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Jesus' Agony On The Cross

About Christ's crucifixion and resurrection: For years I could not differentiate between Jesus sacrificing his life, and human beings giving their life for loved ones. Then I learned that the agony of the cross was not pain, but the weight of all sin for all time that was put upon Him. Agree?

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 ---Geraldine on 3/27/13
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3 days and 3 nights---francis on 7/5/13

Now you lost me. Which is okay since I am a simple person as told to me from another.
It shows your intelligence of being able to communicate to us simple folks.

Okay, He suffered 2 days and in the grave 3 days.
Not 3 whole days, but 3 days.
Friday day
Friday night to Saturday dusk
Saturday night until early Sunday.
---Nikki on 7/6/13


Nikki, very well said concerning the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross. There was a guy here some time back who said he suffered more the Jesus Christ. He had gone through a divorce, and he was comparing his pain with that of Christ and Job put together. One of his answers was that Jesus never had to clean a dirty toilet. And that Jesus never got dump from His wife as he had. He found that his pain was worse then Jesus pain on the Cross and even all that Job lost.
It is funny what some individuals will say about the Lord. Jesus suffered a lot for us who believe. I'm sorry He had to die that way.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/13


Good point
---Nikki on 7/5/13

YEEE HAAA
That is what is meant by Jesus beingin the heart fo th earth 3 days and three night.

It is the times of his suffering and death on our behalf

Thursday evening
Thursday night
Friday morning till dusk
Friday night
Saturday in the grave
Saturday evening in the grave

3 days and 3 nights
---francis on 7/5/13


Does include the beating he took on Thursday evening,and Friday morning, the crown of thorns on his head?
Does it include the bloody sweat in the garden, or just teh time on the cross---francis on 7/5/13

I left out the word 'cross', but you are correct. Jesus was in agony for almost 2 days.

All the agony you mentioned made the cross's 3 hours agony even worse.

Good point
---Nikki on 7/5/13


Jesus was in AGONY for 3 HOURS.
---Nikki on 7/5/13
Does include the beating he took on Thursday evening,and Friday morning, the crown of thorns on his head?
Does it include the bloody sweat in the garden, or just teh time on the cross
---francis on 7/5/13




People who don't want to believe Jesus died a horrible death is because of GUILT.

Jesus was in AGONY for 3 HOURS.
Every breath, sweat burning his skin due to the salt rolling down His head and body. The heat beating down on Him.
No clothes, even an undergarment.
The Roman crucified people naked. For Jews this very embarrassing.

But Jesus took the time to think about His neighbor's soul, and His mother situation being a widow and having no other sons to care for her.
Lastly, the mental pain of being forsaken from God for a time being, but saying He trusts God to remember Him in death.

Say thank you in tears.
Don't deny the suffering He underwent for us.
We are GUILTY!
GOD IS MERCIFUL
---Nikki on 7/5/13


Kathr, I can answer one of your questions at a time, You gave,
"John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." True, the Word is the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

"2 The same was in the beginning with God." The same was in the beginning with God. true. The Son was with the Father from the beginning.


"3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." True, all things were made by the Lord Jesus Christ so He existed before His human birth to Mary. All things could not be created by Him if He did not exist until His birth.
If the Son is not eternal, then He is not God who created all things.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/13


Well, the agony of the cross was pain in a way, but the most incredible pain ever. Jesus was separated from God AND the weight of all sin was placed on His shoulders, so that we wouldn't have to bear it and could enter heaven freely upon our salvation.
---A_servant on 7/2/13


I disagree. Jesus was fully human and fully God. He hurt. He felt every single lick, punch, thorns. He suffered more than anyone ever has ever will. He also suffered spiritual agony, because of our sins...Our sins were the thorns in Christ's head, the nails in His hands and feet, the spear in His side. The cross was the most severe punishment for criminals...Isaiah, my favorite book in the Bible, could not have better expressed the infinite love of Christ toward us that by declaring that He takes the highest delight in our salvation,[I was pretty happy myself] and that He rests in it as the fruit of His labors" Isaiah 53.
---Catherine on 7/2/13


Shira, thank you for speaking on behave of Jesus Christ who is the eternal Son of God. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 4/14/13




Markv, more lies. Gee wiz. The EVERLASTING COVENANT, the one you deny existed before the foundation of the world, is where Jesus was in fact foreordained before the foundation of the world to take away sin.

This covenant, between God, the WORD and the Holy Spirit, was on behalf of man, God KNEW would sin, before God ever created man.

God DID exactly as He foretold He would do, Genesis 3:15...

You really can't think outside your 15 memorized verses can you? It's really hard dealing with one so limited in understanding.
---kathr4453 on 4/14/13


The scriptures call Jesus "The son of God" 68 times in the NT.

Scripture Never EVER says. "God the son", not even once. Nor does scripture say, God the eternal Son, Or Begotten God not even once.

To beget means to procreate. And we see only Adam & Eve were created, and after, BEGETTING through Procreation. Procreation is not CREATED, as man cannot create, only God can. From Cain and Abel on, BEGETTING and conception took place. There are no scriptures where Jesus was begotten TWICE.

Mary CONCEIVED of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did the BEGETTING .
---kathr4453 on 4/14/13


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Markv, please tell us all , what part of this do you not get, or rather don't believe, where YOU know more than John who was with Jesus? Does this say he was a lesser god? Did John deny HIS deity? Did John say he was created?
---kathr4453 on 4/13/13


Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is eternal. The WORD who is God was made flesh, born of a virgin. God said to Mary, HE SHALL BE CALLED the Son of God.

I believe "shall be "means at His Incarnation, (along with countless Bible scolors who are BORN AGAIN Christians )otherwise God would have said, He is the Son of God that I birth in eternity Past.

Scripture also would not say THIS DAY have I begotten thee if there was in fact no such "day."and it could not mean eternity past, because God has no beginning or end. Jesus was begotten when Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit. And it is HE whom God said, HE SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD.

Learn how to read Markv, it would help you.

Jesus is GOD.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/13


Markv, another day and you still have not repented.

Oh well, It must be God's will you are one of the unlucky ones who have not been granted the gift of repentance.
---kathr4453 on 4/13/13


Christ is the Son of the living God. He has always been and always will. God knew the sacrifice He had to make for man's sin. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. that one verse is so well known just kicks a hole in the "elect". I am one of the elect because I chose to believe in a Holy God and His Son, Jesus Christ. anyone can believe in their heart that Jesus died for the ungodly.
---shira4368 on 4/13/13


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Kathr, another day and no change. Still, all talk and complaining everyday. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is eternal. He said He is the Creator of all things, you say He is not, that He became the Son through time. Scripture in (1 Peter 1:20,21) speaking of Christ, tells us that Jesus who is the Son of God was "foreordained as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God" but you do not believe that. You say that is not true. So I believe Jesus any day before I believe you. Jehovah Witnesses belief He became a Son, so do Mormons.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13


MarkV, you will go down in history as a heretic for denying the WORD who IS GOD was made flesh, just as scripture tells us. And you will also go down as a heretic for believing re-birthing takes place before one hears the Gospel. What is re-birthed, you have not explained, unless you mean your old Adam spirit you said died when Adam sinned. Yet all Born Again Christians know the New Birth is not a "rebirth" of their old sin man. The OLD MAN was crucified with Christ...Romans 6...not re-birthed.

I am delighted I do not believe as you or was brainwashed as you, but was taught TRUTH bu the only one who has authority to call Himself TRUTH, that is Jesus Christ=GOD. You're not God or TRUTH!
---kathr4453 on 4/12/13


Kathr, I have never called John MacAthur or A. Pink liars. So far everything I have read from A. Pink is true. I do not believe in the interpretation of dispensationalist concerning the End Times. I love all the great pastors and theologians from the past that taught the Truth on the Sovereignty of God and MacArthur is one of them. End Times prophecy and knowing it saves no one. No one is lost because they do not understand end time prophecy, but they will be lost if they do not believe the Son of God is eternal.
What I do do is call you a liar. Now you are a real liar, for you compromise the Truth just to argue. And you do a very good job of it.
---Mark_V on 4/12/13


Well MarkV you call John McArthur a liar, AW Pink a Liar and who only knows how many more who are actually called into the ministry unlike yourself who you call a liar.

EVERYONE is a liar to you who doesn't agree with your very shallow understanding of scripture taken out of context. You build on 15 verses, where these gifted men build on the WHOLE COUNCIL of God.

So MarkV, you are one of a billion + people in the world who has not really made a name for himself except to call everyone a liar. Not a great legacy you leave behind. You major in the minors, and will never move up to the Majors.
---kathr4453 on 4/12/13


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Kathr, good morning to you. It is another day, and the same answers come from you, so for now, there is no change. How many times do you want me to say that I do not hate you, I hate the doctrines you present, because they are mostly heretical. I disagree with many, but no one is like You. The Truth has been presented to you, and you did not recognize it. Like Pilot, when he asked Jesus: "What is Truth?"
He did not recognize the Truth and He was standing right in front of him. He was so blind. I don't know why you do what you do, but the evidence is that you are not one of the elect, at least not yet. If you were, some evidence would show. I leave all of that to God. When you change, I will show you the same respect you show me.
---Mark_V. on 4/11/13


So Markv, you can't understand the different Covenants, and lower yourself to personal insults towards me, hoping it goes unnoticed how you operate when found lacking in understanding.

Pathetic beyond words.

Even Christan made such a post a while back, and I was pleased that he understood this too. But for some reason, I can say and believe the same thing and I need meds?

Markv, this is why I have no respect for you. You continue to make a horses hind end out of yourself over and over for personal hatred. THIS is not of God, but your own issues you need to REPENT OF.
---kathr4453 on 4/10/13


Kathr, just more arguing. You cannot admit you were wrong. I mean completely wrong. Now you want to twist the passages again. Sounds like you need to take your pills Kathr. My step-daughter didn't take her pills either and she went banannas very easy, till I showed her the door. Take your pills or else leave.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/13


Markv, if this covenant was made with man, and not FOR man, how and what are YOU doing to keep Covenant?

You see the Everlasting Covenant was ANNOUNCED in Genesis 3:15, and again established with Noah's descendants, and then further EXPLAINED to Abraham.

Now the one you are referring to in Jeremiah is the NEW COVENANT, also re-stated by Paul in 2nd Corinthians 3.

And yes too this is also everlasting. And yes too it is also incorporated into THE Everlasting Covenant. It REPLACED the one given to Moses, but never replaced the one Announced in Genesis3:15 or the one further revealed to Abraham.

Abraham was long before the LAW, and the Law did not annul that Covenant given to Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/13


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Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


You are a Gentile Markv, and you have received the blessing given to Abraham that came to Gentiles, that is if you have the faith of Abraham. But you make no such claim, rather believing you came through Jacob/Israel where with Jacob no faith was required for his being elected. Show where Jacob had to have Faith to believe he was the Elect?

This is clearly taught in Galatians, so please stop calling me a liar. Lest you find yourself WACKY and obnoxious in driving people away with your fanaticism of always having to be right at the expense of TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/13


Blessings back at you Peter! :)

James 3:2-6(ESV)

2 "For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. 4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things.

How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness..."
---Leon on 4/6/13


Kathr, I expose your lie about the everlasting covenant. It was made with man and you clearly said it was not.
It's the plan of redemption. It is everlasting. So the best you could do was to say I like to hear myself talk. I really don't talk while I am writing, but you do, I can hear you all the way to San Jose, an so many times it is not good at all.
I have only just learned how to copy and paste, but yet have not learned how to put a spell check on this website. I have a great morning with the Lord before I start.
---Mark_V. on 4/6/13


so MarkV, what is your problem? Do you think cutting and pasting someone elses words is more effective? Don't you have those words in your own voice?

My Bible says EVERLASTING COVENANT in Hebrews 13. But if you want to call it the eternal covenant so be it. That statement you copied and pasted here does not disagree with what I said.

Your ability to comprehend what is said is the problem.
That's why you need to copy and paste anothers
words.

Me thinks you just like to hear yourself talk markv.
---kathr4453 on 4/5/13


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Kathr, I showed from the word of God that God included man in His everlasting Covenant. You denied that truth, you lied. Then said,
"Jesus was forordained before the foundation of the world..." We are told He was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20) You say,
"and raised from the dead through the blood of the Everlasting Covenant." The covenant of redemption is everlasting. The writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant " ( 13:20) And since the plan of redemption is thus traced back into eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was thus to be redeemed had to also extend back into eternity.
---Mark_V. on 4/5/13


Kathr, again I say, I do not hate you, I do not even know you personally, how could I hate you? I would respect what you say, if you had respect for others and me, but you let your mouth speak what is in your heart, and your heart is so corrupt that you will do anything, even to compromise the Truth when you are found to be wrong. So I treat you with the same respect you show me. Don't try to convince me you are saved, convince God. He knows your heart and the destination your heading to. He ordained when you would be born, when you would die, and whether you would belief, since He gives believers the faith to belief.
---Mark_V. on 4/5/13


Markv, also, the Everlasting Covenant is what secures your salvation, and why you can't lose it.


David suffered much because of his actions, leading even to the rape of his daughter, and death of his most precious son

When I was first saved, and told I could lose my salvation, The Lord showed me the Davidic Covenant. I was WOWED! Then The Lord said to me, if you like that one, I'll show you one even better than that. He did. I believe Him, and your rantings can never take that away from me.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/13


God made a Covenant with Noah, also an everlasting covenent that God would never again flood the earth.


But THE Everlasting Covenant was made before the foundation of the world having to do with redemption. Jesus was forordained BEFORE the foundation of the world to die and rise again for the sin of man. So this particular covenant between Father the Word and the Holy Spiritwas while we were yet sinners.

The Holy Spirit Raised Jesus From the Dead.

None of this involved your participation MarkV to make it happen. It was God's plan before you or man were ever created.

How can you say you were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world, if no covenent was established before the foundation of the world?
---kathr4453 on 4/4/13


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MarkV, I really wish you would calm down and deal with this hatred you have festering like a putred sore on your soul. No one wants to hear your continued hatred here, and it is ruining your credibility and testimony.

If you're going to call EVERYTHING I say a LIE, then there is something really wrong WITH YOU. We may not agree on many issues MarkV, but not EVERYTHING YOU SAY is a lie. and not everything Gordon or Francis or anyone else says is a lie where you alone believe you have 100% of the truth.

Please grow up here and show others what a Godly man looks and acts like. If you want respect, SHOW respect.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/13


Here Kathr again makes another false statement she says,
"The Everlasting Covenant was made with NO MAN. THAT Covenant was made between God, the WORD and the Holy Spirit."
////MarkV

MarkV, even Christan believes this too, and has stated as much on CN. What a YUTZ you are. Again failure to read and comprehend.

Jesus was forordained before the foundation of the world...and raised from the dead through the blood of the Everlasting Covenant. .

Now any good student as well as teacher including John MacArthur, A.W. Pink and many Calvinists believe this too Markv.

You are wearing out your cursing...and I am so glad to you have lost total credibility here, denying your own faith just to curse me.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/13


Peter, thank you for your answer. It is very important that the Truth be told. Lies and speculations will only hinder the believers walk with Christ. Here Kathr again makes another false statement she says,
"The Everlasting Covenant was made with NO MAN. THAT Covenant was made between God, the WORD and the Holy Spirit."
She says the everlasting Covenant was not made with man. Jeremiah 32:39-41) we are told
"...And I will make an everlasting Covenant "with them," that I will not turn away from "doing them good," but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me..." (Jer. 32:38-41).
We need to expose the lies so that believers can know the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/13


Leon:While all of your ideas sound good, they are much harder to put into practice than to state as an idea.

The idea of 'speaking in a Christian manner' (my term), for example, is not something that all people will agree when asked in a particular statement is 'in a Christian manner'

I agree that far too many comments are not 'in the manner of Christ'

But who can really enforce this on a web site?

Blessings
---Peter on 4/3/13


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I don't know about you Geraldine, but I hate it when people have dog fights on the blogs I post or any other blogs for that matter. It's so rude, disrespectful & unchristlike! The moderators should perhaps set aside a blog solely for dog fights. Even better, CN mods shouldn't allow people who choose not to be civil to participate in the blogs.
---Leon on 4/3/13


No I don't MarkV, and it appears you have not read what exactly I have said about the NATION Israel who are alive through the Great Tribulation, that only 1/3 will actually be saved. But that's because you can't read for one, fail to listen for another, and call God a liar for yet another. I gave you Zechariah 12-14. Have you SEEN that happen YET MarkV? and can you show where God called that off?
---kathr4453 on 4/3/13


Kathr, you talk so much you really don't have one point to argue. First of all you suggest that all Israel will be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. Also suggesting all the people from Israel through history who died in their sins will be given a special enterance into the kingdom without faith in Christ. In other words their is salvation without Christ.
I'll tell you what, if anyone from Israel wants to be saved, they must have faith in Jesus Christ otherwise they are go to hell.
Even the Pharisees and Sadducees didn't have real faith like Abraham did, yet they claimed to be his children, just like you. John the Baptist exposed this delusion in (Matt. 1:9-10). He layed the ax to the root of the tree.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/13


Markv, there are many Covenants in the Bible. God even made a Covenant with Noah, and then again the Davidic Covenant.

The Everlasting Covenant was made with NO MAN. THAT Covenant was made between God, the WORD and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was raised from the dead through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant. It had nothing to do with you, or Israel or any man.

I do know the Covenants in scripture Markv, and to stay grounded, YOU need to know them too.
---kathr4453 on 4/2/13


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Sorry that was to Hazzler. Now Hazzler....or possibly Markv new name here, , the "Everlasting Covenant "was made BEFORE the foundation of the world.

God made more than one to Abraham, and then the Law, and the Mosaic Covenant was given to Israel.

The Davidic Covenant is awesome, as it is rather of Grace than Law.

Then there is the NEW Covenant, doing away with the old Mosaic Covenant, based on Grace, not LAW.

Then The Palestinian Covenant, having to do with LAND. The Church was never promised LAND, so no, the ChurcH does not inherit those Covenants given to Israel alone .


---kathr4453 on 4/2/13


kathr, you go on about covenant this and covenant that, yet it seems you don't understand these covenants. God has made no covenant with anyone EXCEPT Israel. In order to partake of these covenants, YOU must become Israel. How do you become Israel? By renouncing your false gods and accepting the God of Israel AND be circumcised (See Romans). That's Abraham's covenant. Moses' covenant requires all that PLUS OBEDIENCE to the covenant. Granted, this is not NEW Israel, it IS TRUE Israel.
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments." 1John 5:2
---hazzlar on 4/2/13


MarkV, your arrogance is appauling on every blog you post....any time someone disagrees with you or has a different belief on a subject, they are "corrupt, satanic, twisted" and the names go on and on.

MarkV, let's just say WE are not of the same beliefs. Yet I see no scripture stating MarkV is who we are to measure our self and understanding by.

Until I see such a verse, MarkV, you are just another bla bla blaer here.

Only an unregenerate person could read Romans 11, the comclusion to Romans 9, and say it is addressed to the Church you call "the (New) Israel of God". I don't believe in replacement Theology MarkV...GOT THAT! The CHURCH is Not Israel.
---kathr4453 on 4/2/13


Kathr, you now say many things again not true.
"Now Markv, you may want to re-read Romans 9 again in light of the fact that PROMISE is an everlasting Promise, and was NOT conditional in any way"
It is conditional, a person must belief in the works of Christ. Because the promise is only for those who belief. And faith comes from God. When He gives that faith, then and only then will they belief.
Not all Israel will be saved, the past Israel which rejected Christ, who have already died in their sins, and are dying today, there is no second chances for them. The Israel of God is a spiritual Israel. The flesh profits nothing.
---Mark_V. on 4/2/13


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Kathr, here Nana agrees with you. The blind leading the blind. On the other post you stated that there was no condition on the covenant promise, and Here you say:
"Even YOUR salvation is based on the Everlasting Covenant..that those who put their faith inHim, Jesus Christ WIL BE SAVED, whether you like it or not."
and turn around and contradict what you first said that it was not conditional. The condition is belief in the works of Christ through faith, and that faith comes from God, so before you belief in Christ you have to be a child of God, born of the Spirit. Jesus said,
"If God were your Father, you would love Me.." (John 8:42). In order to love Christ you must be a child of God.
---Mark_V. on 4/2/13


Genesis 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant, and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

This is what God said to Noah before the Flood.

You ask, what Covenant? Ans: the one PROMISED in Genesis 3:15

So we see God works through His Covenant promises. And it was BECAUSE of that PROMISE the whole of mankind was not wiped out. BECAUSE God cannot LIE, or renege on His PROMISES.
---kathr4453 on 4/2/13


God deals with man according to His Covenant Promises MarkV, not according to his fancy....please learn the scriptures and know what is true based on scripture and not you nonsense! Even YOUR salvation is based on the Everlasting Covenant..that those who put their faith inHim, Jesus Christ WIL BE SAVED, whether you like it or not.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/13


"Markv, God said to Abraham, I will bless those who bless you, and curse hose who curse you.

Therefore Markv, any nation or people like Pharaoh 2, not Joseph's Pharoah were dealt with according to God's promise to Abraham, NOT BECAUSE GOD HATED JUST TO HATE."

kathr4453 on 3/31/13

Absolutely agree.
---Nana on 3/31/13


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Sorry,need to restate.

Well, both Pharaoh's were dealt with according to God 's COVENANT PROMISE to Abraham. The 1st Pharaoh was in fact blessed by God, that was at Joseph time, and the 2nd Pharaoh was cursed.

Now Markv, you may want to re-read Romans 9 again in light of the fact that PROMISE is an everlasting Promise, and was NOT conditional in any way , and has NO expiration date, and it is because of that COVENANT PROMISE, where God cannot LIE, that in the End, ALL ISRAEL will be saved, as a Deliver, this time Jesus Himself, will come out of SION ,AKA Heaven , called the second coming. Zechariah 12-14.

Then you will see the WRATH of God come on ALL NATIONS who come against Israel.

AGAIN Zechariah 12.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/13


Kathr, nothing you say can change the fact that God is God and the Determinator of when you will be born, where you will be born, when you will die, and where you will live. You do not have the ability to know or the ability to change what God has ordained already. It is His plan not yours. In Him we live, and move and have our being (Rom. 17:28).
But you on the other hand demand freedom from God. You do not have faith to depend on Him, you want and insist to continue to depend on your own freedom. Thinking in your little mind you can change the future that God already knows as fact. You are going where God determined already. And the more you push for your freedom, the more you will get what you deserve, but not in heaven.
---Mark_V. on 4/1/13


Markv, God said to Abraham, I will bless those who bless you, and curse hose who curse you.

Therefore Markv, any nation or people like Pharaoh 2, not Joseph's Pharoah were dealt with according to God's promise to Abraham, NOT BECAUSE GOD HATED JUST TO HATE.

So Markv, before you continue to spat your ignorance again....study scripture and stop making a horses rear out of yourself. You are the one BLIND here.
---kathr4453 on 3/31/13


Geraldine: Christ gave his life to pay for our sin. No one else could've done that except the perfect, "sinless" Lamb of God ~ Jesus Christ. He sacrificed Himself so our souls could be saved when we believe on Him.

When we sacrifice our lives for others it's to protect their physical lives here on earth. That in no way compares to what Christ did for us.

Jesus was a man who felt pain like us! He suffered & died an intensely agonizing, humiliating & painfully cruel death. He was viciously beaten, repeatedly spat upon, ridiculed & mercilessly impaled, hands & feet, upon the cross where he bled & hung for three hours. THEN, He was rejected by Father God, BECAUSE OF OUR SIN, to lift OUR death penalty.
---Leon on 3/31/13


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"Which means that we do not know if we are the elect! That is why Jesus said ' Those who endure to the end will be saved" Ruben

On the contrary, as the elect of God walks this earth by His mercy and grace, God will make sure he knows the Truth. The faith that God gives the elect will act out in belief of His Word in that "Man does not live on bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." There will be many test along the way that's prepared by the Father for the elect before he's taken "home".

Yes indeed, those who's drawn by the Father will most definitely endure to the end - it's His promise that's not dependent on the man. Nor his imaginative "free-will"!
---christan on 3/31/13


Kathr, I cannot proof anything to you, because you have no spiritual understanding. How can you comprehend God, when your heart has been hardened? Just not possible. You say,
"Markv, GOD LOVES the SINNER, He just hates SIN."
No such passage has ever stated that. It's a made up statement that comes from those who believe God loves everyone the same. Did He love the army of Pharaoh He destroyed with the waters the same as the Isralites? Did He love all the firstborns who died by He commanded through the angel of death? Or all the nations who were destroyed by the command of God? He loved Israel, He did not love the other nations. In the flood, little children and babies died, He love them so much He destroyed them too.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/13


Ruben, when the passage says, (John 3:16)
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" it means He loved what He created so much that He decided to give His own Son. For what reason?
"that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
He died for those who belief only, so that they can have eternal life.
So whosoever does not believe stays condemned.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
---Mark_V. on 3/31/13


Markv, GOD LOVES the SINNER, He just hates SIN.

When you stop twisting God's Word, maybe you will get it.

YOU cannot prove you are one of the Elect.

Anyone can say...I'm the Elect.

That doesn't make it so.

You cannot prove God picked you and not your son.

Although that may be the only way you care to deal with it, blame God right.

Clean out your ears Markv. You can't MAKE a verse say what you want, just because you want it to.

Whosoever WILL is the same meaning no matter where you place that word.

Whosoever comes to my home today by 3PM will receive a free gift of bread.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/13


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Kathr, what's so amazing is, you belief the garbish you teach. You have turned every passage around just to defend your rights against God. And speak of God after you have hammered His Sovereign right to do with His creation what He so pleases. You say no, the clay has a right to be formed the way he wants to be formed, the Potter has no right.
Jed, seems to think because God loves the whole world He created, that He is obligated to love every single individual the same. God does love the lost in many ways, many times the lost live in better conditions, drive better cars, live in better homes, brings rain and sunshine to them, in that way He does love them too. But if God were their Father they would love Christ, and they don't.
---Mark_V. on 3/30/13


The "whosoever" in context of Scriptures presented clearly points only to "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... My Father, which gave them me" - and that's His Elect! And only the triune God knows who belongs to Him.
---christan on 3/29/13

Which means that we do not know if we are the elect! That is why Jesus said ' Those who endure to the end will be saved"
---Ruben on 3/30/13


Christan, with your definition of "whosoever " meaning all the elect, how do you reconcile Revelation...."whosoever takes the mark of the beast." Are you saying only the elect take the mark of the beast, since whosoever is only the elect?

Noone ,unless taught such nonsense by man, would come up with such nonsense.

Nowhere are any scriptures, (yes you need more than one verse to establish a pattern,) where whosoever means "the elect only."

"Johnny one notes "have no support of truth, therefore establish no doctrine unless backed up by at least two or three verses.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/13


'Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.' -Romans 5:18.
---Love.wins on 3/29/13


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"There's just one big problem with that statement. "For God so loved THE WORLD"." Jed

The "big problem" is your understanding of John 3:16, not with what Christ declared. "that whosoever believeth" clearly does not advocate nor teach "free-will" and that's because "whosoever" has a reference - and it's definitely not any Tom, Dick and Harry.

The "whosoever" in context of Scriptures presented clearly points only to "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... My Father, which gave them me" - and that's His Elect! And only the triune God knows who belongs to Him.
---christan on 3/29/13


Correction. Christ's death at Calvary was not in vain, period. That is, those who don't/can't believe is simply according to Scripture, Christ never died for them and they were not given to Him to begin with. To say that one has to believe to be saved is saying His death was in vain. The saved will belief.

His death on the cross did not make man savable but SAVED "His people from their sins". Christ even declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
---christan on 3/28/13


There's just one big problem with that statement. "For God so loved THE WORLD".
---Jed on 3/28/13


I agree with Shira.

No Christ's death was not in vain. Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. SOOOOO even if only ONE person received His Gift of salvation, even if only ONE PERSON believed, guess what, He would still do it again.

That is what is so amazing about God's love for His creation.

Don't listen to the skeptics who have NO FAITH to begin with.

Shira, when you married, you stepped out in FAITH, right? You were not given a crystal ball to see the END before making that decision. If you saw the end, it wouldn't be faith. We don't have to SEE anything before we believe.

They still can't tell us WHAT they SAW before they believed...which again is not FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 3/29/13


Bro. Christan, very good points you brought out. When the Bible speaks of "our" "us" "we" and the word "you" when addressing believers gathered together, it is talking about the believers or those who will come to Christ. The "we" cannot mean every single individual, for they are not part of the "we" or "us." The Bible speaks to those who belief.
"And "you" (believers) He made alive who were dead in trepasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) Speaking to a group of believers who were once walking according to the course of this world but are now believers, alive to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/13


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Christian, read Isaiah 53 we are healed by His stripes means salvation. it is a prophesy concerning Jesus on the cross. what He suffered on the cross was for our salvation. our souls are saved and "healed" from sin.
---shira4368 on 3/29/13


"it means He heals us from sin. He gives us life if only we believe." shira

Correction. Christ's death at Calvary was not in vain, period. That is, those who don't/can't believe is simply according to Scripture, Christ never died for them and they were not given to Him to begin with. To say that one has to believe to be saved is saying His death was in vain. The saved will belief.

His death on the cross did not make man savable but SAVED "His people from their sins". Christ even declared, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
---christan on 3/28/13


Geraldine I agree. We know Jesus felt physical pain. But It was the Pain of separation that moment our sin was placed on Christ God had to look away, and at that moment Jesus said..."My God My God why has thou forsaken me".was the most painful.

WE will never understand that kind of pain. However a glimpse of it to some degree is when we sin we squelch the Holy Spirit in us and know we are out of fellowship with God our Father, and that part is most painful. But Just as Jesus never lost His Place with God the Father, we don't either.

Giving your life for another is out of LOVE. I would gladly die for my children and not think one thing about the pain of it..
---kathr4453 on 3/28/13


amen trey. Jesus Christ suffered everything we go thru. grief, death, humiliation, and pain. He had the sins of the world on Him. being healed by His stripes is salvation. some think that means God died to heal us from sickness but that is not what that means. it means He heals us from sin. He gives us life if only we believe.
---shira4368 on 3/28/13


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Why can it not be both?

Who said these were opposites?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/27/13


No, I don't agree. Jesus was in severe pain. He was fully human which means he had a nervous system and other factors that caused Him pain.

I think people are feeling guilty for causing Him pain, so they make excuses.
---Nikki on 3/27/13


"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."
Isaiah 53:4-6,10.
---christan on 3/28/13


yes and no.

Remember Jesus was fully man so between the flogging in which the Romans could make your organs fall out and keep you alive. His collapse on the road to the cross. Brused heel, death of a heart attack, suffication - the cross would usually kill because the person could no longer stand up to breathe. The cross was a torture device.
I agree with the effect of sin being placed on him and God feeling the separation and loss of community with the Father.
---Scott1 on 3/28/13


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Geraldine, I believe that Christ suffered the wrath of God the Father for you and me, so that we would not have to.

Christ suffered the wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked.

1 Thes1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
---trey on 3/27/13


"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, Jesus was sweetly pleasing to our Father, while He was on the cross. He was sweet about it. And this is how He wants us to carry our cross . . . sharing with Him in how He on the cross was loving any and all people sweetly (c:
---willie_c: on 3/27/13


Yes. The agony of all the Sins placed upon Him. Plus, the Separation from His Father for the first and only time, for like, 3 hours, when darkness covered the Scene. YAHUSHUA always called His Father "Father", except during those hours of darkness. Then, He addressed His Father as "God". More formal, distant. His Father could not look upon His Son as His Son took on that Sin. For GOD cannot look upon Sin. So, GOD shrouded Him in Darkness.
Some of the Sufferings that YAHUSHUA experienced on the Cross are similar to those in Hell. Darkness, Thirst, full-body pain, mockings and cursings of those surrounding, God's Wrath, separation from God. etc. YAHUSHUA took our Hell on the Cross.
---Gordon on 3/27/13




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