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Does The Law Lead To Christ

Sctipture tells us the Law of Moses is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Why do some reject this truth claiming election based on nothing but God's good humor. Is the Law then a farce? Are all the types and shadows then a big joke?

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 ---kathr4453 on 3/8/13
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"sin is breaking Gods laws only those keeping Gods laws are righteous with his laws written on hearts through the Holy Spirit Romans 7:6" FOC

This is Romans 7:6, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." How do you even reconcile what you've said to what Paul has written? Not even close!

You missed out this: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." You say, "only those keeping Gods laws are righteous". What a contradiction to Romans 10:4, you're basically a worker of iniquity.
---christan on 3/13/13


And what exactly is your criterion for determining which things God told Moses do not apply to us? Do you have a smorgasbord type of religion?

1 Corinthians 10:9-12 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


So Leej, are YOU now speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Make up your mind. So you like to pick and choose too ...correct? Such hypocritical nonsense you state.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13
SDA church did not make up the fact that christian are defined by keeping the laws of God AND faith in jesus

Rev 14:12 the saints: are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This has been the standard from the start:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

It is the goal of the devil to get people to SIN ( trangress the laws of God)

But this does not happend to God's elect: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4

God's ability to keep us from sin, is greater than satan's ability to get us to sin
---francis on 3/13/13


kathr4453 //Leej, You still don't get that the LAW of Moses and the Prophets is what PAUL USED with Gentiles in Acts 28 to bring GENTILES LIKE YOURSELF to Christ. The SAME Law as we discussed on another blog that was TAUGHT and LEARNED by the JEWS to bring them to justifying faith.

What you fail to realize is that Paul and the other Apostles used the OT scripture to prove that Jesus was the Promised Messiah. Those that accepted that fact and truly believed received Jesus into their lives and were born of His Spirit.

It was NOT the teaching of the law - something the Jews already knew - that brought them to conviction.
---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13


Follower of Christ //HAS ANYOEN READ ANY POST WHERE I PROPOSED SALVATION BY LAW?

While most Adventists will say they do not believe that salvation is by works of the law, they really speak out of both sides of their mouths as they simply state that those who do not observe ALL the 10 commandments are really not Christians and thus cannot be saved.

One of the pillars of Adventism, the Investigative Judgement is a judgment totally on works of the believer to determine if the believer merits eternal life.

While you may not be an Adventist, it would not surprise me that you have enough commonality with Adventism, to have much the same views.

Sabbaterians are rarely known for their Biblical knowledge.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13




FofC//The enemies of God are against God (Rom 8:7) they are the children of disobedience they do not obey Gods 10 laws and are not subject to them

Sabbaterians think obedience to 10 commandments makes a person righteous.

Romans 8:3-4 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

To walk by the law instead of by Gods Spirit means you are walking according to the flesh and NOT the Spirit.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


Romans 6:16-17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

A servant to the spirit of disobedience Ephesians 2:2

Or a servant to the Lord through obedience to Gods 10 laws Exodus 19:5

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Also Daniel 9:4, John 14:15,21,23, and 15:10

sin is breaking Gods laws only those keeping Gods laws are righteous with his laws written on hearts through the Holy Spirit Romans 7:6
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/12/13


kathr4453// God did say this to MOSES. Moses under the LAW. God said a lot of things to Moses that does not apply to you or me.

And what exactly is your criterion for determining which things God told Moses do not apply to us? Do you have a smorgasbord type of religion?

1 Corinthians 10:9-12 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


FOC, you use 1 Peter 1:22 to tell us we can purify our own souls that have sinned against God? Wow! That's really "deep". Deep from the pits of hell! That's like saying, the dead man can resurrect himself from the dead! How can someone who's sinful "purify himself" to become a Holy being, which God is?

You also say, "Those without Gods Holy Spirit have the spirit of disobedience Ephesians 2:2 and they are not subject to the laws of God Romans 8:7" - if you have the spirit of disobedience, how are you not subject to the law? Isn't it because of the law that you know you are in disobedience to God in the first place?

Truly amazing...
---christan on 3/12/13


Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after,

430 years after Egyot is not the ten commandments,

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

All ten commandments were known before Moses received that law ( schoolmaster).

That law the school master was added to us, because of our violation of the ten commandments to show the plan or reddemption, how Jesus would die for our sins
---francis on 3/13/13




Gal 3:16-25 ...the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after...It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made...[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
---micha9344 on 3/12/13


Nahum 1:2
"... the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

The enemies of God are against God (Rom 8:7) they are the children of disobedience (hence they do not obey Gods 10 laws and are not subject to them)

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience

Vain words are from the law breakers those who teach Gods 10 laws were abolished teaching the antichrist doctrine you have a license to sin in Christ as warned in Jude 1:4
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/12/13



Where's the part about "obeying God's laws"?
---christan on 3/11/13


Per GOD the "part about obeying" is clearly provided in: Acts 5:32 (as I previously provided in my post)

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

Those without Gods Holy Spirit have the spirit of disobedience Ephesians 2:2 and they are not subject to the laws of God Romans 8:7
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/12/13


What calvinists fail to tell you or believe or understand is that Romans 9 "concludes" in Romans 11, that in the end, after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, ALL ISRAEL will be saved. God WILL have mercy on them.

A DELIVER will "come out of SION this time",, not Mary's womb, who is Jesus Christ the Glorified Risen Christ not the deliver Moses. You say, what RIGHT does He have to do this? His SOVEREIGN RIGHT LeeJ, and there is NOTHING YOU can do about it. America is not going to Save Israel or anyone else, Jesus Christ Himself will save Israel.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


Oh and this is that "Jot and Tittle" that has not yet been fulfilled God Promised MOSES, as well as Jacob. It has to do with LAND as well. Isaiah 14, Zechariah 12-14, Ezekiel 36 just to name a few places this is PROMISED having nothing to do with the CHURCH.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


Romans 9:15-1615 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


Well Yes Lee, God did say this to MOSES. Moses under the LAW. God said a lot of things to Moses that does not apply to you or me.

Are you in bondage to some Pharoah in Egypt? TODAY I mean, as God's already elect people? Well if so, shame on you.

God also showed mercy to those who made a Golden calf...again His Elect people, and did not kill them as "Moses interceeded for them",

Put away YOUR Golden Calf Calvin, and let Jesus be the mediator between you and God.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


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---christan on 3/12/13
Are you aware that you are talking about an entirely different thing than the blog is asking?

the blog is talking about the old covenant sanctuary services and it's pointing to Jesus as passover lamb, high priest, and so on.

You are talking about the ten commandments
---francis on 3/12/13


.
kathr4453//Where do THEY get out of this "election of only certain people"?

I believe they get it from the following verses -

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

May I ask you what would happen if God did NOT draw one to Himself for salvation?

If you answered that they will perish, you got the right answer!

A verse you really rail against is Romans 9:15-16

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,

See Chriatan., the EXACT faith these not yet saved men demonstrated through "animal sacrifice", that not only could not wash away sin, much less make anyone PERFECT, meaning (In Christ, a New Creature, Born Again Regenerate person washed WHITE AS SNOW) is the exact same FAITH one now puts in the Blood of Jesus Christ. Those animal sacrifices were also a schoolmaster teaching Gentiles as well about salvation I'm sure Paul used in Acts 28.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


There's no such thing as being so depraved you can't know what sin is. The Pharisees rejected Jesus as being "their EXPECTED" Messiah because they didn't like how humbly He came into this world. It wasn't good enough for them. A carpenters son, of lowely social ranks among the high and lofty Pharisees. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with being so depraved they didn't know they needed a savior. They just didn't like the one God sent.


Much like LeeJ's attitude here towards those he considers beneath him.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


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Where do THEY get out of this "election of only certain people"? If the Law points to SIN, as it does, then man is capable of knowing what SIN IS. AND if sacrifices were made daily for sin, again one then KNOWS what sin is. No depravity there. SO, THEY want you to believe NOW with all this, Jesus being the Lamb of God who fulfilled the Law and prophets is something hidden? How so? They put faith in the animal sacrifice to "cover sin" UNTIL... correct, but NOW Once "and for all" contradicts your theory.

The Mercy Seat was no MYSTERY only the elect understood either after their regeneration through a sacrament of "water baptism" that Calvin teaches in the Calvin Westminster Confession of faith!
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


Such are the depraved hearts of some that they cannot even fathom what Christ declared and fulfilled when He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Fulfilled He did when He died at Calvary.

These foolish ones lacks knowledge of how sin is even known, but Scripture will help - "for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Did Christ teach any other gods but His Father? Did He kill anyone? Your answers to this has to be an emphatic NO! And since He didn't break any of these laws, He was the perfect lamb without blemish that God demanded of a life. In this He fulfilled ALL the laws that earned Him righteousness from the Father!
---christan on 3/12/13


So christan tell us HOW Jesus fulfilled, "thou shall have no other God's before me?" or Thou shall not kill?

Me thinks you still don't get it. Jesus fulfilled the PENALTY for SIN. Our sin was placed on Jesus He was the Lamb of God. WHY THEN are Jews in Hebrews 10 being WARNED about still sacrificing animals, trampling underfoot the Son of God insulting the Spirit of Grace?

Would such a warning to the depraved unelect blind be made in the first place. Of coarse not.

And christan "Every JOT and Tiddle". has not yet come to pass....The Kingdom reign was also in the Law and prophets. That will come to pass when Jesus reigns and rules 100 years!
---kathr4453 on 3/11/13


Christ FULFILLED every one of the moral and customary laws that was given to the Jews. Or He wouldn't have declared, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

And FULFILLED He did by giving up His life for the sins of His people. The demand of the law, "For the wages of sin is death" was paid for with His life and only was His life "a sweet savour before the Lord".
---christan on 3/11/13


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Law as fulfilled by Jesus:
Earhly sanctuary ->The true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2

Earthly high priest -> Christ being an high priest Hebrews 9:11

Passover Lamb -> Christ our Passover 1 Cor5:7

Temple Veil -> his flesh, Hebrews 10:20

Blood of animals -> the blood of Christ,Hebrews 9:14

Wine -> Christ blood of the new testament,Mark 14:24

Show Bread -> this is my body Mark 14:22

Circumcision -> the blessing of Abraham...we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith Galatians 3:14
the offence of the cross Galatians 5:11
---francis on 3/11/13


"The Hebrews could not obey Gods laws without the Holy Spirit" FOC

Was that why the Holy Spirit was given? "To obey God's laws"? Gee, then Christ must have been lying about the Holy Spirit purpose and mission when He said,

"And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment... Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Where's the part about "obeying God's laws"?
---christan on 3/11/13


Kathr, I told you already no truth can enter your heart. You say.
"WOW that's really revealing. So you really can do anything you want and excuse yourself from disobedience, claiming it was God's will all along."
God willed that one day you would be a heretic and speak against Him. If He did not want you to do that, He could have sent you to hell already, but permits you to go on. You are in the plan of God for a purpose that only God knows.
Just maybe He will will that you be saved, or maybe He will will to drop you into the pit of hell. It's all up to God. Your future is in His hands.
"A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps" (Prov. 16:9). God is in control of all things.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/13


Leej, this is not about Adventists, but everyone in general who fail to see that the LAW is a schoolmaster that we can use today to bring someone to Christ.

If it worked for Paul in Acts 28, with GENTILES, believe me, it can work today. Same God, Same Jesus Same Holy Spirit.

Seeing Christ in the Tabernacle TYPES and SHADOWS is the very foundation of the Gospel In more ways that you could ever know. If one is building on another foundation, it's not the Jesus Christ of Scripture.

You say some believe it doesn't atone for all our sin....yet you all teach it doesn't atone for anyone but your secret society.

YOU used this to assault another without really answering the question.

Your grade D-.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/13


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And furthermore LeeJ, Francis and Jerry's answers were FANTASTIC. YOU started with insults never seeing the QUESTION, while Francis understood completely,and has said NOTHING HERE that you accuse him . Peter feels the question is hard because to appears to contradict election, based on nothing. It actually EXPOSES election based on nothing, the question is a threat.

You only hear what YOU want to hear, and that many times is not even the subject.

Francis and I don't agree on many things BUT here we found a place where we do and can, and with that earned respect to continue to listen to one another . THAT's how it works. The FRUIT of Righteousness is sown in pease to those who make peace.

You all only sew contention.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/13


kathr4453
//What LAW do you suppose He fulfilled??? The 10 commandments? NO! That's not what He fulfilled.

Totally agree! And Jesus in dying on the Cross fulfilled the law in toto and paid the penalty for our sins - past, present, and future.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

And that is why Paul would say But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Gal.6:14.

Some however, maintain that the Cross did not make complete atonement for us.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


Leej, not only did God give Moses the 10 commandments but God also told Moses to built the Tabernacle EXACTLY as things were in heaven. God told Moses EXACTLY how to build it. Hebrews 9 qualifies this.

Now, Hebrews takes that earthly Tabernacle, explaining to Jews that the Tabernacle was a type and Shadow of Jesus....giving step by step explanation of each and every thing right down to the Levitical Priesthood. The Holy of Holies and so on.

This is about the WHOLE of the Law Leej, not just 10 commandments.
The whole of Galatians is that CHRIST FULFILLED THE LAW. He was/is the Lamb of God. What LAW do you suppose He fulfilled??? The 10 commandments? NO! That's not what He fulfilled.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/13


//Gentiles were never under the Law, however, remember Israel was a LIGHT to the Nations.

While scripture attests to that fact we also see from Scripture that Gentiles knew what was morally right.

In fact Scripture tells us they could even do what the law commanded.

Romans 2:14 HCSB So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law.

What really irritates your Adventists friends is how Gentiles instinctively did what the law required but did not observe the dietary laws or the Sabbath.

Maybe you can throw some right onto how the Gentiles did what was the law required but did not observe all the 10 commandments?
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


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---christan on 3/10/13
Exodus 25:1-40 the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,..
let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them... And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

Hebrews 8:4-5 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and SHADOW of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The NT confirms that the earthly sanctuary, and all of it's services were a shadow, pointing to Jesus and his ministry in the heavenly sanctuary
---francis on 3/10/13


//Please show scripture backing up where Paul stated they were too ignorant to understand and they needed YOU to explain it to them.

View

1 Cor. 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh.
Heb 5:12-13 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
We need the teachers the Lord has given to His church if we are to understand scripture.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


Ephesians 2:11 ye in time past Gentiles in the flesh,.. ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world

But anyone who desired to know and serve God was subject to all the laws of God

Numbers 15:14 if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD, as ye do, so he shall do. One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
---francis on 3/10/13


Rod4him, ultimately I am doing the will of God when I sin. Everything was included in the plan of God. Not one thing was left out, and God did not make any mistakes.
---Mark_V. on 3/10/13

WOW that's really revealing. So you really can do anything you want and excuse yourself from disobedience, claiming it was God's will all along.

Can anyone find scripture to prove this is a false statement against God. God can't even look at sin, much less tell Markv it was His will all along.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/13


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//The Law points to the same Christ for a Jew or Gentile.//

I like, "it's points to Christ," which reminds me that the "Torah" actually means "teachings," rather than a legal law system.
---Rod4Him on 3/10/13


Francis //These Nethinims (1 Chr. 9:2) were assimilated into Israel. They started out as Gentiles, then because the ones who knew the mechanics of running the earthly sanctuary.

And the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done to Jericho and Ai, they deceived Joshua who made a pact with them and were assimilated into the nation of Israel. Jos. 9:3f

Your belief that believers in Christ had to become adherents of Judaism (less physical circumcision) is clearly a false assumption.Acts 15

And your belief that God wrote the Sabbath commandment unto believers hearts has no basis or reasoning from either Scripture or from the leaders of the early church, many of whom were direct successors of the Apostles themselves.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


kathr//When they CHOOSE out of their own free will to step out of Calvin's shadow, there is hope, there is hope.

The belief held by Calvins interpretation of Scripture which you have the most objections to are those that speak of the sovereign will of God.

Romans 9:14-16 Is there injustice on Gods part? By no means! For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends NOT on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Perhaps your real problem is that you want to argue with God for what He has made of you. Some are made of the clay that is too hard for God to mold giving the free will He has given you.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


law of Moses known as mosaic laws, 613 laws created by Moses as ceremonies rituals and symbols to remind Hebrews of Gods 10 perfect laws. These 613 mosaic laws were added ordinances the schoolmaster to obedience, and the Lord nailed 613 ordinances to the cross taking them out of the way Colossians 2:14.

The Hebrews could not obey Gods laws without the Holy Spirit which is now given to those (through faith) who are baptized and obey Gods 10 laws Acts 5:32

Now these 10 laws of God are written on hearts (minds) of Believers of the Lord Jesus, and through strength of Lord acting in us by his Holy Spirit a Believer can obey Gods 10 perfect laws, when we stumble, while working to overcome, our high priest Lord Jesus has mercy.
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/10/13


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A man can "CHOOSE" out of his "free-will" to have faith in Jesus Christ? Let's see:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8. That's what I thought: "faith... is the gift of God" Where does it teach that a man can by his "free-will" ask God for faith? In their minds!

Clearly these "free-willers" still have no answer to Christ teaching that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." What "free-will"? Only God has "free-will" and "He does as He pleases in the heavens"!
---christan on 3/10/13


Thank you Francis for that clarification.

Rod, no ,Gentiles were never under the Law, however, remember Israel was a LIGHT to the Nations. And foreigners could join themselves to Israel, called WHAT? Ruth was one such person. So was Rahab.

The Law points to the same Christ for a Jew or Gentile. Paul was teaching Gentiles in Acts 28 out of the LAW of Moses and Prophets. The LAMB of God , Jesus , applies to all mankind. That's why John 3:16 says whosoever will...meaning both Jew and Gentile.

How did the woman at the well KNOW Jesus was the Christ???? Because she HEARD these things?

Now in Christ, there is no longer Jew or Gentile,, but a NEW CREATURE.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/13


Markv, Leej and Christan will NEVER SEE the types and shadows as long as they stand in Calvin's shadow....getting no TRUE LIGHT, being so overshadowed by him, they are weak, scrawny hateful little runts who can never GROW UP into the statue and FULNESS OF CHRIST in the LIGHT of this Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When they CHOOSE out of their own free will to step out of Calvin's shadow, there is hope. But Calvin has them in bondage, believing they have no will whatsoever to step out IN FAITH, putting their faith in the Jesus of Scripture.

Even Mormons believe in Jesus, BUT I would say too, they would curse at this question as well.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/13


1 Kings 10:1 when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions.

Israel being in the centre of the East <-> west trade route, traders would here of God, and Gentile kings and Queens come to Israel to here about God

1 Chron 9:2 Nethinims.

These Nethinims were assimilated into Israel. They started out as Gentiles, them because the ones who knew the mechanics of running the earthly sanctuary

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,.. their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar,

Acts 8:27 a man of Ethiopia,.. had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
---francis on 3/10/13


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Francis//This is talking aboutthe law of Moses, not the ten commandments.

There is no qualifier on what type of law Galatians is speaking of. It says "law" and you may not believe this but the 10 commandments are laws. They are also the ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7,9)and the only thing they do for you is to convict and CONDEMN you for your gross sinfulness.

The law whatever type it may be, served only as a temporary injunction until we could be justifed by Faith.

Sorry but you really need to study these issues without the blinder of your wizard Ellen White who could only peep & mutter (Isaiah 8:19) and copy works of other people.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


kathr//I do find it sad as well as telling YOU need someone to explain the Word of God to you."

We are instructed to study the word of God and to learn from the teachers the Lord has given to His Church.

2Ti 2:15 STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and TEACHERS,

What is really SAD is that you are too blind minded to realize you need to take advantage of those the Lord has given us so that we can rightfully interpret the word of God.

Unfortunately, all you want to do is to slam others that disagree with you.
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13


"The Law of Moses are shadows" francis

Say what? The ten commandments are shadows? Shadows of what? Do you even know what the "Law of Moses" even mean? The ten commandments are REAL and they tell us that God is Holy and "the wages of sin is death"!

You quote, "Earhly sanctuary is a shadow of: the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Earthly high priest is a shadow of: Christ being an high priest. Passover Lamb is a shadow of: Christ our Passover. Temple Veil is a shadow of: his flesh," These are not the "Law of Moses" but "Holy objects" that were simply pointing to a perfect person - the Lord Jesus Christ.
---christan on 3/10/13


As a gentile I hear the above mentioned statement, and then in another conversation the statement is made, "The Law is not for gentiles, but for Jews."
So how can the law lead a gentile to Christ, but the law is not for gentiles?
---Rod4Him on 3/10/13

First the law was given to Israel. All Israel. Not just Judah/Jews. New Covenant is to All Israel not just Jews.
I would ask are the laws in your heart?
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father ...draw him...
---Trav on 3/10/13


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//Sctipture tells us the Law of Moses is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.//

As a gentile I hear the above mentioned statement, and then in another conversation the statement is made, "The Law is not for gentiles, but for Jews." So how can the law lead a gentile to Christ, but the law is not for gentiles?
---Rod4Him on 3/10/13


Are all the types and shadows then a big joke?
---kathr4453 on 3/8/13

for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
---christan on 3/9/13

SLOW DOWN and read the blog question. kathr4453 is asking about SHADOWS. The ten commandments are not shadows.
What is thou shall not steal a shadow of?

The Law of Moses are shadows
Examples:

Earhly sanctuary is a shadow of: the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2

Earthly high priest is a shadow of: Christ being an high priest Hebrews 9:11

Passover Lamb is a shadow of: Christ our Passover 1 Cor5:7

Temple Veil is a shadow of: his flesh, Hebrews 10:20

Maybe this needed clarified for those who did not know
---francis on 3/10/13


Kathr, you do to tell bro. Lee,
"Leej, I do find it sad as well as telling YOU need someone to explain the Word of God to you."
What we find sad is that you preach against the Sovereignty of God and need for the word of God to come to you not in word only, but with power and the Holy Spirit and with much assurance.
1 God gave us the laws
2. Salvation is soley by God's grace through faith.
3. Salvation comes only to God's elect, His children.
4 God gave us the types and shadows.
Everything is about God not about you.
"Knowning beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and with the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance.."
---Mark_V. on 3/10/13


Peter, you read the Bible first, faith comes by hearing, you then are convicted in your conscience. But did reading the sermon on the mount convict you of SIN? Many people know there is something wrong, BUT will never call it SIN.

So, I don't know much about you Peter, ...are you saying it took 5 years for God to save you? Or 5 years of wrestling that YOU chose to finally obey the Gospel?

This also addresses michael_e's false Gospel as well, seeing PAUL all the way in Acts 28, explained HIS GOSPEL starting out of the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

It will flush out the cults, that's for sure.

So Peter WHY do you think the question is that difficult. It's as easy as pie to those who KNOW and believe the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/13


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Kathr: It is hard of course to answer your question, for it is one of those difficult ones, and it leads back to the election question

But even in the election, God still made us with a brain, and so when God elects people, He gives those people reasons why they should believe in Him

My first realisation that something was wrong with me was when, knowing nothing about God, I opened a Bible and read the Sermon on the Mount, and though 'what's wrong with me!!!????'

And five years later I was brought to God
---Peter on 3/9/13


"This is talking about the law of Moses, not the ten commandments." francis

O my and I held you in "high regards" to the knowledge of the law. How disappointing! Who did God gave the ten commandments to? The golden calf at Mt Sinai or Moses? The ten commandments wasn't all that Moses receive, that's because if you read Leviticus, there were about six hundred others that came with the ten.

And specially for the ignoramus with regards to the law, Scripture explicitly declares "...for by the law is the knowledge of sin." If you're "convicted by the law" that you're a sinner, won't the Spirit then turn you to Christ for salvation? He will, if you belong to the Father!
---christan on 3/9/13


3: 19 "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary."


Excellent Leej.

Now do you need someone to pontificate what this means, like your Protestant pope, Calvin. Or did Paul write to simple gentile people, in words even they could understand.

Please show scripture backing up where Paul stated they were too ignorant to understand and they needed YOU to explain it to them.

God's word is spirit and truth, even the woman at the well could understand.

And they all laughed at Peter, saying, isn't he an unlearned man?
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


Leej, I do find it sad as well as telling YOU need someone to explain the Word of God to you. Seem as though you admit the Holy Spirit is not actively teaching you. Yet you claim to have been regenerated TO SEE. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

And the only hing you know about the LAW is arguing about the Sabbath, that is a grain of sand compared to the whole of the LAW.

You may want to refresh yourself too in Romans 3-5. Also Hebrews is an EXCELLENT Book concerning the LAW and all that was fulfilled In Christ. It's all right there. And yes, you may need to be taught again the elementary principles first before you really can understand the question.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


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3: 19 "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary."
---e.lee7537 on 3/9/13

This is talking aboutthe law of Moses, not the ten commandments. The law of Moses was added because people trangresed the ten commandments needed to know how God would deal with sin.
And the law of Moses, the shadow of Jesus, allowed for any one everyone to have their sins forgiven.

This shadow remained in place until Jesus died, Since then there had been no need for a sacrificial lamb, high priest, or earthly sanctuary
---francis on 3/9/13


Kathr, you now say,

"NOW if you can prove on that day only a select group of people, who had their names pulled out of a hat to come forward and the rest were intentionally excluded , then we might have something to talk about."

We do no have to proof anything to you. When we do you reject the Truth. Nothing can penetrate your heart. God did not pull anyones name out of a hat. There was no creation yet.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us (believers) with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ. Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.." (Eph. 1:3,4).
---Mark_V. on 3/9/13


"EVERYONE CAN DO THIS 1 John 2:1 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" francis

"EVERYONE"? Then why are they not doing what 1 John 2:1 says? Multitudes are already waiting to be cast into the Lake of Fire as we speak. See the devil that's dancing in your head? The very act of turning to Jesus Christ has already been well established in John 6:44 and 65, so there's no need to quote those verses anymore.

You have the audacity to say "EVERYONE CAN DO THIS"? Truth be told, those were about the very same "words" the serpent spoke when engaging Eve with regards to the forbidden tree.
---christan on 3/9/13


MarkV, free-willers will be free-willers and that's because Peter has told us that these unbelievers who "stumble at the word" were appointed. They quote verses they "think" means it's of choice specific and then reject (skip or ignore) verses that speaks of action specific, which the Lord has told us "He had purposed them".

Regardless of whether they call themselves evangelical, SDA, JW, RC, atheist, the Muslim, Hindus or Buddhists - they are all bonded by one spirit, "free-will" of man.

Make no mistake, according to Scriptures, judgement on these who call themselves "christians" will be far greater.
---christan on 3/9/13


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Nowhere in all of the types and shadows is any suggestion of only certain people being chosen to cover sin. FOR THE SIN OF ALL THE PEOPLE. That was the day do atonement.

NOW if you can prove on that day only a select group of people, who had their names pulled out of a hat to come forward and the rest were intentionally excluded , then we might have something to talk about.

Jacob was not chosen over Esau to have his sins forgive. Jacob AKA all of Israel "the Nation " was chosen to be God's chosen on earth to be His representatives on earth, and to bring in the Messiah through the line of JUDAH, as Genesis 49 states.

Your ignorance of OT really shows.

Salvation is OF the Jews....not FOR the Jews.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If Leej, Markv and Christan hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
---francis on 3/9/13


Oh, this (Galatians 3:24-25)is very simple and self explanatory . What other law could this be referring to,....the law of CONSCIENCE?

You really need to seek the counsel of those who know the Bible. If you do not have counsel at least find a decent commentary on Galatians.

The law there in Galatians is the law with NO qualifier.

Consider a previous verse
3: 19 "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary."

Was 'conscience' added because of transgressions?

If you were to think about this, you hopefully would come to see just how stupid your comment really is.
---e.lee7537 on 3/9/13


Kathr, I can see why you are one of francis favorites, both of you belief, your (so call free will) self righteous deeds will get you into heaven. You even have the guts to say,
"Why do some reject this truth claiming election based on nothing but God's good humor"
You call it God's humor. Since I met you on line, you have done nothing but tried to strip the Attributes and the nature of God to please your audience. I also tell you to repent before God if you are actually saved. If not, then it doesn't matter.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/13


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Francis, great verses. Genesis 3:15 announced salvation right after Adam & Eve fell. God covered them in animal skins representing a covering of sin. Abel's sacrificed Blood, learned through what he was taught by his parents. Cain was taught the same thing, yet his pride stood in the way. God more fully revealed Genesis 3:15 to Abraham, in that ALL FAMILIES of the earth will be blessed. The LAW pointed to sin, the Tabernacle was a picture of Christ in every tiny piece, and practice, bringing us to Christ HIMSELF, when he came and fulfilled the Law and
prophets.

Jesus said, John 6..... Those who have LEARNED and been taught of the Father, (through the Law & prophets) come to me.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


Even holding up the serpent by Moses, was a type of salvation, whosoever "will". Free will. Free choice. That is the ONLY true definition of free will.

ALL scripture is for our edification. Not just 15 verses in Calvin's small plot of 6 tulips.

So those who have confined themselves to only tip-toe through the tulips, have robed themselves and others of the mountains and valley's of a vast unending journey with Christ beyond anything you could possibly ask or think.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
---jerry6593 on 3/9/13

Jerry, great verses. notice this was written just before John 6....and completely compliments John 6..the learning and heard part. Also we know John's letter was not in chapter and verse, but A WHOLE.

Thanks for posting those verses.

Let's find more verses like this to post. It really irritates Leej, Markv and Christan. Notice their NON SCRIPTURE input of cursing arrogance. This must really disturb their conscience.

It appears it has.
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


---kathr4453 on 3/8/13
You are defiantly one of my Favs!

In addition to everyone in Israel being able to make an acceptabel sacrifice whch represents the death of Jesus for our sins, non Jews could also make an acceptable sacrifice which represented the death of Jesus for their sins

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:
Isaiah 56:5 I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:7 their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar, for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people

The Types shows us that EVERYONE can be saved
---francis on 3/8/13


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Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, 'that we might be justified by faith..

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Oh, this is very simple and self explanatory . What other law could this be referring to,....the law of CONSCIENCE? Even better...
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


ANYONE COULD DO THIS
THIS WAS THE SCHOOLMASTER FOR EVERYONE TO TEACH THEM OF JESUS
Leviticus 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him. t shall be forgiven him.


EVERYONE CAN DO THIS
1 John 2:1 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
---francis on 3/9/13


Kathr, you fight with every part of your human body to reject God and His right to choose whom He will to choose as His spiritual children. You exhalt man above god, sinful man at that.
In Galatians 3:23-25) Paul is not saying the law saves anyone, because he told us we were saved by the grace of God through faith. He is saying all are under the law. Then he speaks about "we" the elect, who would come to Christ (v.23) they were kept under the law until faith was revealed. Faith was not revealed to all those under the law. Paul was saying that faith in Christ releases the elect from the bondage of sin, whether the Mosiac law or the law written in the hearts of the Gentiles (Rom. 2:14-16). Only the Truth will set you free.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/13


Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?



---jerry6593 on 3/9/13


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sharing

God does all we need (2 Corinthians 3:4-5), but He has people and things sharing with Him, how He includes us and things in doing what He wants.

He has used the law to bring us to Christ > the law was our "tutor" or "schoolmaster". "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor," he also does say (Galatians 3:25).

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) Our real freedom of will is in sharing with God > "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17).

The law can't do this.
---willie_c: on 3/9/13


Just to add..the Law, the one Paul was talking about in Galatians...yes the Law of Moses, was the issue there, was fulfilled In Christ.

S, the mercy seat,>pointed to grace, the blood pointed to forgiveness, the day of atonement , pointed to Jesus death and resurrection, the VEIL pointed to Jesus torn side...all they did under LAW, POINTED to CHRIST the MESSIAH, who was prophesied to one day come and take away the sin of the world. John the Baptist said BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD , who takes away the sin of the world.

YES Leej...the LAW was a schoolmaster that has brought us to Christ.....the CHRIST of The Scriptures.

Should we be concerned you have ANOTHER Christ? Like Joseph Smith had maybe?
---kathr4453 on 3/9/13


"Schoolmaster" is a perhaps misleading translation of the this NT Greek word PAIDOGOGOS in Galatians 3:24.

The PAIDOGOGOS was the servant charged with escorting the children from the home to the school, lest they lose their way, play hooky, or worse.

Perhaps "monitor" or "escort" might be a modern equivalent for something we don't have today.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/8/13


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