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Rapture Second Coming

The "Parousia" is the Second Coming of CHRIST. And, the "Harpazo" is a different Coming of Christ, the Rapture of the Bride. Are the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ the very same thing?

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 ---Gordon on 4/2/13
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Jan, you did not mentioned Gordon in your answer. You just made a comment, and I was talking about the Word "Coming" of Christ. The word in both passages (1 Thess. 4:15-17) and (2 Thess. 2:1-3) is the word "coming" of the Lord or "coming of Christ" and the word is Parousia. I'm never in a hurry to answer you just because I disagree on Gibberish speaking, you are taking this topic personal. If someone else had posted I would have answered to them, but this time it was you.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


Steven 2: Nowhere in Scripture are we told that only if we wish to follow him. If you are a sheep you will follow Him. There is no maybe, or if you want to. You will be submissive to Christ if you are saved, if you are not you will not follow Him. There is no "if you want to" once your are saved,
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Not if you want to, you were created already for that cause. It is not up to you, but up to God.
So stop taking credit, for Jesus said, without me you can do nothing. Zero.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


Steveng, you say,
" He wants those who choose to follow him, having a free will, for it is written to knock and it shall be open, ask and you shall receive."
(Matt. 7:7) is speaking of those who are believers already, His Children in this case the disciples. Not unbelievers. For the next passage explains it,
about an earthly father giving their sons when in need, Will not God give to His sons what they ask (v. 7,8: James 1:17)? "If you then 'being evil' know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him"
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


To Mark_V. on 4/3/13

Thank you for your little (how be it, unnessaray) lesson. But I didn't address you in my post, neither hadn't I and still haven't read your post, I was directly answering Gordon's OP.

You seem to be in such a hurry to teach me that you aren't paying attention to well. Perhaps you should work on that a bit.
---jan4378 on 4/15/13


\\Enoch, Elijah were harpazo'd. Jesus was harpazo'd.\\

Wrong.

Jesus ascended to heaven by His own power as God. He was not "caught up." Read the Greek. HARPAZO is not used for this.


I agree that it is different. Jesus did go up on his own power.

I took a liberty regarding the action itself in general terms. You might say that I got carried away in using the word harpazoed.

Thanks for the correction "that's wrong" Cluny.
---jan4378 on 4/15/13




Markv, I believe God can save anyone. That is why we go to witness to people. Many don't hear the gospel but if salvation is as you say we just wouldn't need to witness. Missionaries go to other countries and many do without daily needs. We have sent toothpaste deodorant and soap to missionaries because they are on a mission to win souls. Wonder if they are wasting their time.
---shira4368 on 4/14/13


God does not want zombies to follow him. He wants those who choose to follow him, having a free will, for it is written to knock and it shall be open, ask and you shall receive.

As for the elect, these are christians (as compared to the ones who think they are christians but arE not) who are counted worthy to do God's will. They are chosen by God as worthy, having a true love within and showing it to the world, just as he did to Noah, Moses, the Israelites, and all the other godly people mentioned in scripture. they were all chosen, are you?
---Steveng on 4/14/13


One is sealed if they do not return to the worldly ways of sin. If one is sealed one can surely backslide. Many warnings about backsliding is written in scripture.

As for the gathering together, it is not necessary to come together in a denominational church for it is written that where two or more are gathered in Juses' name there shall he be whether it is on the street corner, at the local cafe, or in one's home.

Satan has successfully divided christiandom up into tens of thousands of cults (denominational churches) each having their own rituals, traditions, ways of living and interpretations of scripture and having christians who think they are christians but are not.
---Steveng on 4/14/13


Shira, do you not believe that God can save anyone He wants? He gives them His Word, the gospel of our salvation, He gives us the faith to belief, He grants us repentance. He opens our eyes and ears. He give us a new heart, He brings us to spiritual life.
Man does none of those things. God does them all. Without the gospel of Jesus people continue to hell. If God didn't want to bring the gospel to you, you would not be saved. If He didn't change your heart, you would still be the same person you were before. God can save whom ever He wants to give mercy to. There is nothing God cannot do. Or you not happy He chose you? I am happy He chose you and me.
---Mark_V. on 4/14/13


You r so so wrong and u can't see it. Do u honestly think Christ died for the ones fore chosen by God? Now God knows the future so he may already know who will be saved but He did not hand pick a few for the Kingdom of God.
---shira4368 on 4/13/13




Shira 2: you say,
"After all our fate is sealed according to you." Not according to me but according to God,
"And He (God) made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwelling." (Acts 17:26)
Then say,
" Why do you attend church?" The Spirit convicts me to worship together with my brothers and sisters. If the Spirit was not in me, I would be going out partying for my pleasure and not for God. Why have missionaries to go thru things for Christ" Because all of the elect are born in the sin of Adam. In order for them to be saved, they need the gospel truth.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13


Shira, the elect were those chosen from the foundation of the world to be God's children. When they are born they are born with a fallen sin nature. At the time God wants to save them, He makes everything possible for them, by bringing the gospel in power and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance. The elect are all over the world lost. They need the gospel Truth for faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The passages in (2 Peter 3:9) concerning the beloved, who are the elect,
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, (promises are for believers) as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13


Markv... The elect is all those who choose not to reject Christ. The blog that we were on concerning the elect is full. I do know about the elect and again Christ did not die on the cross for a few of the "elect". If what you say is true, why r you on a Christian blog trying to feed your doctrine to others. After all our fate is sealed according to you. Why do you attend church? Why do we have missionaries to go thru things for Christ that would be unbearable for others? Why did you listen to a preacher when you got saved?
---Shira4368 on 4/12/13


Mark V, When you understand what the Rapture is, then you'll know what the Scriptures mean when They use the word "descend", as in "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven..." It's saying that YAHUSHUA shall descend, or come down from Above, from the Third Heaven above, and He shall come down towards Earth, and He shall stop at mid-air to call up His Bride to Himself, to be with Him Forevermore. For, it says further, "Then we which are alive...shall be CAUGHT UP together...in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR." I THESSALONIANS 4:17. It's NOT a "Second Coming" as in Him coming down ONTO the Earth to reign. Again, you're labeling as a "Second Coming" that which is NOT a Second Coming.
---Gordon on 4/12/13


Gordon, You spoke of two Second Comings. One secret and one visible. Don't they make two? "Dos"
Then say,
" It is YOUR OWN DOUBTS AND UNBELIEF about the Rapture, of which I speak, that causes you to refer to the Rapture as a "Second Coming"." Concerning what you call rapture:

" For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the "Coming of the Lord" shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess. 4:15-17). You deny His coming, and the Bible says your wrong.
---Mark_V. on 4/12/13


Gordon 2: you say,
" He will NOT set Foot on Earth. He will be mid-air calling His Bride UP TO Him. So, get it straight. Even if you continue to disagree with the Rapture, STOP calling it a "Second Coming". It's only showing you as INEPT."
His coming is in (1 Thess. 4:15-17) but you say He came but did not touch the earth, that is why He didn't come. You have an anti-christ bigger then all the other anti-christ. Then have believers without faith staying behind because they were not worthy to be the bride. And you say I'm showing my INEPT. I cannot wait until you say that after the rapture, many will have a second chance. Or that there is two Churchs of Christ, one before the rapture and one after.
---Mark_V. on 4/12/13


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Mark V, I've told you several times, there will not be "Two Second Comings". I have never said that there will be two Second Comings! It is YOUR OWN DOUBTS AND UNBELIEF about the Rapture, of which I speak, that causes you to refer to the Rapture as a "Second Coming". The Rapture is NOT a "Second Coming". What a Second Coming IS, Mark V, is when King YAHUSHUA literally sets foot on Earth to begin His Kingdom Reign on Earth. That will only happen ONCE! Whereas, in the Rapture, He will NOT set Foot on Earth. He will be mid-air calling His Bride UP TO Him. So, get it straight. Even if you continue to disagree with the Rapture, STOP calling it a "Second Coming". It's only showing you as INEPT, Mark. Seriously.
---Gordon on 4/11/13


Gordon, you present a salvation of works the reason you can amen Nana, who teaches the same teachings.
First, you say, there is two Second Comings, then there is One bigger Anti-christ then all the anti-christ in the world, then believers with no fruits are cut off and other believers become the bride because they are more worthy to become the bride. I don't know where it will all end. You could not get one topic "the Second Coming" correct, how can you get anything else correct. Is not Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life? He gives life to all things. The branch cannot live without the vine. Who then are the unbelievers? Are they different branches from different vines? Are the the dirt? How about the bugs on the branches? Hello?
---Mark_V. on 4/11/13


Nana, Thank you kindly for your reiteration on this subject. There is no way that anyone who is unsaved could be a branch on the Vine, Who we know as YAHUSHUA (JESUS). And, it's saying in these Verses of JOHN 15:1-15, that the branches are there, on the Vine, for producing Good Fruits. Just like if you were to grow a grape vine, a vineyard. You expect there, eventually, to be fruits at some point. Otherwise it's pointless to even have a vineyard. Unless for "show" only? And, yes, as you pointed out, there are Gentile branches graffed in. So, only Saved people can be a branch on the Vine of YAHUSHUA. Yet, some are dried up, the Scriptures say, and cast into the Fire (Hell).
---Gordon on 4/10/13


"for the workman is worthy of his meat."
"inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till ye go thence."
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance"


Ephesians 4:1 "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,"
Why so?
Romans 1:32 "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
---Nana on 4/10/13


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Mark V, The branches, the Believers, (for only Believers can even be apart of the Vine YAHUSHUA), the Believers that do not produce fruit, and if they continue being fruitless, are dried up and then are "cast into the Fire". That is, Hell. The fruitless branches are not only cut off, (separated from YAHUSHUA, the Vine), but, they are, in the end, cast into the Fire. the Fire of Hell. This goes against OSAS, but, this is what YAHUSHUA Himself says in the Holy Bible. And, YAHUSHUA has made it crystal clear about what happens to fruitless branches. And, those Fires are not a "purging" or "renewing" Fire. It says nothing about a renewal in this Verse. The casting into the Fire is the dried branches final destination.
---Gordon on 4/10/13


Gordon, said:
"And, it's those who produce good works faithfully, in obedience who will be more worthy of being a part of the Bride. Not the compromising, fruitless ones. They'll be left behind. EVERY BRANCH ON THE VINE IS A BELIEVER"
You say, "will be more worthy" implying by their works they become the bride. Salvation by works.
Jesus is the vine that gives life. The branch that does not produce is cut down. Branches are human beings. If all were saved, all would have faith,

"For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves," it is a gift of God, "not of works" lests anyone should boast" You have guys boasting for their works.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/13


Nana, you have nothing better to offer so you say,

"Mark_V. keep to yourself, not interested in what MacArthur says"

I am keeping to myself, I am not interested in John MacAthur's theory. He is a dispensationalist, he believes in the Rapture like most here. He is great but not in every subject. Many teachers of the Rapture are great also, just not in the subject of Revelation or Daniel 9:27 or the antichrist. In fact most theologians believe the Antichrist is the Pope, and the apostasy Church is the RCC.
---Mark_V. on 4/10/13


Gordon,

I agree also that all branches are believers. And as said elsewhere, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
Paul says, there be natural and there be graffed branches and he adds, "Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Peter describes the path and duty of the believer which guarantee fruit-2 Peter 1- guarantee "ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful".

Mark_V. keep to yourself, not interested in what MacArthur says.
---Nana on 4/9/13


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Mark V, OOPS! My bad. I meant 15, I forgot the 5 in 15. We are to be producing good works! But NOT for Salvation, for one is already Saved! But, they're to be good works as a RESULT of being Saved. And, it's those who produce good works faithfully, in obedience who will be more worthy of being a part of the Bride. Not the compromising, fruitless ones. They'll be left behind. EVERY BRANCH ON THE VINE IS A BELIEVER. A pagan, heathen non-believer would not even be a branch on YAHUSHUA the Vine in the first place. Only Believers can be called branches on that Vine. And, if these branches do not produce good fruits, they get lopped off by the Father, and cast into the fire.
---Gordon on 4/9/13


Gordon, let me correct you. (John 1:1-15) does not speak of the vine. It says that those who are born of God believed.
The passage you are talking about is (John 15:1-15) and here you are assuming the branches are all believers. But you are wrong. Only those who produce fruits are the ones who abide in Christ. Abide means remain in Him. And the only one's that remain in Him are His sheep, only they hear His voice and follow Him. They only have eternal life. In (John 15:1-15) in the context the focus was on the 11 faithful disciples. In the immediate context Judas was in view, the one who did not remain with Jesus. The image of non-fruit bearing branches being burned pictures eschatological judgment and eternal rejection (Ezek. 15:6-8).
---Mark_V. on 4/9/13


Mark V, GOD changes not, "I AM the LORD, I change not.", MALACHI 3:6a. YAHUSHUA says, in JOHN 1:1-15, "He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.", "Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit HE taketh away." A person must be IN the Lord to even be a branch at all. If one bears "fruits" (good works) they remain and are pruned. If not, they're taken away. JAMES 2:17-18 says "Faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD". "Behold, to OBEY is better than sacrifice", I SAMUEL 15:22. That's of personal sacrifices made, not the LORD's Sacrifice. LUKE 21:36 says, "...pray always, that ye MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass."
---Gordon on 4/9/13


Gordon 2: You say,
" Those who make YAHUSHUA first in their lives and walk in Obedience, Holiness, Love and Truth have the best chance at being part of the Bride."
So in order to be the bride of Christ, you have to do a lot of works to be acceptable? If you are smart you might become His bride? Free will is in your minds. It comes out just about every answer, and then deny your salvation is not of works.
No one is deserving of salvation. When the disciples ask Jesus:
"who then can be saved?" and if you pay close attention you will hear Jesus,
"But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:25,26).
---Mark_V. on 4/9/13


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Gordon, don't you hear what you are saying? Saints who do not have a love for Christ. Are you one of those who is a saint and don't have a love for Christ? I never heard of such people. Not even found in any spanish Bible either. You do not even have the Coming of Christ correct. Then say the saints stay behind. What else are you going to come out with? You need to start from the beginning of the Bible. Throw away every book you have pickup. Knell down and pray, ask God to forgive you, and to teach you the Truth. Tell Him he made you a latino brother and that you need help, He will help you.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/13


Micha, Though all are "Saints", not all Saints have YAHUSHUA as their First Love. A number of Saints live in compromise and worldliness and YAHUSHUA, for them, takes the passenger seat, instead of the steering wheel. Like students in the same classroom under one teacher, do not all get the same grades. Various students apply themselves in different degrees. Some study hard and get good grades, others don't try and they flunk. So it is in the Church. YAHUSHUA will reward each accordingly. Being in the Bridal Rapture is one of those "Rewards". It is a Privilege, not a "Right". Those who make YAHUSHUA first in their lives and walk in Obedience, Holiness, Love and Truth have the best chance at being part of the Bride.
---Gordon on 4/8/13


Gordon,
What does "found unworthy" mean in regards to "saints"?
If they are saints, what other requirements do they need to be "worthy"?
---micha9344 on 4/8/13


Mark V, There is coming a Rapture for the Bride of CHRIST. She will be spared of GOD's Judgments to come during the Great Tribulation. There'll be some Saints left behind, who will be found unworthy of being raptured and spared because of sin and compromise. They shall be tortured and martyred. At the end of this Tribulation, King YAHUSHUA shall come back to Earth, with His Bride whom He raptured up earlier. YAHUSHUA will set His Foot down on the Mount of Olives. He'll cast the A.C. (a Son of Perdition) and the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire and then begin His 1,000-Year Reign on Earth in Jerusalem. Satan shall be locked up during this 1,000-Year Reign so that there shall be relative Peace on Earth under YAHUSHUA's Rule.
---Gordon on 4/8/13


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Gordon, again you do not understand the Second Coming of Christ. Did you read (Matt 24:36-44)?
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will be the Coming of the Son of Man." Now what happened to those in the time of Noah who rejected the Lord? They all drowned. God brought judgment to the rest for rejecting the Lord. Why didn't God leave Noah and family outside the Ark? Because Noah and family were found righteous. So why should believers be left on earth for the Judgment? Think. On that Day, means the Second Coming of Christ, the Son of Man. The same word "Parousia" for Second Coming of Christ is use.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/13


Mark V, wow. Your response to my last comment made absolutely no sense whatsoever. It certainly had nothing to do with my comment. Nevertheless, the "caught up" in I THESSALONIANS 4 is speaking of the Saints being "caught up" to YAHUSHUA while He's awaiting mid-air to receive them. When they meet up to Him, in this Rapture, they will forevermore be directly in His Glorious Presence, regardless of where He is. This "caught up" is not referring to the Saints going up into Heaven to live, as you seem to be alluding to. Sorry, in this issue, you've been Blinded By The angel of Light (II CORINTHIANS 11:14.)
---Gordon on 4/7/13


Christan, I re-read REVELATION 20:2-3 very carefully, as you suggested, and it still says that GOD will have Satan bound up in the Bottomless Pit, for 1,000 Years. The meaning hasn't changed since I last commented. Satan will be imprisoned so that he will not be able to deceive the nations of the Earth until the 1,000 Years are done. This simply means that there will 1,000 Years of Peace on Earth, without the Tempter around to deceive and tempt the people of all nations. It's not complicated to understand, Chris. Really, I promise. :-)
---Gordon on 4/7/13


Christan, How does YAHUSHUA reigning on the Earth for 1,000 Years negate Eternal Life? You are so blinded, I just don't get it. It's stupefying how you can't process something so simple as this subject of YAHUSHUA's 1,000-Year Reign on Earth. The saddest part is how you keep fighting against the Truth, especially when you think you know it already. Anyway, part of the purpose of the 1,000-Year Reign is a period of Rest for the Earth, a true Peace on Earth, under the Reign of the KING Of Kings. It's GOD's Will for YAHUSHUA to reign, in Jerusalem, on the "Throne of king David", which He inherited because, #1) He's God, and #2) He inherited it by Legal Rights through Joseph's marriage to His earthly mother Miryam (Mary).
---Gordon on 4/7/13


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---christan on 4/6/13
lets substitute eternity

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, and bound him for eternity,

Revelation 20:3 that he should deceive the nations no more, till eternity should be fulfilled: and after eternity he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:..and they lived and reigned with Christ for eternity.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until eternity was finished.

Revelation 20:6 they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him for eternity.

Revelation 20:7 And when eternity is expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
---francis on 4/7/13


Cluny: "Jesus ascended to heaven by His own power as God."

Jesus did not ascent by his own power, God the
Father raised him. Jesus cannot do anything by himself, God the Father performed all miracles through Jesus. Jesus says so himself.

As for all prophesy as one after another is an assumption on your part, In fact, they all happen concurrently.
---Steveng on 4/7/13


Matt 24 is prophecy for the nation of Israel.
Jesus is speaking to His chosen judges about His coming. one taken one left.
one lost, one saved
Every member of the BoC is saved.
Matt 10:22 ...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved... Jesus speaking to the 12 about the trib.
Paul tells us the BoC we are saved by the finished work of the Cross, not by our enduring.
Daniel was Israel's prophet, not the BoC.
There is no prophecy for what Paul speaks of in 1 Cor & 1Thess
The twelve apostles deal with the 12 tribes of Israel.
One apostle Paul deals with the one body, the BoC
---michael_e on 4/7/13


If the "thousand years" here isn't symbolic of eternity, then Jesus is a big fat liar when He prayed to the Father:
---christan on 4/6/13

Well it is NOT symbolic of ternity because of these:

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired,...

Eternity cannot expire, and eternity cannot finish

but the bible list other activities that will happen when this 1000 years is up

so it is 1000 literal years and not eternity

your no free will doctrine has blinded you
---francis on 4/7/13


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Bro. Willie, thank the passage:
"Jesus says "His angels" will "gather" His people "immediately after the tribulation of those days" > see Matthew 24:29-31."
It's hard for others who have followed the dispensational theory of the Rapture to suddenly change their own minds. This theory mostly became popular by the commentaries in the Scoffield Bible. The Bible only speaks of One Second Coming of Christ. Not two or three. Nothing is secret about His Coming. We are even told that the same way Jesus left, the same way He will return, people will see Him. In the Left Behind story, one is taken and the other suddenly disappears. It is a secret Coming of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/7/13


francis, do you even understand what you quote? "...and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS." If the "thousand years" here isn't symbolic of eternity, then Jesus is a big fat liar when He prayed to the Father:

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give ETERNAL LIFE to as many as thou hast given him. AND THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

It seems the SDA doctrines are no different from the Arminians. Your bondage to the "free-will" doctrine is what binds you guys together, though you claim to be of different "denominations" (which btw is unscriptural).
---christan on 4/6/13


//Jesus says "His angels" will "gather" His people "immediately after the tribulation of those days" > see Matthew 24:29-31.//
Who is speaking, to whom is He speaking, what is He speaking about?
Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto THEM, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down
---michael_e on 4/6/13


Jesus says "His angels" will "gather" His people "immediately after the tribulation of those days" > see Matthew 24:29-31.

And Jesus does say, "'For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Matthew 11:30) So, while we obey Jesus in His almighty grace (2 Corinthians 12:9-10), He can give us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) during whatever we go through with Jesus (c:

It says, "I will fear no evil," in Psalm 23:4, and God prepares "a table before me in the presence of my enemies," in Psalm 23:5. So, right in the presence of any "enemies", we can have all that is of our Father's own table prepared before us (c:
---willie_c: on 4/6/13


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Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and JUDGMENT was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall JUDGE the world?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall JUDGE angels?

Matthew 19:28 ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

We are told at least three times that the saints will reign as judges.
revelation 20 tells us how long this reign will be

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them:..and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS.

nothing says it is symbolic
---francis on 4/5/13


Gordon, you also said,
" What is the point, or logical reasoning behind CHRIST calling up the Believers unto Himself as He's in the Air above, as per I THESSALONIANS 4:17, if He's already on His way coming down to Earth"
Don't you understand that the been "caught up" is necessary for every believer alive and dead, but in that day he is finally glorified with a body prepared for heaven? We are finally glorified.
"So also is the resurrection of the dead, The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power" (1 Cor. 15:42,43).
---Mark_V. on 4/6/13


Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and JUDGMENT was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall JUDGE the world?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall JUDGE angels?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them:..and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This 1000 year reign of the saints, is the saints reign as judges before the posses the earth. It is NOT the reign of Jesus, but the reign of the saints in heaven with Jesus
---francis on 4/5/13


Gordon, read Revelation 20:2,3 with care and you will notice (if you have eyes) that the "thousand years" mentioned is symbolic of ETERNAL, ie the perfection of God's Kingdom. Scripture must confirm Scripture.

Peter describes God as "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." God is not constrain by time and that's because He's eternal.

Satan's destiny was already decided before God created him to be "locked up in the bottomless pit". This simply confirms the doctrine of predestination, which is so richly taught in the Scriptures. But I think you believe not.
---christan on 4/5/13


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Christan, If the 1,000-Years is "symbolic" as you say, then, what is it symbolic of? If you can't tell us, then you don't really know whether it's symbolic or literal. Anyways, some things in REVELATION are symbolic, indeed. Equally, some things are also quite literal. The challenge is to know which is which. I believe that the World is around 6,000 years old. And the 1,000-Year Reign of King YAHUSHUA on Earth will be 1,000 Years of literal Peace on Earth. The 6,000 years of labourous living followed by 1,000 Years of Peace is parallel to the 6 Days of Creation and the 7th Day of GOD's Rest, as in GENESIS 1 and 2:1-3. Just as we are to do all our work within the first 6 days and follow it by a Sabbath day of rest. It's all a Pattern.
---Gordon on 4/5/13


Gordon, your understanding of the "1,000 years" as a physical time frame is in erroneous. Here's why:

- the world since God created it, is estimated by historians to be around only six thousand years
- satan appeared to mankind as early as Genesis 3
- satan was at work four thousand years later tempting Christ
- satan has been at work since then and most definitely till the end of the world till the Day of the Lord

With these facts from Scriptures, "1,000 years" is most definitely not a physical time period but points to something symbolic. In Revelation, there are many symbolic references.
---christan on 4/5/13


End-Times: 1)Great Falling Away (Apostasy), happening NOW, II THESS. 2:3, 2) Rapture of Bride, I THESS. 4:16-17, (the "Lord...shall descend", His desension from the 3rd Heaven to mid-air above Earth), 3) Reign of Anti-Christ (Man of Sin), 4)"Day of CHRIST", YAHUSHUA returns to Earth to defeat A.C. and False Prophet, and reign 1,000 Years. Also, Satan is locked up for 1,000 years, REV. 20:2-3. After 1,000 Years, Satan loosed, then cast alive into Lake of Fire, REV. 20:7-10, 5)The Day of Judgment: The Damned before GOD's White Throne, The Day of the LORD. All the Damned cast into Lake of Fire, 6) New Heaven and New Earth with Mansions of JOHN 14:1-3 (New Jerusalem) coming down to Earth, 7) "Heaven on Earth" at last.
---Gordon on 4/4/13


bro. Mark E, you asked:

"As you know, Jesus told us in words and parables that "you know not when your master returns, so be ready". But, if His Second Coming is at the end of the tribulation period, then don't we know when He will return?"

No one knows when the Master will return. Because no one knows when the end of the tribulation period will end. All we are call to do is be ready. The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming of Christ. Many passages speak of that Day. Before that Day comes, the falling away will come, and the man of sin, the son of perdition. The Church today is already in apostasy, and the son of perdition already came.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/13


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The problem with dispensation theology lies with the word "tribulation", which you highlight as a particular event. No where does the Scripture teaches that. "Tribulation" is what every Christian will have to go through in their life when they are called by God to the fellowship of His Son. Jesus admonishes,

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

The second coming of Christ is once and for all, when everything will be destroyed by Him. All will happen "in a twinkling of an eye" for His saints and the reprobates will be cast into the lake of fire.
---christan on 4/4/13


==//Nor does it say that Christ makes a U-turn, either.//
You don't actually think He needs an escort do you?
---michael_e on 4/4/13==

Not that Christ needs an escort--being God He needs nothing from us.

However, this is how the ancient Christian writers have always interpreted it--that we will be gathered to Him and escort Him back to earth when He returns.

St. John Chrysostom puts it brilliantly in his homily on 1 Thess. You can find it on line.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/13


Your question is based on a false assumption. That we know when the tribulation will end. Those who believe in the Secret rapture theory say the tribluation is 7 years long. But that is based on their understanding of the 70 weeks of Daniel not being over yet.

But the 70 weeks are over they ended before 70 AD. So we do not know how long the tribulation is. I just pray it is short.
---Samuelbb7 on 4/4/13


John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
How do the different views of His coming effect this and surrounding verses?
---micha9344 on 4/4/13


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After seeing everyone saying that the "gathering up" of believers and the Second Coming of Jesus are at the same time or nearly same time, I have a question I wish to ask these people.

As you know, Jesus told us in words and parables that "you know not when your master returns, so be ready". But, if His Second Coming is at the end of the tribulation period, then don't we know when He will return?

If His statement is indeed true (I believe it is), it can only be true if He returns prior to the events in The Revelation. Once these events start to occur, we have a definite timeline to His return.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/4/13


Mark V, If the Second Coming of YAHUSHUA to the Earth and what I call "the Rapture" were the exact same thing, as you say they are, then, What is the point, or logical reasoning behind CHRIST calling up the Believers unto Himself as He's in the Air above, as per I THESSALONIANS 4:17, if He's already on His way coming down to Earth? Why not just have those Believers just stay on Earth until He gets there?? What's with the yo-yo-ing?
---Gordon on 4/4/13


//Nor does it say that Christ makes a U-turn, either.//
You don't actually think He needs an escort do you?
---michael_e on 4/4/13


\\1 Thess. 4:13-17 Paul speaks to the Church, the Body of Christ.
Nothing of Christ touching the earth, or us making a u turn.\\

Nor does it say that Christ makes a U-turn, either.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/4/13


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No where in the Scriptures do you find such a word as "rapture" to describe Christ's second coming. The word that many do not see which is mentioned in the Scriptures is simply known as the "glorification" of the saints.

In 2 Peter 3, it's mentioned that time is call "the day of the Lord", which is also known as Judgement Day. That is, the coming of Christ (which His "church" is awaiting) is when He will establish the eternal state of heaven and hell.

Whereas the dispensation theorists will have Jesus coming back more than once, which is ridiculous and ludicrous, according to Paul and Peter in their epistles.
---christan on 4/4/13


Gordon, the Second Coming of Christ is the coming of Christ. In the rapture story you gave it is the Coming of Christ. On the passage of the "gathering of believers" it is the coming of Christ. They are the very same thing. No matter if the word "caught up" means Harpazo, and the "gathering together" means "Episunagoge". In both cases believers come together to meet the Lord, and both cases He comes. There is nothing to suggest that one is different then the other because one does not mention His feet touching the ground. One Second Coming of Christ is mentioned, not a Third Coming. No secret Coming either. Both (1 Thess. 4:15-17 and 2 Thess. 2:13) are the same coming of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/4/13


Francis //When he comes the second time in the clouds, his brightness with destroy the wicked 2 Thess 2:8

And the most wicked people on earth are those that do not observe the Old Covenant Sabbath, Rev. 14:12 - true or false?

Yes, I have reads some of olde Ellen's works.
---e.lee7537 on 4/3/13


The second coming is when Jesus returns to earth to gather his saints.

Some may say, that the second coming is when Jesus returns and sets foot on the mount.

Here is how this happens: Jesus returns in the clouds, does not set foot down, gathers the saints, return to heaven for 1000 years with the saints, when the 1000 years are over, Jesus comes back with the saints in the New Jerusalem, his feet touch the mount

When he comes the second time in the clouds, his brightness with destroy the wicked 2 Thess 2:8

When he comes with the New Jerusalem, fire destroys the wicked Revelation 20:9
---francis on 4/3/13


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Zech.14:4 Acts 1:11 prophecy to Israel of the second coming of Christ. He stands on the Mt of Olives.
Nothing of a catching up.

1 Cor 15:51,52 1 Thess. 4:13-17 Paul speaks to the Church, the Body of Christ.
Nothing of Christ touching the earth, or us making a u turn.

Different language, different events.
---michael_e on 4/3/13


\\Enoch, Elijah were harpazo'd. Jesus was harpazo'd.\\

Wrong.

Jesus ascended to heaven by His own power as God. He was not "caught up." Read the Greek. HARPAZO is not used for this.

**//Christ appears and descends, gathering us up together to escort Him back to earth when He comes to execute the Last Judgement.//

BCV please
---michael_e on 4/3/13**

All through the NT, michael_e.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/3/13


Jan, your talking of two different topics. I was referring to the word "Coming" of the Lord," The word coming is found in both passages and it's the word "Parousia". The word "caught up" might be called Harpazo, meaning to strip or snatch, literally to seize upon with force. The word "gathering" found in (2 Thess. 2:1-3) is the word "Episunagoge" a gathering together in reference to (2 Thess. 2:1 and 2 Thess. 4:17). But the Word "Coming" remains "Parousia" in both passages. The Second Coming is the topic. If one was not a "coming of the Lord" it would not have the word "coming." If there was another coming we would have had a Third Coming of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/13


Mark V, I worded my question the way I did, because I, myself, have been making a clear distinction between the "Second Coming" (Parousia) and the "Rapture" (Harpazo) of the Bride. (Except for mis-wording my last comment on the other Blog.) Other than that one mistake, I've been saying ONE "Second Coming" and also a Rapture. YOU keep trying to accuse me of claiming "two Comings", as if the Rapture I speak of were another Second Coming of CHRIST. And, it's NOT. In the Rapture, the Lord will NOT touch Earth, as He will at His Return. He will be up in the Air, catching up His Bride. So, the Rapture WILL happen. And, it cannot be classified as a "Coming of CHRIST to the Earth.
---Gordon on 4/3/13


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They happen at the exact same time, Same day

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout( SECOND COMING), with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:( RAPTURE) and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Daniel 12:1Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up ( SECOND COMING), and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,( RAPTURE) some to everlasting life
---francis on 4/3/13


Harpazo is the Greek word for "caught up" from 1 Thess 4:17. The Latin word is Rapturo, from which comes Rapture.

Enoch, Elijah were harpazo'd. Jesus was harpazo'd. The two witnesses will be harpazo'd.

Since 53AD there have been prognosticators predicting when the Harpazo would happen. 1830 happens to be when someone first heard it from John Darby because their church didn't find 1 Thess. 4:17.

Parousia and Harpazo are not the same thing. Parousia has no "caught up" in it. But only "come down from heaven".
---jan4378 on 4/2/13


Gordon, there is only one Second Coming of Christ. The Second Coming when believers are caught up to be with the Lord will be the loudest event ever in the history of the world. It's not secret. (1 Thess. 4:15-17) in (v. 15) it states (the Coming of the Lord) (v. 16) tells us it will be very loud, (v.17) tells us believers will be caught up.
In (2 Thess. 2:1-3) the second letter to the Thessalonians Paul said,
"Concerning the Coming of our Lord and our gathering together in Him" Paul then says, (v. 3) "let no one decieve you for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition."
The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming.
---Mark_V. on 4/3/13


//Christ appears and descends, gathering us up together to escort Him back to earth when He comes to execute the Last Judgement.//

BCV please
---michael_e on 4/3/13


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No, but the are events that happen immediately one after the other.

Christ appears and descends, gathering us up together to escort Him back to earth when He comes to execute the Last Judgement.

To put it another way, they are two phases of the same event.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/2/13


For years, I heard Jesus is coming before the great tribulation to rapture His Bride church. Then I looked for scripture which directly says anything like "Christ's return will be before the great tribulation." But I found no scripture which directly says this. So, a pre-trib resurrection of the church is not a plainly written guarantee in the New Testament paid for by Jesus' blood.

But Jesus, Himself, says "the sign of the Son of Man will appear" "immediately after the tribulation of those days," in Matthew 12:21-31.
And Paul says, Christ's return will be "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The last trumpet that Jesus mentions . . . in Matthew 24:31 . . . is after the tribulation.
---willie_c: on 4/2/13


No one ever taught or even heard of the pretribulation rapture before 1850. Why should one believe in it now?
---Love.wins on 4/2/13


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