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Peter, John & James Sleeping

Were Peter, John and James awake or asleep? In Luke 9:29, when the fashion of his countenance was altered!

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 ---TheSeg on 3/4/13
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we have a black preacher that preaches on the street and some housing areas. when he prays, my hair stands up on my arm. he is a man of God and he preaches the gospel no matter who is around. he is my friend and a devout Christian. don't see many preachers preach on the street. maybe some are ashamed but bro. marvin don't care what anyone thinks or says about him.
---shira4368 on 3/29/13


\\Being able to WHIP OUT beautiful prayers coming from the heart is possibly that through the Power of the Holy Spirit.\\
---Kathr4453

Excellent point indeed. At one church I attended for two years, I heard one man prophesy about 4 times. It was amazingly articulate and never a mis-step, hesitation, or repeating of phrases over and over.

I was so convinced that this was of the Holy Spirit, that it wouldn't surprise me if this man normally stuttered like Jimmy Stewart


\\those who are Born Again DO know the difference when we hear prayer.
---kathr4453

I don't know if I'd go that far. Some aren't as discerning as others
---James_L on 3/29/13


Being able to WHIP OUT beautiful prayers coming from the heart is possibly that through the Power of the Holy Spirit. If those prayers are steeped with the Word of God then YES it is the Holy Spirit praying THROUGH US....

But those rehearsed long even eloquent prayers whether RCC or Protestant or anyone is only SELF, and those who are Born Again DO know the difference when we hear prayer.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/13


There was a difference between the Puritans and Pilgrims. The Puritans believed in a CORPORATE Righteousness whereas the Pilgrims believed in an individual Righteousness before God. If you look at the behavior of the Puritans in MA, you will see the state itself was a theocratic state, meaning that of Corporate Righteousness. So was Geneva, and we see that did not work. The ONLY Theocracy in scripture was Israel, and it cannot be reproduced through the RCC or the Puritan idea of Kingdom Now Theology which is so legalistic its not even funny. Saved by Grace but kept under the thumb by legalism is not Christianity, but a perverted form. Yes the Puritans wanted that same corporate control over England, and the Church of England.
---kathr4453 on 3/28/13


of course it happened before king james bible but it didn't happen during Christ days. all scripture is for doctrine. I never said king james put that in my bible. God did. you can take it up with God. I was explaining why I am not a catholic. as far as people being mean to each other, that includes the world. the church should sit on a hill and let her light shine to a lost and dying world. it isn't God's fault that churches have gone to hell in a handbag.
---shira4368 on 3/28/13




**\james you don't know what you are talking about. we know how catholics treated christians in times past.\\**

And we Orthodox know how Protestants treat Christians even now.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/13


\\Jesus Christ is our entercessor but catholics pray to mary.\\

When I was a Baptist, back before I got saved, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/28/13


Shira---
\\james you don't know what you are talking about. we know how catholics treated christians in times past.\\

What about the way Protestants treated each other?

\\my bible teaches....
Jesus Christ is our entercessor but catholics pray to mary...
not to call no man father\\

They were doing this long before your King James Bible existed.


Baptists refer to a building as God's house, denying the believer as the temple of God

Baptists say "sinner's prayers" which are anti-scriptural

I've read more about grace in the Catechism of the Catholic Church than I have in most Protestant writings.

I have a CCC and have read about 85% of it, so I know what it teaches
---James_L on 3/27/13


\\We Catholics marvel at how some Protestants can whip out beautiful prayers....\\
---Nikki

Many Protestants who say these eloquent prayers have learned to be great orators.

And if you listen, many are more-or-less mini sermons to jockey the listeners into a particular frame of thinking. I've been guilty of this. At one church, I said the closing prayer for each service. And it was a mini sermon to drive MY point


\\Mine are rough around the edges and to the point.
God is good, He hears my prayers anyway.\\
---Nikki

God loves hoenesty and transparency.

There are times when all I can muster is "God, I can't find any words to express myself. I just know I need you now"
---James_L on 3/27/13


\\You want "Old School" read a book called "Trail of Blood". It documents the history of the Baptist Church from the time Christ established it\\

The book is full of historical errors.

Among other things, it claims that Baptists were descended from the Waldensians.

If this were true, why did the Waldensians become Presbyterians in the USA?

Why did the Waldensians in Italy merge with Italian Methodists?

BTW--both Presbyterians and Methodists practice infant baptism by sprinking, unlike Baptists.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/13




shira4368 if you're looking for God's real home, his church look within yourself. Don't let anyone say it's in my church!

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And they shall say to you, See here, or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

God's husbandries, temple, building our house are we.
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands, as saith the prophet
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/28/13


nikki, I could find a web site that said the opposite of what you say.no one can trust a web site. I understand you are not trying to convert me. that would never happen anyway. thanks for your input. God bless
---shira4368 on 3/28/13


..why the pilgrims came to America.---shira4368

The Puritans wanted to be free from religious prosecution in England.
During the 1620s England's economy suffered. Many people lost their jobs. The English king, Charles I, made the situation worse by raising taxes. This unpopular act led to a political crisis. At the same time, the Church of England began to punish Puritans because they were dissenters, or people who disagree with official opinions. King Charles refused to allow Puritans to criticize church actions.-- Website.

1620, it was after Henry the VIII, and his Daughter Elizabeth. They were not Catholic, but Protestants.

I not trying to convert you. But, I just want the truth, not myth told about my Church.
---Nikki on 3/27/13


nikki, you are catholic and you believe like catholics. I am Baptist and I believe like a Baptist. I don't want to be a catholic and you don't want to be a Baptist. better go back and read history concerning why the pilgrims came to America.
---shira4368 on 3/27/13


Shira, Lord bless you sister!!!

You want "Old School" read a book called "Trail of Blood". It documents the history of the Baptist Church from the time Christ established it, and how the members have been killed by the millions.
---trey on 3/27/13


..what do you think the pilgrims came to america for? they were persecuted by catholics...--shira4368 3/27/13

Pilgrims came to America because they were being persecuted by other Protestants not Catholics.
Catholic were being persecuted by Protestants in England and Ireland so they came to America.

"mary was a christian but she was in no way deity."--shira

No, she was a Jew, and the RCC doesn't claim she is a deity.
Yes, we pray to Mary, but not worship. There is a difference.
Prayer is a form of communication. Even the English spoke in the past by saying 'I pray you,....' Watch PBS

"priest has no authority to forgive sins."--shira
John 20:22-23 Jesus gave the authority to them.
---Nikki on 3/27/13


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Prayers are about as ritualistic too. Pay attention when people in your church pray out loud..--James_L on 3/26/13

You know you are right. We Catholics marvel at how some Protestants can whip out beautiful prayers at the top of the heads.
We have Church prayers and private prayers, but my prayers never seem as eloquent as others.
Mine are rough around the edges and to the point.
God is good, He hears my prayers anyway.

My last statement was kinda funny. God laughs as well.
---Nikki on 3/27/13


james you don't know what you are talking about. we know how catholics treated christians in times past. what do you think the pilgrims came to america for? they were persecuted by catholics. my bible teaches Jesus Christ is our entercessor but catholics pray to mary. mary was a christian but she was in no way deity. my bible tells me not to call no man father but catholics call the priest father. catholics confess sins to a priest when the priest has no authority to forgive sins.
---shira4368 on 3/27/13


\\It seems as if we (RCC) are doing strange things.\\
---Nikki on 3/26/13

Hmmm. peculiar people? - Deut 14:2, 1Pet 2:9

Just kidding. I just thought it was funny


\\I am from the old school.\\
---shira4368 on 3/24/13

It doesn't get any more old school than Roman Catholic or Orthodox
---James_L on 3/26/13


she told me about the rituals she use to participate in. its not my business to condemn you unless I am brought into a conversation that degrades my faith.--shira4368 on 3/26/13

I don't feel like you are condemning me because I haven't degraded your faith. I just made a suggestion because you stated you were looking for a church home and you were old school.

But, if you don't mind, could you share some of the rituals your daughter-in-law had to endure?
It seems as if we (RCC) are doing strange things.

I am not looking for a fight or argument. I just want to explain anything that might seem odd to you.
---Nikki on 3/26/13


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Shira,

"the rituals" of Roman Catholics only have as much meaning as is compatible with the condition of a person's heart.

I attend a Southern Baptist church, and it is as ritualistic as Rome or anybody else.

Service:
song, prayer, announcements, song, song, prayer, special song, offering, sermon, song, altar call - Every Week.

Even Charismatics, who seek spontenaety, do it the same virtually every week

Prayers are about as ritualistic too. Pay attention when people in your church pray out loud

Bob's prayers all sound alike, Nancy's prayers all sound alike. Judith's prayers all sound alike, etc.
---James_L on 3/26/13


nikki, no I have not been to a catholic service and I have no desire to either. I once went to a funeral in a catholic church. catholic beliefs are so far from what I believe. my daughter-in-law was catholic until she was saved. she told me about the rituals she use to participate in. its not my business to condemn you unless I am brought into a conversation that degrades my faith.
---shira4368 on 3/26/13


Shira4368, have you visited a Catholic Church?
---Nikki on 3/26/13


seg, some here have washed their brains. I totally agree with you. there is not many churches that doesn't have one bit of Holy Spirit in their services. I have been to them around my hometown trying to find a church home. I am from the old school.
---shira4368 on 3/24/13


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we just need an old fashion singing shoutin church!
I'm down with that!

Psa_7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

I don't see one thing wrong with washing feet.
That's probably because there is nothing wrong with it.
I would gladly wash anyone feet. Praise the LORD!

Somehow I feel we all washed each other feet, here.
Again may God bless and keep you, all of you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/23/13


seg, either way would be humbling. I have never done that but growing up my dad pastored a church that did that. I don't see one thing wrong with washing feet and I would do it but we live in a different society today. everyone must be "politically" correct even at church. we just need an old fashion singing shoutin church. churches are so stiff necked, the spirit don't have a chance. I like your input seg, thanks
---shira4368 on 3/23/13


shira4368, please forgive me and don't be offended!
I'm just explaining.

You said:
seg the person who is doing the feet washing is the one who must be humble.

Yes it look that way, doesn't it.
Now I want you to sit down.
I'm going to send someone to wash your feet, his name is Jesus Christ.
I am not trying to be funny here!

Now answer me truthfully.
Are you or are you not, humble?

The King is not telling you to wash feet.
He is telling you to let your feet be washed!
I don't know if this makes sense to you.
Maybe just live with it, for a time.
I don't look at things like most.
And may God bless you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/23/13


seg the person who is doing the feet washing is the one who must be humble. I would have to be very very humble to wash feet. growing up my church did wash feet. personally I never did it but Jesus encouraged all to wash feet.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


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Wow trey
Talk about washing someone feet!
And at the same time humbling them!
You just put me on the floor!
Thank you and God bless you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/18/13


trey thanks for the sweet words. not many agree with me but its ok, I'm use to it by now. I still know the truth. many don't rightly divide the Word of God. I appreciate your stand for God.
---shira4368 on 3/18/13


Hi Seg,

Pleasse do not think for a minute that I was mad at you! You, Mark V, Christian, Shira, Kathr, and many of the others, I count as friends. Many times I have read your post and agreed whole heartedly with what you are saying.

Lord bless you dear brother, you show true understanding, and I appreciate your loyalty to the cause of Christ!!!
---trey on 3/18/13


trey, again sorry please dont be mad at me.

I agree, and even if they were awake it was they who were not themselves.
You know spiritually asleep!

The one that get me is:
Joh 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord.

Joh 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.

A man can see the lord God and not even know it's him.
Now this is nuts! I believe I saw the lord.
But, it wasn't even a man. But it was the lord.
Or I believe it is!

Yea! I am done to a turn!
God bless you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/14/13


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Luke9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

Gill states that the Syriac version says, "scarcely awake", and the Ethiopic version adds the word "suddenly".

It seems to me that all three apostles were dozing and just as they awoke they saw Jesus glorified. They then watched the conversation. Peter, at a loss for what to say, says "let us make three tabernacles." (One for the law, one for the prophets, and one for Christ.) The Lord the speaks: "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him!" meaning Christ is superior to the law and the prophets.
---trey on 3/13/13


jan4378
I could point out a particular difference if space allowed.

Please, do tell, there is plenty of space!
Feel free to point it out, (the particular difference in the glory of God) as coming from scriptures, expressed in your own way of speaking. I am all ears!

Now!
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

But not God, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, unchanging in everything!
My opinion differs greatly from yours, as you see!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/13/13


---TheSeg on 3/11/13

The visions I've had are valued by me. I will not put a numerical value on them for you.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is yours!

You're entitled to assume it was an opinion. It is actually a statement coming from scriptures, expressed in my own way of speaking.

Jesus was glorified by God before the world was!
This is not a different glory but the same glory.


I could point out a particular difference if space allowed.

You don't feel Christ walked in this world in glory?

I said no such thing.

Everyone saw his glory, just some couldn't believe it.
Not given!
Peace


By your standards, the above is your opinion.
---jan4378 on 3/13/13


Putting this life at five!
On a scale of one to ten in reality, where would you put your vision?
Not saying it's important, just curious.

They didn't actually see him as he is until he was resurrected in his glorified body. The transfiguration was a preview of coming events.
jan4378
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is your!

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
(with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.)

Jesus was glorified by God before the world was!
This is not a different glory but the same glory.
You don't feel Christ walked in this world in glory?
Everyone saw his glory, just some couldn't believe it.
Not given!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/11/13


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---TheSeg on 3/6/13
So I take it none of you had ever had a vision.
Now I dont know if all visions are the same.


I have had two visions. One while reading. The second while praying. I was definitely awake both times. I did not request God for either of them.

Well for that it worth, why don't I believe they were awake?
Because they said there was a Transfiguration, his countenance was altered.
When all they really did was saw him for the first time as he really his.


They didn't actually see him as he is until he was resurrected in his glorified body. The transfiguration was a preview of coming events.
---jan4378 on 3/10/13


I think we're saying the same thing in different words.
Maybe you're right!

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/8/13


**After Pentecost, St. John saw the glory of the Ascended Son even more fully in Revelation.
Cluny

St. John saw?
Maybe you mean, Then opened he their understanding.**

I think we're saying the same thing in different words.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/13


After Pentecost, St. John saw the glory of the Ascended Son even more fully in Revelation.
Cluny

St. John saw?
Maybe you mean, Then opened he their understanding.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

This also was given. No one can see unless it is given.
And no one has to BEAR anything, nor can they!

Mat_6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Even before you ask him!

And ain't the truth!
God bless Cluny
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/7/13


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\\When all they really did was saw him for the first time as he really his.\\

Well, they saw His glory AS FAR AS THEY COULD BEAR IT.

After Pentecost, St. John saw the glory of the Ascended Son even more fully in Revelation.

August 6 is the Feast of the Transfiguration. If you look on line, you can find the Orthodox hymns for that day, which should provide fruit for meditation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/7/13


Thanks, I have to remember these things.
Spiritual intoxication, waking vision, metaphor, mystical experiences and my favorite phenomenon!

So I take it none of you had ever had a vision.
Now I dont know if all visions are the same.
But sometimes a thing could be more real than this actual life.
But that only would make sense.

Well for that it worth, why don't I believe they were awake?
Because they said there was a Transfiguration, his countenance was altered.
When all they really did was saw him for the first time as he really his.

Please don't read anything more into this then what is said.
There are no steps between Christ and God.
No Transfiguration, nothing was altered.
Again thanks
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


\\What I am asking is, do you believe they saw it as it happen, were they watching as Jesus was transformed, from one to the other?\\

I'll take the Biblical accounts at face value.

Mark Eaton might have a good turn of phrase with "spiritual intoxication," but St. Seraphim and his friend Nicholas Motovilov had a similar experience to the Transfiguration, and remained coherent.

But I will admit that true mystical experiences and visions given by God, such as these, really defy human language and thought.

The ultimate tests of any such experience are these: What doctrine comes with them? What is the fruit of this phenomenon in the lives of those involved?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/6/13


There is such a thing as a waking vision. Luke 9:32
Such visions are the ability to see into the spirit realm.

Like the example in the old testament of the prophet's servant. The prophet asked God to open his eyes so that he could see the multitude of angels surrounding them.

The "opening of his eyes" was a metaphor. He was already awake, but was unable to see into the spirit realm until God answered the prophet's request.
Such is an old testament example of "the discerning of spirits" listed in the new testament.
---jan4378 on 3/6/13


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I find this story curious.

Peter as we know, was a fisherman. I confess I do not know much about fishing in the Sea of Galilee, but most fisherman I have known (commercial and sport) would be able to stay up late without falling asleep. In fact, they would routinely fish at night. They could easily stay up late, unless they were intoxicated.

And perhaps that is what has happened here. Perhaps the Spiritual intoxication was so thick that mere mortals were unable to withstand it. People describe being "slain" in the Spirit as a pressure that cannot be stopped. Perhaps, this event was the real deal for Peter, James and John.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/6/13


Cluny, I am not saying they didn't witness it, they are the witnesses of it.
Clearly they saw him standing there in his glory with Moses and Elijah.
This is clear!

What I am asking is, do you believe they saw it as it happen, were they watching as Jesus was transformed, from one to the other?

Were their eyes always focused on Christ?
Is this the understanding of what was said in Luk_9:32?
Because I don't believe they saw it happen. No one ever did!

willie_c: but then they saw them - - once all was first prepared, I consider.
Scott1, Very, very well said!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/6/13


In Luke 9:29-32 > He went with the three "up on the mountain to pray. As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening."

"But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep, and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him."

So, to me it seems they were asleep while Jesus' "face was altered". And then they came awake to see him and Moses and Elijah.

So, they were asleep while His face was being altered, but then they saw them - - once all was first prepared, I consider.
---willie_c: on 3/5/13


If you're talking about the Transfiguration, they were awake, and beheld Jesus glowing with the Uncreated Light, a visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit. (Compare this with Acts 2 and the cloven tongues of fire, or the Burning Bush seen by Moses.)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/4/13


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Both, I like verse 32. Jesus was there in glory with Elijah and Moses but only when they were paying attention (awake) did they see Christ in glory.
We so get caught up in the noise of christianity that we miss the glory of Jesus and what he is trying to tell us.
---Scott1 on 3/5/13


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