hath concluded THEM all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all"

You guys are the kings of taking scripture out of context. There is nowhere in scripture where it says Gentiles are "concluded in unbelief". Find it! Its my challenge to you!
---LindaH on 3/5/13


Mark_V://If the only thing it can be use for is choosing God's will, how can it be free? // What about this:(1) we love that all persons in a country to abide with government rules (2)we love all family members not to go against family rules (3) It is the same in companies, churches, schools. We do not favour/support those acting contrary. Do we?
---Adetunji on 3/5/13


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Mark V, ROMANS 3:10 "...There is none righteous, no, NOT ONE." ROMANS 3:23, "For ALL have sinned, and come short of the Glory of GOD." ROMANS 2:11 "For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS WITH GOD." So, YOU ALSO, Mark V, were born in sin. YOU ALSO fell short of GOD's Glory. GOD is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS, including YOU, Mark V. For you're a person just like everybody else. You're no better than anyone else. Your sinful nature meant YOU were once a slave to sin. Yet, YOU managed to come to Salvation. You were a slave to sin. Yet, YOU are now GOD's (as you say). So, how did YOU manage to stop being a slave to sin, and, yet, you claim that there are others who CAN'T stop being slaves to sin. GOD RESPECTS YOU MORE??
---Gordon on 3/5/13


Adetjuni, you said,
"Yes, I believe God gave us a freewill but the only good thing it can be used for is, "choosing God's will"." If the only thing it can be use for is choosing God's will, how can it be free? That does not sound free to me. I believe a better example could have been used.
Let me put it this way,
If the will was free, it would be neutral. Free from any bias. It would have no reason for choosing one way or another. People make choices for a reason, our will, will not choose something it doesn't have a reason. Why would anyone choose Christ when it doesn't have a desire for Christ? His fall is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/13


Mark_V: Yes, I believe God gave us a freewill but the only good thing it can be used for is, "choosing God's will". Using it independently for anything apart from God's will is sinning (Isaiah 65:2, Joshua 1:7).
---Adetunji on 3/5/13


trey, how does Genesis 3:6 imply and justify that Eve acted out of her "own free-will"? All we know is that she disobeyed and sin against the command that God gave to Adam to not eat of the tree of good and evil.

And why mankind disobey God has nothing to do with "free-will" but is explicitly been declared and revealed in Scripture as the creation fulfilling God's will and purpose.

Isaiah 46:11, "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." and Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
---christan on 3/5/13


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David, here is what a slave is. in every case a slave is own by someone. The slave is free to make choices but never to leave. He remains a slave doing the desires of the one who owns him. He needs someone to buy him from that owner in order to be free from the owner he had.
The same holds true for all who are lost. They are slaves to sin, they are doing the desires of their father the devil who owns them. They have no choice in the matter. To be free from the devil they need to be bought, and Jesus Christ buys them with His own blood, and sets them free from that owner. But now they belongs to a new Owner, to our Godly Father. The person is now a slave to Christ. His will is to do the desires of the Lord. A person will is always bias.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/13


David 2: The will is the ability to choose. In the case of the lost, their will is to do the desires of their father the devil. (John 8:44,45) it is not free. Jesus said
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they that testify of Me. But you are "not willing" to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:39,40).
Their will is opposed to God. The lost are in the flesh, and Jesus said,
"It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). Man will not come to Christ unless God makes them able to come to Christ. Their disposition has to be change when He is regenerated. They need to be set free from bondage.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/13


Mark_V, man doesn't have "free will" as YOU define it, but he does have a CHOICE:

1. Call upon the name of the Lord for salvation (receive a "free will"/liberty/power over sin and live)

2. Reject the gospel of salvation (remain a slave to sin and die)

God is very clear on what He wants ALL men to choose. (1 Tim 2:1-4)(Col 1:25-29) Paul knew it was God driving him to present every man perfect in Jesus Christ. How is it that you don't know this?
---JackB on 3/4/13


Man's free will:
Gen3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

God's work:
Dan4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Jer18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

He's the potter. We are the clay.
---trey on 3/4/13


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"I did not ask if God gave you a choice, but if God gave you a will that was free? There is a big difference"- MarkV.

Would you care to enlighten us? What big difference is there between choice and free will?

Are you saying if we did not have the ability to choose we would still have free will?

If God did not give us the ability to choose, we do not have free will. We have God given freedom to choose what we will.

If you want a scripture to prove man has 'free will' (I don't think you'll find one), where does the Bible say 'the will of man is in bondage'?
---David8318 on 3/4/13


Darlene1, half-truth is no-truth at all. It would help some to understand the context of Joshua 24 not by using only verse 15 to justify your "free-will" theology and stop at there. That's because the context of Joshua 24 is not about "free-will", here's why - for in verse 19, Joshua made known to the Israelites,

"And Joshua said unto the people, YE CANNOT SERVE THE LORD, FOR HE IS AN HOLY GOD, he is a jealous God, he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

Point is, how can anyone even "choose" to be holy when they are born in sin after Adam? Doesn't one have to be "born of the Holy Spirit" by the will of God first?
---christan on 3/4/13


Persons who practice legalism "ALWAYS" FREELY CHOOSE to major in the minors, i.e., get themselves bogged down in nonessential details (in the weeds). Their explanations are "ALWAYS" too detailed, off topic & off track (derailed). Why? They're NOT WILLING nor are they trying to "reason with & persuade" you with the facts you already know to be true. Instead, "they want to convince" you to believe the way they do, regardless of the facts. After all, they're right & you're "ALWAYS" wrong, at least in their eyes! :)
---Leon on 3/4/13


Gen_3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, what is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So did Eve choose or did she tell the truth. When she said the serpent beguiled me.
Isnt that like being talk into something? If it is, well then, its not free will, is it.

If you want to judge her, well then she ate, guilty!
But if the serpent wasnt there would she have eaten?


Seems to me, Christ in the NT makes it clear.
Who is doing the choosing!
Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Mark_v
Seem even some devils are chosen! Mat_5:45!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/4/13


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David, maybe you did not understand the question. I did not ask if God gave you a choice, but if God gave you a will that was free? There is a big difference. And if He said He gave "free will" to man, where is that passage? I am speaking of the "will" of man. Is it free or is in bondage?
Not the ability to make choices. But if the choice you make is neutral or is it bias? If the will is free, meaning it does not have a desire one way or another how can it choose?
---Mark_V. on 3/4/13


'I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life'- Deut.30:19 (KJV).

'But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve'- Josh.24:15 (NIV).

'How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him, but if Baal, follow him'- 1 Kings 18:21 (NAS).

'Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways'- Pr,3:31 (NIV).

'Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?'- Romans 6:16 (NAS).

We are free to choose.
---David8318 on 3/4/13


Yes, Adam and Eve choose (will) to eat the fruit. Did God know they would eat the fruit? yes, He is at all time points but created us anyway even though we would turn away. King Nebuchadnezzar is continually call a servant of God. Meaning Nebuchadnezzar in his free will actions accomplishes the will of God. We obvously know that Neb. was not seeking after God. Romans 8:28 "...all things work together for good..."
---Scott1 on 3/4/13


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