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Must We Obey The Law

Does our lack of obedience or unwillingness to obey the law disqualify us from the eternal life to come?

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 ---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13
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Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
---francis on 3/19/13


Haz27, that's why he keeps them on the top shelf, out of the reach of children.
This way they can see them and talk about them.
But they really can't touch them, so as not to hurt themselves or anyone else.
These children today want to get into everything.

I love it then they say out loud, I keep them!
But then whisper, just not all the time
And it's just funny how everyone here knows this is true!
Expect for them!

SHhhh... don't tell them, everyone knows. Ok!
God bless
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/19/13


It's interesting to note that those who always argue that we should KEEP the commandments in fact DON'T KEEP them themselves.

To KEEP the law/10C means PERFECT obedience, as James 2:10 describes.
PARTIAL obedience is NOT the same as PERFECT obedience/ KEEPING the law.

Also interesting is how these same people ALWAYS AVOID discussion on their partial obedience.

Sadly, those who say we need to KEEP the law/10C are deceived with a false gospel that mixes grace with self-righteous works of partial obedience to the law/10c.

BUT, as Rom 11:6 shows, you CAN'T mix grace and works.
Those who do are lukewarm, Rev 3:16
God calls on these people to "Repent", Rev 3:19.
---Haz27 on 3/19/13


Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in

Exodus 20:3 having other gods
Exodus 20:4 making graven image, and bowing down to them
Exodus 20:7 taking the name of the LORD God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Not Remembering the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Dishonour our father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 killing.
Exodus 20:14 Committing adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Stealing.
Exodus 20:16 Bearing false witness
Exodus 20:17 Covetting

that grace may abound?
---francis on 3/19/13


If we are not keeping the law, then we are:

Exodus 20:3 having other gods
Exodus 20:4 making graven image, and bowing down to them
Exodus 20:7 taking the name of the LORD God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Not Remembering the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Dishonour our father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 killing.
Exodus 20:14 Committing adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Stealing.
Exodus 20:16 Bearing false witness
Exodus 20:17 Covetting

These are the smae behaviour from which we as evangelist call the world to repent. How then can we return to our own vomit?

Can you image a christian living like that?
---francis on 3/19/13




John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, If we keep his commandments,

1 John 2:4 - he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:2 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments,

1 John 5:3 - For the love of God , that we keep his commandments ,and his commandment are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 - And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning ye should walk in it.
---RICHARDC on 3/19/13


Samuelbb7. Let's look at what your really saying.
You might argue about the 10C being a moral code BUT what you also believe, which is our real point of contention, is that our righteousness is judged by the law/10C.

So really the false gospel you push is unbelief in Jesus as you deny him by your self-righteous works of the law. You deny him in that you doubt righteousness by faith and instead demand righteousness by works of the law.

That is really what you are saying and that is where we differ.
So let's keep to the real issue of how a Christian's righteousness is determined.
It's righteousness by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law.
---Haz27 on 3/18/13


Francis//Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity---

Apparently all they had was their own concept of righteousness by works of the law.

Perhaps you really should take the time and examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith?

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


So the 10 commandments Haz are not to be obeyed. For to put GOD first and respect his name and put up graven images all is sinful according to you. We should disrespect Parents, lie, commit Adultery and lie for those are nine of the Commands of GOD you say causes a person who loves GOD so much and others who does not want to do these evil things to be lost. That is what you are saying. For we do what is right out of love. As all true Christians do.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/13


Francis.//Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city//.

"we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, as he gave us commandment".1John 3:22-23

Unfortunately francis, you are following the wrong commandments, that of the OT righteousness by works of the law. And because you FAIL to keep the law/10C PERFECTLY, you thus make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18
---Haz27 on 3/18/13




Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Now these men had faith In Jesus. In Jesus name they prophesied, in Jesus name cast out devils, and in Jesus name done many wonderful works.

But Jesus said that they were workers of iniquity:

Isaiah 59:1 the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
---francis on 3/18/13


Does our lack of obedience or unwillingness to obey the law disqualify us from the eternal life to come?
---
BIBLE ANSWER:
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In your view, salvation is determined by how well you obey the commandments.

Mt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And the Sabbath keepers were the worlds best commandment keepers, were they not?
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


Does our lack of obedience or unwillingness to obey the law disqualify us from the eternal life to come?
---e.lee7537 on 3/10/13
BIBLE ANSWER:
Revelation 12:17 the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
---francis on 3/18/13


---James_L on 3/17/13
Hebrews 10:16 I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

2 Cor 3:3 written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Can you see the reference in corithians to the ten commandments, the only law written in stone

Exodus 24:12 I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written,

So you see it again in NT, the same thing that was once written in stone, is now written in our hearts
__________________
Now anyone on CN can see that many claim faith in christ, yet do not keep his laws. No double talk here, the evidence is not only infrot of you, it is you
---francis on 3/18/13


francis,
Don't speak out of both sides of your mouth


\\THESE PEOPLE HAD THAT FAITH.THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS....they lived in sin\\
---francis

\\...it is the ten commandments that God writes in our hearts\\
---francis

You LOVE the part obout God writing His Law on our hearts, but He also said...


Ezekeiel 36:27
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.


God writes His Law in our hearts, it sounds kind of inevitable that we WILL walk in His statutes, right? You have said as much elsewhere

how on earth do you find room for someone living in iniquity in that equation ???

You're double-minded
---James_L on 3/17/13


//Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But for those that are born of God's Spirit Jesus could not say that He never knew them.

It is the religious ones that proclaim they know Christ but all they have is a belief that they will enter into eternality because of their obedience to what they perceive is God's commands.

Such was the problem with the Sabbath keeping and law abiding Pharisees - the chief enemies of our Lord. And are there not some today that are modern Pharisees?
---e.lee7537 on 3/17/13


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..genuine faith always manifests itself in obedience to the Law, then why would he not just preach faith?
---James_L on 3/16/13
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

IT TAKES FAITH TO WORK MIRACLES,THESE PEOPLE HAD THAT FAITH.THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS Where they failed was that they lived in sin

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

other translation say lawlessness
---francis on 3/17/13


---James_L on 3/16/13
It did not matter whether you are married or single, slave or free, circumcised or uncircumcised when you accepted Christ as Saviour, what matters is that you have faith in Jesus and kept the commandments of God

1 Corinthians 7:24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

and you see it again with John:
Revelation 14:12 the saints: they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

and in Isaiah:
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is]no light in them.

no secret, no mystery: God's people ate those who keep his commandments AND have faith in Jesus
---francis on 3/17/13


\\1 Corinthians 7:19 ...the keeping of the commandments of God.\\
---francis on 3/16/13

If you only cared about context and word usage.

Paul was speaking of the COMMAND to stay in the same condition that we are in when we are in when we are converted - married, slave, etc etc

He says in verse 25 that he had no COMMAND about virgins.

Later in the epistle (14:37) Paul said that women should be silent in the church, and said that it is a COMMAND (same Greek word) from the Lord.

Do you find this teaching in the Ten Commandments ???


You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Twisting and bending scripture, and ultimately denying the grace of God
---James_L on 3/16/13


--shira4368 on 3/16/13
--James_L on 3/15/13

I post on many other blogs
but just look up, I did not write the question at all.

I am just giving solid biblical verses based on those the blog.

What does it tell you that so many blogs are about the law of God, and so many of then about the sabbath?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but( what is most important is) the keeping of the commandments of God.
---francis on 3/16/13


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Shira,
you're right.

If francis honestly believed that true, genuine faith always manifests itself in obedience to the Law, then why would he not just preach faith?

francis,
you prove over and over that he believe the opposite of what you preach. Your "fruit" shows that you don't believe faith produces law abiders, but that law abiding produces faith.

THAT is called hypocrisy
---James_L on 3/16/13


Disobedient (Eph 2:2) are not unwilling to obey (they are hostile) to Gods 10 laws, therefore they are not subject to them (Romans 8:7)

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience (hence not obeying).

The righteous have Gods 10 laws written in our minds, and through our Lord and Savior (Christ Jesus) obeying through Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).

Revelation 14:12
"... here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
---Follower_of_Christ on 3/16/13


james l, all francis post is the law. he don't know anything else. he uses many post on one subject. always more than one too. francis. God bless you.
---shira4368 on 3/16/13


\\\---Haz27,---James_L,---e.lee7537,
....We only get 75 posts per blog, do not waste them\\
---francis on 3/14/13

REALLY ??
I've seen you WASTE 15-20% of an entire thread by posting the Ten Commandments over and over and over

If you honestly think that following the Law is the mark of a true believer, then why not preach faith and then let the inevitable happen ???

If someone has an irregular heartbeat, would a doctor tell them to make their heart beat regularly ??

Or would that doctor suggest having a pacemaker installed and let the regular heartbeat happen as the INEVITABLE RESULT of having a pacemaker ??

why are you so hung on the supposed effect, and not the cause ??
---James_L on 3/15/13


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"if you had checked the word before you posted and finished it then you wold have seen this: Galatians 2:17" --francis on 3/15/13

Francis, if you had checked the word before you posted you would have seen this: Gal 2:18-21

How do you become a transgressor/sinner?
Gal 2:18 you rebuild works of the law for yourself.

Christians are DEAD to the law, yet you want to resurrect the old man so you can be under the law.

And by your being under the law to determine righteousness, you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21
---Haz27 on 3/15/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/14/
TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS:

1: where in the NT can I find:
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, and B: Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast

Do you think we should obey : 9/10 of these, except the one that says God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7 day blessed it and that we should remember the sabbath day to keep it holy?

---francis on 3/15/13


Ga 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13

Again if you had checked the word before you posted and finished it then you wold have seen this:

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found TRANSGRESSORS OF THE LAW OF GOD, is therefore Christ the minister of TRANGRESSION OF THE LAW? God forbid.

so what this tells us is that although we are not justified ny ANY LAW, we are never to break the ten commandments and be found as sinners
---francis on 3/15/13


This question emphaizes the root issue with any religion including christianity. We view the law (rules) as a limitation. When really the law is for our benefit. The Law is good, it is a gift from God, "all things work for good to those that love him". It is our caretaker on this earth.
The Law helps to define Christ's greatest commandment "Love the Lord your God and Love your neighbor" but what does that mean, the law says "Do not covet" so the law provides a reference point or clarity to bring forth Christ's commandment. Beautifully we do not have to be perfect in this because we live by faith in the grace of God. This is the purpose of Romans and Galatians.
---Scott1 on 3/15/13


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Francis,---Jerry---FollowofChrist,

Check with the word of God before you post. We only get 75 posts per blog, do not waste them.

The major problem you guys waste a blog by quoting some Bible verse out of its context.

If I were to quote the following, would you say that we are free to sin?

Ga 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Ga 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

All you guys want to do is to honk the Old Covenant law as you have no understanding of the Gospel message.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


1 Corinthians 5:12 do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth--francis on 3/14/13

Francis you misunderstand scripture. It is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14, so DON'T read it as a natural man would.

1Cor 5 speaks against those who preach the law. They're spiritual fornicators. Their father is the devil (John 8:44) and they fornicate with his wife, Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
That's why 1Cor 5:7 says to purge out the old leaven/doctrine of works of the law (Matt 16:12)

1Cor 5:11-13 says we judge those within the church who claim to be brethren BUT are fornicating with Hagar/the law. We should put away such wicked people and not tolerate their false doctrine of works of the law.
---Haz27 on 3/14/13


---Haz27,---James_L,---e.lee7537,

Check with the word of God before you post. We only get 75 posts per blog, do not waste them

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Corinthians 5:12 do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth
---francis on 3/14/13


Self appointed fruit inspectors, looking for the wrong fruit in the wrong orchard
---James_L on 3/14/13

I like that "fruit inspector" analogy for those who preach works of the law.

And what is the position of these "self-appointed fruit inspectors"?

James 4:12 asks them "who are you to judge another?"

James 4:4 even addresses them as (spiritual) ADULTERERS.

And James 4:7-8 even makes a salvation call to these "fruit inspectors" who are in unbelief, as revealed by their works of the law.

These "Self-appointed fruit inspectors" "profess that they know God, but in works they deny him", Tit 1:16
---Haz27 on 3/14/13


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And even Adventists today cannot point to a single NT scripture that commands Sabbath observance.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13
No one in all of christendom can point to ONE NT text that says:
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,

OR

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast

So mr e.lee7537 is my cockatoo safe at your house?

Or will she be abused while you take the name of the Lord in vain?
---francis on 3/14/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/14/
That is the whole point of having the bible as a guide. If I know

1: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

God will not change his doctrine, so any change is the doctrines of God cannot be of God or come from God, must have another source

2: The bible now tells me this:Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, .. he shall.. think to change times and laws Daniel 7:23-25

So i do not need DA Carson or Samuelle, all that they can do is use history to varify that the prophecy did come true and that the attempted change came from the fourth kingdom and not from god
---francis on 3/14/13


\\Francis. You claim that you do not do the law as a means of salvation, BUT then you JUDGE salvation based on works of the law. This is a contradiction.\\
---Haz27 on 3/14/13

Good point. It's no different from the Protestant "fruit" inspectors who are always trying to guage a person's spiritual condition by externals.

They claim we can know a believer by his fruit, which is so far out of context that it's not funny.

Self appointed fruit inspectors, looking for the wrong fruit in the wrong orchard
---James_L on 3/14/13


//Another contradiction is when you say you KEEP the commandments but you really mean PARTIAL obedience.

I think what we really see is that both Francis and Jerry as well as the other Sabbaterians really want us to observe the OT Sabbbath as they believe that commandment is really the mark of a true Christian.

However, as the Adventists are quite to judge others on whether or how one observes the Sabbath or does not, then what real differrence is between them and the Jewish religious establishment that used observance of the Sabbath to judge Jesus?

We know them by their fruits! Matthew 7:20
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


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Francis//Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, .. he shall.. think to change times and laws:

And is it not true that Adventists and other Sabbaterians have sought to change the TIMES and laws Christians would gather for communal worship - a tradition most Christians have followed since the beginning of the second century?

The inescapable reason for that would be that the leaders of the church, many of them being successors of the Apostles, did not teach Sabbath observance nor could they find anything in Scripture to commands it.

And even Adventists today cannot point to a single NT scripture that commands Sabbath observance.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


Francis. You claim that you do not do the law as a means of salvation, BUT then you JUDGE salvation based on works of the law. This is a contradiction.

Your false gospel implies that God is unjust. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved by grace WITHOUT any works of the law BUT for others like us, you claim our salvation is determined by our works of the law.

Another contradiction is when you say you KEEP the commandments but you really mean PARTIAL obedience.
To KEEP them means PERFECT obedience, James 2:10.
Partial obedience is NOT keeping them.
You have failed this PERFECT obedience and stand condemned.
---Haz27 on 3/14/13


"GOD FORBOD we do not break the law because we are under grace"
---francis on 3/13/13

Actually Rom 6 says "God forbid" and then goes on to speak of WHO we obey. And for Christians it's obedience to the gospel for righteousness BY FAITH (Rom 6:17)

Disobedience is to use the law to determine righteousness. To do this you make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18
To do this means you have not died to sin, Rom 6:2-7.

Rom 3:28"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified BY FAITH WITHOUT the deeds of the law"
Example: The THIEF on the cross
---Haz27 on 3/14/13


//Sunday gathering was really a tradition established by the successors of the Apostles.//

That was my point...there is not "proof" that the Sunday is now the sabbath.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/13


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Do mot miss the PROPHECY of God and statement by Jesus:

Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, .. he shall.. think to change times and laws:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

The word fo God tells us that a power will TRY to change times and laws of God, the word of God also tells us that this is not of God and not by the Son of God

Those who have understanding will know that the choise is between word of God or efforts o fthe beast to change Gods word
---francis on 3/14/13


Francis//I choose Matthew and Daniel over DA Carson,
---
That is also my position,

However, if those teachers that the Lord has given to His church can anchor their assertion with both Scripture and back it up with good historical research, I will accept it.

And these authors in DA Carson's book have done probably the most comprehensive study on the Sabbath that can be done.

You need to study this yourself as your position is simply not tenable.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


trey//our disobedience does not disqualify us from eternal life, but as Christians we should strive to live godly in Christ Jesus.

That is exactly my position.

If we view what Paul had to say in Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

We have to come to the conclusion that it is really impossible to obey all the law all the time.

I thank God that He saves sinner by His grace, not on the basis of law obedience. Romans 7:25
.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


e.lee, our disobedience does not disqualify us from eternal life, but as Christians we should strive to live godly in Christ Jesus.

Deu11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse,
Deu11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
De11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, ...
---trey on 3/13/13


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From Sabbath to Lord's Day, ..edited by DA Carson,
---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13

ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE GOD'S TIMES AND LAWS and article by Prophet Daniel which he received from the angel of the lord:

Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, .. he shall.. think to change times and laws:

And an article by Matthew where he quotes the Lord:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I choose Matthew and Daniel over DA Carson,
---francis on 3/13/13


No lee, it doesn't disqualify you.
It does however show that Christ has not increased in you as he should.
John said we must decrease and Christ in us must INCREASE.
When we see this increase, the less likely we are to fall prey to our flesh and disobey God.

The Mature Christian does not go around purposefully disobeying God.
We will see all of the fruits of the Spirit come from them.
We must remember that what ever we yield our members to is what we will follow. We have a choice everyday as Christians to either follow our flesh or the Spirit of Christ in us.
---g on 3/13/13


You CAN'T mix grace and works, Rom 11:6
---Haz27 on 3/12/13
Very very true there Haz27, ---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13

Your SDA friends have TWO simple queston for you BOTH from the bible

NUMBER ONE:
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?

1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law

NUMBER TWO:
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace?

WILL YOU ANSWER
Never mind the BIBLE gives the only true answer

GOD FORBOD we do not break the law because we are under grace

What we do not do, is try to use the law as a means of salvation
---francis on 3/13/13


Rod4Him // how does a person know how and when it (Sabbath) got changed?
--
From Sabbath to Lord's Day, a compilation of articles on the subject by various scholars edited by DA Carson, the early church met in synagogues on the Sabbath but also gathered on Sunday. They could not break in the Jewish synagogue service.

But after Christians were barred from the synagogues, they continued to gather on Sundays.

Church historians including some that are Adventists tell us that by the beginning of the second century, the church no longer observed the Sabbath.

I, however, see nothing in the Bible that commands the observance of any day. Sunday gathering was really a tradition established by the successors of the Apostles.
---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13


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//You CAN'T mix grace and works, Rom 11:6

Very very true there Haz27, but I rather doubt that our Adventists opponents will ever agree with you since such things as living in the Spirit, under grace and not the law, that Jesus came save to the utmost those that come to Him, etc. are things that are spiritually discerned.

And if the Adventists lack the indwelling Holy Spirit, the guide in our daily lives, then there is no chance of them understanding such concepts.


---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13


"If you have seen ANY of my post which say salvation by Law, just post it"--Francis

Topic:Confessing Christians go to Heaven.
"Can a person go to Heaven no matter how they act, post-profession of Christ? NO NO NO" --francis on 10/6/11

Topic:Is salvation a gift.
"Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai" E G white ---francis on 10/19/11

Francis & E.G White, deceive others saying we're saved by grace BUT if you don't keep the law then your unrighteous and "NO, NO, NO" will be the answer for your salvation (based on works of the law).

You CAN'T mix grace and works, Rom 11:6


---Haz27 on 3/12/13


//..the Bible nor the early church taught the observance//

The first believers were Jews, and they did meet in the synagogue on Shabbat as they always did, so it would not have been "taught."

//..so the proof that it continued into the New Covenant is your to prove NOT mine.//

The proof to the contrary is in Acts. The fact is the first believers met on Shabbat and other days of the week. However, to say "Sunday" is the right day to "go to church," it is incumbent on those that believe that to prove it. Otherwise how does a person know how and when it got changed? How would a person today prove to a Jewish person from Scripture that Sunday is the right day?
---Rod4Him on 3/13/13


Like physical growth, The more a Christian studies, the more is understood, the more responsibility is required.

A Christian does not lose their salvation/eternal life when they do not obey instructions. Any more than a child forfeits being a child of parents when they disobey their parents.

Fellowship is what we are required to maintain and re-establish if we disobey.
---jan4378 on 3/13/13


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Where in the bible would you go to show them that 7th day is not the sabbath or sunday as the lord's day?
Francis

Mark 2:27 - "The Sabbath was made for man"
Colossians 2:16 "Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions...a new moon or a Sabbath.

With these two verse I do not judge you for your strict Saturday rituals nor do you judge me for my rituals of observing the sabbath.
---Scott1 on 3/13/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made,

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy day,


Isaiah 66:22 For as the new earth,.. from. one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me,

So it is up to you to show that the sabbath is not part of the new covenant. not the other way around
---francis on 3/13/13


shira4368 on 3/12/13

This is what your church teaches:" there is not a single recorded instance in the N. T. of the saints meeting together for worship, after Christ's resurrection on any other day but on the first of the week!"

This is what the BIBLE records: Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made,

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy
---francis on 3/13/13


Francis//It is really up to you to show that the the sabbath was cancelled, rather than anyone to show that it continues
---
Not true at all since neither myself nor the Bible nor the early church taught the observance of the OT Sabbath. It is you that insist that one must observe the Sabbath, so the proof that it continued into the New Covenant is your to prove NOT mine.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


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Francis -Verses like:Acts 13:44 ,Acts 15:21. Acts 16:13 do not teach that the church needs observe the Sabbath.

ALL those verses do is to point out that the early Jewish church continued to observe the Sabbath but such was NOT imposed on the Gentile Church.

We can all too easy see that from the records left by the leaders of the early church that the Sabbath was not taught, many of these leaders being direct successors of the Apostles.

So how in the world can you expect anyone to believe that Christians need observe any day as holy including Sunday, often referred to in the literature as the Lords day? Rev.1:10
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


francis, your denomination has taught you salvation by works. don't worry about mine, you need to worry about your won.
---shira4368 on 3/12/13


shira4368
This is what your denomination teaches:

"The fourth commandment is closely connected with the other commandments. But so far from having any Jewish origin, ... It thus stands in a peculiar manner at the head of all the commandments,...

4. "Blessed is the man that doeth this,... " (Isa. 56:2). Here the Lord pronounces the man "blessed" that polluteth not His holy day. Therefore, by necessary implication, the one who defiles it is cursed.

His death and resurrection terminated the old covenant and ratified the new, and this necessarily resulted in a change of the weekly day of rest.

THEY HAVE NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE FOR THIS!!
---francis on 3/12/13


francis, don't keep pushing Isaiah 66 when you have been continually shown that you do not understand it grammatically nor contextually.
It does not support the doctrines set forth by the 19th century false prophetess that founded SDA and whose views many still cling.
---micha9344 on 3/12/13


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-Haz27//Jesus said to that thief "Today you will be with me in paradise"
That thief was saved by grace alone, without obedience to the law///


which law? The Law of works or the law of faith?

This man HEARD Jesus preach the Kingdom, so 1.) he HEARD 2.) he acknowledged he was a SINNER,stating he was deserving of death 3.) demonstrating FAITH in Christ by saying "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom", and we know this was before anyone was Born Again, seeing Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13
It is really up to you to show that the the sabbath was cancelled, rather than anyone to show that it comtinues

Verses like:
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made,

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy day, and isaiah 66 shows that sabbath continues forever

so you will have to show scripture where sabbath was discontinued
---francis on 3/12/13


-Haz27//Jesus said to that thief "Today you will be with me in paradise"
That thief was saved by grace alone, without obedience to the law

No doubt God left us this example to counter the likes of Francis who preach righteousness by works of the law.
--

Agree with you fully, but people like Francis preferred the words of Jesus to the thief on the Cross as "I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise."

However if we view all the other sayings of Jesus in the Gospels, we have to conclude that He meant that the thief would be with Him today in paradise.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


Unfortunately, for the last 2,000 years, God's WILL has been ignored and replaced by 'SCRIPTURE TEXT' and "obedience" procedure (protocol/empiricism and partisan 'robotics').

If I needed to be ordered/commanded in order for goodness to be a result of my behavior, then I would not be able to "walk" through daily life as a child of light, Ephesians 5:8 "walk as children of light"...("good and right and true").

If I were not a lover of goodness, I WOULD NEED a "master" to keep me in line, BUT God wants to be the Heavenly FATHER to us instead ("Abba FATHER") so that we can be a SON of His...Titus 1:8 "lover of goodness, master of himself".
---more_excellent_way on 3/12/13


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"Does our lack of obedience or unwillingness to obey the law disqualify us from the eternal life to come?"

The answer to this question is seen in the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord".

Jesus said to that thief "Today you will be with me in paradise"
That thief was saved by grace alone, without obedience to the law

No doubt God left us this example to counter the likes of Francis who preach righteousness by works of the law.
---Haz27 on 3/12/13


//There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance." -WILLIAM OWEN CARVER, "The Lord's Day in Our Day," page 49.

Agree that thre is no requirement for the Church to observe any day of the week, including Sunday - a day Christians gather for communal worship.

If the church was to observe the OT Sabbath, then CLEARLY CLEARY CLEARY FRANCIS, we would see something of a command in the New Testament as well as taught by the early leaders of the church.

So you really have no good reason in asking others to observe the Jewish Sabhath.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


--shira4368
"The Scriptures nowhere call the first day of the week the Sabbath. . .There is no Scriptural authority for so doing, nor of course, any Scriptural obligation." The Watchman.

"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and unchangeable rule of His moral government."-"Baptist Church Manual," Art. 12.

"There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance." -WILLIAM OWEN CARVER, "The Lord's Day in Our Day," page 49.

"There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Harold Lindsell (editor), Christianity Today, Nov. 5, 1976
---francis on 3/11/13


"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:30,31

Did Scripture say God calls His elect because they obeyed His laws? Or did He call His elect because "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son"?

How some can even conclude "if a person disobeys how the law would bring that person to Christ, yes the person would miss out on eternal life" is truly amazing. What a stark contrast to Paul's teachings.
---christan on 3/11/13


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This is truly a confused and deluded heart:

First, one says "if a person disobeys how the law would bring that person to Christ, yes the person would miss out on eternal life" which means obedience to the law is what brings the sinner to Christ and earns the sinner salvation, right?

And in the same breath, he says "Jesus has us resting from our own works". Goodness, make up your mind!

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6
---christan on 3/11/13


most people on christianet believe there is more to the bible than commandments.
--shira4368 on 3/11/13

If you met a man who wanted to be with a married woman where in the bible would you go to show them that it is wrong?

You keep sunday as the Lord's day. If someone told should you these two verses:
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy day,

Where in the bible would you go to show them that 7th day is not the sabbath or sunday as the lord's day?

Lets see how you answer and see who has wrong views
I doubt you will answer
---francis on 3/11/13


//francis, why don't you develop your own website then you can preach anything you want.

Perhaps the Lord is dealing with Francis on CN so that eventually he will see the truth of the Gospel and start preaching about jesus instead of ADventism.

We need realize that most people that fall into Adventism, simply leave after a couple of years eihter going into a Biblical oriented church, or simply remaining non-Christian.

It is indeed very hard to rescue someone trapped in the cults
---e.lee7537 on 3/11/13


francis, why don't you develop your own website then you can preach anything you want. most people on christianet believe there is more to the bible than commandments. you have injected you wrong view in almost every blog on christianet.
---shira4368 on 3/11/13


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Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death,
1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,

______________________
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,

Rev 14:12 the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
---francis on 3/11/13


"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3:24-25)

I notice how Paul says "was", not "is".

So, if a person disobeys how the law would bring that person to Christ, yes the person would miss out on eternal life. "And disobeying can include refusing to move on from the law to Christ." I can see the point of that.

Jesus does better with me than however I have been able to understand the law. He does not abuse us, He gives us "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) > Hebrews 4:6-10 > Jesus has us resting from our own works (c:
---willie_c: on 3/11/13


E lee "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." Rom 5:6
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Jhn 3:1
To believe in Him is the work of God in HIs chosen. It is He that empowers the believer to rely on, adhere to, trust in, and depend on Jesus alone for both salvation, and eternal life. One who abides in Him and His word will be both willing and obedient. "For it is "God" who works in [His called and chosen] both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure." Phl 2:13
---Josef on 3/10/13


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