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Do Saints Escape Great Tribulation

Do the saints escape the tribulation by being raptured? Please give Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 3/17/13
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Mark, the question was simple, You said, Abraham knew Christ was going to die for our sins and he would resurrect.
Now you admit he didn't know. Very good
---michael_e on 3/23/13


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains,

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?


Leej, why do you call the very words of scripture a lie?
---kathr4453 on 3/23/13


The point is Leej, no such time took place right before Stephen was stoned.

Who in Revelation was asking the rocks to fall on them to hide them from God's wrath? Stephen's death in no way is God's wrath on anyone.

But thanks for the opportunity to correct minor detailing here. Scripture itself rather than from personal wording is the way to go.

If the CHURCH is saved from the WRATH "TO COME" God's WRATH, then we know that time has not yet come.
---kathr4453 on 3/23/13


Leej, I'm sure Ellen also found that in Revelation 6, and didn't just make it up.

So now we have several versions of this horrible day, one ending in 70ad, one with Stephen, and those who believe this day is yet to come.

It's not an Ellen White teaching, Leej, as many great bible scholars believe it is yet to come.

You believe it happened in70AD correct? And what "man" told you that?
---kathr4453 on 3/23/13


Kathr, you lie again and say,
"He totally makes fun of every verse referencing the CROSS Paul has made in scripture."
That is how much you have to lie to try to make your heresy true, but nothing you say can make them true. I don't love the Cross, it was a piece of wood that was used to crucify our Lord and Savior. Why should I like it? I never make fun of any passages that mention the Cross, but none say that the cross saved anyone, in fact the Word of God teaches that people died on Crosses as Jesus did. The Cross does not give life, Jesus Christ does. The Only Begotten Son who is eternal, the One you do not believe. Most of you who are found guilty of demeaning the Truth, will do anything to cover your own heresies.
---Mark_V. on 3/23/13




---kathr4453 on 3/22/13
What I am saying is this:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined... Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This is about Jesus confirming the New Covenant with many for 7 years
3 1/2 by Jesus himself, and the end of which his death
caused all sacrifices to cease, 3 1/2 by the Apostles. 7 years to Jews only

At the end of 7 years, the Gospel started going out to Non-Jews

Matthew 26:28 this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many... .

Hebrews 2:3..which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him,
---francis on 3/23/13


Michael e. you ask a few questions about the death of Christ whether it was known.
(Gen. 3:15) was the first time that Jesus death was announced by God. While the whole message was not fully explained, the reason been that the History of Scripture was just beginning. The history of Jesus Christ which is the gospel was just beginning, and through the times it was announced by many prophets and as it was taught more and more of Christ was known to the people yet He had not died nor had He been sent by God. No one knew the complete gospel of Christ until His resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit who was to teach the believer all things. For Christ was forknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world.
---Mark_V. on 3/23/13


You know trey, that' s probably what they all were saying before the flood .

I can imagine too that that night was also terrifying when God passed over all the firstborn in the households of Israel, and the cries of horror hearing the firstborn of all of Egypt dying, hearing their mothers and fathers cry out.

Now Markv, unlike any truly Godly person , would actually be laughing and celebrating during a time like that.

Just look at all he scoffs at now. He totally makes fun of every verse referencing the CROSS Paul has made in scripture. WHY, because he doesn't understand the SPIRITUAL meaning. That's because Markv is still carnal in thinking.

Are you carnal in thinking too trey?
---kathr4453 on 3/23/13


kathr4453//Really, and it was so hot, that men hid in caves wanting mountains to fall on them and kill them....and this is recorded as having happened.......where?
---
It is right there in the "inspired writings" of olde Ellen White.

You should realize by now that cults like Adventism have their own extra-biblical writings. What they have of the Bible is the forced interpretation by Ellen White.

To the Adventist, if olde Ellen said it, they have to believe it came from God!
---e.lee7537 on 3/23/13


Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation,
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.



---jerry6593 on 3/23/13




Someone "Teaching grandmother to suck eggs"?
---Nana on 3/22/13


Kathr, the question is whether you have been born of the Spirit or not. When someone comes out with so many reasons against the word of God as you do, the evidence is quit clear, there is no Truth in you. From the first time I corrected you to now, you have become worse, and not better. You do not even get milk, let along the meat of the Word. Every subject of Scripture you have destroyed with your answers. The Son not eternal. salvation without faith. No Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, the cross saves, believers are to be beheaded, and the list goes on. I cannot see your heart, for only God can, but I can see what comes out of it, very bad fruit that should be cut down. It's alway someone else's fault never your fault.
---Mark_V. on 3/22/13


Mark_V, so many of God's people hear terrifying stories of the "tribulation" to come and how bad it will be. The scriptures simply do not teach this.

Christ speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem stated:
Mt24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Note the "nor ever shall be."

Concerning the "rapture" this is not a biblical word.

Concerning the resurrection please read 1st Cor chapter 15 and 1st Thes chapter 4.
---trey on 3/22/13


kathr, I am not riding on anyone coat tails. I am a born again child of the living God. you have no idea what trials I have endured. I've had many tradegies in my life. I am stronger for it. I am also thankful for a Godly mom and dad who prayed for me and carried me to church. please don't sell me short. I am heaven bound and it is the result of my parents, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. you seem to pass judgement on many here when you don't know what you are talking about. you need to stop being ms perfect.
---shira4368 on 3/22/13


So Francis, are you saying the days were shortened or the 31/2 years were shortened ending in the death of Stephen? ..Because it was so hot, that if God hadn't shortened the days NO FLESH would have survived? Really, and it was so hot, that men hid in caves wanting mountains to fall on them and kill them....and this is recorded as having happened.......where?
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined... ,
Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him,

3 1/2 years by Jesus Himself until he was killed and all sacrifice ceased
3 1/2 years by His apostles until Stephen was stoned

Total of 7 years to Israel only. This was the last week of the 70 weeks. This is not about a 7 year tribulation at all
---francis on 3/22/13


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kathr, I way passed sucking a bottle...way way passed.
---shira4368 on 3/22/13


shira, i think it is wonderful that your father was a Godly saved man. But your growth and rewards are based solely on your own faith and obedience and not his.


Hell of full to the brim with preachers kids who thought they could ride into heaven on their parents coat-tails. Yes you shall come forth as Gold, but remember Job said that through suffering and as a result of suffering in the very midst of suffering.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


Romans 8:35-37
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

MarkV, this is what you are missing. Nay, rather markv is teh one DOING the slaughtering correct, just like his father Calvin.

Christians all over this world from Abel to today are being killed, they are not doing the KILLING.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


karthr, yes my daddy. He was my mentor and I learned a lot from him by example also. you are so full of yourself I don't see how the Spirit has room. you don't know one iota about my growth in Christ. when God gets finished with me I shall come forth as gold.
---shira4368 on 3/22/13


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shira, your dad being a minister has nothing to do with your personal growth IN CHRIST. That comes through suffering with Christ, not daddy. ****Philippians 3****

And how many years one is saved still has nothing to do with how mature one is in Christ. re-read teh first few verses of Hebrews 6.

Many saved for 65 years are still immature infants.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


Kathr, you speak religious as if the Spirit is working through you not others, all you are doing is bringing more heresy. You say,
"But that doesn't happen unless the first part of that verse is OBEYED. ...Being beheaded day in and day out can actually be where one is called to."
We are not called to be beheaded day in and day out.
The passage 2 Tim. 2:21 is an analogy. "vessels" is the greek word used to describe various tools, utensils, and furniture found in the home. In these great house is an analogy. Paul is contrasting two kinds of utensils. Second, those who obey God are the saved.
Before you talked about the Cross suggesting the Cross saves people. It's the grace of God that saves sinners.
---Mark_V. on 3/22/13


Kathryn Iwent back and read Ephesians because I thought I had missed something. It turns out I didn't miss anything. I don't know what part of the body of Christ you are but I am just a lowly finger ot toe. I do share the gospel do Christ in word, song and deed. Does that count?
---shira4368 on 3/21/13

If you know for positive that is what you are Shira, but just remember the function of a finger is not to point, and the purpose of the toe is not to keep stubbing it.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


Francis, The LORD stated one of the most important implications of the speeding up-- "those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:22). They will still be counted as days, but shorter days.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13
Please elaborate
Are we talking 12 hour days rather than 24 hour days
---francis on 3/22/13


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kathr, I have been saved for 60 years. I do know what growing in the grace of my Savior means. do you think everyone on christianet is a dumb as you pretend? my dad was a preacher and he taught us many things over the years. I surely don't need any lessons from you. thank you anyway.
---shira4368 on 3/22/13


Mark you say
//The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham//
So you say Abraham knew Christ was going to die for our sins and he would resurrect. But he hid this from the 12 that was with Him for 3 years, and after his ascension they still didn't know?
Do you think you have replaced Israel, or have you became part of the nation?
---michael_e on 3/22/13


kathr, I have never contradicted myself. I said we DON'T have to have a teacher. we who do is appreciative. If I lived in a country where you get a bible every now and then is what I was referring to.you sure aren't the one to say I am confrontational. just look at your own post. you can't even read whay my post was. I have people and teachers and yes MY PASTOR. I am blessed but some are not blessed. my bible says the Holy Spirit will teach you all things.
---shira4368 on 3/22/13


Shira, growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ is whats amazing. But I do believe much of that happens because of where our heart is...on the things of this world, or on Christ. Much has to do with our calling and God's purpose in our calling.

Do you know that verse in Timothy...it ends with: I will make you a vessel of Honor fit for the masters use. But that doesn't happen unless the first part of that verse is OBEYED. Then God works In you to will and to do of HIS Good pleasure. Being beheaded day in and day out can actually be where one is called to. It's being straightened by might in the inner man where the strength comes , With purpose ,**** Ephesians 3-13-21.**** is my hearts desire and has been for over 30 years.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


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Michael e, you answer with,
"I couldn't agree more, the key word being NOW." At the time that the writer wrote what he did, it was right after the Gentiles as a whole were included to the promise. It was not the norm for the Gentiles before that time, you have to remember Jesus broke that wall down on the Cross. Jews and Gentiles now make up the Church. Isaac was of the promise of God, he was born of God, Ishmauel was born of the flesh. And for centuries only Israel was in the promise, Paul says in Galatians 3:8,9) "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham"
---Mark_V. on 3/22/13


Francis, The LORD stated one of the most important implications of the speeding up-- "those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:22). They will still be counted as days, but shorter days.
---kathr4453 on 3/22/13


---shira4368 on 3/21/13
You say that we do not need others to help us to learn,and that you do not take anyone word as truth, then you list scholars, and your pastor as people who help

so as you can see the statements are contradictory, you do rely on your pastor and scholars to help you.


Why do you suppose God gave teachers to His church?
---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13

e.lee7537 tries to help you, but does not not help since he sites that we are given teachers by God


---kathr4453 on 3/21/13
If it is a 7 year tribulation, and for the elect's sake God cuts it short, how many actual years will it be?
---francis on 3/21/13


Should read 3 1/2 years..1260 days devided by 364/365 comes out approx 3 1/2 years.

SO there it is...for those who have never read the Bible

I've noticed Shira likes being contrary but ends up contradicting herself.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/13


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Francis//
this entire statement contradicts itself
---
No where in Scripture does it tells us all believers will understand all there is to know about Scripture and its teachings. Why do you suppose God gave teachers to His church?

Obviously Adventists do not believe God's Spirit is totally sufficient as they boast about olde Ellen White - their prophetess who when not copying the works of others, could only "peep and muter" Isaiah 8:19.

Apparently Adventists fail to recognize that during the time of Ellen White, there were many other women who had visions.
---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13


francis really???? please correct me and tell me your answer. I can't wait.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


kathr, I said art on purpose. I know God gives us gifts. I think yours is know-it-all. you just never cease to amaze me.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


francis and kathr, everyone in the world does not have access to a teacher, preacher. some countries take one bible and tear pages out so all can have a part of the bible. how do you think they learn. we are blessed to have a king james bible, a strongs concordance and a bible dictionary plus the internet. got to be careful with the internet but many third world countries have none of what we have. both of you get so technical that a sinner would be very confused around both of you.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


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It really depends on your view of the rapture since they are at the same time period as the tribulation.

There are 3 basic views of the rapture: 1 Pre-Tribulation. This means all current Christians will leave earth before the tribulation begins. 2. There are those that hold to mid-tribulation. Their view is since the first part of the tribulation is controlled by Satan, and Christian have always been persecuted by Satan, why should Christians escape this time. 3. There, are those that say Christians will go though the complete tribulation.

There are conservative theologians that support all views & use Scripture to support their views.
---wivv on 3/21/13


The pretribulation rapture theory is based on three things. First the Dispensational way of interpreting the Bible. Second the gap theory that says the Seventy weeks are not over we have just had 69 and the 70th is yet future. Third the Doctrine of Futurism that the final Antichrist is yet future.

I doubt everyone here knows all of these points. But without this tripod support most people would just believe what JESUS said.

Mat 24:30,31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/21/13


Kathryn Iwent back and read Ephesians because I thought I had missed something. It turns out I didn't miss anything. I don't know what part of the body of Christ you are but I am just a lowly finger ot toe. I do share the gospel do Christ in word, song and deed. Does that count?
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


Jesus then warned those in Judea (the region in which Jerusalem is located), at that time, to flee. Those who will heed the warning to escape (very possibly to the mountain-desert location of Petra, in western Jordan) will be protected for 1,260 days, which also is 42 months or 3 yearsthe second half of the 70th Week.

Satan will pursue the remnant of Israelis, who fled when they saw the setting up of the abomination of desolation. However, they will be protected by God for the next 1,260 days or 3 years (Revelation 12:6,14). It also is around that time that the "beast" or Antichrist will attain global power, setting himself up in the "holy place" and proclaiming himself to be "God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4).
---kathr4453 on 3/21/13


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it don't take a prophet to understand God's Word. all it takes is study and rightly divide in the spirit of truth. we don't need others to help us learn. of course, scholars do help us at times. with that being said, I don't take what anyone says as truth, I find out from God's Word. my pastor is skilled in the Hebrew and greek. He always gives scripture with everything he says.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13

this entire statement contridicts itself
---francis on 3/21/13


shira, have you ever read Ephesians 4? Guess what, God gave GIFTS to His Body each ministering in different aspects. I asked you once what your gift was and you said "ART". I knew then you had no clue how God has EQUIPPED His Body.

These Gifts were not done away with. These are SPIRITUAL GIFTS operating in the power of teh Holy Spirit until we come into the fillness of Jesus Christ not being tossed here and there by every wind of false doctrine that comes along.

Now anyone can pretend to have one of these gifts, however those who are members of His Body will know who has the real gifts and who does not. Why/How? Because WE have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to discern truth from lie.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/13


it don't take a prophet to understand God's Word. all it takes is study and rightly divide in the spirit of truth. we don't need others to help us learn. of course, scholars do help us at times. with that being said, I don't take what anyone says as truth, I find out from God's Word. my pastor is skilled in the Hebrew and greek. He always gives scripture with everything he says.
---shira4368 on 3/21/13


Of coarse you would MarkV, because you too are RCC, Never left the RCC and will always be RCC no matter who you say you hide behind.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/13


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Mark you say
//According to the New Testament believing Jews and believing Gentiles are now one//
I couldn't agree more, the key word being NOW.
When the ascended Christ revealed the BoC to our apostle Paul, He made it plain, there is now no difference in Jew and Gentile. That separates the earthly people, Israel as a nation (GEN 13:16 "And I wil l make thy seed (off spring) as the dust OF THE EARTH:...")
From the BoC (GEN 15:5. "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look NOW TOWARD HEAVEN, and (count) tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be)

Earthly people, the nation of Israel. Primarily Jews
Heavenly people, the BoC, made up of all nations
---michael_e on 3/21/13


Nikki, I agree with your answers. Kathr states,
"The first 3 1/2 Israe will make a covenant with this anti_christ, called thecovenent of HELL, then after 3 1/2 years the anti-christ will turn on Israel.----kathr4453 on 3/19/13"
I bet that she cannot find one passage that states 3 1/2 years anywhere in the Bible, or a covenant of hell, or that the anti-christ will turn on Israel in those 3 1/2 years. It is all a lot of talk again, just like when she talks of the Cross saving those dead in sin. If she looked for "seven years" of tribulation in any concordance, she won't find it. The truth is, from Genesis to Revelation, there is no exact passage that specifically mentions a seven-year period of tribulation.
---Mark_V. on 3/21/13


I know, the topic was Israel, and I know the RCC see Revelation differently than your Protestant churches.

Those who have the Gift of Prophesy in the New Testament Nikki, are not Prophets, but those God GIFTED to re iterate that which has already been spoken, and to keep us grounded in the truth and remembrance of all scripture and to "rightly divide "the Word of Truth.........

No one quoting OT scripture is a false prophet. And no one who rightly divides OT Prophecy is a false teacher.

Not every OT Promise TO ISRAEL has been fulfilled, and God did not annul those Promises to Israel no matter what. Those UNCONDITIONAL promises are based on the Sovereignty of God and HIS PURPOSE, not man's efforts.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/13


Kathr4453,
1. I never claim it was Prophecy. Prophecy comes a Prophet. Many FALSE prophets in the OT and now.

2. I never claim to be a teacher of the Bible.

3. I speak to you from myself, not the RCC. It is always you who reach past me to take a CHEAP shot at the RCC at every chance or made up chance. So, I don't assume anything.

The topic was Israel not the RCC.

The first 3 1/2 Israe will make a covenant with this anti_christ, called thecovenent of HELL, then after 3 1/2 years the anti-christ will turn on Israel.----kathr4453 on 3/19/13

Peace
---Nikki on 3/20/13


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Nikki, I know you do read and understand the Bible differently. Actually no, not con artists. Just those who understand prophecy as Scripture teaches, and those God called to teach it. That just may not be your gift.

You need to be careful Nikki not to assume those who disagree with the RCC and her teachings are cults.

Many feel the RCC itsels is a cult.

Anyway Prophecy is not really taught, it's REVEALED to us by the Holy Spirit.








---kathr4453 on 3/20/13


Nikki, It matters not to me that you don't know or have never heard those who are gifted in that area of scripture. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not truth.---kathr4453 on 3/19/13

Gifted or con artist? Many are good with words and can draw you into their thinking. It sounds like a cult. Truly, please be careful.

As for me, I have been blessed with many scripture scholars from Jewish, Eastern and Latin.
We read and understand the Bible differently.
---Nikki on 3/20/13


Michael e, the passages in Genesis is talking about descendants of Abraham been many. Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Issac. Yet, one of them inherited the covenant blessing, and the other didn't. Ishmael was a stranger to the covenant promise. (Gal. 4:22,23). Yet, almost all of those people died in their sins. After death there is no second chances.
According to the New Testament believing Jews and believing Gentiles are now one. The two combined are "Abraham seed" (Gal. 3:29). This is the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:15,16). The mystery spoken of in (Eph. 3:4-6). The mystery has been accomplished by our Messiah death. He did it. When He died He demolished the wall. You are building the wall back up with your answers.
---Mark_V. on 3/20/13


Nikki, that's not my opinion, but the opinion of a majority of those who teach prophecy. It matters not to me that you don't know or have never heard those who are gifted in that area of scripture.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not truth.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


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For those who don't read the Bible, here are the verses re covenant Israel makes with anti_christ and how God feels about it. Some people should learn how to ask nicely rather than accuse of lying and then find an ecuse NOT to apologize.
Isaiah 28:15,18--kathr4453 on 3/19/13

The first 3 1/2 Israe will make a covenant with this anti_christ, called thecovenent of HELL, then after 3 1/2 years the anti-christ will turn on Israel.----kathr4453 on 3/19/13

Those scriptures does not support these strange statements you claim. No matter how much you wish they did.
---Nikki on 3/19/13


Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him,

3 1/2 years by Jesus Himself until he was killed and all sacrifice ceased
3 1/2 years by His apostles until Stephen was stoned

Total of 70 years to Israel only.
This was the last week of the 70 weeks
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
---francis on 3/19/13


ON 2/15/2000, POPE JOHN PAUL II SIGNED A COVENANT WITH PALESTINIAN ARAFAT CALLING FOR INTERNATIONALIZATION OF JERUSALEM ! THE PLAN OF THE HOUSE OF THEOSOPHY IS ON TRACK [NEWS1052]

A Plan to produce Antichrist envisions a Jerusalem internationalized so all of the Monotheistic faiths can worship in peace. This covenant confirms the plan.

The New World Order is coming! Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing daily.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


For those who don't read the Bible, here are the verses re covenant Israel makes with anti_christ and how God feels about it. Some people should learn how to ask nicely rather than accuse of lying and then find an ecuse NOT to apologize.


Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


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The first 3 1/2 Israe will make a covenant with this anti_christ, called thecovenent of HELL, then after 3 1/2 years the anti-christ will turn on Israel. ---kathr4453 on 3/19/13

Please give Scripture to your statement claiming Israel will make a convenant and it is called Hell.
You just made that up. It isn't in the Bible (Your Bible or mine)
---Nikki on 3/19/13


Mark, I'll repeat
GEN 13:16 "And I wil l make thy seed (off spring) as the dust OF THE EARTH:..."
whats dust? earthly. His earthly people would be as the numbers of the sand of the sea. Nation of Israel.
GEN 15:5. "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look NOW TOWARD HEAVEN, and (count) tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be."
God promised Abraham 2 groups of people connected to him. The dust of the earth, his earthly offspring by, Isaac and Jacob. When God tells him to look toward the heavens, He's talking about a heavenly connection.
Two concepts in Scripture, Earthly people Israel and heavenly people, the Church, the Body of Christ.
---michael_e on 3/19/13


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


This too supports the scripture that the beast, anti_christ is not revealed until the second 3 1/2 years.

The first 3 1/2 Israe will make a covenant with this anti_christ, called thecovenent of HELL, then after 3 1/2 years the anti-christ will turn on Israel.

And they sang the song of MOSES. This is Israel, those who overcame the beast.

WE however are "overcomers" NOW, not later when going through the Great Tribulation. And we certainly don't sing the song of Moses.

---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


There is one explanation, Revelation 10:7 says " THE "MYSTERY OF GOD "IS COMPLETE". We also see this term, MYSTERY OF GOD in Colossians 1 referring to the Church. And we know the CHURCH is that Mystery hidden, now revealed. .

Then in Rev 11' the LAST TRUMP sounds, the 7th trump. We too see in Paul writing the LAST TRUMP where we shall meet Him in the Clouds.

I see the WRATH, the BOWLS beginning the 2nd half (31/2years)...and the beginning of Judgement the first 31/2. Peter states, that Judgement begins with the House of The Lord.

Some ,like Jude says will be snatched out of the fire..

It "could be "mid-trib.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


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Michael e, in the other blog you mentioned two churches going to heaven. One at the raptured and another after. And two kinds of saints. That the old Testament saints were not going into heaven.
As I understand this, believers, who are saints, baptized into One spiritual body in Christ, which makes up the spiritual Church, if the Church is taken up, how can the Church remain after the others are taken up? Can you give Scripture to support your views?
---Mark_V. on 3/19/13


Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ,

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/13


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

When JESUS comes the Antichrist is in charge.
---Samuelbb7 on 3/18/13


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,..and there shall be a time of trouble,.. and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is only because the saints are going through the tribulation, and need to be delivered that Michael stands up, and the days of the tribulation are shortened
---francis on 3/18/13


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Again Leej, you copied and pasted right from the Internet. Anyone could have done that.

But what does "your conviction "tell you, after studying to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of truth.

Seeing Matthew 24-25, Zechariah 12-14, and Revelation Tribulation are all talking about the exact time, when then did the moon turn to blood, and God had to shorten the days?

When was that DAY that was neither night or day when Jesus sat upon His throne in Jerusalem, REBUILDING?

When did Isaiah 14 ever come to pass? There was a day when the WHOLE EARTH WAS AT REST? WHEN.

You see, the Internet is not where to find those answers, the WORD OF GOD IS.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


Yes, those who hold that Nero was in fact the anti_Christ in 70 AD bringing destruction to Jerusalem, fail to see that the anti_christ in scripture never commits suicide.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


When was Revelation written?

Those who hold to the 'late date,' have Revelation written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96).This date is determined by a statement made by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325

Those that hold the early date refer to the internal evidence itself, that Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, specially Rev. 11:1-2

Of course there are always those that dispute the inspiration of the Bible claiming that the writer could not possibly knew of events that had not yet occurred. Such is the case also with the book of Daniel.
---e.lee7537 on 3/18/13


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,..and there shall be a time of trouble,.. and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Why is michael standing up for them, to deliver them, during the time of trouble if they are raptured?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
..but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Why would the days need to be cut short if the church is raptured?

keep in mind that the NT referrs to the church as the elect: Colossians 3:12 2 Timothy 2:10 1 Peter 1:2 2 John 1:13
---francis on 3/18/13


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70AD??? Hardly trey, there was an even greated distruction in 135AD worse than 70AD. John wrote Revelation WAY AFTER 70AD. There has always been tribulation, as Paul tells us in Thesselonians it is a SIGN ONE IS SAVED. But the TRIBULATION such as has never been seen is far worse than Noah's Flood....the whole world or 2/3 will be destroyed by FIRE. Not Just Jerusalem.

So you believe in 70AD, Jesus came and reigned on earth 1000 years? Then what? Are we all in hell now?
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


MATTHEW 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , no nor ever shall be.

This is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
---trey on 3/18/13


many believe the saints of the tribulation are jews and many think it is those who are saved during the tribulation. God's church will not go thru tribulation, even if they are jews.
---shira4368 on 3/18/13


MATTHEW 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , no nor ever shall be.

MATTHEW 24:22 - And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved , but for the elect sake those days shall be shortened.

REVELATION 7:14 - AND I said unto him, Sir thou knowest, And he said to me , These are they which came out of the Great tribulation, and have wash ed their robes ,and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
---RICHARDC on 3/17/13


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Yes, Yes, the Saints, that is the Church will escape the WRATH OF GOD. That's why scripture tells us we are saved from the WRATH TO COME.

The Great tribulation is the WRATH OF GOD upon all the ungodly, those who have taken the mark of the beast.

Christians go through tribulation from the moment they are saved, but that tribulation is NOT the Wrath of God.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/13


No, no one is escaping the period of tribulation.
I think Revelation 7:3 proves holy men or saints as some calls them. will be on earth during tribulation.

"Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
---Nikki on 3/17/13


Don't think that just because I'm not a dispensationalist or don't believe that the present state of Israel has anything to do with the true Israel of God that I don't believe in the imminent personal return of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ!

But one thing I've learned, especially lately, is that God never does quite what you think He's going to do.

Remember that God didn't fulfill the scriptures of the Messiah's first coming the way the Bible scholars of 2000 years ago said would happen--and they rejected Him.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/17/13


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