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Wine Jesus Drank

Was there a difference between the wine Jesus made at the wedding (John 2:1-11) and the wine he was accused of drinking with the publicans and sinners? (Matthew 11:19)

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 ---Leon on 3/11/13
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//i am sure that yuo can do the research with what information you are given.//

I've already done my homework, and wine was extremely prevalent in Ancient Israel. You are the one trying to say it's grape juice...so prove it.

//Is it possible the ancients may have stored the grape juice in stone water jars submersed in cold (FRIGID) water,i.e., a brook or stream, a well?//

Possible, but not likely. There were/are almost no brooks in Israel, especially in the summer. A well, how much could it hold? And remember the stone jars "stood" nearby.
---Rod4Him on 3/19/13


"They stored the unfermented juice IN THE FRIDGE."
---Love.wins on 3/18/13

"...How did they in ancient times preserve the 'grape juice' so it would not turn into wine?..." ---Rod4Him on 3/18/13


"Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

Jesus said to the servants, Fill the jars with water, so they filled them to the brim." (Jn. 2:6-7)


Is it possible the ancients may have stored the grape juice in stone water jars submersed in cold (FRIGID) water,i.e., a brook or stream, a well? You know what they say about necessity being the mother of invention! :)
---Leon on 3/19/13


You forgot to put the references.
---Rod4Him on 3/19/13

i am sure that yuo can do the research with what information you are given.
---francis on 3/19/13


//References from the talmud treatise Abodah Zarah//

You forgot to put the references.
---Rod4Him on 3/19/13


How did they in ancient times preserve the "grape juice" so it would not turn into wine? ---Rod4Him on 3/18/
References from the talmud treatise Abodah Zarah
---francis on 3/18/13




They stored the unfermented juice in the fridge.
---Love.wins on 3/18/13


//I cannot define " real wine" as that which has alcohol at all. That would not be biblical//

How did they in ancient times preserve the "grape juice" so it would not turn into wine? How long did it take to turn grape juice into wine? What did they do with all their grapes?
---Rod4Him on 3/18/13


Interpret as you wish.
---Love.wins on 3/18/13


Love.Wins, that is not what Christ is saying.

Christ is saying that "man" says that the old is better. We can apply this in different ways. When the Jews first came to know Christ they said the Old Jewish Law Service is better than Christianity. When a Christian is born again, he may say, "My old lifestyle is better. I was free to sin (I didn't feal the guilt). I'm used to the old me that drank and chased wild women, etc."

The truth is the "new is better". The Grace dispensation is better than the Old Law Service, the New Covenant is better than the Old. The New Man is better than the Old Man, etc.
---trey on 3/18/13


Speaking of old and new wine, Jesus said, 'The old is better.' -Luke 5:39.
---Love.wins on 3/17/13




To not use real wine is to:
---trey on 3/14/13
I cannot define " real wine" as that which has alcohol at all. That would not be biblical

Nehemiah 10:39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine,

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not, for a blessing [is] in it:

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep, and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine, for it is cut off from your mouth.

The bible insists on new wine to avoid the alcohol, no wine, or fresh grace /grape juice is no less real wine than that which has been fermented
---francis on 3/17/13


In the pre-Reformation churches, Washing of Feet is something of a liturgical drama acted out before the congregation while the appropriate passage from St. John's Gospel is read in dialogue.

This happens ONLY on the Thursday before Pascha.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/13


Cluny: 'coq au vin?' In Coq au vin, since you put the chicken and the wine in the oven for some hours, by the time you take it out, there is no alcohol left in the food - but if you sit near the oven, you could get drunk.

But these are only US concerns
---Peter on 3/17/13


Hi Seg, you are exactly correct! Footwashing is symbolic and at the same time humbling, and such an act of love one towards another.

Thanks Seg. Lord bless you.
---trey on 3/16/13


Cluny: Jed probably thinks so because you nag nag nag! You don't know when to let go (exhale & be done with it). Pour yourself a glass of wine & chill out, please! Thank you. :)
---Leon on 3/15/13


\\I don't really see why you have to keep this going on so long. Given your name, I'm sure I'm not the first to mistake you for a female.
---Jed on 3/15/13\\

You've never explained just where you got the notion that Cluny was a female name, or why you thought so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/13


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The wines were different. The Cana wine was miracle wine, and the wine the republicans and sinners drank was ordinary wine.
---Love.wins on 3/15/13


Okay, Cluny. Sheesh. You don't have to get all bent out of shape over a simple case of mistaken gender identity. I already said I'm sorry and explained that it was an accident. I don't really see why you have to keep this going on so long. Given your name, I'm sure I'm not the first to mistake you for a female.
---Jed on 3/15/13


\\Minors are allowed to drink alcohol if it is given to them by their parent or legal guardian.
---Jed on 3/14/13\\

States have specific exemptions about wine used in religious ceremonies given to minors. This happens in Judaism all the time.

How about recipes where wine or other alcoholic beverages are used, such as coq au vin?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/15/13


\\I was just going off the feminine name is all.
---Jed on 3/14/13\\

Which it is not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/14/13


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Just curious Trey because I'm a sober alcoholic (since 1974). How does your local church handle giving wine communion to persons in your congregation who may have a drinking problem?
---Leon on 3/14/13
Or to minors?
---francis on 3/14/13


Minors are allowed to drink alcohol if it is given to them by their parent or legal guardian.
---Jed on 3/14/13


Trey that's beautiful, and does everybody have to participate or can I just go that and get my feet washed?

I'm just joking, I had to you left it opened for me!
But I do think that's a beautiful thing to see!

But as always!
What I do thou knowest not now, but thou shalt know hereafter.
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

But do you guys really believe he was talking about the washing of feel?
What you do is symbolic right, like the washing of pots and cups.

Still it's a beautiful thing to see!
People washing each other feet!
Even though, I think there more to it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/14/13


For those of you who are interested in my church, which I believe is the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ, using wine during the communion service, it is served in small thimble sized glasses. It's not enough for anyone to get drunk on.

On another note, members also wash each others feet. The men wash the men's feet and the women wash the women's feet.

Reason: John13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
The Lord said we ought to wash one another's feet.
---trey on 3/14/13


Francis,

In thinking on your question specifically. There is probably more alcohol in the cough syrup that parents give their kids than the thimble full of wine we serve in communion.

To not use real wine is to:
1Co11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
"Damnation" meaning destruction not eternal damnation.
1Cor11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
---trey on 3/14/13


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Francis//: Wine represents the blood of Jesus.

True and also new wine into new wineskins represents the tenets of the New Covenant.

Mr 2:22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skinsand the wine is destroyed, and so are the skins. But new wine is for fresh wineskins.

And that is exactly what the Sabbaterians have tried to do in trying to force the tenets of the Old Covenant onto New Covenant believers.

Obviously such will not work nor does God honor those that do.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


Why did you think shira was a girl's name? There are men's name that end in a.
---Cluny on 3/14/13

Cluny, I have known several females named Shira. I've never known a single male named Shira. Shira is most definitely a girl's name and you're simply not going to convince me otherwise. Like I said, I'm sorry I mistook you for a female. I was just going off the feminine name is all.
---Jed on 3/14/13


Just curious Trey because I'm a sober alcoholic (since 1974). How does your local church handle giving wine communion to persons in your congregation who may have a drinking problem?
---Leon on 3/14/13
Or to minors?
---francis on 3/14/13


"By the way, I'm of the Baptist faith and we use real wine and real unleavened bread during communion."
---trey on 3/13/13


Just curious Trey because I'm a sober alcoholic (since 1974). How does your local church handle giving wine communion to persons in your congregation who may have a drinking problem?
---Leon on 3/14/13


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Rod4Him, Leavening and Yeast are not the same thing. Yeast acts as a leavening in bread and most foods which require baking. Foods can also be leavened by other ingredients aside from yeast. Yeast does not leaven wine, it ferments it.
---Jed on 3/14/13


Perhaps a more accurate translation of John 2:10 would be in the NRSV.

"Everyone serves good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now."
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13

Does not matter which translation you use

1: Wine represents the blood of Jesus
2: By the hand of Jesus the better wine came second
3: the new covenant came second with better wine, better blood than bulls and goats
4: At the wedding his hour had not yet come, on good friday his hour had come to give the better wine
---francis on 3/14/13


\\Fresh crushed grapes naturally produces yeast which consumes the sugars and produces alcohol.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/13\\

Actually, the yeast floats through the air and lands on the skins.....

** It just SOUNDS like a girls name to me, **

Remember, the way things sound to you bears no relationship to reality, as can be seen in your many mistaken postings.

**so I just assumed you were a female. I haven't seen those posts from Shira about her late husband, but I still knew she was a female simply because she has a girl's name. **

Why did you think shira was a girl's name? There are men's name that end in a. Ever hear of IrA Gershwin or NikitA Khrushchev?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/14/13


//Wine does not contain leaven witch is consistent with unleavend bread...//

I am not sure what you are saying here, but leaven is yeast. Unleavened bread is bread without yeast. Fresh crushed grapes naturally produces yeast which consumes the sugars and produces alcohol.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/13


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Francis -

Perhaps a more accurate translation of John 2:10 would be in the NRSV.

"Everyone serves good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now."

As for strong drink, have you ever read Deuteronomy 14:24f where it speaks of those who live too far away to provide the tithe, that they should instead turn it into money and buy whatever pleases them including wine or STRONG DRINK?

Your problem is that you have chosen not to study the culture in which the Scriptures were created.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


Wine is symbolic of the blood of Christ (note I Cor 11:20-30 - these early Christians were getting drunk).
It was customary that wine be served at weddings.
Wine does not contain leaven witch is consistent with unleavend bread and the simplicity and impeccability of Christ.

By the way, I'm of the Baptist faith and we use real wine and real unleavened bread during communion.
---trey on 3/13/13


How many girls do you know named Cluny, Jed? Why does it sound like a girl's name to you?

In fact, I took my screen name from a famous MEN'S monastery in France.

shira, btw, has referred to her late husband.
---Cluny on 3/13/13


I have never known anyone, male or female, named Cluny. It just SOUNDS like a girls name to me, so I just assumed you were a female. I haven't seen those posts from Shira about her late husband, but I still knew she was a female simply because she has a girl's name. I don't know why, your name just sounds like a girls name to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Now I know, you are just a dude with a feminine name. I'll remember that from now on.
---Jed on 3/13/13


I would not go that way Francis, as is it all too easy to make you look like a foolish idiot.
---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13

SYMBOLS OF OLD AND NEW COVENANT:
Genesis 29:26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.


Here we see Jesus giving them the better wine, the best blood LAST

Hebrews 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these
---francis on 3/13/13


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shira4368:

One of the reasons why wine was so popular in tropical climates is that it naturally preserves fruit juices. Yeast lives on the sugar, and excretes alcohol - until there is so much alcohol that it kills the yeast, and is equally inhospitable to other similar organisms. This produces a beverage with a fairly low percentage of alcohol (because yeast can tolerate only so much).

Alcohol can be increased beyond this limit, but only by distillation. This is how "strong drink" is created. But even this has its rightful place - the Bible suggests drinking wine for an upset stomach, and strong drink (presumably as an anesthetic) for those who are dying.
---StrongAxe on 3/13/13


I got a mental image of you guys sitting side by side with the Baptist.
The lord serve them fermented drink and you guys get grape juice.
For no reason, expect to see the look on all your faces.
---TheSeg on 3/13/13

I also expect to see humorous things like the Lord serving pork to our Jewish and SDA brethren and saying to them that they could have had it all along on Earth.

Also dancing with the Pentecostals, shouting with the Lutherans, telling jokes to the Catholics, and telling the Orthodox to loosen up.

I can't wait to see the fun. We take ourselves way too serious.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/13/13


Jesus turned the water into wine. I find that weird but the bible does say that. however, what kind of wine? In proverbs it says strong drink is raging and it makes fools out of those who drink. I just can't see Jesus turning water into strong drink.
---shira4368 on 3/13/13


//The wine at the wedding was symbolic of the blood of Jesus that would be shed for all sins. It could never have been fermented.

I would not go that way Francis, as is it all too easy to make you look like a foolish idiot.
---e.lee7537 on 3/13/13


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Funny TheSeg! :) Actually, I'm not adverse to alcoholic beverages nor am I categorically Baptist though raises as such. I don't drink alcohol because I can't, i.e., sober since 1974 when the Lord delivered me! Now, speaking of drinking wine in Heaven. I have perhaps a different perspective on that since I won't be able to get drunk then. Yes, I will be able to drink wine because I won't be able to get drunk in my resurrected body. But, what if everybody then will be drinking grape juice in place of wine? Afterall, we won't need the vino to make us merry since we'll be perpetually joyful in the presence of the Lord! Just thinkin'. :)
---Leon on 3/13/13


You know e.lee7537 and Leon when I read the Baptist joke.
I got a mental image of you guys sitting side by side with the Baptist.
The lord serve them fermented drink and you guys get grape juice.
For no reason, expect to see the look on all your faces.

Now I'll probably water!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/13/13


John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine HOUR IS NOT YET COME.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, HOUR IS COME, glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

At the wdding his hour had not yet come, when his hour came, he gave his blood

The wine at the wedding was symbolic of the blood of Jesus that would be shed for all sins. It could never have been fermented.
the idea that alcohol is what makes wine taste good is false
---francis on 3/13/13


\\Cluny, sounds like a girl's name\\

How many girls do you know named Cluny, Jed? Why does it sound like a girl's name to you?

In fact, I took my screen name from a famous MEN'S monastery in France.

shira, btw, has referred to her late husband.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/13/13


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"...The wine at the Cana wedding, had to be of much better quality as it was made miraculously by the Lord.
The wine served to Jesus by His guests [?] had to be... off the shelf, more likely home brewed...Baptists...may find themselves drinking simply grape juice as it will probably still be against their convictions to drink fermented drink." [:)]
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


Lil' e: The publicans likely weren't drinking home brew. Like the IRS, they collected lots of taxes & thereby could afford the best wines money could buy.

Your Baptist joke was hilarious! I envisioned what that scene would look like & it cracked me up. Thx for serving up the merriment of laughter! :D
---Leon on 3/13/13


//Was there a difference between the wine Jesus made at the wedding (John 2:1-11) and the wine he was accused of drinking with the publicans and sinners? (Matthew 11:19)

The wine at the Cana wedding, had to be of much better quality as it was made miraculously by the Lord.

The wine served to Jesus by His guests had to be that off the shelf, more likely home brewed.

I thank God we have wine today to enjoy and will enjoy even a better wine at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Baptists on the other hand may find themselves drinking simply grape juice as it will probably still be against their convictions to drink fermented drink.
---e.lee7537 on 3/12/13


Leon, I don't know. I guess Cluny could be a male? Cluny just sounds like a feminine name to me so I always pictured a woman. I couldn't imagine a man named Cluny, Lol. That's just sounds weird.

I guess the way he/she/it is always admonishing other women for being poor wives and complaining about their husbands always led me to believe he/she/it was a female. I couldn't imagine any self respecting man admonishing other men's wives for being poor wives. That seems like something a woman should do.
---Jed on 3/12/13


Jed, you can't learn ANYTHING from people ignorant on the subject. That includes the Bible.

And you are clearly ignorant about me. Where did you get the idea I was female?

If you don't even know my sex, you're in no position to pass judgement on what I say or do.
---Cluny on 3/12/13


How do you know I'm a male? How do you know MarkV is a male? How do you know Kathr is a female? How do you know Shira is a female?

Because of the name, duh.

Cluny, sounds like a girl's name so naturally I assumed you were a female. Aside from that, I see you making premature accusations about people on here all the time that are totally incorrect. I don't need to know your gender to know that about you.
---Jed on 3/13/13


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Proverbs 31:4 [It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus being the prine of princes would not partake in alcohol

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would not drink.

LITERALLY


NEXT I WILL SHOW SPIRITUALLY
---francis on 3/13/13


Jed: It just occured to me, on the Adult Bald Eagle blog, Cluny identifies as male. Well?!
---Leon on 3/12/13


What's bad is if we use any of these things in a bad way (for example, warfarin is a plant extract that can be used to kill - or treat heart disease. One is good, one is not.)
---StrongAxe on 3/12/13


Warfarin is used in mice and rat poison. So even it's deadly properties serve a purpose. Rats (actually their fleas) were the cause of the bubonic plague, which claimed 10 times more lives than the holocaust. They also carry many other diseases. Without rat poison, we may very well all be dead. Had God not created chemicals that kill, we would have no pesticides. So even the seemingly undesirable effects of some of God's creations were included for a specific purpose it seems.
---Jed on 3/12/13


\\And as far as Cluny throwing premature accusations without even knowing one thing about you, well... that's just Cluny, that's what she does.
---Jed on 3/12/13
\\

Jed, you can't learn ANYTHING from people ignorant on the subject. That includes the Bible.

And you are clearly ignorant about me. Where did you get the idea I was female?

If you don't even know my sex, you're in no position to pass judgement on what I say or do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/13


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Jed has made a very good point. God create all kinds of plants and animals - and these include deadly mushrooms, plants that include psychedelic substances, sharks, disease bacteria, and all kinds of things - and he called them all "good". The very first thing in the Bible that was NOT "good" was man being alone.

What's bad is if we use any of these things in a bad way (for example, warfarin is a plant extract that can be used to kill - or treat heart disease. One is good, one is not.)
---StrongAxe on 3/12/13


"Leon, it's all good. We're all just trying to learn from the Bible. And as far as Cluny throwing premature accusations without even knowing one thing about you, well... that's just Cluny, that's what SHE does."
---Jed on 3/12/13


Interesting! I didn't know Cluny was... :)
---Leon on 3/12/13


Leon, it's all good. We're all just trying to learn from the Bible. And as far as Cluny throwing premature accusations without even knowing one thing about you, well... that's just Cluny, that's what she does.
---Jed on 3/12/13


\\Cluny: Please don't throw accusations around so carelessly. You really don't know me. I too am trying to learn, just like many others here. :)
---Leon on 3/12/13\\

And just what accusations am I throwing around (as if you never threw them at me)?

"Thou shalt not drink" is a cultural taboo that is NOWHERE in the Bible. Assuming the wine that Jesus made at Cana was not fermented is projecting a mere American Protestant cultural taboo onto the story.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/12/13


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"...Jesus DID intentionally make a human consumable items by which people can get drunk, and even high...for some reason He saw fit to create these things...You're making alcoholic wine to be something bad when God himself invented...created it."
---Jed on 3/12/13


Sorry Jed, I neglected to include your name when I recanted to Cluny & Lil' g. With sobriety of mind, since 1974, peace! :)
---Leon on 3/12/13


I'm speaking of this one specific occasion wherein Jesus, the God-man intentionally made a human consumable item for the pupose of blessing the wedding party.
---Leon on 3/11/13


Jesus DID intentionally make a human consumable items by which people can get drunk, and even high. He could have created grapes without the ability to ferment into alcohol. He could have created marijuana plants and mushrooms without mind altering chemicals, or he could have chose not to create them at all. But for some reason He saw fit to create these things with the ability to be used in that way, and when He did, He called them "good". You're making alcoholic wine to be something bad when God himself invented it and created it.
---Jed on 3/12/13


Yes, there was a difference. The wine Jesus made was a lot better.
---Rod4Him on 3/12/13


Cluny & Lil' g: Okay guys, let's not get your shorts in a bunch. I'm re-thinking my conclusion: In order for wine to be "wine" it must be fermented (alcoholic in content). Grape juice isn't wine. Happy?! :)

So, as the Bible certainly says, Jesus did indeed miraculously make wine, to gladden (make merry) the heart, from water. (Ps. 104:15)

Cluny: Please don't throw accusations around so carelessly. You really don't know me. I too am trying to learn, just like many others here. :)
---Leon on 3/12/13


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Sorry Leon.

It was in response to you stating that it was not real wine.
It was real wine.
Yes I know it was a respresentation.
But it doesn't change the fact that it was real wine.
---g on 3/12/13


\\ It's about Jesus making wine out of water for immediate consumption at a wedding reception occuring the very same day. :)
---Leon on 3/11/13\\

It was fermented wine.

There's nothing in the Biblical data or what is known of cultural customs to believe otherwise.

Deal with the facts. That's part of being sober minded.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/13


Gee g! You're overthinking the whole thing. This blog isn't about fermentation, pasteurization or any other type of preservation of food. It's about Jesus making wine out of water for immediate consumption at a wedding reception occuring the very same day. :)
---Leon on 3/11/13


\\Do you think Jesus instantly fermented it or was it the very highest quality (non-alcoholic) grape juice?\\

Since when has God done a half-way miracle? That seems to be what YOU want to believe.

\\I believe it wasn't fermented because I don't think Jesus would've provided the means by which people could get drunk. \\

In other words, you are believing your own cultural taboos that are add-ons to the Gospel.

By the same token, you could say that God would not have invented food so we won't be obese or be gluttons.

But just as every bite of food is NOT gluttony, so every cup of wine is NOT getting drunk.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/13


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Really?
Yes he did make fermented wine.
Unfermented wine is GRAPE JUICE!
That did not exist back then.
Remember people did not have refrigeration, ice, etc.
They made things so that it would not sour or go bad and make them sick. They preserved meat in salt. Water was not always clean to drink. THink about it..animals drank from the water source and did other stuff to the water source sometimes too. I would not want to drink that water after that.
So YES, Jesus made WINE and it was alcoholic wine too.
This false mess comes from those who think it is a sin to drink wine. It is not. It is a sin to get drunk.
---g on 3/11/13


Jed: Generally speaking, yes, God created everything. I'm speaking of this one specific occasion wherein Jesus, the God-man intentionally made a human consumable item for the pupose of blessing the wedding party. Drunkedness is not a blessing.
---Leon on 3/11/13


I believe it wasn't fermented because I don't think Jesus would've provided the means by which people could get drunk.
---Leon on 3/11/13


Jesus provided the means by which people could get drunk when he created grapes that ferment into wine. He also provided means by which people can get high when he spoke marijuana into existence. If Jesus wouldn't have already provided the means by which people can get drunk, then they wouldn't exist.
---Jed on 3/11/13


"...Why do you believe it was not fermented?

Without refrigeration, pasteurization, or preservatives--none of which was available in Palestine 2000 years go--grape juice will do one of two things: become wine or become vinegar.

Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 3/11/13


Okay, I hear you. But, doesn't fermentation occur over a period of time? Yet, Jesus instantly made the wine available for immediate human consumption. Do you think Jesus instantly fermented it or was it the very highest quality (non-alcoholic) grape juice?

I believe it wasn't fermented because I don't think Jesus would've provided the means by which people could get drunk. Doesn't God wants us all to be sober minded?
---Leon on 3/11/13


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\\But, why do you believe the wine Jesus made was fermented (an alcoholic beverage in nature) instead of being more like, non-alcoholic, Welch's Grape Juice?
---Leon on 3/11/13\\

Why do you believe it was not fermented?

Without refrigeration, pasteurization, or preservatives--none of which was available in Palestine 2000 years go--grape juice will do one of two things: become wine or become vinegar.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/13


"Obviously, it was a better quality. God doesn't make junk. BUT it was still fermented.

There is a myth circulating among some Protestants that the wine "back then" wasn't as strong as the wine today.
[Not] true. Fermentation, a natural process, begins once the grapes are crushed, & unless stopped by pasteurization...it will continue until the wine is between 10-12% alcohol, depending on the strain of yeast on the skins.

Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 3/11/13


Yes, I get it: it was a miracle (supernatural)! But, why do you believe the wine Jesus made was fermented (an alcoholic beverage in nature) instead of being more like, non-alcoholic, Welch's Grape Juice?
---Leon on 3/11/13


"...But Jesus has the best coming last, I see, for after we become sober and mature enough to receive it (c:"
---willie_c: on 3/11/13


Are you suggesting the people at the wedding weren't sober before Jesus turned water into wine? :)
---Leon on 3/11/13


"No Leon. However the wine that "Jesus made" was most likely better considering the governor's response. Jhn 2:10"
---Josef on 3/11/13


Are you saying the publicans (tax collectors) couldn't afford a high quality wine, that was tastefully on par with the wine Jesus made?

No doubt, the wine Jesus made was better than the wine first served at the wedding. But, I hope you don't think the "governor" of the wedding refers to a high government official. To the contrary, the governor was the director of the entertainment, aka the wedding planner. :)
---Leon on 3/11/13


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Obviously, it was a better quality. God doesn't make junk.

BUT it was still fermented.

There is a myth circulating among some Protestants that the wine "back then" wasn't as strong as the wine today.

This is not true. Fermentation is a natural process that begins once the grapes are crushed, and unless stopped by pasteurization or other means, it will continue until the wine is between 10 and 12% alcohol, depending on the strain of yeast on the skins.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/11/13


"Was there a difference between the wine Jesus made at the wedding (John 2:1-11) and the wine he was accused of drinking with the publicans and sinners? (Matthew 11:19)" No Leon. However the wine that "Jesus made" was most likely better considering the governor's response. Jhn 2:10
---Josef on 3/11/13


The Bible doesn't say, Leon, in direct words.

But the wine Jesus provided was wedding-quality > the master of the feast said it should have been put out first. I can see that publicans and sinners would not be regularly drinking wedding-quality wine.

"The master of the feast" said that after guests drank the high quality wine, then the lower-quality stuff was put out. Why would he save low-quality wine to be the guests' last impression, if he knew they would be sober enough to tell the difference? But if the good stuff dull's their senses, first, they won't notice.

But Jesus has the best coming last, I see, for after we become sober and mature enough to receive it (c:
---willie_c: on 3/11/13


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