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Is Circumcision A Requirement

Is circumcision of males one of the Ten Commandments? And, is circumcision a requirement to be saved?

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 ---Gordon on 3/14/13
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Is circumcision of males one of the Ten Commandments? And, is circumcision a requirement to be saved?
-Gordon on 3/14/13
Circumcision is not one of the ten commandments

Yes you must be circumcised to be saved:
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Those who have the circumcision of the heart keep all ten commandments

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
---francis on 4/23/13


--e.lee7537
The death penalty is a function of the government,
Examples:
Numbers 15:36, Leviticus 24:11
Deuteronomy 19:12,Deuteronomy 21:18-21,

1 Peter 2:14 unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

A few years ago in USA, witches, adulterers, and sodomites were put to death, and people who worked on Sunday were punished

If the government chooses they could do that again if it deems those acts to be a crime or evil

Isaiah 56 required sabbath people for everyone Jew and gentile, and Isaiah 66 requires sabbath keeping for everyone in heaven, why would God put it on hold now?

all your position are flawed
---francis on 4/22/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/21/13
Within the words of the ten commandments are these:

Exodus 20:6 shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:12 that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Other texts says: Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live,

To say that keeping the ten commandments is a ministry of death, when God promises long life and mercy to those who keep His commandments, is a lack of understanding of the scriptures

2 Peter 3:16 Paul in all his epistles,..in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
---francis on 4/21/13


//Very misleading, as there IS also penalty of death for adultery, murder, not honouring parents, worshiping false idols, witchcraft, sodomy, taking God's name in vain, and a few more.
----
So if you believe the OT laws are applicable, then do you advocate death for the penalty?

The fact is that the Jewish Sabbath disappeared along with other laws that are distinctly Jewish, and the Sabbath was but one of them.

Your position, my boy is a minority position primarily because it has the LEAST DEFENCE, either in scripture and well as in early church history.

I do not advocate that one should NOT observe the Sabbath as my position is simply that the Sabbath was NOT required of Gentile converts. Acts 15 is clear on that.
---e.lee7537 on 4/21/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/21/13
Very misleading, as there IS also penalty of death for adultery, murder, not honouring parents, worshiping false idols, witchcraft, sodomy, taking God's name in vain, and a few more.

You would agree that all these the christians out never to do, but you in great deceivousness try to say that we should not keep the sabbath unless and until we are prepared to impose the same death penalty of the law of Moses given to the civil government, knowing full well that the ten commandments have no imposition of death

I answer the death penalty for " the seg." Reminding him / her that not to long ago in USA there was a death penalty for witchcraft, and punishment for working on sunday.
---francis on 4/21/13




The law states "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy"

The sprit behind the law says "forsake not the assembly of yourself together" Hebrews 10:25.

The former is binding for those under the law and incurs a penalty, death for disobedience, but the latter is to those not under the Old Covenant law, the failure may be lack of fellowship and the grace of hearing Gods word for our faith and walk.

For whatever reason, we never hear Adventists advocating death as a penalty for not observing the Sabbath and they claim all OT laws are still applicable. Go figure!
---e.lee7537 on 4/21/13


---Mark_V. first, there is no such thing as " spirit of the law" in the bible, the phrase is " law of the spirit."

Second here is how this" spirit of the law" works: It is the greater intent of the law

Examples in Both OT and NT:

HERE IS THE LETTER OF THE LAW:
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.


HERE IS THE " SPIRIT OF THE LAW"
Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes, why then should I think upon a maid?
Matthew 5:28 whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As you cannot see. one cannot keep the spirit of the law, without actually keeping also the letter of the law
---francis on 4/21/13


//Define what it means to be UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, that way I do not mistake what you are trying to say before I call you an idiot again

---
the 10 commandments is defined in the Bible as the ministry of death & condemnation, compared to the more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

2 Cor. 3:7-9 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Perhaps there is such a thing as an SDA idiot?
---e.lee7537 on 4/21/13


francis, you can call me anything you want. I understand that you are under the letter of the law and not under the Spirit of the law. you cannot help who you are. As I said to brother elee, that the Pharisees themselves did not realize they were doing the desires of their father the devil. They thought they were free to do what they wanted but they were in bondage to sin. You cannot help who you are. The gospel of Jesus Christ has to come to you by God, in power and in the Holy Spirit. Otherwise you remain who you are. And no amount of Laws can change that, for there is no salvation under the law.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/13


---Mark_V. on 4/20/13
Define what it means to be UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, that way I do not mistake what you are trying to say before I call you an idiot again
---francis on 4/20/13




Gordon, in order for a person to enter heaven, he must have a circumcised heart, and that circumcision comes from God. There is no physical circumcision mentioned in the Ten Commandments. And we, as believers, are not under the Ten Commandments or the law as a whole, but under grace which is the Spirit of the law
---Mark_V. on 4/20/13


Psalms 138:2 thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

In many household, the head of the house says something like this" it is my house I can make and change the rules.
In many companies the boss has the privilege of changing the rules because he is the boss

God places his WORD above all the names which we know him by.
But God never says: I am God I will change my word. His word is unchanging. his word is his covenant

Hebrews 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

James 1:17 the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

That is how we as Christians know that we can trust God,
---francis on 4/20/13


Different Commands, Different People, Same God
---micha9344 on 4/18/
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

sorry you are wrong about this Jesus.
maybe you have another Jesus
---francis on 4/18/13


micha9344 on 4/18/13
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

God has already told Noah that soem beast are cleanand some unclean.

Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean,

A Holy God would NOT later ask Noah to eat what is unclean

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

All creatures which are sanctified by the word of God are good to eat. Only clean animals are sanctified by God
---francis on 4/18/13


Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Lev 11:46a,47 This [is] the law ... To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
1Tim 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
-Different Commands, Different People, Same God
---micha9344 on 4/18/13


---Mark_V. on 4/18/13
So what do we do with these: OBEY OR NOT OBEY?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 4/18/13


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francis, nothing you say to me hurts me. In fact it hurts you because what is in your heart comes out of your mouth and you write it. I don't have to call you names to know how to answer you. Concerning the laws that Jesus fulfilled, I have explained that over five times already. Look them up as you do my answers from the past.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/13


---Mark_V. on 4/17/13
All right idiot, tell me how christ fulled all ten commandment laws, and tell me why because of his fulfillment we no longer have to observe them

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 4/17/13


francis, you again give proof who you really are, a person under the law, who cannot keep the law trying to do the works of the flesh. Circumcision was required under the law of Moses. You follow the law, you should know that already. No matter what laws any SDA requires from others, they were fulfilled by Christ ( Mark 5:17).
In (Rom. 8:5,6) tells us about those in the flesh like you,
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
You francis live according to the works of the flesh.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/13


the question naturally would arise is what feast is in view in Exodus 5:1? ---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13
BIBLE SHOULD ANSWER THIS:
Exodus 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens. Pharaoh said, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them SABBATH from their burdens

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, THIS IS THAT which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:


--Mark_V. on 4/15/13
BIG IDIOT where did you see ANY SDA say circumcision is part fo TEN commandments?
---francis on 4/16/13


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Francis //Exodus 5:1 Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
---
While none of the feasts commanded of Israel has yet been given, the question naturally would arise is what feast is in view in Exodus 5:1? The feast of booth, of unleavened bread, of the Passover, etc.

Sorry Francis but you have run yourself up a tree on this issue.
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13


Gordon, no flesh circumcision of males is necessary for salvation, only circumcision of the heart is necessary. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments, no matter what any SDA tells you.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


RICHARDC on 4/14/13
good post
---francis on 4/15/13


Exodus 5:1 Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

WHAT FEAST? NONE OF THE FEAST DAYS WAS YET GIVEN

Exodus 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exodus 5:5 Pharaoh said, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them REST from their burdens

HERE IT IS CLEAR THAT WHAT MOSES IS SEEKING IS REST FROM LABOUR

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

AND BEFORE SINAI MOSES SAYS TO THEM, THIS 7TH DAY SABBATH IS THE REST WHICH GOD SPOKE ABOUT

the feast the was to keep WAS THE SABBATH
---francis on 4/14/13


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Francis //the feast the was to keep WAS THE SABBATH

Another one of your poor exegetics. You are like the mentally deranged person that sees a demon behind every tree.

You are WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, and that because you really do not understand what the Bible teaches.
---e.lee7537 on 4/14/13


Romans 2:28 - For he is not a jew , which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh,

Roman 2,29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly : and circumcision is that of the heart in spirit, and not in the letter , whose praise is not of men, but God,

( The changing of The Heart - That's what Saves - And That circumcision from God )

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the lord God will cumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one Heart, and I will put a new spirit with in you: and I will take the stoney heart out of their flesh, and give them a new heart of flesh.
---RICHARDC on 4/14/13


Since the law at Mt. Sinai
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13
WRONG AGAIN

Exodus 5:1 Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
Exodus 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

the feast the was to keep WAS THE SABBATH

Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

ALL THIS BEFORE SINAI
---francis on 4/14/13


//Genesis 26:5 Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

So what commandments, statutes and law is referred to here?

Since the law at Mt. Sinai was NOT given UNTIL some 400 years after God made a covenant with Abraham, it is rather OBVIOUS that Genesis 26:5 does NOT refer to the Sinai law.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant (made with Abraham) previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Sorry Francis but you cannot win your war against the Word of God. So you are WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13


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---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13
WRONG AGAIN
Genesis 26:5 Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

So before Moses God gave Laws, commandment, statues and so on

Now look at all these BEFORE Sinai:

Exodus 5:1 Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
Exodus 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:
---francis on 4/13/13


NO. NO. No, it is not one of the Ten Commandments, No, it is not a New Testament requirement, No, it is not a requirement to be saved. It pre-dates the Ten Commandments. God instructed Abraham to circumcise all males in his household. In the New Testament, Paul opposes the practice and speaks against circumcision for christians. Are you a Jew? Are you a male? Circumcision is a requirement among Jews. On the eighth day, a boy is to be circumcised. Christians are not to be circumcised.
---born on 4/13/13


//It is NOT the purpose of the book of Genesis to tell us details of the law of God, yet every Law of God is in Genesis including the Sabbath.

No, since the law was not given until the time of Moses, nor did the Patriarchs observe the Sabbath..

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

//Take for example the sin of sodomy, there is not one word against sodomy in genesis before Sodom was destroyed.

All that proves is that immorality was recognized for what it was long before Mt. Sinai. Mankind has a conscience inherent in his very being that would tell him is something (like bestiality) is morally wrong.
---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13


prior to the time of Moses, there is not even a hint of any record that the Sabbath was part of the worship of the Hebrew people.
---e.lee7537 on 3/22/13

Not even close to being true

It is NOT the purpose of the book of Genesis to tell us details of the law of God, yet every Law of God is in Genesis including the Sabbath.

Take for example the sin of sodomy, there is not one word against sodomy in genesis before Sodom was destroyed

The bible says that where there is no law these is no sin.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
---francis on 3/22/13


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Two NO's. No, circumcision is not a mention in the Ten Commandments. It is instruction to Abraham and his descendants, it preceded the Ten Commandments and is not amoung the Ten Commandments or even mentioned amoung the Ten Commandments. Still it is a commandment for Israel. Circumcision is not required to be saved. The New Testament teachings make circumcision obsolete. Paul speaks against circumcision. We now are looking at circumcised hearts. The inward. Not the outward. Of course females are not circumcised and the rule never applied to women or foreignors. It makes a distinction between holy and unholy. Now Christ in us and love of God is the sign.
---Born on 3/22/13


Francis //And there was NO command given to anyone prior to Mt. Sinai.
___
You are correct that the Sabbath was anticipated prior to the giving of the commandments. However, one thing that you have to admit is that prior to the time of Moses, there is not even a hint of any record that the Sabbath was part of the worship of the Hebrew people. Of course, you read into some verse as Genesis 26:5 that Abraham observed the Sabbath but that cannot be substantiated even by Jewish scholars.

In any case, you really have no convincing argument that the OT Sabbath was imposed onto the Gentile church.

Again anything that is essential to the Christian walk would be in the New Testament, not the Old.
---e.lee7537 on 3/22/13


While scripture attest to the fact God "ceased" His creative activities on the 7th day, this was a single event not to be repeated. And there was NO command given to anyone prior to Mt. Sinai to observe the 7th day.
---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13
See exodus 16, and Exodus 5:1

In addition that commandment in exodus 29 makes it clear that every 7th day from the day of creation was blessed, sanctified, and holy and was a day of rest
---francis on 3/21/13


Gordon//The Sanctified 7th Day, which is the Sabbath, existed BEFORE the Jewish religion began.
---
While scripture attest to the fact God "ceased" His creative activities on the 7th day, this was a single event not to be repeated. And there was NO command given to anyone prior to Mt. Sinai to observe the 7th day.

So your reasoning for Sabbath observance is simply faulty.

Again, if the Lord has desired His church to observe any day of the week, we would see it penned in the Epistles as well as taught in the early church.

Sorry guy but the saints of God's church, many of whom were direct successors of the Apostles did not teach Sabbath observance. And that is one fact that you cannot deny.
---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13


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e.lee, The Sanctified 7th Day, which is the Sabbath, existed BEFORE the Jewish religion began. That's what GENESIS 2:1-3 is saying! GOD only wrote the Sabbath Observance down on Stone Tablets years later when HIS people left Egypt, and among those people of GOD were what the KJV calls "strangers", which were GENTILES, who ALSO began trusting in and following the GOD of the Hebrew people, alongside the Hebrews. So, that should set off a spark in your spirit that those Commands, which includes the Sabbath, was and IS, for A*N*Y*O*N*E who follows that very same GOD, Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.
---Gordon on 3/19/13


If that is true, then where can i find: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, AND Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith:
In the New Covenant?---francis on 3/18/13

Romans 13:9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
---e.lee7537 on 3/19/13

Is your answer that "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, AND Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith:" are covered under ANY OTHER COMMANDMENTS?
---francis on 3/19/13


And that is why everything essential for our doctrines is found in the New Covenant.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13
If that is true, then where can i find: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, AND Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith:
In the New Covenant?

Romans 13:9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
---e.lee7537 on 3/19/13


Samuelbb7,
you're correct that the New Testament nowhere forbids keeping the Sabbath.

But, it does say that a weaker brother (Romans 14:1) who believes he must "observe the day" (verse 5) should not be judging those who know the liberty found in Christ, while those who have liberty should not despise the weaker brethren who are bound by observances
---James_L on 3/19/13


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Samuel, Jewish congregations met on the Sabbath, they were following the Law, that is where the Jews met. If the apostles had a message from God to deliver, they would go to the place the met. Why go down-town, they were not going to be there?
You said,
"Yes Sabbath keeping became very unpopular and it still is. Most do not want to spend a whole day with GOD"
God is Spirit, we are born of the Spirit, we are with God every second of the day. We thank Him and glorify Him everyday. We do not need one perticular day. We are not under the written letter of the Law, we are under the Spirit of the Law. I have no problem with you spending one day with God. The problem is when SDA's want everyone else to do the same.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/13


I notice Lee that in the New Testament which includes the Four Gospels the Sabbath is referred too many time. Paul mentions it about not judging others on how they keep it. But no rule is given against keeping the Sabbath.

Yes Sabbath keeping became very unpopular and it still is. Most do not want to spend a whole day with GOD.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/13


And that is why everything essential for our doctrines is found in the New Covenant.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13
If that is true, then where can i find: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, AND Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith:
In the New Covenant?


God did NOT quit working.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13
Genesis 2:2 and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

THE PRIEST DO NOT QUIT WORKING ON THE SABBATH EITHER
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

religious work, and works of mercy which God does are allowed on the sabbath
---francis on 3/18/13


Gordon -While Silence IS Golden when it comes to those that talk too much and are ignorant, silence would not be golden when it comes to things essential for our eternal salvation and walk.

And that is why everything essential for our doctrines is found in the New Covenant.

Most certainly if observance of the Sabbath were important for the Christian we would see something in the New Testament as well as taught in the early church, many of whose leaders were direct successors of the Apostles themselves.

the Sabbath being unique to the Jewish religion would certainly have made Christianity to be viewed only as another sect of Judaism and that would have been problematic in the persecution of the Jews.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


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//If the question asks is: How did god cease from his own works, there is only ONE answer: God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

It would be more accurate to say God 'ceased' from His work of Creation on the 7th period called day in Genesis- a one time event. God did NOT quit working.

John 5:16-17 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I am working.

The rest of God depicted the rest of believers as they themselves need not labor further for their eternal salvation. Hebrews 4.

And that means trust in God for salvation.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


e.lee7537, I said that there is no direct Commandment recorded in the Canon saying "Remember the (7th Day) Sabbath to keep it holy...". But, since it was an understood Commandment and design of GOD's from the Beginning (for GOD sanctified the 7th Day in GENESIS 2:1-3) and up into the time of the beginning of the Church, it should be cause for concern that it is still an important issue with GOD. Silence IS Golden. If GOD HIMSELF did not say to stop observing the Sabbath, then that's a slight clue that HE hasn't really done away with it at all. Only religious man has. So I don't really give two hoots and a holler about what day you choose to square dance. Just remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
---Gordon on 3/18/13


---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS

If the question asks is: How did god cease from his own works, there is only ONE answer: God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

If I told anyone that they must rest from their work, the same way God did from his the ONLY way is : the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,

There is only ONE verse is the bible that says rest in the lord:
Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

It means trust God
---francis on 3/18/13


Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day,
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Circumcision isnot in the TEN COMMANDMENT,

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

It is not required for salvation
---francis on 3/18/13


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Gordon // And, there's no Biblical "proof" that YAHUSHUA arose on the 1st day of the week (Sunday).

I believe that all the early records that state Jesus arose on the first day of the week should be sufficient reason to believe the Resurrection was on Sunday.

While there is NOTHING in the Scripture as you admitted that we need to observe any day as holy, it is really a matter of personal convictions.

In other words I could care less if you do the jig on Fridays, Saturdays, or Sundays.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


Gordon// And who would be more trustworthy...The first Church which was mightily empowered by the Holy Spirit or those Churches who later, were even more influenced by infiltrating wolves that entered in to divide the Church and corrupt the true Doctrines and Commandments of the LORD?

Neither as the church even from its very conception was wrought with dissension and heresies. We can easily see that in both the Epistles as well as in church history.


//Much of the Church is worse off today than ever before.

the majority of churches today have compromised with the world system and no longer preach the Gospel. Scripture teaches the end time church will be an apostate church and headed up by the false prophets.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


e.lee, And, there's no Biblical "proof" that YAHUSHUA arose on the 1st day of the week (Sunday). The Scriptures say that the women went early in the morning to the Tomb on the 1st day (Sunday). But, the Tomb was already empty when they got there. The only Verse that some Believers can use to defend a Sunday Resurrection is MARK 16:9. It says, "Now when YAHUSHUA was risen early the first day of the week..." That word "risen" is treated as a Verb when it actually could be an Adjective. Meaning, when He was in His "risen state" on the 1st day..."
---Gordon on 3/18/13


//Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

That would mean on the 7th day, Sabbath Not in Christ, not on first day
---
It is those that have BELIEVED that have entered His rest , not those who observed the 7th day As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest, although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. (4:3)

Agree the early church grew up around synagogues, church history tell us they met on Sundays to break bread - something they could not do in the synagogues.

But as opposition from the Jews increased, they could not participate in the synagogues worship.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


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Francis //Where is the apostasy like to come in the early church that met on Sabbath or the latter churches that met on Sundays?
---
Both the scripture and history tells us that the apostasy that came unto the church concerned the divinity of Christ - Gnosticism. See 1 John.

Another heretical problem dealt with those that sought to go back under the law. We see that in the Epistle to the Galatians.

It is really an inescapable fact of church history that the church by the beginning of the second century no longer observed the Sabbath. But if that is true, then it is obvious that the leaders, many of whom were direct successors of the Apostles did not teach Sabbath observance.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.
---e.le7537 on 3/17/13
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

That wold mean on the 7th day, sabbath
Not in Christ, not on first day

The early church was built around the Jewish synagogues where Moses was read every Sabbath day.
---e.lee7537 on 3/17
So then we are in agreement, that none of the apostles ever saw any church that met on Sundays.

Where is the apostacy like to cme in the early chruch that met on sabbath or the latter churches that met ons undays?
---francis on 3/18/13


e.lee7537, And who would be more trustworthy...The first Church which was mightily empowered by the Holy Spirit and was fresh and vibrant in the hearts of many, or those Churches who, some decades later, who were even more influenced by infiltrating wolves that entered in to divide the Church and corrupt the true Doctrines and Commandments of the LORD? Much of the Church is worse off today than ever before. Things, for the majority, have only spiraled down SINCE the first century. It's NOT that the LORD has not done great Works in HIS faithful Believers and redeemed many lost souls and all that, but the great Falling Away, prophecied in II THESSALONIANS 2:3 began early in time and is continuing on through today until the Anti-Christ.
---Gordon on 3/18/13


Gordon//True, there is not Verse in the N.T. that says "We must observe Sabbath", but, neither is there a Verse that says "The Sabbath itself was abolished".
---

Yours is totally an argument from SILENCE. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit neglected to mention the need for His church to observe the Sabbath?

And does not your view conflict with that of the early church whose leaders did NOT preach observance of the Sabbath?

Many of these early leaders were direct successors of the Apostles.

So if the observance of the Jewish Sabbath were important they must certainly would have taught it as well commanded it in the Epistles- anything essential to our walk would be found in the New Covenant.
---e.lee7537 on 3/17/13


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Francis
//Circumcision is a blood covenant which came AFTER SIN, which was a covenant that God through Abraham would bless all nations.

Ge 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

//There is no way to do away with the fact that in six days the LORD made heaven and rested the seventh day:

And as a commandment the Sabbath merely foretold the rest the believer enters into in Christ. Hebrew 4:3-5

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all his works. And again in this passage he said,They shall not enter my rest.
---e.le7537 on 3/17/13


//"For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

The early church was built around the Jewish synagogues where Moses was read every Sabbath day.

Jewish Christians continued to observe the Mosaic laws including circumcision, the dietary laws, as the Sabbath day, but as Gentiles became believers, there was tension between them and Jewish Christians.

This tension lead to the Apostles at Jerusalem in declaring Gentile believers did not have to observe laws that were distinctly Jewish in nature. Acts 15
---e.lee7537 on 3/17/13


"For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

James was specific. Now, in agreement with you Gordon, I find that Paul taught much more than that stated in Acts 15 as for example
he directly taught the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother." (Ephesians 6:2).
In Acts 10, the Holy Ghost fell in them of Cornelius household and "they of the circumcision which believed were astonished" and
afterwards what did Peter ask for? Just water for baptism, no knife or an invitation to church on Saturday.
---Nana on 3/17/13


--e.lee7537 on 3/16/13
Sabbath is a sign that God is the creator of the world, It stated before there was ONE SINGLE SIN in the world

Circumcision is a blood covenant which came AFTER SIN, which was a covenant that God through Abraham would bless all nations

Jesus Christ is that blessing which was promises. Jesus death fulfilled the promise to Abraham that the blessing of Abraham would come to all nations, that Jesus would forgive their sins

There is no way to do away with the fact that in six days the LORD made heaven and rested the seventh day:

Not even through the death and resurrection of Jesus can this be changed
---francis on 3/17/13


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e.lee7537, The early new-born Church kept the 7th Day Sabbath as recorded in the Book of ACTS. They continued observing Sabbath since Pentecost. The Church comprised of Gentiles as well as Jewish Believers (for, in YAHUSHUA, there is neither Jew nor Gentile). True, there is not Verse in the N.T. that says "We must observe Sabbath", but, neither is there a Verse that says "The Sabbath itself was abolished". The new Church kept the Sabbath, and so should we.
---Gordon on 3/17/13


In Acts 15 Paul took to "the apostles and elders, with the whole church" who stated in a letter to " the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia"
stating:
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things,
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
---Nana on 3/17/13


Gordon - regarding your reply to Nana, some would argue a covenant is liken to a Last Will and Testament in that a more recent one makes any previous Wills obsolete. And in view of Scripture itself the Old Sinaitic Covenant became obsolete with the New Covenant(Hebrews 8:13)

If a vintage automobile willed to my son in my Last Will and Testament was destroyed it would not be mentioned in a newer Will.

It is exactly the same with Sabbath observance in that if the New Covenant did not mention that the church needed to observe it, then what logical reasoning would there be to observe the OT Sabbath? What you really are doing is forcing an obsolete tenet unto the Church - old wine into new wineskins.
---e.lee7537 on 3/16/13


Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The promise was made before circumcision

Abraham then had a son born based on his own thinking

Then was given the sign of circumcision, that by faith Abraham would have a son with his wife, through which the whole world would be blessed. If Abraham and Sarah had waited on the Lord and not entered into their own thinking, there would be no circumcision

Circumcision is a blood covenant, a sign given because of lose of faith, which came to and end on the cross, Jesus being the Son of blessing to the whole world who accept the blessing of Abraham: Righteousness by faith
---francis on 3/16/13


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circumcism is a picture of salvation. we are born again by the blood of Jesus Christ.
---shira4368 on 3/16/13


I HAVE MADE A STUDY OF THE ANCIENT SCRIPTS OF LAW. IT SYS "SABATH SUNNATH". IT REVEALS THE THIRD COMMANDMENT. IS IT A REQUIREMENT TO BE SAVED? DEPENDS ON THE SAVIOUR! ARCHAEOLOGICAL PROOF IS AVAILABLE.
---Joseph_ROY on 3/16/13


What is circumcision?
---Love.wins on 3/15/13


Gen 17:10,11--Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham-not everyone needed circumcised to have the promise. It was "everlasting."
Exo 31:13-17--Sabbath keeping was a sign of hte covenant of the children of Isreal--not everyone had to keep the Sabbath to have the promise. It was "perpetual."
Acts 15:24b ...[Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things,
--None of which were Sabbath or Circumcision adherance.
---micha9344 on 3/15/13


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Nana, Because in the past, whenever I'd say that we are to observe the Sabbath, some would argue that because we're no longer under the Law but under Grace, and that we, therefore, no longer have to observe Sabbath just as we no longer have to be circumcised. They almost always, if not always, mix the Sabbath Law issue in with the law of Circumcision, when they're each from two different sets of Laws. Circumcision is NOT one of the Ten Commandments, and, therefore, it's nulification can't be used to argue the nullification of the Sabbath, since, again, Circumcision and the Sabbath are both from two different sets of Laws. I wanted to clarify about Circumcision no longer being a law, but point out that the Sabbath is still a valid Command.
---Gordon on 3/15/13


The "Whole Law" includes the 10 commandments.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13
The same person who wrote Galations, also wrote these:
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more:

These are from the ten commandments as we all know:

"Whole law" in the CONTEXT refers to the whole Law of Moses, all blood sacrifices which circumcision is a blood sacrifice.

It cannot be a reference to the ten commandments because the same author also commands the ten commandments
---francis on 3/15/13


Is circumcision of males one of the Ten Commandments? And, is circumcision a requirement to be saved?
---Gordon on 3/14/13
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day,
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

No such thing in the TEN COMMANDMENT, and since the death of Jesus it has not been required by Jew or non Jew
---francis on 3/15/13


Psalms 24: 9-10 Circumcision of the heart (not of the flesh) for all persons male or female is a requirement to accepting Jesus Christ as one's God, Lord and Saviour, which leads to being saved.
---Adetunji on 3/15/13


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I could understand the second part of the query, "is circumcision a requirement to be saved?" but, what prompted you to ask, "Is circumcision of males one of the Ten Commandments?"
---Nana on 3/15/13


"Is circumcision of males one of the Ten Commandments?" No.
"is circumcision a requirement to be saved?" No.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Gal 5:6
---josef on 3/15/13


Physical circumcision was merely the entrance rite into the Jewish religion. Acts 15:1

If one came to believe in the god of the Jews and wanted to participate in any of its ordinances, then that person (the proselyte) needed to undergo circumcision.

Anyone that became circumcised was obligated to observe all the laws of Judaism.

Galatians 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

The "Whole Law" includes the 10 commandments.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


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