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Rapture Scenarios Play Out

How will the Rapture scenario play out? What are some Scripture Verses to support a particular view?

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 ---Gordon on 3/25/13
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Gordon, lets go ahead and say that the "caught up" of the saints is the Rapture you talked about. I can agree on changing the name. The problem is not in the word rapture, it is on the "Coming" of Christ. He came the first time, and will come again a Second time.
Now on Daniel 9:27) 70 weeks, you do understand that 70 weeks mean 70 weeks, not 69 weeks and more then two thousand years later 1 week? Here is why, if you told me I am going to die in 3 weeks, don't you think I would expect to die in 3 weeks, not two weeks, and 30 years later another week. Logic requiers that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69 week. If it doesn't then it cannot be properly be called 70th week.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/13


Gordon, you say I misquote but I only answer on what you write down. Yet you continue to condemn me with comments like:

"His Bride cannot be labeled as a "Second Coming". I don't care if you don't believe in the Rapture, you'll have to answer to GOD about that."

As if God is going to punished me for not believing your story with three comings of Christ. You haven't answered from the Bible why the Coming of Christ in (1 Thess. 4:15-17) is not a Coming when it says coming. Does "coming" only means "coming" when someone touches the earth. Not even you will be lost for not understanding the Second Coming. We are saved by grace through faith, not by understanding the end time prophecy.
---Mark_V. on 4/16/13


Mark V, The understanding, concerning Daniel's 70 Weeks, is that the 69 weeks have been fulfilled, and the 70th week has yet to come to pass. And, that 70th Week is what is called the Tribulation, (incl. the Great Tribulation). the Rapture is important because, while the Earth is going through her Tribulation of Judgments, the Bride and Wedding Guests, who were raptured, will be celebrating the Marriage Supper of the Lamb up in Heaven, REVELATION 19:9. In other words, the Tribulation Judgements are not for GOD's Faithful, only for the sinful heathen and rebellious. And, Scripture does admonish us to "Pray to be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to 'escape these things to come'", LUKE 21:36, the Rapture, etc.
---Gordon on 4/15/13


Mark V, I did not rebuke you for merely questioning what I said. I rebuked you for MIS-QUOTING ME, which you did! You twist my words around. The term "Second Coming" can ONLY be applied to the Event where YAHUSHUA literally comes back down onto Earth to start His 1,000-Year Reign. I have made that perfectly clear! That Event is totally different than the Rapture, where He will come down toward the Earth, but He will STOP MID-AIR ABOVE THE EARTH to catch up His Bride. YOU kept saying that I was trying to preach "TWO Second Comings". A Coming for His Bride cannot be labeled as a "Second Coming". I don't care if you don't believe in the Rapture, you'll have to answer to GOD about that. But, stop mis-quoting me!
---Gordon on 4/15/13


Gordon, show me what I am reading wrong. Jesus came once, will come again to gather His bride at the resurrection, if there was another coming it would be the Third Coming of Christ. This is your main topic on the Rapture. The Coming of Christ. That is why I said if you cannot get the Coming of Christ correct, how can you get the rest correct?
Why don't you just go to the 70 weeks of Daniel? Lets cover that area now, this one is old.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13




Gordon, you say I'm subburn for the wrong reasons. Isn't the Truth a good reason? You want to speak of godly matters and turn around and slap me in the face for questioning your story. you say,
"There are not "Two Second Comings" of YAHUSHUA to the Earth". There's a Coming of the Lord to take up His Bride in the air, to Heaven for the Lamb's Wedding, and THEN, there will be, later on, the "Second Coming" of YAHUSHUA to the Earth to reign for 1,000 Years." If there is a coming of Christ to take up His bride and there is another coming of Christ, won't that be a Third coming? He already came, You say, He comes for His bride, then He comes again, isn't that three comings? Isn't this worthy of Truth?
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


Mark V, You mis-read me yet again. I did not "call you AN ANIMAL". I was saying that you are stubborn LIKE a mule. And, yes, I used the KJV word "ass" to help prove my point. You have been stubborn, and for the wrong reasons. I can't dialogue with you when you twist around what I say. I plainly told you at least 3 to 4 times that THRERE IS ONLY ONE "Second Coming". For, what is commonly called the "Second Coming" is when YAHUSHUA literally and physically returns onto the Earth to Reign. That will only happen ONCE. The Rapture is something totally DIFFERENT. It is not called a "Second Coming". It's Him coming to rapture His Bride UP to Him in the air. It's not called a Second Coming to Earth.
---Gordon on 4/14/13


Mark V, I apologize to you if I offended you. But, carefully read my words and quit mis-quoting what I say. If you don't agree with what I say, that's fine, just don't quote me as saying something that I didn't say! I THESSALONIANS 5:14 is speaking of the Rapture. It uses the word "Coming", but it is not the same as THE "Second Coming" of YAHUSHUA to Earth. There are not "Two Second Comings" of YAHUSHUA to the Earth". There's a Coming of the Lord to take up His Bride in the air, to Heaven for the Lamb's Wedding, and THEN, there will be, later on, the "Second Coming" of YAHUSHUA to the Earth to reign for 1,000 Years. I am not Latino. I'm American. Spanish is a second-language for me.
---Gordon on 4/14/13


Gordon, so you think I should thank you for calling me an animal? Do your think that will make things ok with God or that it makes your story true? Don't you realize there is many who do not belief your story. I am not the only one. Are they animals because they do not belief your human story of Left Behind, a dispensational view?
Do you not know "La Venida del Senor" in (1 Thess. 4:15) y ""La venida de nuestro Senor Jesucristo" in (2 Thess. 2:1) means the same thing? Even in spanish it is the same thing. "La Venida" is mentioned in both passages. But you are a subborn with no answers from Scripture only what you belief. You are not an animal but a latino with a story.
---Mark_V. on 4/14/13


Mark V, Do you see how you TWIST my words around? I said that you are AS a "stubborn ass". I did not say that you are a "stupid a**" in the vulgar sense. "Stubborn ass" is KJV for a STUBBORN DONKEY OR MULE. An animal created by GOD. But, YOU turned around and MIS-QUOTED me, as you often do, and said that I called you something I didn't. You merely proved my point that you DO NOT understand nor read carefully what I post. Instead, you filter everything I say through your lack of understanding. Because IF you had understanding you would at least quote me accurately. But, you don't. This is why I will not address you whenever you only argue against any revelation of GOD's Word instead of taking it to GOD in Prayer!
---Gordon on 4/13/13




Michael e, what is your point concerning those who believed?
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13


I Cor 15:52
Nowhere in propecy has it been hinted that theres ever going to be a day when living people are going to be translated.

"Behold I show you a mystery,..." another secret. Some simply refuse the concept of the Rapture, and when they do, they discount Paul.
I Thess 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (same language), concerning them which are asleep," (died in Christ),"that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
I Thess 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

"For if we..." Believe! It doesnt say if we are repenting and are baptized
---michael_e on 4/12/13


Gordon, you say, I don't mind been question, as soon as I question you, you throw me under the bus by condemning me for not believing your story, then call me a dumb ass. Is that how you explain Scripture to others? Not one of my questions have you been able to answer. You claim believers in Christ have to be worthy to be the bride. No passage says such things. All genuine believers have faith in Jesus Christ and His works on the cross and His resurrection. If they don't have faith they are unbelievers. They are all spiritually baptist into one Body in Christ. It's a spiritual matter, it has nothing whatsoever to do with works in the flesh. Not one thing. We are saved by grace through faith and that faith not of yourself, it is a gift of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/12/13


Mark V, I don't mind at all being questioned. I LOVE being questioned and challenged. What I despise and tire of is when some people, LIKE YOU, do not want to know the truth about certain subject matters, and you twist my words, Mark V. And, when you "quote" me, You twist the meaning of what I say! You are as a stubborn ass, who does not want to learn, because you think that you already know it all. But, NO, you do not! You do not know nearly as much as you're thinking. I do feel sadness for you, in a way, because of it. You're blind in some subjects. Some Theology you have right, but, that does absolutely no good when you TWIST and PERVERT the rest of Theology. Please, WAKE UP.
---Gordon on 4/12/13


Gordon, you do not want to be questioned. When you cannot even answer the question on the word "Parousia" the Coming of Christ. As students we should question anyone who preaches something we see wrong. I questioned your story, your answer was, the coming of the Lord is not the coming of the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17) clearly says the Coming of the Lord. you say it doesn't, it's written in my Bible. And you say it doesn't mean coming of Christ, if it doesn't mean that and it is secret, why even say He was coming? Then say to me,
" If you haven't figured it out before his arrival, and you are still on this Earth, then you WILL find out the hard way" How will I suffer? Explain, don't just throw me under the bus.
---Mark_V. on 4/12/13


Mark V, I'm very sorry that you do not accept this truth. There surely will be an Anti-Christ World leader. If you haven't figured it out before his arrival, and you are still on this Earth, then you WILL find out the hard way. Furthermore, if you continue to only argue against this truth of the coming A.C., then I WILL NOT respond to your doubting remarks or mocking questions. I simply refuse to waste my time like that any further. Scriptural references to this Anti-Christ: DANIEL 7:8, JOHN 5:43 (YAHUSHUA's own Prophecy of the A.C.), II THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 (He is called the "MAN of Sin", MEANING, it's a real MAN, a PERSON.), REVELATION 13 ("The Beast". His Bestial Mark is the "number of a MAN".), REVELATION 19:20.
---Gordon on 4/11/13


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anyone who is not a Christian is anti-Christ. but....the ANTI-CHRIST is a person that will be believeable, promise great things for people. he will perform miracles. he has one agenda and that is to destroy those left behind. there is a difference the anti-Christ and people who don't believe.
---shira4368 on 4/11/13


Gordon, why do you not understand that anyone who is against Christ is an anti-christ? There is no such One Person, bigger then another anti-christ. What you are saying is what the left behind stories say. There is millions upon millions anti-christ but there is one bigger anti-christ, one supper bad person. Jerry Jenkins give this anti-christ a name, "Nicolae Carpahia." In some he is "Franco Macalousso". They even have him falling in love and getting married. What did Paul teach of this event? Did he say the Church would be gathered before the anti-christ comes, or will anti-christ come first. Before you answer read (2 Thess. 2:1-3) again and again.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/13


Shira, Hi. We can definitely say that the Anti-Christ is THE Son of Perdition, as it says in II THESSALONIANS 2:3. But, the first mention of a "son of Perdition" is attributed to the fallen Apostle Judas Iscariot. YAHUSHUA Himself calls Judas a SOP in JOHN 17:12. Judas is branded that because of his Betrayal against YAHUSHUA, and also because that's where he will forever be throughout Eternity. In Perdition, the Lake of Fire.
---Gordon on 4/10/13


Gordon, satan entered into judas but judas is not the son of perdition. that would be satan I believe.
---shira4368 on 4/10/13


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Mark V, You said there is only one Son of Perdition (Judas Iscariot). I say that there are two Sons of Perdition, Judas Iscariot and the future Anti-Christ. II THESSALONIANS 2:3 says that before the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, be revealed, there must first be a Falling Away, an Apostasy. That is happening now, today. So, the revealing of the Anti-Christ is still yet future. This Verse also calls this Man of Sin the "Son of Perdition". The only other most evil man, other than Judas, that exists in Biblical history is the Anti-Christ, from DANIEL and REVELATION. And, I don't mean just any evil man, for there have been plenty of those throughout history. I said THE most evil. Judas Iscariot and the Anti-Christ.
---Gordon on 4/10/13


Gordon, the Apostasy is already happening? From the moment the Apostolic started. According to Paul the temple of God is the "Church" the word "temple" is the word "Naos" The place occupied by the man of sin. This man of sin seats inside the Church of Christ. It is here that the man of sin was to usurp the place of God. This is the "mystery" the dread danger, the deadly evil, predicted by the Apostle. Paul said antichrist will sit in God's temple. Does not mean he will seat on a four legged chair.
"even now there is many antichrist" (1 John 2:18).
"These many antichrist "went out from us" (1 John 2:19) From within the Church, the temple of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/13


Mark V, There are two Sons of Perdition. Judas is referred to as a SOP, in JOHN 17:12, for his Betrayal of YAHUSHUA. And another one is a SOP, as shown in II THESSALONIANS 2:3. It says, "...for that Day (the Day of CHRIST, the Second Coming of YAHUSHUA to Earth)...for that Day shall not come, except there come a Falling Away FIRST, AND that Man of Sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition." This is a future Prophecy that yet to be fulfilled. It's saying that before YAHUSHUA returns to Earth (AFTER the Rapture!) there first must be a great Falling Away, an Apostasy, and then will the Man of Sin (the Son of Perdition) be revealed." The Apostasy must happen FIRST, then, after that, comes the Son of Perdition, the Anti-Christ.
---Gordon on 4/8/13


Gordon, again you do not understand the Second Coming of Christ. Did you read (Matt 24:36-44)?
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will be the Coming of the Son of Man." Now what happened to those in the time of Noah who rejected the Lord? They all drowned. That was their judgment for rejecting the Lord. Why didn't God leave Noah and family outside the Ark? Because Noah and family were found righteous. So why should believers be left on earth for the Judgment? Why don't you think before you think? On that Day, means the Second Coming of Christ, the Son of Man. The same word "Parousia" for Second Coming of Christ is use.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/13


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Gordon: I believe that you have made an inaccurate assumption. You state that the Lord is on his way to land on earth. He is not. The Bible says that He comes in the clouds to meet us in the air to take us with Him to heaven.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

We will reign 1000 years in heaven with Christ, then return to the earth in the holy city, the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


---jerry6593 on 4/8/13


//The "secret" rapture theory//
Maybe it was revealed to Paul by the risen Christ
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY(SECRET), We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
//The ONLY mention of anyone being "raptured" (caught up)//
Was revealed to Paul
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
No such language in His prophesied second coming Ref, Dan 9 Zech 14 Matt 24 Acts 1 etc etc
---michael_e on 4/7/13


Jerry, As I, and another, has already pointed out here, it makes no sense by any means for the Saints to be "caught up" unto the Lord while He's right on His way down to Earth. What's the point of these Saints riding in a U-turn?? It'd be fun, anyway. But, other than experiencing the thrills of an amusement park ride, what's the real point? They may as well just stay put where they are and YAHUSHUA will meet up with them when He gets down there.
---Gordon on 4/7/13


The ONLY mention of anyone being "raptured" (caught up) in the Bible is in association with the 2nd coming of Jesus, when all the saved of earth (both living and dead) are caught up to meet Him in the air. The wicked wiil remain on earth - those living having been killed by the brightness of His coming. There is no second chance for the wicked, as Jesus has promised to bring His reward with Him.

The "secret" rapture theory began as a ploy of the Catholic Church to counter the assertion of the Protestant Reformers that the RC papal power was the Antichrist. From there it made its way to Oxford University in England and thence to the US.



---jerry6593 on 4/7/13


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When we rightly divide Prophecy from Mystery there is only one relationship to prophecy we can take: prophecy does not describe the present time in which we live, whether it be for the better or the worse.

The millennium, tribulation, restoration of Israel are all parts of Gods prophetic purpose for his chosen nation and not the church. They describe the end times spoken about in prophecy.

The pretribulational premillennial non-prophetic imminent return of Christ is seen as a weak position. It is only weak from the position that does not recognize the difference between Prophecy and Mystery.
---michael_e on 4/6/13


except those dealing with Elijah, Enoch, and Moses about God's people ( those who are alive and the dead in christ)leaving the earth, and going to heaven

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
---francis on 4/6/13


Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen


no secret
it will be bright
noisy
and......Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God, we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD, we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
---francis on 4/5/13


Gordon, running away again. you say to me "Buena Suerte" There is no such thing as luck to the believer in Christ.
You could not disprove that (1 Thess. 4:15-17 is different then 2 Thess. 1:1-3). The same word "Parousia" the Second Coming" is found in both passages. The main point of your whole story. No passages were provide that the word of God is wrong. You say it will be silent, nowhere are we told its silent. Not even the "Man of sin" the "son of perdition" can you answer, because there was only one son of perdition in the Bible, his name was Judas. So he came already. And since the Apostolic Church begin, there has been a fallen away of the visible church.
---Mark_V. on 4/6/13


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//This second coming is going to be noisy, and bright, no secret about it//
Correct, it is a propesied event.
The rapture(catching away) on the other hand was not prophesied, part of Paul's revelation.
---michael_e on 4/6/13


for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Hope this helps you francis
---michael_e on 4/5/13
Hope it helps you
ever heard of a quiet trumpet?

This second coming is going to be noisy, and bright, no secret about it

So much noise that it will wake the dead, so much brightness that it will kill the unrighteous
---francis on 4/5/13


Try using MORE than one verse
---francis on 4/4/13
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Hope this helps you francis
---michael_e on 4/5/13


Francis, Awesome. GOD has things all planned out in various stages. :-)
Mark V., I shake the dust off my feet in "debating" with you. You are not open to the Truth. Buena suerte!
---Gordon on 4/5/13


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---Gordon on 4/4/13
reasonable
---francis on 4/5/13


Gordon, you make many rediculous remarks. you say,
" For all of the Believers who would be accounted worthy of going, will only go according to their Faith. If the Believer who is worthy believes that GOD will rapture him, then, he'll be raptured. If he does not believe, he will not be raptured, but, he's still Saved and going to Heaven, eventually."
Don't you understand that all genuine believer have faith in Christ? There is no genuine believer without faith. All saved have faith. A believer doesn't have to believe in the rapture. First, there is no such thing as a rapture. They are caught up. Then say believers are left behind. And the Day of the Lord is not the Second Coming. Your story and comments are false.
---Mark_V. on 4/5/13


Francis, Those Verses of II PETER 3:10 and ISAIAH 34:4 are speaking of the same Event, which is the "Day of the LORD", the Day of Judgment. That's when all the Damned stand before GOD's White Throne of Judgment and are cast one-by-one into the Lake of Fire, REVELATION 20:11-15. Also, the old heavens and the old present-day Earth are burnt up and the LORD presents the New Heaven and the New Earth, REVELATION 21:1. On the other hand, REVELATION 6:13 "...the stars fell from heaven..." is something that occurs during the Great Tribulation, way before the Day of the LORD. And, the NOISE from the Rapture(s) will only be heard by the Saints being raptured, 'cause it's only meant for them, not the whole World.
---Gordon on 4/4/13


Samuelbb7, Why not go back and re-read what I posted? REALLY RE-READ IT CAREFULLY. I did NOT say that "if one does not believe in the Rapture then they're not really Saved". I SAID, if a Believer does not believe in the Rapture, they will simply not be IN the Rapture. For all of the Believers who would be accounted worthy of going, will only go according to their Faith. If the Believer who is worthy believes that GOD will rapture him, then, he'll be raptured. If he does not believe, he will not be raptured, but, he's still Saved and going to Heaven, eventually. Without Faith it is impossible to please GOD, HEBREWS 11:6. That "Faith" pertains to anything GOD says, not JUST "Faith for Salvation", but, everything else.
---Gordon on 4/4/13


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How will the Rapture scenario play out? What are some Scripture Verses to support a particular view?
---Gordon on 3/25/13
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

TOO NOISY to be secret
---francis on 4/4/13


So Gordan not believing in the Secret rapture makes a person not a Christian. So you are saying we are not saved by Grace alone but by Grace and a correct doctrinal understanding of the rapture as you teach it. So all those who died before this new theory came into being in the late 1800's are lost?

We are saved by Grace alone.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/13


1Sam 4:6 And when the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, What [meaneth] the noise of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews? And they understood that the ark of the LORD was come into the camp.
Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all [ye that are] upright in heart.
Psalms 47:5-6 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.
Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
-If they don't hear Christ coming, I'm sure they'll hear us when He arrives.
---micha9344 on 4/4/13


Mark you say
// His Coming, will be the loudest event ever. It will be so noicey everyone will know.//
I looked and couldn't find that statment
---michael_e on 4/4/13
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Try using MORE than one verse
---francis on 4/4/13


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Mark V, You lack understanding of what I THESSALONIANS 4 is saying. So, you will not be hearing the Shout, the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of GOD as long as you do not believe that there will be a Rapture. As I said, the Shout, the Voice and the Trump are only meant for those going up in the Rapture. SORRY. There is a price to pay for doubting, and for not studying the subject of the Rapture better to shew thyself approved. We get exactly according to what we believe. You don't believe in the Rapture, then, you won't get raptured. It's that simple.
---Gordon on 4/4/13


Mark you say
// His Coming, will be the loudest event ever. It will be so noicey everyone will know.//
I looked and couldn't find that statment
---michael_e on 4/4/13


Gordon, you keep adding to the word of God to make your story true. You say,

"Mark V, The "Shout", the "Voice of the Archangel" and the "Trump of GOD", from I THESSALONIANS 4:16, will be sounds that will only be heard by the Saints who will be raptured"

I looked and could not find that statement. And even if they only heard it, it was not secret. Sounds and trumpets are not silent. Why don't you move on to another part of your story. You spoke of the antichrist which is only found in two books, 1 & 2 John, and you came out with another antichrist out of nowhere. How about Dan. 9:27) or the story you told about saints left behind. Or believers not going through tribulation.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/13


Mark V, The "Shout", the "Voice of the Archangel" and the "Trump of GOD", from I THESSALONIANS 4:16, will be sounds that will only be heard by the Saints who will be raptured.
---Gordon on 4/3/13


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Gordon, I opened the door so you could go to another part, but you insist the Second Coming in (1 Thess. 4:15-17) is not the Second Coming. Here is (v.15)
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the "coming of the Lord" will by no means precede those who are asleep" Did you hear that? His Coming. Then he says about this event,
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God"
We are told this event, His Coming, will be the loudest event ever. It will be so noicey everyone will know. The next verse speaks of been caught up. You tell me, how can it be a secret event?
---Mark_V. on 4/3/13


Mark V, The 7 Churches of REVELATION were actual Churches, but are also symbolic of the entire Church Age. Much of the very faithful Philadelphian Church Age has passed, and we've entered the final and worst phase of Church history, the Laodicean Church Age. Many are lukewarm and compromising. YAHUSHUA says nothing good of the Laodicean Church. It will only be any Philadelphian Saints who will make up the Bride of CHRIST. The lukewarm Saints will be left behind to suffer the Tribulation. Again, Mark, the Rapture is NOT a "Second Coming", it will not be YAHUSHUA literally returning to Earth to set up His Kingdom. The Rapture is YAHUSHUA STILL IN THE AIR taking up His Bride to be with Him in Heaven until He DOES return to Earth to reign.
---Gordon on 4/2/13


Shira, The Rapture is not a "Second Coming". The Rapture will be YAHUSHUA up in the Air calling His FAITHFUL Bride up to Him to take her to Heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Then, when the Great Tribulation on Earth is finished, YAHUSHUA will return to Earth, WITH His Bride all dressed in pure white. He'll defeat the A.C. and reign for 1,000 Years. There is only one Second Coming. And it is a totally different Event from the Rapture. Re-read REVELATION 3. YAHUSHUA plainly says that He will VOMIT the lukewarm Saints out of His Mouth. They will not be raptured up to safety. They shall be left behind to endure Trials and Tribulation, and face tortures and Martyrdom.
---Gordon on 4/2/13


Gordon, I have no problem with the word "Rapture" even if it is not in the Bible, I know why many use that word. That is not the problem at all. The story is the problem, and the suggestion that God would not let anything happen to His Bride, the Church. And the idea there is two Comings of Christ, when there is only one Second Coming. The word "Parousia" is used in (2 Thess. 2:1-3) in (1 Thess 4:17) and in (Matthew 24:27) the exact same word is used in verse 8 describing "the brightness of His coming. Talking of one event.
---Mark_V. on 4/2/13


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Gordon, Christ is coming the second time to take His bride away. Christ has already come once. He will return with great power and a loud noise. He will return with great power and His bride will go with him, the dead in Christ shall rise first and we will all be caught up to be the Jesus forever. God didn't say He would vomit his people up. He was telling His people to be a true Christian or don't be one at all. God is not please with a luke warm believer. they are without good works.
---shira4368 on 4/2/13


The word rapture refers to the catching up of the church. Which is an event that will happen. But what event is the rapture occuring during?

The Second Coming of JESUS is when the church is caught up to meet Him in the air. See Matthew 24.

What does not happen is a secret rapture or secret coming of JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/1/13


Mark V., The absence of the English word "Trinity" in the Bible does not mean that GOD is not a Trinity. So, likewise, the absence of the word "Rapture" in the Bible does not mean that there will be no Rapture. The actual word translated into "Rapture" is the Greek word "Harpazo" which means "to be CAUGHT UP", "to be taken up and carried off". This expression "CAUGHT UP" (Harpazo) appears in II CORINTHIANS 12:2 and I THESSALONIANS 4:16-17 and REVELATION 12:5 and the "caught up". The Saints will be "CAUGHT UP" unto the Lord to meet Him in the Air. A faithful Believer will be raptured according to their Faith in HIS Promise of a protecting Deliverence.
---Gordon on 4/1/13


Gordon, I've learned when Witnesses come to the door kindly and happy, they give you a whole story to convince you their story is true. In the story they add passages and their own theories to make their story true. When I pin them to one part of the story, one topic, they know you are prepared to answer them, so they kindly leave, but will never debate one topic. Here you give a story and I pin you to one topic, and you cannot stay with one topic, so you throw me under the bus for not believing your story. Doesn't a student deserve an answer from a teacher when he is teaching? If we cannot ask and he gets mad and throws you under the bus, it is time to run as fast as you can from him.
You are a good guy, but your interpretation is wrong.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/13


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Mark V, The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible either, but, GOD is still Three-in-ONE.
---Gordon on 3/31/13


Gordon, I do not find the word Rapture in the Bible. And because I do not find it, you get up and run. Why? Because your story has many holes and you do not want to be exposed so you then say to me,
"But, for those who may be serving the LORD faithfully, yet who fight against the truth of the Rapture, and they believe not GOD's revelation of HIS supernatural Protection, they will get exactly what they believe. They shall be left behind" Not only do you want to throw me under the bus for exposing your story, but you suggest believers will be left behind. More false stories. First, the Second Coming does not mean He comes, now this. The gathering of believers does mean believers. You will be my running brother.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/13


Mark V, So, you don't believe in the Rapture. Okay, then, I am not going to debate this issue with you. You can continue on believing that there will be no Rapture, if you want. But, this much I will tell you.....You SHALL receive that which is according to your faith. The Saints who do believe in the Rapture, and are serving the LORD faithfully, and are ready for Him, THEY shall be raptured according to their Faith. But, for those who may be serving the LORD faithfully, yet who fight against the truth of the Rapture, and they believe not GOD's revelation of HIS supernatural Protection, they will get exactly what they believe. They shall be left behind. So the Scripture Verses I leave you with are MATTHEW 15:21-28, and MATTHEW 25:1-13.
---Gordon on 3/30/13


Gordon, you gave a whole story, about two raptures, gave (2 Cor. 6:14) as proof.
First, there is no rapture in the Bible. There is a being caught up of believers with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:17) then suggest it's not the Second Coming. Paul in (2 Thess. 2:1) says:
"Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the Day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition" Did you hear that? Do not be deceived.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/13


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And to whomever would say that YAHUSHUA would not leave behind anyone of His Church to face the Great Tribulation, for He would not leave any "Body Parts" behind....this I say, YAHUSHUA said that He will vomit out the sickenly lukewarm from His Body, from His "Stomach". He will get rid of what is "not settling right" on the inside of His Body (of Believers). And, He will "vomit" them out into the Great Tribulation. That is what REVELATION 3 is telling us. Also, He said, although metaphorically, that "if a body part causes you to sin, cast it off from you....
---Gordon on 3/29/13


Mark V., If you want to call the Rapture(s) a "Second Coming", then go for it. For, there will be a time when YAHUSHUA will rapture up His Bride. Years later He will literally and physically return to the Earth to begin His 1,000 Year Reign. The first Rapture will only be for the Bride. The Bride will only be the Believers who are living without spot or wrinkle. For Christ will not yoke Himself with Believers who are compromising. He shall not be "unequally Yoked", II CORINTHIANS 6:14. The Bride is of those who walk, not in just "imputed Righteousness", but who actually strive to live out Righteousness daily and truly walk the talk. The lukewarm Believers will be LEFT BEHIND to face the chopping blocks.
---Gordon on 3/29/13


Gordon, of course I understand why both of you answer as you do. You believe there is two Second comings. The first invisible and the Second visible. In the invisible one He comes, no one sees Him, His feet do not touch the ground and people just disappear and others left behind to wonder what happen. The visible one, His feet are on the mount of olives.
But His Coming is only once. There is no Third Coming. Remember (Rev. 13)? war with the saints part? The saints are the Church.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/13


Mark you say
//When we are raised from the dead, we will all have glorified bodies prepared for heaven.//
Paul says
1Cor 15,51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---michael_e on 3/28/13


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And it will be just like the day of Noah, some will be saved and the others not.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/13

Interesting. Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah when He returned.

Yet if we are to believe the ones who say the church will go thru the Tribulation to the end, those end days do not look like the days of Noah. No sir, those end days will be bleak. No green grass, no trees, no fresh water, no life in the rivers, seas and oceans, scorching heat from the sun, the moon and sun darkened. Do I need to continue?

No, the days of Noah look like today. Everyone enjoying themselves with plenty to celebrate.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/28/13


Mark V, You are right, what you said, complete Salvation in YAHUSHUA, is the greatest and most important Hope there is. Still, Mark E is speaking about the hope regarding how things will play out on Earth, when the Lord returns before we arrive on the New Earth of REVELATION 21:1. The future 1,000 Reign of YAHUSHUA on Earth will be a hope of sorts that will bring literal Peace on Earth before the final Day of Judgment.
---Gordon on 3/28/13


Mark E. you said to Cluny,
"I see no hope in any of these viewpoints. God cannot be in them" Let's see, when we die in Christ He is our hope of Heaven with Him. When we are raised from the dead, we will all have glorified bodies prepared for heaven. Is there another hope you are looking for? When Jesus comes, there will be no second chances, no hope for the unbelievers. And when He does come, it will be the loudest event ever heard. And it will be just like the day of Noah, some will be saved and the others not.
---Mark_V. on 3/28/13


There is no such thing as a literal millennium measured in fallen terrestrial years.
---Cluny on 3/26/13

I guess I do not need to ask many more questions to know your eschatological view.

My questions are more about a word that fills the NT. It is the word hope.

Where is the hope in the view that Jesus only returns at the end of the Tribulation period? Where is the hope in the view that a millenial reign has already taken place or does not exist at all. Where is the hope for a bride spotless and white when it will see the literal wrath of God?

I see no hope in any of these viewpoints. God cannot be in them.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/27/13


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wow cluny, I can't believe you think the meeting Jesus in the air is just a figure of speech. wow, that amazes me. well, I know we will meet him in the air because my bible tells me so. we will come back to earth for a thousand years and reign with Him.
---shira4368 on 3/27/13


Enoch was Translated out, so why is the translation of the church before the Wrath of God comes so upsetting to so many?

It 's not like it has never happened before.

Scripture shows two coming of Jesus after His Resurrection, one where His Body meets Him in the clouds, that is ,we meet in the air, AND the other where Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives to set up His earthly Kingdom, and we are WITH HIM, already Glorified together WITH HIM, and already given our place and responsibilities in our reign with Him.

Why is it so necessary for the Church to go through the Great Tribulation? So we can prove ourselves by suffering? Well if you haven't done that already by NOW, (and why not) you're not saved to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/13


\\If you agree that the "dead in Christ shall rise first" at His appearing, then those being resurrected during His appearing must be part of the first resurrection described in Rev 20:5-6. \\

There is no such thing as a literal millennium measured in fallen terrestrial years.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/26/13


It will play out just as God said

Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up, and there shall be a time of trouble, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---francis on 3/26/13


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NOWHERE does the Bible teach that this is 1007 years before the Last Judgement.
---Cluny on 3/25/13

Okay then, how about just 1000 years?

If you agree that the "dead in Christ shall rise first" at His appearing, then those being resurrected during His appearing must be part of the first resurrection described in Rev 20:5-6.

This first resurrection takes place before the millenial reign and the last judgment takes place after the millenial reign.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/26/13


As Rapture is total Heresy not all that well, It is Dispensational Darbyism mostly promoted by Dallas Theological Seminary and Bob Jones University. It has no basis in fact and is a misunderstanding of scripture.
---Blogger9211 on 3/26/13


That we will be gathered by Christ to Himself at His appearing is taught in 1 Thess 4.

NOWHERE does the Bible teach that this is 1007 years before the Last Judgement.

Read the Parable of the Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13. NOWHERE does it say that the wheat is gathered 1007 days before the harvest.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/13


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