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Can We Obey The Law Perfectly

While Jesus obeyed the law perfectly, can we as humans stained with sin, capable of doing the same? Romans 7:19

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 ---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13
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---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13
Hebrews 4:4 And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

It is 100% true, Those of is who believe do enter the rest the VERY SAME WAY in which God did

Not on the first day Sunday
Not in Jesus Christ the Sabbath

But exactly as God id from his
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day:

That is exactly how we who believe do it.

Those who are are not yet converted, struggle with it, they try a variety of things, Sunday, every day, any day but we do it as God id from his
---francis on 4/5/13


micha: "How many times must the Lord say "children of Israel" before it sinks in?"

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are YOU Abraham's seed?



---jerry6593 on 4/5/13


-and now the whole verse:
Exd 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.
-Oh..the children of Israel so it says?
Exd 31:14-17 ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death ... Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath ... It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:
-How many times must the Lord say "children of Israel" before it sinks in?
---micha9344 on 4/4/13


francis //The sabbath is not the Gospel, but there is very strong link between the sabbath,and the gospel.

the LINK between the Creation rest of God is to those who have entered that rest of God as typified by the Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, As I swore in my wrath, They (Israel who observed the Sabbath commandment) shall not enter my rest, although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

And we can all too easily see that either event was a one time event and there was NO command given to believers to observe the Old Covenant Sabbath.

Sorry, but you really need to be enlightened on this issue. Suggest you find a church that truly teaches the Bible.
---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13


\.. those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lords Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death ..\-Ignatius (30-107AD)
\.. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits ..\-Justin Martyr (110-165AD)
\.. in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.\-Tertullian (160-225AD)
---micha9344 on 4/4/13




Francis //meanwhile check this out:

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

why do you suppose they did not come NEXT DAY?

---
I already have addressed this issue several times already but you apparently have a mental blockage when it comes to the truth that the early church was build around the Jewish synagogues but by the beginning of the 2d century, the home church was the model and they met on Sundays. Even SDA church historians can tell you that, so why do you persist in resisting the truth?

NONE of the early church leadership taught Sabbath observance and many were direct successors of the Apostles - something you cannot dispute.
---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13


Haz27//So this confirms my point that SDAs do NOT KEEP the law.

I am beginning to wonder if Adventism teaches that if one has communal worship on Saturday, that the rest of the law is of lesser importance.

Even olde Ellen taught that the Sabbath commandment was the most important of all the commandments. Sabbath keeping to her was the mark of a true Christian.

And like the Sabbath keeping and law promoting Pharisees did with Jesus, Adventists use the Sabbath as a measure of one spirituality.
---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13


Jerry6593 said //when we sin (and we will)//

So this confirms my point that SDAs do NOT KEEP the law.
Yet SDAs preach that we must keep the law or else we're lost. Remember, Francis even said "No, No, No" to the salvation of those who do not KEEP the law.

What's the difference between the way that you fail to keep the law and the way a Christian of another denomination fails?

And you say that we repent of these failings to receive forgiveness. What happens if someone forgets to repent?

As repent means regret and stop doing that offense you repented of, how often can someone repent of the same offense? Have you repented of the same offense more than once?
---Haz27 on 4/4/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13
The sabbath is not the Gospel, but there is very strong link between the sabbath,and the gospel

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself,

The link is JESUS: the CREATOR of Heaven and earth is six days, who is also our REDEEMER

Exodus 31:13 Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
---francis on 4/4/13


Samuelbb7 - the issue that was discussed in Mark 2:27-28 and Matthew 12:12 was really HOW the Sabbath was to be observed by those that were under the Old Covenant law.

It is necessary to distinguish what transpired with Jesus under the Old Covenant and that of the New.

//The problem is that many remove the Gospels from the New Testament.

I realize that with Sabbaterians especially Adventists that the Sabbath is the Gospel, but to Christians it is the wonderful news of Jesus, His death & resurrection for the salvation of those who would believe.

---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13




Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

The problem is that many remove the Gospels from the New Testament.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/13


Can you point to at least one NT scripture that even hints that breaking the Sabbath is a sin.
---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13

Can you show me Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,

OR

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.


meanwhile check this out:
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

why do you suppose they did not come NEXT DAY?
---francis on 4/4/13


Jerry //I have explained to you in depth the Bible teaching that sin is to be avoided (Ten Commandments kept), ...

You are still confused as to what sin really is, as you limit sin to a violation of the 10 commandments.

James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
You should realize that you sin if you show partiality.

And as you strive to obey all the law all the time, at the end of the day you are still viewed as a law-breaker.

Can you point to at least one NT scripture that even hints that breaking the Sabbath is a sin. Obviously the early first century non-Jewish church did not consider breaking the Sabbath a sin.

---e.lee7537 on 4/4/13


Hazzard: "Whenever SDA's are questioned about their failure to KEEP the law (which means PERFECT obedience, James 2:10) they always go silent."

Now Haz, you know that's not true. I've been anything but silent. I have explained to you in depth the Bible teaching that sin is to be avoided (Ten Commandments kept), but that when we sin (and we will), we fall at Jesus' feet, repent, and receive forgiveness for past sins. You and Lee, on the other hand, act as if sin is no big deal to God, and that He was just kidding when He wrote those Commandments in stone. Like Satan, you assert that you are of such an exhalted character that you don't need no stinkin' laws.




---jerry6593 on 4/4/13


We must be careful of what we preach. We face stricter judgement if we mislead others into error, James 3:1

This stricter judgement applies to Ellen White for her lukewarm gospel of grace mixed with works of the law.

James 3:8-11 addresses this.
"the tongue can no man tame, ....Therewith bless (love) we God, even the Father, and therewith curse (judge/condemn through the law) we men,.....
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judge/condemn through the law). My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"

To all SDAs, for your own sakes don't preach Ellen's mix of sweet water (grace) and bitter (works).
---Haz27 on 4/4/13


//Hi all, I am a newbe here. God bless you all, in the name of Jesus Christ
---Chuck6435 on 4/3/13//

Welcome and Blessings brother

Shalom
---char on 4/3/13


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Haz27//Yet SDA's are always proclaiming we are to keep the law or else.

perhaps they would like to confess that if one keeps the Jewish Sabbath, that alone would be sufficient as the rest of the commandments are really not that important.

In fact, olde Ellen herself felt that the MOST IMPORTANT command in the whole Bible was the observance of the Sabbath.

Christians, on the other hand. hold the scripture view that love of neighbor really is the most important (1 Cor. 13), and fulfills the law (Romans 13:9-10). Is it not too bad they disagree but that is what happens when they follow a sickhead old woman instead of God's Word.
---e.lee7537 on 4/3/13


//What a scholar! The context of Mat 5 is clearly the Ten Commandments and not the ordinances you claim.

Jerry silly boy why do you limit God's commands to the Decalogue? Are they more important that what else God has commanded?

You can keep the moral commandments, but the law without Christ is dead works - works that will not benefit you in the life and judgment to come.

At the end of the day, you will still be found to be a lawbreaker as Haz27 had tried hard to explain to you. You need to heed good counsel, not that of old woman that could only peep and mutter when she was not copying down the works of other authors. Isaiah 8:19
---e.lee7537 on 4/3/13


Hi Chuck,
Welcome.
There is quite the mix of ideas here.
This site can strengthen your faith and help you always to give an answer for the reason of the hope that is within you.
It is sometimes hard to tell the sheep from the wolves, so please be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
After a while you will know us individually by our fruits.
May you grow in Christ while you're with us and not get discouraged by the beliefs that are contrary to Christ.
---micha9344 on 4/3/13


Hi all, I am a newbe here. God bless you all, in the name of Jesus Christ
---Chuck6435 on 4/3/13


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Samuelbb7 and jerry6593. Whenever SDA's are questioned about their failure to KEEP the law (which means PERFECT obedience, James 2:10) they always go silent.
Yet SDA's are always proclaiming we are to keep the law or else.

Can you not see how your failure to keep the law only invalidates your argument we keep it?

And your constant avoidance of any discussion about your failure to keep the law, only further confirms the error you follow?

Maybe you both have emotional ties to the SDA identity and hence would rather avoid the truth than to let go of an institution you have committed so much to.
But we all know that doing this is just opposing yourself.

It's better you repent and believe in Jesus, instead.
---Haz27 on 4/3/13


Leeast: "And of those commandments that Jesus was referring to was physical circumcision, the dietary laws"

What a scholar! The context of Mat 5 is clearly the Ten Commandments and not the ordinances you claim.

Mat 5:21 ... Thou shalt not kill,

Mat 5:27 ... Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:33 ... Thou shalt not forswear thyself,

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LEAST in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Circumcision and diet are not mentioned. Go back to hate school, you're getting sloppy.

---jerry6593 on 4/3/13


Bro. Elee, no one can keep the whole law perfect as Christ did. All come short of the glory of God. If they were capable of keeping the whole law perfectly they would not need Christ. And everyone needs Christ. There is no other door into heaven, not even the Israel of yesteryear, or the Israel of today, they also need Christ no matter what Kathr states.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/13


//You just make stuff up that fits your beliefs, what do you think about the bible?

Quite the contrary I am very careful on what I base any of my beliefs.

//What do you think about God, does he ever change his laws?

Ever hear of the Jerusalem council Acts 15 where God decided believers need not become circumcised?

And have you ever read Hebrews 7:12 where there was a change in the priesthood from what God had commanded of the Levitical priests?

//Does God base his laws or ethnic groups or are his laws for all men?

Those law we view as moral laws which were inherent in man created in Gods image will never change.

You really know little of the Bible or its doctrines.
---e.lee7537 on 4/2/13


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Francis said //Does God base his laws or ethnic groups or are his laws for all men?//

The nation of Israel under the law, was AN EXAMPLE to the world. And it showed how all were guilty, Rom 3:19.

The law was a tutor to bring mankind to Christ, that we might be justified by faith, Gal 3:24.

And now that faith has come the tutor/the law has ended.
Christ is the END of the law, Rom 10:4

And where there is no law there is no transgression/Sin, Rom 4:15.

Satan, the accuser, can not lay any thing (not even sin/unrighteousness) to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33.

Yet, the SDA's, in disobedience to God, continue to judge by works of the law, charging people with unrighteousness/sin.
---Haz27 on 4/2/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/2/13
You just make stuff up that fits your beliefs, what do you think about the bible?

What do yuthink about God, does he ever change his laws?

Does God base his laws or ethnic groups or are his laws for all men?
---francis on 4/2/13


Jerry 6593, note Mat 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break ONE of these least commandments...'

Jerry, have you broken even just ONE commandment?
If you offended in even just ONE point your guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10.
And thus the whole world becomes guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

Praise God He loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in him shall have everlasting life. Now our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5.

Jerry, God loves you and calls on you to repent and purge out the old leaven/SDA doctrine of works of the law.

Believe in Jesus instead.
---Haz27 on 4/2/13


Jerry boy//Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---
And of those commandments that Jesus was referring to was physical circumcision, the dietary laws, as well as the observance of the various Sabbaths and festivals.

However NOT all of God's commands given ONLY ONLY ONLY to the nation of Israel is applicable to the Christian. And that is where you are in the wrong.

//Do you believe this or do you believe that Jesus is a liar?

2 Cor. 5:21
---e.lee7537 on 4/2/13


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Hazzard & Leeast: They are talking about you in heaven:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Do you believe this or do you believe that Jesus is a liar?



---jerry6593 on 4/2/13


Samuelbb7 //Judgement belongs to GOD alone. He is the only one who knows the heart. I just point out that is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, worship other gods, take God's name in vain, bow down to idols which are all part of the Ten Commandments.
---
While we are to strive to be holy in all our conduct, observing the 10 commandments or being totally correct in moral behavior will not benefit us as to our salvation which is in Christ, not in the law.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


And that is our main disagreement, our soteriology.
---e.lee7537 on 4/1/13


jerry6593. Jesus said in Matt 16:12 to beware the LEAVEN, that means DOCTRINE OF WORKS OF THE LAW.
Gal 5:9 warns us that just a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
We have to purge out the old leaven, 1Cor 5:9.
BUT SDA's disobey God and embrace the old leaven instead.

Scripture is spiritually discerned 1Cor 2:14.
BUT SDA's read them as a natural man would.

The law is allegorically described as Hagar, Gal 4:24.
And 1Cor 5 is speaking of spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law.
So we see that SDA doctrine is fornication.
And God warns us to abstain from fornication. It defiles the temple of the Holy Spirit.
---Haz27 on 4/1/13


Samuelbb7. You asked where have you said we must keep the law perfectly?

To KEEP the law means PERFECT obedience, James 2:10.

If this is not what SDA's mean then they should stop quoting scriptures (they don't understand) saying we are to KEEP the law.

Now Francis has said "No, No, No" to salvation for anyone who does not KEEP the law.
Do you agree with him?

Can you explain, with scripture, what level of obedience to the law is acceptable proof for God, of "imparted" righteousness?

And as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5, why then do you doubt God on this unless you see proof in obedience to the law?
---Haz27 on 4/1/13


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"If he did he would not be honking the 10 commandments as the Bible warn us of the law teachers?

Luke 20:46a (NIV) "Beware of the teachers of the law."
---e.lee7537 on 4/1/13

Good thing you state as a question, as a statement is false. Christ taught against the pompous and the two faced who said to do and did not themselves.
Matthew 23:1_3: "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Can you find the "commandment of God" in Matthew 15:1_9? Prefer the word of Paul?, see Ephesians 6:2.
---Nana on 4/1/13


If man could keep the law there would have been no need for Christ to come to this low ground of sin and suffering and die on the cruel cross!
---trey on 4/1/13


Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Jos 6:2a,5b And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho ... and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
Jos 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that [was] in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Jos 2:3 And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they [were]:
---micha9344 on 4/1/13


//We preach the truth of the Bible, and you have to "beware" of us. And then you make the irrational comparison of obedience to God's Law to fornication. What depravity!

Poor Jerry little boy simply has yet to understand what the Bible teaches.

If he did he would not be honking the 10 commandments as the Bible warn us of the law teachers?

Luke 20:46a (NIV) "Beware of the teachers of the law.
---e.lee7537 on 4/1/13


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Intersesting. Where have I been saying that anyone keeps the law perfectly? Where have I been judgemental of others?

Judgement belongs to GOD alone. He is the only one who knows the heart. I just point out that is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, worship other gods, take God's name in vain, bow down to idols which are all part of the Ten Commandments.

Are you saying it is okay to do these things? Or should we call on all who sin to repent and follow GOD. Read first John.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/1/13


Hazzard & Leeast: "Beware the leaven of the SDA's"

You poor babies. We preach the truth of the Bible, and you have to "beware" of us. And then you make the irrational comparison of obedience to God's Law to fornication. What depravity!



---jerry6593 on 4/1/13


e.lee7537 said,//I spent far too many years studying the Bible and its doctrine to be able to fellowship with those that preach that one is not under grace but yet so under the law.//

True.
And God warns believers not to fellowship with those fornicating with Hagar/the law.

1Cor 5:9 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators"
1Cor 5:13 "Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Jesus warned the disciples about the leaven/doctrine of works (Matt 16:12) and likewise Gal 5:9 warns us "A little leaven leavens the whole lump".

Beware the leaven of the SDA's
---Haz27 on 3/31/13


francis //Speaking on behalf of myself and taking liberty to speak for Jerry, we invite you to come and spend several sabbaths with us, observe our sabbath keeping, and then make judgment

---

I spent far too many years studying the Bible and its doctrine to be able to fellowship with those that preach that one is not under grace but yet so under the law.

1Co 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
---e.lee7537 on 3/31/13


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e.lee7537 said about SDA's //They want to think that just because they go to church on Saturdays, and honk their horns on the Sabbath, that they are observing the Sabbath.//

That's true.
Francis, Jerry, Samuelbb7 all FAIL to KEEP the law/10C. They even admit it.
Yet they condemn anyone who does not KEEP the law.

Francis even says "No, No, No" to another's salvation, based on works of the law, whilst avoiding any discussion on his own FAILURE to KEEP the law/10C.

"A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump", Gal 5:9.

The SDA's are truly leavened, just like the Pharisees.

But Christians have purged out the old leaven as God intended, 1Cor 5:7
---Haz27 on 3/30/13


--e.lee7537 on 3/29/13

Speaking on behalf of myself and taking liberty to speak for Jerry, we invite you to come and spend several sabbaths with us, observe our sabbath keeping, and then make judgment
---francis on 3/30/13


And we can all believe the truth that Francis, and Jerry break the Jewish Sabbath every Saturday whether they realize it or not.

They want to think that just because they go to church on Saturdays, and honk their horns on the Sabbath, that they are observing the Sabbath.
---e.lee7537 on 3/29/13


francis, I know God's power can keep us from sin but still our flesh sins and so does yours. we must stay in prayer and away from things that show our weaknesses.
---shira4368 on 3/28/13
good post, keep it up
---francis on 3/29/13


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francis, I know God's power can keep us from sin but still our flesh sins and so does yours. we must stay in prayer and away from things that show our weaknesses.
---shira4368 on 3/28/13


e.lee7537 on 3/27/13
man you sure built and burnt that straw man fast
---francis on 3/28/13


//many seem to believe in God, but yet deny the power of God to keep us from falling into sin.

Francis admitted that he does sin, so where is the power of God in his life?

Stupid is as stupid does.

Even the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 7:19 that he does sin.

And then in Php. 3:12

"Not that I have already obtained this or AM ALREADY PERFECT, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own."

Apparently Francis does not know either himself or what the Scriptures teach.

"We Adventist are not like others as we are the only ones that obey all the commandments of God."

Christ called such blind fools that lead the blind.
---e.lee7537 on 3/27/13


Satan is able to tempt us to sin.

Christ is able to keep us from falling.

Question: Who is more powerful - Christ or Satan?



---jerry6593 on 3/28/13


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I believe the Bible teaches that God provides a way of escape and that He allows as much temptation as we can handle, but He does not make the decision for me.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/27/13
Amen

He strengthens us to obey him always. This is what is generally missing from the post of many. the power of God to keep us from sin always

many seem to believe in God, but yet deny the power of God to keep us from falling into sin


God gave us a free will to serve him or not to serve him.
---shira4368 on 3/26/13
God also gives to us his Spirit to enable us to Obey to strengthen us in every moment of weakness

His Spirits writes his Laws on our hearts 2 Corinthians 3:3
---francis on 3/27/13


Are you saying that you do not believe in the power of God to keep us from sin?
---francis on 3/26/13

Not at all.

BTW, the verb "keep" in 2 Thes 2:3 and Jude 1:24 means to guard, to watch, to observe. If we use that in understanding the verse, it means a whole different thing. We understand it to say God will guard you from evil rather than take you away from evil. The latter seems mysterious, that God will move my hand away from a temptation while I am reaching for as opposed to God standing between me and the temptation.

I believe the Bible teaches that God provides a way of escape and that He allows as much temptation as we can handle, but He does not make the decision for me.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/27/13


francis, you just don't get it. God gave us a free will to serve him or not to serve him. christians always battle forces unseen. it is a constant battle. we must pray pray everyday. we must keep our eyes and heart clean. it does not come automatically just because we are saved.
---shira4368 on 3/26/13


Mark_Eaton on 3/26/13

Are you saying that you do not believe in the power of God to keep us from sin?

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil.
2 Thessalonians 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
---francis on 3/26/13


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Francis does not,I guess, and I will not blame him for it
---Peter on 3/24/13
I am not sure what you are talking about here. So please correct me if I am wrong

I think you are talking about temptation, rather than sin.

My answer then would be this:
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
---francis on 3/26/13


I do not believe it is possible. Our Lord set the bar even higher than the law by examining our thoughts.

Our SDA friends who prize James 2:24 often miss these other verses:

James 3:2 "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body"

James 4:17 "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin"
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/13


perhaps Francis believes he can control his mind, but when the flesh has its lust, the mind often follows suit.
---e.lee7537 on 3/24/13
well, let see what francis has said and maintained:
Romans 8:10 if Christ be in you,
Galatians 2:20 Christ liveth in me:
2 Peter 1:4 be partakers of the divine nature
Ephesians 3:16 be strengthened with might by CHRIST'S Spirit in the inner man,
Ephesians 3:17 Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith,
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
2 Corinthians 13:5 Jesus Christ is in you,
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
---francis on 3/13/13
---francis on 3/26/13


e.lee7537: I understand. The real question, which I cannot and will not try to answer, is whether God blames us for the lusts of the flesh, when they are ONLY of the flesh.

I assume it is best to confess them when I recognise them, but I am not sure that they are classed as sins.

Francis does not,I guess, and I will not blame him for it
---Peter on 3/24/13


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Peter//This is why I feel you and Francis disagree
---
Yes, perhaps Francis believes he can control his mind, but when the flesh has its lust, the mind often follows suit.

I have seen far too many sailors out on deployment for months and when they hit port, they all too often do what sailors too often do.

Once had a roommate that swore after coming back off leave that he would never again do what he did, but on the next payday, the gals were waiting for him and he always found himself obligating them.

There is a temptation that one may submit to if God would allow it.1 Cor. 10:13
---e.lee7537 on 3/24/13


Scott,

1. "gnashing of Marc and Warwick's teeth": Unless you're saying Warwick and I share dentures, it should be 'Marc's and Warwick's teeth'.
2. "I've been told by many": Many? How many? One thousand? A million? Who cares?! That's individual ministers laying down some advice. The Watchtower, on the other hand, has it as a rule, hence the order to "wisely destroy" material that differs from God's ONLY earthly organisation's party line.
3. I'm still waiting an answer to how the creation was created THROUGH Michael the angel (aka Jesus), and yet it wasn't because if it were he'd be the creator and thus you'd have TWO creators. A little JW semantic sleight-of-hand and a pinch of deafening silence?
---Marc on 3/23/13


Scott : "Jesus in prayer: "Father, the hour has come...that they know you, the only true God..." John 17:1,3"

So, since the Watchtower believes Jesus is a god, he isn't a true god but a false one? Or is the polytheism of JWs special pleading here?

And in Exodus 24 when Moses et al "SAW the God of Israel" (Note the non-inclusion of the dishonest tampering of God's Word by the NWT when they add the words "the true image of") and then "YHWH said to Moses", did Moses et al see YHWH or another god or Jesus, who, by the unadultered translation, would posit Jesus as YHWH from this passage as no one can see the Father?
---Marc on 3/23/13


e-lee: While we are not able to abide fully in the law Rom 7:25 shows the split mind/flesh, and I take it that Francis considers that as long as his mind (which is the part of himself he can control) he is obeying the law.

I understand that view, for there are a number of passages in the NT implying that we are not to sin - and other passages implying that other brothers may sin against us

This split leaves me thinking that this is not so simple, and that while we desire to obey the law, in one way or another, somehow we will do something wrong - even as we desire to obey God.

This is why I feel you and Francis disagree
---Peter on 3/23/13


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Francis - I do not believe that 2 Peter 1:3-4 tells us that we can bypass the process we call sanctification. Spiritual growth takes time - little for some of us, but for many it is really a lifetime of struggle against sin in our lives.

Let's face the facts, Francis, you yourself do NOT keep the law perfectly, and there is really no reason to believe you ever will be able to.

If we consider the FACT that Paul complained of His inability to obey the law fully (Romans 7:19), there is no reason to believe you can be successful.

Perhaps you have been deceived by what is being preached from your pulpit.
---e.lee7537 on 3/23/13


YES WE CAN we have THE POWER OF GOD
2 Peter 1:3-4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

1 John 3:7 Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.
---francis on 3/23/13


Adam. How do people become holy? We BELIEVE in Jesus and thus are holy in him.
Rom 11:16 If the firstfruits (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy then the lump (believers) IS ALSO holy.

Francis. You misunderstand 2Ti 3:5.
Having a "form of godliness" refers to those who falsely profess to be believers.
And they "deny the power thereof" refers to their unbelief in Jesus as seen by their works of the law for righteousness.

Godliness refers to Christ in us, 1Tim 3:16, 1Tim 4:8.
The gospel of Christ is the power of God, Rom 1:16.

BUT, the SDA doctrine of works is having a form of godliness but denies the power thereof.
---Haz27 on 3/23/13


YES WE CAN we have THE POWER OF GOD




Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man,
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,



too many people:
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
---francis on 3/23/13


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Adam //be holy for i am holy, God would not say for us to do this if it weren't possible. faith without deeds is dead while we don't do deeds for salvation we do them from salvation. read James 2v24 God bless
--
And just how do we become holy? Certainly not by obeying the law as what we would conceive of it with our very limited intelligence.

Holiness is achieved by abiding in Jesus via God's Holy Spirit. For it only then that we can be fruitful.

It is the ministry of the Spirit that enables us to please God, not via that ministry of death & condemnation craved on letters of stone. Read 1 Cor. 3:7-10
---e.lee7537 on 3/23/13


Tell us Francis, if you can truly obtain perfection by obeying the law, how do you then know that you have reached that goal?

Would you be able to walk on the water during summer time?

Do you think God will tell you when you have reached perfection?

Just maybe there was some law that you were unaware of that would have make you less than perfect.

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified (declared righteous) before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.

The verse does NOT say that the righteous live by the law.
---e.lee7537 on 3/23/13


Francis//YES WE CAN//

Fact is, NO YOU DON'T, as previous discussions revealed.

You are correct however in that God does NOT put a stumbling block before us.

BUT Balaam does, Rev 2:14. And that stumbling block for believers is the doctrine you follow of righteousness by works of the law.

The stumbling block doctrine we see from Adventism is fornication (Rev 2:14) with Hagar/the law (Gal 4:24, 1Cor 5).

BUT,Christians are dead to the law by the body of Christ, Rom 7:4. Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.

Francis, God loves you and calls on you to repent, Rev 2:16.
Believe in Jesus.
---Haz27 on 3/23/13


be holy for i am holy,God would not say for us to do this if it wernt possible.faith without deeds is dead while we dont do deeds for salvation we do them from salvation.read james 2v24 God bless
---Adam on 3/23/13


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NO WE CANNOT, THOUGH WE SHOULD TRY WILL ALL OUR MIGHT!!!

Rom7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Ro7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

As long as a christian lives on this earth he will wage war with his fleshly nature. As hard as we try we will still fail, if not in deed at least in thought.
---trey on 3/22/13


//While Jesus obeyed the law perfectly, can we as humans stained with sin, capable of doing the same? Romans 7:19
---
Francis //YES WE CAN

In a narrow sense you are correct in that while sin is defined as the transgression of the law, Christians are not under the law and their sin does not count against them. Romans 4:8

They are, however, to strive to be holy in all manner of behavior.1Pe 1:15

And unlike the belief held by Adventists that one must work to become holy, it is the Holy Spirit working within the believer to transform him into the image of Christ.

Our works of righteousness are viewed as filthy rags.
---e.lee7537 on 3/22/13


While Jesus obeyed the law perfectly, can we as humans stained with sin, capable of doing the same? Romans 7:19
---e.lee7537 on 3/21/13
YES WE CAN

In the past we may have stumbled but:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

and God will NEVER put a stumbling block in my way
---francis on 3/22/13


Jesus didn't obey the law perfectly on his own. He in his righteousness and purity far greater than any other human, never claimed to do or say without God leading and guiding him. At all times Jesus obeyed.

And that is what we are to do.. hear, and obey.

In Romans 7:19 is described a person in a position without God's assistance. Like a person trying to get over a wall too high.
But David wrote, "By him I can leap over a wall."

We are to overcome every obstacle, by faith.
---jan4378 on 3/22/13


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Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Now, if I ask you elee, would you say you walk after the Spirit? I am sure you would say so.

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Now, if I ask you again here now, do you walk after perfection also? Yes? No?
---Nana on 3/22/13


We can strive. We can strive to be holy. We can strive for perfection. We can produce fruit in keeping with repentence. We can work upon such. There is not a saint in the Bible who was perfect. All our righteousness is filthy rags. We do not obtain perfection in this realm in bodies of death and the sin of Adam at work in us. But our hope is through faith and following. Through him is victory. But none are worthy to open the scroll. Only Christ. No other Bible account has a person obeyed the law perfectly. Even after Pentecost and outpouring of the Spirit, the apostles had pronounced disputes and conflicts. (Galatians 2:11-14 and Acts 15:36-41) If the apostles under Christ could not obtain perfection, how can we?
---born on 3/22/13


//If the man can obey the law perfectly, then the Father wouldn't have willed that His Son come into this world and "die for the sins of His people", would He?
---
One argument is that we can obey the law perfectly under the power of the Holy Spirit. But Paul never taught that as in Romans 7:19 he claimed not to be able to obey the law.

Our Adventists have this theory that they can grow spiritually to the point where they become perfect and thus merit the eternal life to come.

And that is basically what their Investigative Judgment belief says as the final judgment will be on works.
---e.lee7537 on 3/22/13


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