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Secular Civil Power Marriage

The two recent threads on marrying a 70 year old and DOMA together bring a serious questions I'm going to ask here.

Where in the Bible did God give the secular civil power the right to regulate marriage? This was NOT the practice at the time the Bible was written.

Any answers?

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ROMANS 13:1 - LET every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. and those that have been instituted by God. { ESV }

1 PETER 2:13 - SUBMIT yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord sake, whether it be to the king, as supreme, { KJB }
---RICHARDC on 4/16/13


Cluny on 4/3/13 said: Wrong.

Ancient Romans and Greeks had marriage ceremonies presided over by the person authorized to do so. So do Buddhists and Hindus to this day.


Could you provide authorized information on that please regarding the ancient Romans and Greeks?

It's an idea of mine that only the wealthy would for legal, political reasons, slaves didn't have that luxury. And there were more slaves than wealthy. So my statement was regarding the larger group. Forgive me that I didn't specify that.

I can accept that Buddists and Hindus had some kind of ceremony but I was refering to those who were secular.
---jan4378 on 4/15/13


- free marriage
mind your own business ---> arrangement ---> betrothal ---> wedding feast ---> consummation ---> marriage
bound by each other and God's terms
---aka on 4/10/13

Good bullet points. A couple below of scriptural significance.
Jer 31:4
Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:....
Isa 62:5 ....as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Eze 16:8
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love, and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
---Trav on 4/11/13


- legal marriage -

frilly feelings ---> dating ---> engagement ---> wedding ---> marriage (insert consummation anywhere in there)

bound by the law and man's terms

- free marriage -

mind your own business ---> arrangement ---> betrothal ---> wedding feast ---> consummation ---> marriage

bound by each other and God's terms
---aka on 4/10/13


Most do not realize the absolute truth that there is in this post.
.i love your bbqs.
---aka on 4/9/13 GOD provides the meat. i'm just a server. Sure satisfying to find someone to dine with. Have a glass of wine brother, i'll partake with you.
Isa 50:1
Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 62:4
Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken, neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
---Trav on 4/10/13




---Trav on 4/8/13

Most do not realize the absolute truth that there is in this post.

OT-NT ... the witness ... the truth ... the message ... the marriage and remarriage.

here is a post that actually means something.

i love your bbqs.
---aka on 4/9/13


I admit I know little of the history of marriage. We also seem to have little knowledge about the ceremonies for marriage.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/2/13

I admit the same the first 40yrs of my life. It is amazing though how the modern doctrines avoid what is clearly stated in scripture. There allegory attached to the scriptures by marriage, divorce and remarriage.
It becomes apparent at a point why the false preachers avoid the subject. Having no sight and only fear they cannot find, neither seeking or knocking.
Jer 3:14. GOD was married.
Search the concordance for ,wife,married, betrothed, divorce. Marriage and the New Covenant will be more fully understood through this re-marriage.
---Trav on 4/8/13


cluny I have answered your question several times already. you just don't know how to read. you keep harping on sodomy not in the bible and I know it is so YOU prove its NOT in there.
---shira4368 on 4/6/13


\\cluny, you just never let up do you? I ain't gonna look up nothing for you. look it up yourself. just go away.
---shira4368 on 4/5/13\\

In other words, shira, you cannot answer my question.

Just admit it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/5/13


The piece of paper is what is used in our society to make the announcement public.

What is required for a marriage is 1: Making the intention to be exclusive public and 2: sharing a bed

In some cultures, especially in ancient biblical times, the announcement was made at the wedding feast. In modern times, the announcement is made in the public record( piece of paper)

The marriage does not take place at the alter before the minister or at the bench in front the judge, but in the bedroom.

That is why God has strong warning against fornication, and stronger warning against adultery

Exodus 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

---francis on 4/5/13




cluny, you just never let up do you? I ain't gonna look up nothing for you. look it up yourself. just go away.
---shira4368 on 4/5/13


\\I've heard some say the only thing between marriage and just living together is a piece of paper but it is more than that.
---shira4368 on 4/4/13\\

I won't disagree with that, shira.

Now, can you please tell me what the difference is according to the Bible? Give book, chapter, and verse in your answer.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/5/13


nikki, God ordained marriage. He made adam and eve for each other. God put them together.--shira4368 on 4/4/13

Yes, that's why the RCC states Marriage is a Sacrament. Meaning it is God who acts. So no one can change it.

God created everyone.
All pagans have some type of ceremonial for marriage.
---Nikki on 4/5/13


nikki, God ordained marriage. He made adam and eve for each other. God put them together. God talks about husbands and wives. that makes me know if a couple live together, they should be married. look at the woman at the well. she had many husbands and the one she was living with was not her husband. I've heard some say the only thing between marriage and just living together is a piece of paper but it is more than that.
---shira4368 on 4/4/13


Marriage as an institution of law came from the Bible.-jan4378 on 4/2/13

How were Adam And Eve married?
---micha9344 on 4/3/13

You are GOOD!
I can't wait for the answer.
---Nikki on 4/3/13


/Does the fact that "Christian" marriages have the same success (or failure) rate as secular unions give you a hint?/-aka on 4/3/13
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
1Cor 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
They are like the world and do not heed the Word of God.
---micha9344 on 4/3/13


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\Marriage as an institution of law came from the Bible. Pagans did not marry, they mutually cohabitated as a couple agreement, not by a legal pronouncement by a third party.\-jan4378 on 4/2/13
How were Adam And Eve married?
---micha9344 on 4/3/13


\\ Pagans did not marry, they mutually cohabitated as a couple agreement, not by a legal pronouncement by a third party.\\

Wrong.

Ancient Romans and Greeks had marriage ceremonies presided over by the person authorized to do so. So do Buddhists and Hindus to this day.

**Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife,**

If this is to be taken literally, then Isaac was never married, as he did NOT leave his father Abraham but dwelt in the family tents.

The same could be said about many other men at this time.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/13


Does the fact that "Christian" marriages have the same success (or failure) rate as secular unions give you a hint?
---aka on 4/3/13


I think when a couple become one flesh with the intention of staying together, this is marriage.---willie_c:on 4/2/13

And to make it pulicly ( via feast or public record)known that they are one flesh and are together. I agree
---francis on 4/3/13


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Where in the Bible did God give the secular civil power the right to regulate marriage? This was NOT the practice at the time the Bible was written. Any answers?

Marriage as an institution of law came from the Bible. Pagans did not marry, they mutually cohabitated as a couple agreement, not by a legal pronouncement by a third party. They took that right like they take rights to every part of their lives, by freewill choice.

However, when pagans began to get saved, then the apostle Paul taught about Biblical marriage.

Nowadays, we see a resurgence of civil marriage that does not involve Biblical standards, again by freewill choice.
---jan4378 on 4/2/13


The Roman Catholic church has for centuries refused to recognize the marriage of those not of their communion. --e.lee7537 on 4/1/13

You come up with many errors about the RCC.
RCC recognizes 2 Sacraments in the other Churches. Baptism and Marriage. In fact it is only Marriage that is recognized in other religions.

As for your bartender friend who was married 4 times. The only question is about the 1st marriage. Not the 2nd and 3rd.
If they found out (by your friend and his ex-wife answering questions) the 1st marriage wasn't valid, then he was able to marry the 4th lady who the RCC sees as their 1st marriage. Not because the 4th lady was Catholic.
He is pulling your leg.
---Nikki on 4/3/13


I think when a couple become one flesh with the intention of staying together, this is marriage.---willie_c:on 4/2/13

Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"Joined to his wife. How are they joined? The context tells us the man said "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh" and this is how they are joined. Not through some words or a written document, through the joining of flesh.---Mark_Eatonon 4/2/13

Exactly.
---aka on 4/2/13


This makes those of us who were married by a judge sound "less married"! My husband and I were married by a judge and it's no less legal although I would someday like to renew my vows in church. :)
---Mary on 4/2/13


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Jed:

You said: Jewish religious leaders performed marriages in the Old Testament,

Can you cite even a single instance in the Old Testament when ANYONE (religious leader or otherwise) married two people? The Bible frequently mentions men marrying, women being given in marriage, women being in the state of marriage, marriage feasts, etc. - but it never once mentions any kind of marriage ceremony, or rite of marriage, or anyone actually performing such. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong, but if I am, please cite chapter and verse where this ever happened.
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13


Once christians started to place God's law into categories like: "for israel Only," it them open the doors for secular civil power to say that these laws are for followers of God only

My question would be to those who oppose same gender marriage: WHY?

Why it is that you who vow to follow God are not bound by Laws but by grace, try to place others who do not desire to follow God "under the law?"

Why can't grace extend to christians who wish to live in same gender marriage, and not wish to be " under the law?"
---francis on 4/2/13


I admit I know little of the history of marriage. We also seem to have little knowledge about the ceremonies for marriage.

However, we do know that marriage is discussed very early in the Bible.

Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"

Joined to his wife. How are they joined? The context tells us the man said "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh" and this is how they are joined. Not through some words or a written document, through the joining of flesh.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/2/13


Jed:

You said: In all of human history, until recent centuries, marriages have always been performed and established by the Church

Perhaps it would interest you to know that church involvement in marriage didn't actually become commonplace until the 12th century? So, for the MAJORITY of time that Christianity has been around, marriages were arranged OUTSIDE of Church control!
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13


StrongAxe, I was not talking about any particular church. Jewish religious leaders performed marriages in the Old Testament, long before the 12th century that you speak of. The fact, marriage is a religious institution, not a civil one.
---Jed on 4/2/13


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Jed:

You said: In all of human history, until recent centuries, marriages have always been performed and established by the Church

Perhaps it would interest you to know that church involvement in marriage didn't actually become commonplace until the 12th century? So, for the MAJORITY of time that Christianity has been around, marriages were arranged OUTSIDE of Church control!
---StrongAxe on 4/2/13


Adam and Eve were man and wife, simply because God put them together. And their becoming "one flesh" made them man and his wife.

I would say Jews who loved their wives did not consider them to be just like an ox or whatever. When the Jews lost their wives and children to the Amalekites, they "wept, until they had no more power to weep" (in 1 Samuel 30:4) . . . not how you would react about losing a goat or camel, I "think".

And Abigail helping David was smarter than he was (1 Samuel 25). I "hope" David was smarter than an ox (c:

So . . . Lee . . . I think when a couple become one flesh with the intention of staying together, this is marriage.
---willie_c: on 4/2/13


\\. In all of human history, until recent centuries, marriages have always been performed and established by the Church,\\

Does this apply to non-Christian countries and adherents of non-Christian religions as well? Did the Church perform and establish THEIR marriages, too?

I don't think you've thought through this well, Jed.
---Cluny on 4/1/13


Yes this applies to non-christian religions as well. Marriages were performed and established by their religious leaders as well. Marriage has always been a religious matter, not a civil matter.
---Jed on 4/2/13


Historically God has never been involved in the marriage process it was arranged and secular tribal prior to Christianity. The Jews developed procedure for writ of divorce where a Jewish husband could divorce a wife for any reason if he folded the ret correctly but a woman could never divorce a husband because she was legally his property just as an ox, camel or donkey. The husband had to present the writ of divorce to his wife in the presence of two male Jewish witnesses and the marriage was over and she did not get her dowry back. Christianity introduced monogamy and I do not know any evidence of clergy being involved in marriage ceremonies until after the time of Constantine even in Jewish ceremonies.
---Blogger9211 on 4/1/13


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It isn't a matter of what rights and powers the Bible grants to civil authorities - because, for the most part, civil authorities are not subject to the Bible's permission. They legislate laws, and appropriate powers that they deem appropriate. They don't ask for God's permission.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/13


\\. In all of human history, until recent centuries, marriages have always been performed and established by the Church,\\

Does this apply to non-Christian countries and adherents of non-Christian religions as well? Did the Church perform and establish THEIR marriages, too?

I don't think you've thought through this well, Jed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/1/13


Cluny, I think I get what you are trying to say and you are correct. Marriage is not a civil institution, it's a religious institution. The government is guilty of mixing religion and government when they try to govern religious institutions such as marriage. In all of human history, until recent centuries, marriages have always been performed and established by the Church, not government. Government needs to get out of the Church's business.
---Jed on 4/1/13


The Roman Catholic church has for centuries refused to recognize the marriage of those not of their communion. In fact, if a couple converted to Catholicism, they had to endure another marriage ceremony performed by the RCC.

Once knew a bartender that was married 3 times but on his 4th marriage to a Roman Catholic woman, the Church decreed that his previous marriages were illegitimate.

The question I would ask is what constitutes a marriage? A ceremony performed by a church or the simple vows a couple would make to each other?
---e.lee7537 on 4/1/13


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Paul says the secular authority person "is God's minister to you for good", in Romans 13.

I consider that the present things of government involvement, though, have mainly to do with controlling what happens to money that is involved.

Gay relationship supporters include their desire to have money legally available to a surviving partner. So, it is not only about "marriage" being regulated.

"Don't open a can of worms unless you are a birdbrain."
---willie_c: on 4/1/13


If I'm not mistaken, civil statutes pertaining to marriage appeared for the first time in Europe after the French Revolution.
---Love.wins on 3/31/13


"Where in the Bible did God give the secular civil power the right to regulate marriage?" He did not.
---Josef on 4/1/13


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