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Does Predestined Equal Saved

Eph. 1:4-5 In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will....

Does the Bible teach that those predestined by God will certainly be saved eternally?

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 ---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13
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Mark,
I didn't lie at all. You just proved my point in your sencond entry.

You think "born again" means having a change in disposition, but not substance. That is totally contrary to scripture

Being born again means having our sin removed. How can one be washed by God and still be a sinner?

You teach that very contradiction, so you do not teach that we are born again. You use the words "born of the Spirit", but define it contrary to scripture

Do you know that no sin, even "covered" sin, will enter heaven? At what point do you believe our sin is removed so that we are holy enough to enter?
---James_L on 3/20/13


>---Mark_V. on 3/20/13

This is where you do lie MarkV. Your definition of Born Again is not scriptural, and that makes you a liar. "AFTER you believed THEN you were sealed by the Holy Spirit." SO SAYS GOD! One is Baptized Into Christ by the Holy Spirit not before he ever hears or believes, but is the result of believing. You cannot be a member of Jesus BODY before believing. That is a TOTAL LIE FROM HELL!

JamesL is no liar MarkV...you are.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/13


Here is God's TRUTH.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling,
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit
1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/13


James L, at least do not lie when you answer, first you say about the Spirit,
" You don't teach it either, Mark."
Then turn around and say:
"Yet, you teach that one is "born again" (whatever you mean by that) before he ever hears the word. And that after being washed, ironed, cleansed, etc that he is still spotted and wrinkled"
So why say I do not teach it? You are not even an honest person. Something else, I never said what you claim I said,
" And that after being washed, ironed, cleansed, etc that he is still spotted and wrinkled"
I never said such a thing. You dishonestly lie to everyone, so that others believe I said that. When you lie, you compromise the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 3/20/13


James L 2: What I've said is, that a person needs to be born of God first in order for the person to have a new heart towards Christ. The Father has to drawn them to Himself first. Without a new heart, they will never love the Lord. The minute one is alive to Christ by the Spirit, he is together with Christ spiritually. Even before he even opens the Bible. When he hears the gospel, he will believe it by the faith given to him,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ, for by grace you have been saved and raised us up together, and made us seat together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4-6).
---Mark_V. on 3/20/13




Mark V,
Correction to my last post...

Born again means recreated **without** spot or wrinkle, through the Word of God.
---James_L on 3/19/13


//....born of the Spirit. In the RCC there is no such thing. That is why they do not teach it.\\
---Mark_V. on 3/18/13

You don't teach it either, Mark.

Titus 3:5 ...saved through the "washing" of born again

Eph 5:25-27 ...Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her...having cleansed her by the "washing" of water with the word...having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing...


Born again means recreated with spot or wrinkle, through the Word of God.

Yet, you teach that one is "born again" (whatever you mean by that) before he ever hears the word. And that after being washed, ironed, cleansed, etc that he is still spotted and wrinkled
---James_L on 3/18/13


Peter, I never said there was no one in the RCC who was not born of the Spirit. When God brings someone to spiritual life, no one knows who they are. What a person does know is that they begin to seek God. For no one lost seeks after God. The fact is that many great man have come out of the RCC through history who had to be born of the Spirit, great man that didn't want to leave the RCC but wanted to reform it. If you read the history of the Church you will see what happened there. It is like Jesus said,
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes, So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
---Mark_V. on 3/19/13


Ro8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate....
No, God saved his people. Some would say this makes God unfair/unjust? See Romans 9:14
---trey on 3/16/13

Trey reads his Bible, and doesn't ignore the Prophets. Thousands of verses testify/witness to those seeking with heart, eyes & ears.

Luke 1:68
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he hath visited and redeemed his people,...

John 1:31
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Matt 15:2424 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, ....
---Trav on 3/19/13


From the beginning God knows the # that Is In His Acts 2 v 38 will be saved. The strait gate.
He also knows The Vast #'s who will be lost, the trinity Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6, those that worship the gods of buddha, hindu etc, even the j - witness, atheist, ordinary sinners etc, God KNows. Broad is the way that leads to destruction, hell & the lake of fire. & be many to go in thereat. This is about 70% of people since 325 yr's aft the day of Pentecost till the rapture takes place.
---Lawrence on 3/18/13




Leej, does that mean you have to look up spiritual death on the Internet to get an answer? I don't need to GOOGLE or You-tube anything to get an answer. I CAN ask God and He answers. I already KNOW what the bible says, not some Calvinist explanation on "got questions ". But if you want a non Calvinist Internet answer, look up "Let us Reason".

So there ya go. You could not answer the question. Even with clear scripture that THAT WHICH WAS FIRST was not spiritual, but Carnal.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Mark V: ' born of the Spirit. In the RCC there is no such thing......"

That they do not teach it (That is why they do not teach it.), no, they do not - as far as I know

But 'there is no such thing' is overstating it. You take what is true, that they do not teach it, and proceed to say that there is no one born of the Spirit in the RCC, but I assume there are some people
---Peter on 3/18/13


MarkV, no worries my friend! I new you just misread it. I just didn't want anyone else to think I believed that!

Take care.
---trey on 3/18/13


Ruben, we are talking about believers who are born of the Spirit. In the RCC there is no such thing. That is why they do not teach it. How could you possibly know? The parable you gave of the lost son, is a parable. Unbelievers do not understand parables. I heard some of you say, "but you can leave Him" which is impossible if Jesus says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" How can you leave someone who will never leave you?
And we are talking about God here, concerning those that God draws to Himself and gives to Christ, not some person who lies and says "they will never leave you, and suddenly leave you." It takes true faith to believe and trust in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/18/13


kathr4453 - if you really want to know what is meant by spiritual death, suggest you goggle GotQuestion?org and reference "what is spiritual death".

I really do not feel the need to spoon fed you every concept that is in the Bible.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


LeeJ, can you prove through scripture at least 3 scriptures where we are "SPIRITUALLY" DEAD. Please don't assume dead means "SPIRITUALLY" DEAD.

Adam & Eve were never SPIRITUALLY ALIVE to begin with. They would have had to eat of that other tree..the one making them spiritually Alive with a fallen state. That's why God removed them from the Garden.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


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leej, here's the contradiction. If Adam/ Eve were at one time spiritually alive, and through sin their spirit died, why then can't your spirit die again and again through sin?

Now if Adam/Eve had their own spirit die, how then can you compare it to the Spirit of the Life of Christ in you? He did not come to revive our old dead spirit. Jesus didn't have to die and rise again just to revive your dead spirit. It's the Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST, His RISEN LIFE in us that is eternal. Adam/Eve never had the Spirit of the crucified and risen Christ in them EVER!

1st Corinthians clearly tell us that was not first that was "SPIRI"ual, but carnal. Even Adam/Eve before they fell were only carnal.

Apples to oranges.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


I agree with MarkV!. Once the spiritually dead becomes a believer that person becomes a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Christ lives through that person both to will and to work for His good pleasure Php. 2:13.

However, there is still the battle with the flesh that involves our freedom of choice. Even the Apostle Paul complained For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Romans 7:19

As children of God we still may grieve (1 Th.5,19) or quench (Eph. 4:30) the work of that Spirit in transforming us into the image of Christ. And in that we have freedom of choice.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


I read nowhere that man after been drawn by God can separated Himself from God? Once God draws them by His Spirit when He makes them alive, they never go back to been dead.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/13

Mark,

Read Luke 15: 11-24

"Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me"

Here the Father allow you to walk away from his hand!

"Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight,"

Son(We) ask for forgivens.

"For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again ,"

Can not be dead and alive again unless you were first saved..
---Ruben on 3/18/13


Nana, you are right for once, though not doctrinally but about e.lee's stance on salvation. To be honest, for all his talk and so called profession of his believe in the sovereignty of God, his recent comment highlighted by you in that he said, "I believe that the Spirit of God does draw others to Himself but man has to accept the salvation offered to him in order to be saved", did take me by surprise though it wasn't so much of a shock.

That's why I am convicted by what Christ declared, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." That's how we know the fruits.

But you should be glad that now you have an ally in your "free-will" circle to include.
---christan on 3/18/13


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Eph. 1:4-5 In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will....////
Let's not overlook through Jesus Christ, or IN CHRIST here. God did not choose you independently as individual floating spirit babies. It is Christ who is the ELECT, and ONLY because we are members of His Body do we become the elect through our identification with Him in Death and resurrection life, not before. NO ONE was pre-crucified with Christ, being born into this world a new creature at birth. That's what Calvinists are saying and don't realize it, or maybe that's what they are saying???. Nor were you chosen In God and then transfered or placed In Christ before the foundation of the world.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Christan, the human institute of adoption has NOTHING what so,ever to do with the term adopted in scripture. I said ARE ALL those being adopted infants??? Did you fail to read THAT?

In human adoption, a agency finds COMPATIBILITY, some parents are looking for age, while other seeking parents are looking for like genes, some want a male, some female. There are all sores of criteria seeking parents are looking for. THEN FOR OLDER CHILDREN, there is that time of meeting, a getting to know you, a possible weekend overnight, to check compatibility.

Then some seeking parents want a background check, and health records, for possible issues.

ARE you saying THIS is God's criteria for ELECTION? It's getting more BAZAAR!
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Oh my gosh, and Christan dares to call Being adopted into the beloved, the same and compares it to Angelina and Brad Pitt. I'm screaming laughing here.

Christan, when we say ABBA FATHER, it has to do with the fact that HE REALLY IS OUR ABBA FATHER...not because we were adopted, but because we really ARE sons through Jesus Christ.

The NEW CREATURE is that son, not the old man.

Your ignorance just gave away your total lack of understanding the NEW BIRTH.

Next time THINK before you scoff Christan.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Brother Trey, I apologize. I did direct my answer to you by mistake. It was to be for brother elee. I am terribly sorry.
My answer is in regards to what elee quoted. Any other interpretation to the passages changes other passages in Scripture. That was the only part that I have disagreed with.
God does not force us to love Him, He enable us to Love Him by first loving us.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ for by grace you have been saved, and raised up together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Eph. 2:4-6). Nowhere is man's choice mentioned because we were dead.
---Mark_V. on 3/18/13


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Oh, too, isn't human adoption where the parents died, or the parents legally give a child up for adoption, because the can't care for the child. And you really think Satan is giving up anyone to God for adoption?

Christan, now we all have just a little more insite into your head and what you actually believe.

Human adoption gives no human any SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO TAKE AT WILL any child and make them your own.

Please STUDY to show yourself approved RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth.

You may want to start with Hebrews 2. Human adoption does not take the death and resurrection of anyone before any adoption can take place.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Hi Mark V, please re-read my comments. I never said that we have to accept.

It is God who saves!

What you speak of is the Arminian doctrine that I hate!

Many would call me a Calvanist or a Hyper-Calvanist. But I would call myself a Primitive Baptist.

We believe in a God that is mighty to save, and that does his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand!!!
---trey on 3/18/13


e.lee7537,

Seems Mark_V. has you confused with Trey... I expected either Mark_V. or christan to get on you concerning your statements on 3/17/13.
christan pretends you understand each other while Mark_V. drills you as if you were another. I'll stay tuned for the next episode.
---Nana on 3/17/13


Bro. Trey, I find your statement incorrect when you say,
"I believe that the Spirit of God does draw others to Himself but man has to accept the salvation offered to him in order to be saved."
First, man while dead, fallen, is separated from God. Then you say God draws them to Himself, which makes man not separated from God anymore, then man has the right to accept the drawing, or refuse it, and go back to been separated from God again. How is that possible? I read nowhere that man after been drawn by God can separated Himself from God? Once God draws them by His Spirit when He makes them alive, they never go back to been dead.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/13


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Trey 2: Although men and women are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief, genuine faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Once again, in the face of unbelief, Jesus reiterated God's sovereignly involved in selection for salvation.
"And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father"
All that are drawn to the Father, Jesus said He will raise them up at the last day. There is no man's choice in this process, it is all the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/13


e.lee, this is how mockers of predestination think: they've no choice but to admit predestination is explicitly mentioned and taught in Scripture. The Son of God was predestined to come into this world at a specific time and date that was prepared by the Father, to do His will or the OT prophets wouldn't have prophesied His coming.

Now to get their way round predestination, they say their god looked into the future and saw what was going to happen before He "predestined" things. Sadly, that isn't call predestination. For them, their god is a gypsy with a crystal ball.

You see, their god is really themselves wrapped by their imagination of something non-existent called "free-will", that's their god.
---christan on 3/17/13


Brother MarkV, there're many who doesn't even understand the earthly process of adopting a child and dare say, "the adoptive child has a say so in the adoptive process". How does an infant or a 2 year old have a say? In the first place, they don't even know they are parent-less and they are being adopted.

Go ask Pitt & Jolie, did the children they adopted decided that Pitt & Jolie become their rightful adopted parents? Adoption is a one-way process! If the child decides, that not call adoption anymore.

Jesus said to Nicodemus "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
---christan on 3/17/13


Nana//But the Calvinists and Predestinarians have trouble understanding the simplicity of the Word.
---
The problem I see is people simply do not understand Calvin or predestination, they think it is predetermination, that man is not given any freedom of choice at all in anything.

I believe that the Spirit of God does draw others to Himself but man has to accept the salvation offered to him in order to be saved. God does NOT force His love onto anyone, but He does use both believers and unbelievers to accomplish His will.

Not everyone will be saved.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
---e.lee7537 on 3/17/13


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"... My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.... Isaiah must have most certainly been a Calvinist..."
e.lee7537 on 3/16/13

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

God let Adam name. He did not choose for Adam. Likewise, when Go says in Isaiah 1, "Learn to do well, seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." That is exactly what he means. But the calvinists and predestinarians have trouble understanding the simplicity of the Word.
---Nana on 3/17/13


James L, you said,
"Not every "child" is a son (joint-heir), because some refuse to take up their cross. They will still be in heaven, with no inheritance (Gal 5:21)" First they don,t take up the cross, they don't follow Christ, and they still go to heaven? Then you give (Gal. 5:21) to indicate they go to heaven. Paul was talking about those of the flesh (v.19) with all the evil works, who practice those things,
"will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:21). And you say they will still be in heaven, the very opposite of what the passage is saying. I have looked it up many times and the passage does not change.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/13


Christan. Actually YES, the adoptive child has a say so in the adoptive process. If the child does not like, the child does not have to go.

Now on divorce cases where a child is under a certain age, the court decides.

God does nor uses worldly ways.

Are you assuming all adoptive children are Infants?

Calvinism believes in infant water baptism where one is re-birthed, regenerated,where the parent is saved, passing on that birthright of election to their children, making it one big cult family.

To be BORN AGAIN of the WORD, one must be personally active in HEARING and believing.
---kathr4453 on 3/17/13


Leon 2: God choses who will be saved and who will not. If God elected you to salvation, you will be saved no matter what anyone says. No amount of excuses are accepted. Free will is never mentioned, because if it was, then no babies, mentally ill persons would be saved. God's decision is final. He already knows who belongs to Him. No one can change His plan. No one.
Not even Kathr. For it is all by the grace of God. Not the grace of man.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/13


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Adoption today is different than adoption in OT or Roman times. Nero was adopted by his uncle to become heir and rule. Roman adoption was PAYING PARENTS MONEY for their son, and it was called "son placement".

So, who and with what did Jesus pay to purchase you? You were bought with a price, correct? Did he pay Satan for you? Did he give Satan His Blood to purchase you?

Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, but came to refuse to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

Israel was an adopted Nation by God to SERVE. Yet rebelled against God.....YOU SAY GOD did away with.

What makes your adoption today Christan any different? If God can throw away Israel, his firstborn, he can throw you away...right?
---kathr4453 on 3/17/13


John 1:11-13

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:.

13 Which were bornnot of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God..

Verse 12 clearly says TO THEM were given power to become sons. TO THEM gave he power to become...HUMMMMM,

Totally contradicts Christan's idea that Adoption is only one sided.
---kathr4453 on 3/17/13


Children are brought into the world through procreation, that is union between a man and woman, sperm, joining egg..where a woman conceives, and a man begets.

Now Christan wants you to believe your NEW BITRH was something that came about in the same manner.

HOGWASH!

Our BORN AGAIN experience came about when we died and rose again with Christ. The NEW CREATURE is now a son, begotten through Jesus Christ.

Do they actually believe their NEW BIRTH came about the same as Jesus birth, where Mary conceived, and the Holy Spirit overcame Mary's womb?

It sounds to me they don't have a clue HOW we were born again, if they compare to to childbirth.


The more they talk, the stranger their faith really is.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


I can't believe how so many quote Romans 8:29, and only see the word "predestined" and are blind to what that whole verse says.

Or, maybe they just don't understand what that whole verse says and means.

It "does not " say only certain people were predestined to salvation. It says we were predestined to be conformed to His image.

---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


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The Church argued this out for 2-3 centuries before it could 'sort of' sort it out

And a lot of this MAY HAVE BEEN the reason for the split between Rome and the Eastern churches (Rome agreed with St.Augusine, predestination, while the eastern churches did not want to take a side - they DID NOT agree with free will but they did not directly take the side of predestination)

So DO NO THINK you can sort this out on a wed blog

YOU CANNOT

YOU WILL JUST ARGUE MORE
---Peter on 3/17/13


Some deny that the Lord predestinates people to live with him in heaven.

Eph1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ro8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Some would say that the Lord predestinated some to go to hell. No, God saved his people. Some would say this makes God unfair/unjust? See Romans 9:14
---trey on 3/16/13


"Predestination means that some who were foreknown as sons were predestined to become those sons - joint-heirs (Rom 8:17)" JamesL

The "son-ship" according to Scriptures can only happen through ADOPTION by God, "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 4:5

Your theory of "sons" is most definitely not according to the Word, and it falls flat. In the fleshly adoption process, who does the choosing? The parent-to-be or the child? You must be real stupid if you say the child is the one who decides in the adoption process.

You lack the basic understanding of adoption in the flesh and you want to tell us about predestination?
---christan on 3/16/13


e.lee, that's what I thought. So that means that since 1 Timothy 2:4 reads that it is God's will that everyone be saved, everyone will therefore be saved. That's very cool. Thank you.
---Love.wins on 3/16/13


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No Leej, what I see is Isaiah saying all those things God prophesied to happen WILL HAPPEN. But nowhere did God PROPHECY that you would be saved. Regardless of who is saved or not, since God's plans and purpose from beginning to end do not hinge on whether Leej is saved or not. God will still fulfill His purpose with or without you. GOD DOES NOT NEED YOU to fulfill His plans.

I am going to the store. My family is coming with me to buy a sofa. Now if one decides not to come.....I'm STILL going to buy that sofa.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


Love.wins //If God wills something, is there anything I can do to make sure that what He wills won't happen?

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things, those of long ago, I am God, and there is no other, I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Of course, Kathr4453 will be quick to say that Isaiah must have most certainly been a Calvinist since he believed that God is Lord of all creation and could do whatever pleases Him and with whomever!
---e.lee7537 on 3/16/13


francis, predestination is "misunderstood"? How so?
---christan on 2/24/13

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not... willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is contrary to a God that will make people and predestine them to perish

What predestination is, is that God has predetermined that EVERYONE who repents ( no bias on God's part) will be saved

We are all called and elected to be saved

God has predestined that all who accept Jesus as lord ans saviour will be saved

Acts 10:34 I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
---francis on 3/16/13


I believe JamesL is talking about REWARDS, based on those works Paul said will either stand the test of fire or will in fact burn, (1st & 2nd Corinthians)yet that man will till be saved, but those works not done IN CHRIST will in fact burn, leaving no rewards for that person.

I'm not talking about rewards, as CHRIST HIMSELF is our inheritance.

But not all who say Lord Lord...only those who DO the WILL of God.

The WILL of God in this dispensation is to pick up your cross and follow Him into death and resurrection life, being conformed TO HIS IMAGE. This is what we were predestined to do. This is WHO/WHAT the CHURCH IS, members of His Body, keeping the SAME mind in you that was also in Christ, becoming obedient unto death.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


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Markv, you will never get it as long as you believe in re-birth, and not NEW BIRTH. Re-birth does not require a CROSS, the NEW BIRTH absolutely does.

You claim you were given eyes to SEE this.....yet, you argue against it non-stop.

Paul made very clear in Galatians the CROSS, and preached the POWER of the CROSS to be ours through out our Christian life.

But too, these are those who are CALLED...in ISAAC will thy seed be called. NOT JACOB.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


If God wills something, is there anything I can do to make sure that what He wills won't happen?
---Love.wins on 3/16/13


\\James L, where do you come out with what you said?...

...They are not sons of God but are in heaven with no inheritance? What kind of nonesense do you guys create?\\
---Mark_V on 3/16/13

I've showed you the scriptures before, and you rejected them. So why should I waste the time showing you again?

If you're "really" interested, you should go to the Old Testament and look at what it meant to be a firstborn, and a son, and see how they relate to being an heir, a recipient of an inheritance.

But I don't expect you to give it an honest look.

All I'll expect is your words of opposition without any scripture that says EXACTLY what you say
---James_L on 3/16/13


James L, where do you come out with what you said?


Not every "child" is a son (joint-heir), because some refuse to take up their cross

They will still be in heaven, with no inheritance (Gal 5:21)"


They are not sons of God but are in heaven with no inheritance? What kind of nonesense do you guys create? My goodness, most of you will do anything possible to avoid the Truth. All of God's children receive the promises of God. No one is better off then the other. We are equal, One body in Christ. Each a part of that Body. Each one of you are always building a case against the Truth, starting with Kathr and on down the line.
---Mark_V on 3/16/13


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I am given to understand that people who believe in predestination are predestined, and those who don't, aren't. Is that correct?
---Love.wins on 3/15/13

Easy to verify. Start with the word Elect,search scriptures around this word. Compare doctrinal screamers to, prophets and apostles who lived and died the truth.
Don't argue with "GOD" who handpicked these, you will have a less frustrating experience. Self promoting false/bogus preachers may tell you they preached 665 times...this does not qualify as meat. Witnesses upholding each other satisfy hunger.
Isa 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
---Trav on 3/16/13


The doctrine of Predestination does not conform to the bilical teaching of Predestination

In the OT, a man might have many "children" but only one "son"

Abraham was willing to offer his "only son" even though he had two "children" at the time

Christ, the firstborn or Son or heir of God

Predestination means that some who were foreknown as sons were predestined to become those sons - joint-heirs (Rom 8:17)

Not every "child" is a son (joint-heir), because some refuse to take up their cross

They will still be in heaven, with no inheritance (Gal 5:21)
---James_L on 3/16/13


Yes, but being predestined includes how God's word guarantees that He makes us perfect in His love so that "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17) And included, therefore, is that we are "conformed to the image of His Son", as Paul says in Romans 8:29. And this comes with being "joined to the Lord" so each of us is "one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If we are one spirit with the Holy Spirit, we will be changed to how His love is. And this is what gives us "boldness in the day of judgment" > again > 1 John 4:17.
---willie_c: on 3/16/13


Nana, everyday it is the same thing. No matter the passages that speak concerning God, most of you reject them, when really all you guys are doing is seeking your independence from God. Sinful man wanting their own self-righteous deeds over the rights of God. That's why the Bible to you Ruben and a few others is not final authority. your traditional teachings over-rule Scripture. Every denominational church that teaches free will is doing the same thing. Seeking their independence from God. The fruit of that is emnity against God. God's rights mean nothing. RCC, Eastern Orthodox, SDA's with their laws, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, all teach salvation by works. The sinners own good deeds over the works of God.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/13


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Again read WHAT God predestined, not just WHO. God predestined that there would be a company of Saints , called the CHURCH, To be Adopted Sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. These are those who are crucified with Christ, and raised up a "NEW CREATURE", MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, called the CHURCH. We have been predestined to be conformed TO HIS DEATH, being conformed to His image.

This was not required of OT Saints, or those saved after the rapture of the CHURCH. The CHURCH has a HIGHER CALLING than anyone else ever did, to reign and rule with Christ for 1000 years, sitting with Christ on HIS Throne at that time. ALL 7 letters to the CHURCHES clarify a special calling and privilege to the Church?

That's the WHAT was predestined.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


#2. Therefore predestination and salvation are two entirely different issues. Like comparing apples with oranges. BECAUSE those who only pick and choose verses here and there, and fail to read the WHOLE of scripture have fallen short of understanding what was predestined first, before we get to WHO was predestined. THE CHURCH was predestined for this special calling. The CHURCH are those who are saved during this age of GRACE. Or as Paul says this dispensation of Grace...also clearly stated in Ephesians.

Just as ISRAEL was predestined to be God's earthly people through the descendants of Jacob earthly seed, the CHURCH is predestined to be God's HEAVENLY people through that of being begotten sons through Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Tim. 2:3-4)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. (Titus 2:11)

The fact is: No one has ever been predestined to be lost! Therefore no one has been predestined to be saved.

Who so ever will may today be a member of the Heavenly Church, the BODY of Christ, through faith in Jesus death and resurrection. But know that faith in His death and resurrection means YOU are partakers by faith of His death and resurrection. ..Galatians 2:20-21...and read what Paul tells us in Philippians 3. It doesn't get any clearer than that.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/13


I am given to understand that people who believe in predestination are predestined, and those who don't, aren't. Is that correct?
---Love.wins on 3/15/13


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"Are you blind? The reason those "walked no more with him" (verse 66) is simply because Christ declared before verse 66, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (verse 65)"
christan on 3/15/13

No, it is you that is blind and impertinent.
The reason they walked no more with him is that they did not believe and were exposed. Jesus said so in v64, "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.", v65
---Nana on 3/15/13


"Those who did not walk away (JHn 6:66)Those who listen and learns" Ruben

Are you blind? The reason those "walked no more with him" (verse 66) is simply because Christ declared before verse 66, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (verse 65).

Conveniently both you and Nana "choose" to miss verse 44 and then 65 (which is critical). It's printed in black/white right before your eyes and yet you "reject" the Truth.

You may think it's because of your "free-will" but truth be told, the Father has purposed it and you cannot resist but do His will.
---christan on 3/15/13


"The Gospel of John was written many years after Jesus left, I guess because they die they had no clue what Jesus really meant to say!:)" 1stCliff

"It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
---christan on 3/15/13


christan * If the Gospel of John stopped at chapter 5, I may agree with you. However, there are twenty-one chapters in the Gospel of John!

The Gospel of John was written many years after Jesus left, I guess because they die they had no clue what Jesus really meant to say!:)
Why would Jesus say what He said if he didn't really mean it?

christan * Yes, the Father has to draw you first, period.

The gospel did not finish on vs 44, 45 says those who 'listen' and 'Learned' goes to Jesus!


christan *What "free-will"?

Those who did not walk away (JHn 6:66)
Those who listen and learns
---Ruben on 3/15/13


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"They are born already of God and only those receive Him and become children of God."
---Mark_V. on 3/15/13

Not so and What you just said is nonsense. You are saying "they are born already" which already makes them "children".

christan,
Bark all you want, you just proved once more that you do not accept the simplicity of the Word.
---Nana on 3/15/13


Nana, you quote John 5:39,40 to tell us that it's possible to go to Christ for eternal life by your "free-will"? If the Gospel of John stopped at chapter 5, I may agree with you. However, there are twenty-one chapters in the Gospel of John!

Christ declaration in John 5:40,"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" is simply because John 6:44 has not taken place to those who "will not come to Him", and that is, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Yes, the Father has to draw you first, period. What "free-will"? Zero! Non-existence! Figment of your imagination! Deception!
---christan on 3/15/13


Rev.20:6 reads, Blessed and Holy is he that had part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power, yes they are saved, they were judged in the first world age and found to be rightous Rom. 8:30. They stood against satan in the first world age and God can trust them and use them against satan again when he comes claiming to be Christ. God bless
---Clarence on 3/15/13


Another great passage given:
"John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" And who are those that believe and become children of God? We are told on the very next passage:
"who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13) They are born already of God and only those receive Him and become children of God.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/13


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To everyone that has received him, it is he, who has given the power to become the sons of God!
Even to those, who just believed in his name, it is he, who has given the power.

And true! Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life.
But it's not in the scriptures, it is in Christ. Joh_14:6!

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And yes, there are they which testify of him!

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
But, that ye all might live!
Peace
---TheSeg on 3/15/13


John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
John 5:39_40 "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

But calvinist or otherwise predestination advocates jump though hoops to prove the simplicity of the Word as wrong.
They would argue that John 5:40 really means, 'And ye COULD not come to me, that ye might have life.'
---Nana on 3/15/13


MOST DEFINITELY!

Scripture EXPLICITLY declares, "IN LOVE He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ", ie, He purposed the adoption.

God's love can never be thwarted nor challenged. His divine love is precisely what saves the sinner from their sin. And He expressed His love by "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". Paul confirms,

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD."
---christan on 3/15/13


E. Lee the chosen were 'predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom 8:29,30
Therefore "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Rom 8:32,33
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Rom 8:1
---Josef on 3/15/13


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lee,
but the passage in Romans 5 is dealing only with physical death, not eternal judgement in the lake of fire.

Notice that it says "having been justified" - having been declared righteous (the thrust of chapters 3 & 4) on account of His death and blood

After He died, He rose. And we are assured that as He lives (resurrected) we shall also.

Compare the wording of later verses in chapter 5 to what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 15 and you should be able to see that

Also, keep reading to 6:5 which says "if we have become united with Him in death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection

That's only 5 verses after chapter 5 ends
---James_L on 3/14/13


James_L //What do you mean by saved eternally ??

Saved in the same sense as being saved from the wrath of God to come.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
---e.lee7537 on 3/14/13


Rom 8:28 the "all things" are all the things contained within the 8th chapter of Romans.

Romans 8:28 the Lord loves a people and "calls" them effectually - meaning his call if effective. It get's the job done.

Rom 8:29 The people God foreknew (meaning loved before the foundation of the world) he predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. This begins with the new birth and is completed when we are glorified.

Rom 8:30 Those predestinated he effectually calls and those called he justified and finally will glorify. Note "glorified" is in the past tense meaning in God's mind the work is as good as done.

So the answer is "YES"!!!
---trey on 3/14/13


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