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What Are Jehovah Witnesses

Are Jehovah's Witnesses real Christians?

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 ---John on 3/28/13
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Micha- careful, you're violating Christianet instructions.

Alternatively, you could try and say something useful and productive.
---David8318 on 4/3/13


Academic paper(s)- Marc

Highlights from Marc's report- 'Transfusion-Induced Immunomodulation' Landers et al Anesthesia-Analgesia:

"Blood transfusion therapy is associated with many risks, including major or minor blood transfusion reaction, non-A non-B hepatitis, hepatitis B, and HIV infection."

"Several studies report that allogeneic blood transfusion increases the incidence of postoperative infection. [Patients receiving]...colectomy...coronary artery bypass...hysterectomy..."

"The immunosuppressive effects of blood transfusion have been reported to be long-lasting. Women who had received transfusions as much as 4.5 yr earlier had evidence of immune suppression..."
---scott on 4/3/13


Isn't it interesting how these JW supporters always get the last word in, even when the 75 post limit has been reached? You can watch them continue to do this deceptive practice easily through the history tab in their favorites. And I am usre there are other ways. Maybe the moderator can have someone figure out a way to have this clear violation of instructions stopped. Or now maybe everyone can get the last word and a blog can go on forever.
---micha9344 on 4/3/13


Christan- you are in the embryonic stages of understanding the discussion of John 20:28. Please try to keep up.

The literal rendering of Jo.20:28 in Greek is 'the Lord of me and the God of me'. Scholars agree when 2 articles appear ('the'), points to 2 referents.

If Thomas was calling Jesus both his Lord and God, he would have said 'the Lord and God of me', or 'my Lord and God'. Thomas didn't say this. Thomas recognised Jesus was the subject of the power Jehovah God had over death (-remember Jesus had just died).

Finally believing Jesus had been the subject of Jehovah God's power of resurrection, Thomas correctly stated 'the Lord of me and the God of me' refering to both Jesus and Jehovah, rendered as 'my Lord and my God'.
---David8318 on 4/3/13


'Jesus... [post-resurrection] was NOT a spirit'- strongaxe.

Yet Peter said Jesus 'was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'-1Pe.3:18(ASV). How is it that Jesus was made alive 'in the spirit' and yet seen physically post-resurrection?

How do you suppose Lot was able to entertain angels prior to Sodom's destruction who ate with Lot and who pulled him out of that city? (Gen.19:15-17) How do you suppose the Babylonians who threw the 3 Hebrews into the furnace saw an angel protecting those 3 Hebrews? (Dan.3:24,25) Clearly, spirit beings are able to appear as human. Likewise, post-resurrection as a spirit, Jesus also had this ability.

Strongaxe, you don't honestly believe Jesus is still flesh do you?
---David8318 on 4/3/13




'Jesus, the Son of Man, was not born of Mary'- Warwick.

This is of course complete rubbish. Like a squealing rat forced into a corner, Warwick resorts to lies and misrepresentation.

But listen to Warwick's apostate, C & MA antichrist belief. Warwick says, 'I am not suggesting Jesus was only a man... He [Jesus] is equal with God'.

Warwick also believes Jesus has a 'relationship' with the God he is equal to. Clear proof again of Warwick's apostate polytheism. Trinitarian Ruben told us not so long ago that "they" are equal in nature as 'Almighty God'.

Warwick's multi-Almighty God philosophy transgrsses the mandate at Deut.28:14. Warwick is the liar and deceiver.
---David8318 on 4/3/13


I see that Scott does not respond to the lying misquote of the academic paper he cited.

So, who was it Scott, you or your masters who selectively quoted from the article, ignoring the part which said in some cases transfusions actually help recovery and inhibit cancer, in complete opposition to your dishonest statement?
---Marc on 4/2/13


David I know it goes against the JW cultic hocus pocus rules but what about trying to answer questions?

You would have us believe Jesus, the Son of Man, was not born of Mary therefore a man. Where do you get that idea? Certainly not from Scripture.

Knowing what a deceiver you are I am not suggesting Jesus was only a man, as He was also the Son of God (as was/is no other man-unique relationship) meaning He is equal with God. As Son of man He is equal to any man, and as Son of God He is equal to God.

In this light what does Hebrews 10:5 mean-'Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me,"
---Warwick on 4/2/13


"If Thomas' remark meant Jesus was both his Lord and God, he would have said 'the Lord and God of me'. But he didn't." David8318

Of course he did! "And Thomas answered and said unto him, MY LORD and MY GOD" which is as clear as anyone understanding English to be, Thomas was acknowledging Christ as his Lord and God. And that verse is from KJV.

Other translations:
"Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God! NIV
"Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." ASV
"Thomas answered him, My Lord and my God!" ESV

What hellish bible are you reading from?
---christan on 4/2/13


David8318:

What I believe is irrelevant. what you believe is irrelevant. Only what the Bible says is relevant.

After his resurrection, Jesus said in Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

That is, Jesus SPECIFICALLY said he had a body, and was NOT a spirit.
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13




'His [Jesus'] relationship with God'- Warwick.

Proof positive Warwick is a polytheist. As I thought, Warwick has one God at John 20:17 who Jesus has a 'relationship' with, and another God at 20:28 of whom Thomas addresses.

In reality, Thomas had just been convinced of Jesus' resurrection and was an eyewitness of the power God (who Jesus has a 'relationship' with) has over death- ie. his Father, Jehovah.

If Thomas' remark meant Jesus was both his Lord and God, he would have said 'the Lord and God of me'. But he didn't. Jesus was the object of Jehovah's power over death. Thomas correctly stated 'the Lord of me and the God of me'- 2 articles, 2 referents.

(Warwick, I wouldn't listen to Marc- he believes God is a man!)
---David8318 on 4/2/13


'They believe God is God'- strongaxe.

No they don't. They believe Jesus is God. And my point which you miss (perhaps avoid) is both Marc and Cluny believe Jesus (to them 'God') was "physically" resurrected and remains in the physical state.

Neither Marc nor Cluny deny this apostate blasphemy.

What is your belief strongaxe? Do you believe Jesus is now 'a spirit' or is Jesus still a physical human being?
---David8318 on 4/2/13


David8318:

You asked: Strongaxe- more to the point, what do the majority of trinitarian groups think Jesus (or God) is NOW?

This is a silly question. They believe God is God, now and always. Or did you mean something different?

There has been no denial of this blasphemous teaching.

If it were, indeed, blasphemous, then MOST Christians on earth are blasphemers, and only you few JWs aren't. Is this what you want us all to believe?
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13


"Romans 1:20"- francis

This is a reference to the Almighty God Jehovah and not his Son.
---scott on 4/2/13
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the CREATION of the world are clearly seen, being understood by THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created
Revelation 14:7 Fear God, and give glory to him, and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters

That is Jesus
---francis on 4/2/13


David8318 * The RCC Catechism states the Catholic Church is the 'sole Church of Christ'.

Does not the WTS say the same thing about them.

David8318 * If you want to believe God is a physical man, join Marc and the RCC. But there's not much salvation in that!

If you are talking about God the Son, then there is salvation in that!

" For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ " ( 1 Tim 2:5)
---Ruben on 4/2/13


God is a Spirit, God is also holy.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Peace
---TheSeg on 4/2/13


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Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God [is] one YHWH:
Mark 12:29b ... Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord:
1Cor 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord ... One God ...
Zec 14:9 And YHWH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHWH, and his name one.
Deuteronomy 10:17 For YHWH your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords ...
1Tim 6:15 ... only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,
Rev 17:14 ... the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings ...
Rev 19:16 ... KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
---micha9344 on 4/2/13


"Romans 1:20"- francis

Context my friend.

This is a reference to the Almighty God Jehovah and not his Son.

vs 1 "the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets..."

vs 7, 8 "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ...I thank my God through Jesus..."

vs 9 "God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son..."

vs 18 "The wrath of God is being revealed..."

vs 20 "God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen..."

vs 24 Therefore God gave them [the Israelites] over in the sinful desires of their hearts..."
---scott on 4/2/13


easter is celebrated Jesus Christ and how He arose from the grave.
---shira4368 on 4/2/13
Again, I could care less what you think, show me in the bible

Let me show ou easter in the bible:-Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,

This is where we get our easter traditionof hot cross buns

take time while you arte online to look it up


---scott on 4/1/13,
filled with the holy spirit YES
but not filled with Godship and eternal power, that is reserved for God only. And in comtext speak about jesu as the CREATOR

NWT: Romans 1:20 even his ETERNAL POWER AND GODSHIP,
---francis on 4/2/13


Strongaxe- more to the point, what do the majority of trinitarian groups think Jesus (or God) is NOW?

Marc and Cluny believe Jesus (or 'God') was physically resurrected as a human being and remains as such. There has been no denial of this blasphemous teaching.

You say Jesus was God in the flesh, yet when on earth Jesus said: 'God is a spirit'- Jo.4:24. So was Jesus 'flesh' or 'spirit' when on earth?

The truth is quite simple. God's Son is not the Father. The Father has always been 'spirit' even when His Son was in the flesh saying He was 'a spirit'. God's Son and the Father are seperate entities.

God's Son was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'-1Pe.3:18. God has always been spirit, never flesh.
---David8318 on 4/2/13


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"What "scriptures" did you have in mind that say that the Holy Spirit is God?" scott"

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7 - this confirms the triune God.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." John 15:26 - does this description sound like the Spirit is a "force"?

If it does, then Darth Vader must be your father.
---christan on 4/2/13


David8318:

You said: If you want to believe God is a physical man, join Marc and the RCC. But there's not much salvation in that!

Quite to the contrary. This is not specifically a RCC thing. Virtually all Christian groups (with the exception of a small few, like the Jehovah's Witnesses) DO believe that Jesus was God in the flesh (per John 1:1).
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13


David, you would have us believe Jesus, the Son of Man, was not born of Mary? Where do you get that idea? Certainly not from Scripture.

In this light what does Hebrews 10:5 mean-'Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me,"

What about John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."
---Warwick on 4/2/13


David, you JW's have the unholy trinity of Almighty God, Mighty God,(Isaiah 9:6) and a god (John 1:1) but ridicule those who believe in the Biblical Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. A little hypocritical don't you think?

In John 20:17 Jesus differentiates His God, from our God, as He alone is God with us, the exact representation of God's being, because His relationship with God has no likeness to our relationship to God.

Marc has clearly shown that in John 20:28 Thomas is addressing his comments to Jesus 'Thomas said to him (Jesus) "My Lord and my God."' There is no suggestion Thomas is speaking to two people.
---Warwick on 4/2/13


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francis, we do not do the things you accused us of doing. no part of my church has anything to do with easter eggs and candy bunnies and we don't worship the gods. easter is celebrated Jesus Christ and how He arose from the grave. you were referring your words to me but I never said anything you accused me of saying. I have never never said we worship anything except Jesus Christ risen from the tomb. I don't know what faith you are but you need to change. you really need to study other faiths so you won't be so dumb.
---shira4368 on 4/2/13


Sorry.

1. What "scriptures" did you have in mind that say that the Holy Spirit is God?
---scott on 4/1/13


'what's the additional Gospel?'- Marc.

The additional gospel is Marc's (and Cluny's) teaching that the Almighty God and creator Jesus is a physical man! Trinitarianism reduces the Almighty God to nothing but a human... like me and you! You can't get more apostate than that!

Marc complains JW's believe they have the only teaching leading to salvation. So what?! So does Marc. Marc's Catholicism declared in the Fourth Lateran Council: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation'.

The RCC Catechism states the Catholic Church is the 'sole Church of Christ'.

If you want to believe God is a physical man, join Marc and the RCC. But there's not much salvation in that!
---David8318 on 4/1/13


'[John] 20:28 recognized by others as being Ho theos- the God'- Warwick.

This is a polytheist rendering of Jo.20:28. At Jo.20:17 Jesus had already stated he was ascending to 'my God'. Thus, Warwick has one God who Jesus addresses at 20:17 and another God at 20:28 who Thomas addresses. How many God's does Warwick want!?

Scholars agree that there are 2 articles at Jo.20:28, meaning there are 2 referents- Jesus ('the Lord') and his Father Jehovah ('the God'), who had just resurrected His son. At Jo.20:17, only one article appears for the whole possessive phrase- only one referent, ie. 'the God' Jesus ascends to.

Trinitarians will wheel out their scholars who make exceptions to the rules.
---David8318 on 4/1/13


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- Christian Witnesses of Jehovah celebrate the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (NIV).

---David8318 on 3/31/13

Jesus also said:

"JOHN 5:39-40: You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is these that bear witness of Me, and you are unwilling to come to me, that you may have life .

Who did Jesus say we must come to in order to have life?

JOHN 6:45: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

We obey Jehovah by coming to Jesus.

JOHN 10:27-28: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give eternal life to them.

Jehova arrangement for life was to follow Jesus!
---Ruben on 4/1/13


The individuals can be Christians. however the organization isn't scriptural.God reads & knows the hearts of everyone in any denomination.We aren't the judges of them.We can judge the denomination, but not the individual.
---womandisciple on 4/1/13


Scott,

Since I've shown that you or your masters strategically misquote academic papers and since I've quoted from several that show transfusions in MANY cases do aid recovery, why haven't you commented?

Just another example of God's only organisation on earth not being that??
---Marc on 4/1/13


christan:

It isn't that the JW's DON'T believe - they DO believe. They just believe differently than most other Christians (and you and I, who seem to disagree on almost everything else, would probably agree on this one point - that JWs believe incorrectly).
---StrongAxe on 4/1/13


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"According to Scriptures, such [believing that the Holy Spirit is a force and not God] is known as unbelief..." christan

1. What "scriptures" did you have in mind that says that the Holy Spirit is God?

2. Where in the "scriptures" is a rejection of this notion referred to or "known as unbelief" as you have asserted?

I mean, if you're relegating David and I to the "flames" of hell, shouldn't there be at least one verse in the bible that supports your obtuse judgment of us?

Any court of law would dismiss your "case" as frivolous, unless you have come armed with substantive evidence.
---scott on 4/1/13


"The whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9 Francis (1)

Perhaps Francis is unaware that having "the fulness" of someone or something can similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. This is why the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734,

Likewise when we read at Eph. 1:22, 23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 4/1/13


"Fullness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9 Francis (2)

Trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up" "(a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23...in 3:19, of their being filled ...`with' all the fulness of God, of their being 'made full' in Him, Col. 2:10." Expository Dictionary of NT Words, p. 426

The New International Dictionary of NT Theology:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-18 is entirely related to Christ's cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, 1986, 1991
---scott on 4/1/13


/Can Marc tell us who were the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century ancestral representatives of his apostate masters of Catholicism & who believed God was a 'physical' man?/-David8318 on 4/1/13
I know the question was directed to Marc, but It seemed that everyone in that time preiod except Arius, his teacher, and his teacher's 2 other pupils were beleivers in this as prescribed by the 300+ elders that joined united against this heresy in the 4th century.
One may take a look at the writings of Justin Maryr and Irenaeus in the first/second centurioes alone.
These can be quoted, not as inspired, but as to their belief, right Scott?
---micha9344 on 4/1/13


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Warwick,Some things just don't add up with your theory!
Phil.2."Therefore God exalted him! to the highest place and gave him a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..."
If Jesus was already God he could not be exalted to a higher position!
Explain "God exalted him"
To say He exalted Himself would be ludicrous!Right?
---1st_cliff on 4/1/13


The Witnesses teach there are two ways to heaven. The 144,000 are alone born again. They will get to go to heaven. The rest are to live in the New Earth if they follow the Watch Tower.

The problem for them is that all the 144,000 are dying or already dead. So soon they will have no leaders.

While in general they teach the dead sleep in the grave. They teach the 144,000 go to heaven at death even though they are buried in the grave. So they contridict their own teachings.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/1/13


"Are Jehovah's Witnesses real Christians?" John

Let's see, according to the JWs, Jesus Christ is but a god and not God. The Holy Spirit to the JWs is but a force and not God.

According to Scriptures, such is known as unbelief and don't unbelievers go to hell?
---christan on 3/31/13


Cliff, thanks for the answer, Scott and David failed.

That Deuteronomy was written before Christ came to earth is not relevant as He, God the Son (see Colossians 1:16,17) is the Eternal Creator of everything ever created and by His power (see also Hebrews 1:3) the whole of Creation holds together. As He knows the end from the beginning the contents of Deuteronomy was no surprise to Him. Nor was John 1:1 NWT where Jesus is miscalled "a god." Therefore the contradiction stands, for the JW's who follow and serve "a god" which Deuteronomy forbids

No contradiction exists for the Trinitarian as Jesus is God Almighty, before whom we bow, and whom we worship. The JW's miscall Him "a god' and do not worship Him.
---Warwick on 3/31/13


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David: "God resurrecting his son provides us a guarantee of a future resurrection of faithful mankind"

Hey, David, what's the additional Gospel? Don't you have to be a Watchtower member, and still there's no guarantee of salvation? Do tell us, David, do you, right now, know you'll inherit eternal life and be with the Lord forever? (The silence is breathtaking!)

"What does God require of those who will reside forever upon his Paradise earth?...[We must] be associated with God's channel, his organization...Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for the guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization?" No, we cannot!" (WT, 1/15/83, p. 12,27)
---Marc on 3/31/13


---scott on 3/31/13
START CONVERTING

NWT: Colossians 2:9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily

NIV: Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

KJV: Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


KJV: Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD,

NWT: Romans 1:20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the worlds creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his ETERNAL POWER AND GODSHIP, so that they are inexcusable,
---francis on 3/31/13


Scott, as Leon says-no one can tell you anything. But I consider the following more than answer your challenge:

John
1:3 Jesus is Creator
1:3, 2:19, 11:1-44 omnipotent
1:4, 5:26 self-existent
1:15, 30: 3:31 preexistent and eternal
1: 47-49 omnipresent
2:25, 16:30, 21:17 omniscient
5:17,18 Claims God is His Father, therefore equals
5:21,22 Sovereign
5:39,40 says He is the theme of the whole OT.
8:58 Jesus claims to be God
10:28-33 His enemies acknowledge He claims to be God.
10:36-38 Claims to be the Son of God, therefore equal. And that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father- and they tried to kill Him!
20:28 recognized by others as being Ho theos- the God.
---Warwick on 4/1/13


'Jesus is... risen from the dead in His physical body'- Cluny.

JW's believe 'he didn't physically resurrect'- Marc.

Both comments found on this blog. Not much light between trinitarians Cluny and Marc. They both believe the Almighty God and creator of heaven and earth is a physical man! Can you believe that!? What a ridiculous teaching!

I know this is not the belief of all trinitarians. If trinitarianism were the truth, why is it so disunited in belief? (1Cor.1:10) Currently, it's only Cluny and Marc who are united in thought on God being 'physical'.

Can Marc tell us who were the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century ancestral representatives of his apostate masters of Catholicism & who believed God was a 'physical' man?
---David8318 on 4/1/13


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David, you are right, Trinitarians cannot make up their minds for many reasons. First it's difficult to explain in 125 words, Second, even if explained you will not belief. Third, most cults work hard to prepared better because it is their duty to trash every single passage that speaks of the incarnation of Christ to support their views. Many believers do not, they just depend on faith.
I know for a fact what happened to my sister as soon as she joined the Witnesses. She departed from her family, friends, became very prideful, made jokes about Christians, in the end died as she was commanded by her elders, refusing blood for her surgery. A tragic ending to a beautiful life she was had. I lost a sister David, have you lost a son or daughter?
---Mark_V. on 4/1/13


Apparently I can't show you anything Scott since you have predetermined to refute whatever I say from Scripture. I'd just be wasting my time trying to convince you of the truth. I don't need to win an argument. But, you need to know the truth so you can be free. I hope you don't waste all of your time on earth following error.
---Leon on 3/31/13


Adetunji- Christian Witnesses of Jehovah celebrate the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, It is his death that provides the ransom, reconciliation, forgiveness of sin and the destruction of death itself.

Christ came 'to give his life as a ransom for many'- Mt.20:28 (NIV).

'But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death'- Col.1:22 (NIV)

'so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death'- Heb.2:14 (NIV).

'everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness'- Heb.9:22 (NIV).

God resurrecting his son provides us a guarantee of a future resurrection of faithful mankind- Acts 17:31.
---David8318 on 3/31/13


"Blood transfusion may result in immunologic changes beneficial in some patients, harmful in others...Opelz and Terasaki's study "showed a 1 yr graft survival rate of 42% in patients who hadn't received prior transfusions and 71% in patients who had received more than 20. At 4 Yr graft survival rates were 30% without and 65% with. Other prospective studies confirmed the earlier results with a I-yr graft survival rate of 87% in transfused and 32% in nontransfused patients. Patients who receive transfusions of three units or less of packed red blood cells have a reduced recurrence rate and increased length of survival after cancer surgery." 'Blood Transfusion-Induced Immunomodulation' Landers et al Anesthesia-Analgesia, 1996.
---Marc on 3/31/13


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"The JW Jesus...is not an eternal member of the Godhead." Leon

Show me in the "Judeo-Christian Bible" the verse that describes Jesus as an "eternal member of the Godhead" and I will convert to whatever brand of "Christianity" that you adhere to...or perhaps return to the Baptists = )

If you can't produce this then I would prefer to stick to the scriptural identification of Jesus Christ (Son of God, the lamb that takes away the sin of the world, Messiah, etc.,) rather than the extra-biblical one that you have suggested.
---scott on 3/31/13


StrongAxe://They . believe .. more incorrect things about him and his teachings than the . Christian (and NO Christian is 100% perfect anyway).// Our differences is more than you've stated. They have a different spirit behind their movement. Scott & David8316 were busy on a recent blog celebrating only the death of Jesus but not His resurrection, why?
---Adetunji on 3/31/13


---shira4368 on 3/30/13
Are you for real?
Easter comes the first sunday after the first full moon in the spring. It is a celebration of queen of heaven, that is why it is celebrated with hot cross buns, eggs, and bunnies.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,

Passover, the real time when Jesus died and rose, comes 14 days after the NEW MOON
Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
---francis on 3/31/13


Nikki//They think they are Christians.

---

They really need to heed the scripture that tells us to make sure we are in the faith.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

They believing themselves to be Christians hold that there is a final judgment that would either qualify them or disqualify them for heaven based upon how well they observed the 10 commandments.

Grace to these apostates is nothing more than something that would enable them to obey God's laws and thus merit eternal life.
---e.lee7537 on 3/31/13


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Trinitarians cannot make their minds up as to who Jesus is- physical or spirit? Some trinitarians believe Jesus is the Almighty creator and yet is now a physical man! Unbelievable!

As a physical man, how do trinitarians suppose God sustains his flesh and blood body in heaven? Do trinitarians believe God needs food, air and water to sustain himself? The very notion is ridiculous (1Cor.15:50).

Christians believe what scripture states, that God's Son was not God, but was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'- 1Pe.3:18 ASV.

Jesus is not God. God has always been 'a spirit' and never flesh- Jo.4:24. Jesus was resurrected 'in the spirit', back to the same glory he 'had before the world was'- Jo.17:5.
---David8318 on 3/31/13


Warwick,Deuteronomy was written some 1500 years before Christ came to earth.
After the death and resurrection the Father rewarded the Son, to whom He said "every knee would bow"
and gave him a position higher than He had before including the right to be worshipped as King of the Kingdom!
Where's the contradiction???
New things happen!Try to keep abreast of the times!
---1st_cliff on 3/31/13


They think they are Christians.
---Nikki on 3/30/13


francis, show me in the bible we aren't allowed to celebrate our risen Saviour. are we allowed to celebrate birthdays? then why do we even get together at all. is that in the bible? is your computer in the bible? you sure use it a lot. is your cell phone in the bible? your argument is null and void.
---shira4368 on 3/30/13


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Francis//1: Where in the bible do baptist get the Idea that any day other the the 7 this the Sabbath.

While having been a Baptist once upon a time, I suggest your answers really lie in the fact that Baptist believe that they are under the auspices of the New Covenant which does not restrict what one may eat or what day one must observe.

And sorry but your view that what was commanded ONLY to the nation of Israel was placed onto believers heart is just a lot of phooie on your part. All you have to support your unique views is the ranting of an old woman who could only peep and mutter when she was not copying from the works of others. Isaiah 8:19
---e.lee7537 on 3/30/13


"...Christians are people who follow Christ. JW's do, so they are Christians.

They don't reject Jesus. They just disagree with most other Christians about exactly who he is. They believe he's the Son of God (and also Michael), but not God himself."
---StrongAxe on 3/29/13


'Axe: Which Christ do they follow? There are religious adherents who seek a christ consciousness. they aren't Christians.

The Holy Scripture (Bible) tells us who Jesus is. The JW Jesus is a created being, arch-angel & he is not an eternal member of the Godhead. He IS NOT the Son of God written of in the Judeo-Christian Bible! No sir ~ JWs are not Christians!
---Leon on 3/30/13


I have posed a few questions to Scott and David which have gone unanswered. Maybe another JW is more up to it?

Reading only from the NWT we see.

Deuteronomy 28:14 says you must not "walk after other gods to serve them." But Jesus is called "a god" in John 1:1! And Colossians 3:24 says you must "Slave" for the Lord Jesus.

How do you reconcile the obvious, and serious, contradiction in that you, on the one hand must not serve any god, but you serve Jesus who you call a god?
---Warwick on 3/30/13


David is deluded.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/30/13


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scott:

"It's permitted or not" and "it's healthy or not" are two totally different issues.

The Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions because they believe the Bible prohibits it. Attempting to further justify this by saying it's unhealthy is merely an attempt to rationalize things after the fact. If they truly believe the Bible prohibits it, it should require no further justification at all.


Adetunji:

The JW's DO follow Jesus. They just believe a lot more incorrect things about him and his teachings than the average Christian (and NO Christian is 100% perfect anyway).
---StrongAxe on 3/30/13


John, the Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian. They are outside Christianity. So they are a cult. The Jesus they believe in is not the Jesus of Scripture. They study passages to attack the Person of Jesus Christ in His humanity to contradict His Divine nature. Their Jesus is an angel equal to satan.
Their own Charter says, the worship of Jesus Christ, and now they say they do not worship Jesus, contradicting their own charter.
---Mark_V. on 3/31/13


Motoyama / Transfusion / Cancer- Marc (1)

In his haste to malign all things JW, Marc misses the point.

On the "Did Jesus come invisibly" thread I stated "...many [are] unaware of the genuine, medical health risks associated with transfused blood."

Whether autologous or allogeneic, Motoyama acknowledges that "There is increasing evidence that blood transfusions may result in transfusion-induced immunosuppression, which in turn leads to increased rates of cancer recurrence and death."

Autologous vs Allogeneic-

1. Many patients have "to be transfused with allogeneic blood to supplement an insufficient number of autologous units collected or...

Continued
---scott on 3/30/13


Motoyama / Transfusion / Cancer- Marc (2)

Continued-

"...as a response to unforeseen and unexpected bleeding during the surgical procedure...and [because of] logistical constraints..." And "[some] patients are screened out because they may not meet minimum criteria of safety for the autologous blood deposit..." Lichtiger, MD, PhD, and Yang Huh, MD

2. In certain cases, some studies suggest autologous blood is not safer than allogeneic.

"Autologous blood transfusions lead to worse long term prognosis in colorectal cancer." Harlaar, Joris J. MD, Gosselink, Martijn P. MD, PhD, Hop, Wim C. J. PhD, Lange, Johan F. MD, PhD, Busch, Olivier R. C. MD, PhD, Jeekel, Hans MD, PhD.
---scott on 3/30/13


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Scott misrepresenting Motoyama's 'Surgery Today' 2002 article: "blood transfusion is associated with an increased rate of tumor recurrence."

What it REALLY said was, "This study was conducted to assess the survival advantage of giving autologous blood instead of allogeneic blood during surgery for esophageal cancer...The findings of our study suggest that patients given autologous blood transfusions for esophageal cancer have a significant survival advantage over those given allogeneic transfusions."

That is, in ONE particular type of cancer, you survive better transfusing your own blood (autologous) over someone else's (allogeneic). Scott, you either regurgitate your masters' lying message or you're the liar.
---Marc on 3/30/13


There is inconsistency in trinitarian belief. Amusingly, some trinitarians believe Jesus was resurrected physically and remains a flesh and blood man, others believe 'in the spirit' as a spirit being.

Christ was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'- 1Pe.3:18 (ASV).

Jesus said in prayer, 'And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began'- Jo.17:5.

Jesus was a spirit being before he 'became flesh' here on earth. He "had" what he didn't have as a human.

Afterall, don't trinitarians believe Jesus is God? So is 'God' a human being or is he 'a spirit'? (Jo.4:24)
---David8318 on 3/30/13


-shira4368 on 3/29/13
8: Where in the bible do baptist get the idea that we can use pagan feast in origin like easter and christmas to worship the Holy God
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee, and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
---francis on 3/30/13


---shira4368 on 3/29/13
1: Where in the bible do baptist get the Idea that any day other the the 7 this the Sabbath

2: Where in the bible do Baptist get the idea that they can eat anything other than what God has sanctified for
food

3: where in the bible do baptist get the idea that at the moment of death the soul goes to be with God

4: Where in the bible do baptist get the idea of wedding rings

5: where do baptist get the idea that the churches are independent when the NT is made up of letters of the apostles showing authority of all the congregations

6: Where in the bible do baptist get 7 year tribulation

7: why do you have different doctrines in different baptist church? start with this one
---francis on 3/30/13


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Scott/David,

Care to inform all of us who were the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century ancestral representatives of JWism? Surely if your heresy really isn't one and existed right at the beginning of the Church then there should be heaps and heaps of evidence for its being the belief of the primitive Church, you know, that Jesus was Michael, an angel who created the universe and that he didn't physically resurrect etc etc etc.
---Marc on 3/30/13


Leon:

You said: In the matter of who they claim Jesus is, don't the JWs believe he's the Arch Angel Michael? If that is what they believe they aren't Christians.

Christians are people who follow Christ. JW's do, so they are Christians.

They don't reject Jesus. They just disagree with most other Christians about exactly who he is. They believe he's the Son of God (and also Michael), but not God himself.
---StrongAxe on 3/29/13


francis, what do you want to know about Baptist? I will answer any question you may have. I do think we have hashed it over already. you believe you are perfect and I believe we are just sinners saved by grace. we don't depend on works to save us. we are born of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the only Son of God, there is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. we believe in dressing conservatively, we believe in Godly music. what else, just ask.
---shira4368 on 3/29/13


Are Jehovah's Witnesses real Christians?
---John on 3/28/13
I have the same questions about American Congregationalist
Anglican
Baptist
Brethren
Catholic
Christian Church
Church of Christ
Church of England
Congregational
Disciples of Christ
Episcopalian
Lutheran
Lutheran Free Church
Methodist
Mornams
Penticostals
Presbyterian
Protestant Episcopal
Southern Baptist

---francis on 3/29/13


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In the matter of who they claim Jesus is, don't the JWs believe he's the Arch Angel Michael? If that is what they believe they aren't Christians.
---Leon on 3/29/13


How do you define "real" Christians?
If you're not
my" religion you're not a real Christian,is the mental state of Evangelical Fundamentalists who disagree vehemently even among themselves.
Any bible but the KJV is a false bible, they say, Yet the KJV is rife with mistakes!
We are all striving for God's mercy,while not extending kindness to other fellow learners! Truth
is learned through education, not by spooks in the night!
There cannot be opposing views and both be right!
We need common ground!
---1st_cliff on 3/29/13


35 years ago I resigned my position and all ties with the WBTS and for that I was excommunicated (disfellowshipped they call it)
For all those years they have not "forgiven" me for leaving including two brothers a son and daughter!
Which reinforces my belief that they are not following scripture but the dictates of the "Society" Individually they are not "seeking the Kingdom" but obeying men!
Fear and not love is the motivator!
1Cor.13.4 Love is longsuffering and kind..does not brag..does not become provoked..does not keep account of injury...13.now however,there remain faith,hope and love..the greatest of these is love. NWT
---1st_cliff on 3/29/13


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