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Salvation With Works

Interpret Hebrews 4 concerning what is the rest that God speaks of. Is the rest of God that believers enter into a day, or does it simply that which characterizes the believers salvation apart from works?

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 ---e.lee7537 on 4/7/13
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francis, you are partly right on this. some Baptist believe differently
---shira4368 on 4/16/13
And when you change pastors, some of your beliefs, especially concerning bible prophecy will change. What you believe as a baptist changes from pastor to pastor, and the baptist church down the street from you, although you both belong to the very same baptist conference, have different doctrines.
If you left your congregation, and moved to another city and attended a different baptist church, the doctrines will be different

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
---francis on 4/16/13


francis//So by not keeping the sabbath, and not repenting for your sin, you are not justified by God

---
wrong! Such a law, like circumcision was not mandated in the New Covenant.

While early Jewish Christians observed the laws of Moses, the Jerusalem council decreed that Gentile believers need not convert to Judaism to be legit.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

(15:24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
---e.lee7537 on 4/16/13


"...keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point,is guilty of all."
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill.

He also said:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

So by not keeping the sabbath, and not repenting for your sin, you are not justified by God
---francis on 4/16/13


Hebrews chapter 4 Paul is encouraging us to hold fast to our faith in order to enter into God's rest for us here in this world.
>He shows us by example how the Jews in the wilderness did not enter into this rest because the gospel preached did not mix with faith. In other words, belief/faith that Christ has won the victory is vital to enter into this rest.
>If we do not believe in the finished work of Christ and the sufficiency of his work to pay the price for our sins and obtain our eternal redemption / salvation then we are not at rest.
>If we rely on our own works in order to obtain salvation then we will never enter into that rest while here on earth.
---trey on 4/16/13


francis, you are partly right on this. some Baptist believe differently but I am what I am because I am born again and for me, it works. I don't go to certain kinds of Baptist churches. some are liberal and some are contemporary and I just want to stick with the ol stuff.
---shira4368 on 4/16/13




Francis //
SDA doctrine are the ways of death.
----
At the end of the day, if you really could view yourself as God sees you, you would still be a sinner in need of the Savior.

Ever read James 2:10?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Yes, indeed you should Repent and believe in Jesus, or has the god of this world permanently blinded you to the truth?
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13


---shira4368 on 4/15/13
Being a baptist, you are not aware of what baptist teach, baptist is not a church, it is a congregation, and the baptist teaching vary from building to building, and baptist pastor to baptist pastor.

look up what people like D. L moody, Dr. E. T. Hiscox have to say about the sabbath

then look up seventh day BAPTIST

AND THEN do what all bapists suggest LOOK IN THE BIBLE as your ONLY GUIDE


The Roman church viewpoint is NOT that of the Protestant viewpoint.
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13
I just posted the view point on Baptist, Presbyterian and Lutherans and they are all in agreement that when it comes to the sabbath doctrine the SDA church correct and they are in error

Lutherans:
---francis on 4/15/13


Francis said: "It seem right to some to break God's law, but the end is DEATH
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death"

And this applies to Francis himself as in his unbelief, he built again the law for righteousness by works for himself, thus making himself a transgressor/Sinner as he cannot keep it perfectly (James 2:10).

Gal 2:18 "if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

Francis, note Proverbs 16:25. "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death".

SDA doctrine are the ways of death.

Repent and believe in Jesus, instead.
---Haz27 on 4/15/13


francis, you listen too much to sda false doctrine. I know many Baptist and none has ever met on Saturday instead of sunday. we may have church all week during a campmeeting and a revival but you can bet we meet on sundays for sure.
---shira4368 on 4/15/13


francis //Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

It seem right to some to break God's law, but the end is DEATH
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

---
I am very familiar with these verses and thus strive to obey the Lord in all areas of my life. However, you SDAs impose laws onto the church that are NOT APPLICABLE.

The Jewish Sabbath went out with physical circumcision, and that is all too easy to see.
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13




Francis//
People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

---
The Roman church viewpoint is NOT that of the Protestant viewpoint.

Never have nor never will accept the Roman Church position on these issue as they rarely support the Biblical view. The Biblical view does not include observance of the Jewish Sabbath, the Levitical dietary laws, nor you unbiblical IJ theory, nor your adoration of Ellen White.
---e.lee7537 on 4/15/13


None of them can point to any reason why we should not honour God as creator and keep the 7th day sabbath as commanded.
---francis on 4/13/13

How about two verses? Would that be enough to convince you?

Mark 2:27 "Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath"

Heb 4:7 "He again fixes a certain day, 'Today' saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, 'Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts"

Today is the day of rest. As the Scripture continues, let us be diligent to enter that rest, God's rest, so that no one will fall through following the same example of disobedience, Israel's disobedience.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/15/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/14/13
RCC:
"In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

Presbyterian:
"..soon as we appeal to the litera scripta of the Bible, the Sabbatarians have the best of the argument." The Christian at Work, April 19, 1883, and Jan. 1884

Baptist:
"There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Harold Lindsell , Christianity Today, Nov. 5, 1976

Lutherans:
"These churches err in their teaching, for scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp.15, 16
---francis on 4/15/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/14/13
Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

It seem right to some to break God's law, but the end is DEATH
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
---francis on 4/15/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/14/13
all theologians agree with SDA"

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
---francis on 4/15/13


francis,
I wish you would quit quoting from that garbage "Clear Word" which is anything but.

You might think you're slick with your propaganda, but you and others can read on your own Adventist Review website:

The most popular paraphrases are The Message, The Clear Word, and The Living Bible. They succeed in making the Bible come alive to modern men and women. But use these versions for devotional purposes only, not for teaching doctrines...The Clear Word is an Adventist paraphrase, incorporating insights from Ellen White.
---William G. Johnsson

So stop trying to push intricate doctrines based on that putrid nonsense of Ellen White and Jack Blanco
---James_L on 4/15/13


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Francis continues to hold on to that ministry of condemnation/death. The less glorious ministry written and engraven in stones, 2Cor 3:7.

Hopefully Francis mind has not been irrevocably corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

As for Rom 6:1 & 15, they are warnings against the path Francis is on with his desire to be under the law, which thus makes him a sinner, Gal 2:18.

And if he continues to sin (Gal 2:18) willfully after having the knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Christ, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin, Heb 10:26.
Such are like a dog that returns to it's vomit, 2Pet2:21.

Francis repent and obey the holy commandment to believe in Jesus.
---Haz27 on 4/15/13


Scripture seems to be ignorant of any distinction between Moral and Ceremonial law
---James_L on 4/14/13
Scripture does make a distinction

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them... concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

So God himself separated the ceremonial laws from Moral laws,

MOSES:
Deut 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
---francis on 4/14/13


James L. Here in Australia I've never come across any churches named as Calvinist or Armenian.

And although we hear of Protestantism, again there are no churches with that label.

True, the law is the law and it's entirely against grace.

It's sad how some cannot accept the simplicity that is in Christ.
They are really saying that believing in Jesus is not enough to be righteous and works of the law are needed as well.
---Haz27 on 4/14/13


The Calvinist will say
The Arminian will say
---James_L on 4/13/13
BIBLE SAYS:

Hebrews 10:26 if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again,

Romans 6:1 Shall we not obey the Law,that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 shall we not obey the Law,because we are not under the law, but under grace?
---francis on 4/14/13


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Haz,
you're welcome.

Calvinists and Arminians are known as Protestants, or Reformers. Arminians are also Remonstrants.

Both groups try to disect the Law into categories of Moral and Ceremonial.

They claim that while we are now not obligated to the Ceremonial Law, we are still obligated to the Moral Law

To this Moral Law, the SDA does indeed have a point.

Where does God say that nine commandments are good enough?

If one wishes to remain under nine commandments, then he is also obligated to the tenth.

Scripture seems to be ignorant of any distinction between Moral and Ceremonial law

Law is Law, and is entirely against grace. The the whole of it is a curse
---James_L on 4/14/13


James L said: "The Calvinist will say that not obeying the Law proves we never were saved, like the SDA

The Arminian will say that not obeying the Law forfeits salvation, like the SDA

the SDAs only seem a little more confused, trying to blend both of those other legalistic views together

Either way, it's requiring works to enter heaven

Beware the leaven of Calvinists and Arminians too"

Thanks James.
I know nothing of these 2 groups and hence had no idea of their works based doctrine.

It's sad these groups have been corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3
---Haz27 on 4/14/13


Francis//
Matthew 12:8, Matthew 24:20, Mark 2:27, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 15:21, Acts 16:13, Acts 18:4, Acts 17:2, Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:9, Romans 1:25, Acts 17:24, Revelation 14:7, James 2:10, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, 2 Corinthians 3:3, Revelation 1:10, Isaiah 66:22-23

---

Virtually none of those verses you listed commands the observance of the Sabbath. We went over each and every one of these verses in previous blogs.

You will NOT find a single non-Sabbaterian theologian or commentary of the Bible that has ever been written that will agree with what you say.

What you really have is exegetics at its poorest level.
---e.lee7537 on 4/14/13


\\The SDAs DON'T KEEP the law, and yet they insist we must keep the law or else, as Francis says, "No, No, No" will be the answer to our salvation....Beware the leaven of the SDAs.\\
---Haz27 on 4/13/13


This is also to position of Calvinists and Arminians.

The Calvinist will say that not obeying the Law proves we never were saved, like the SDA

The Arminian will say that not obeying the Law forfeits salvation, like the SDA

the SDAs only seem a little more confused, trying to blend both of those other legalistic views together

Either way, it's requiring works to enter heaven

Beware the leaven of Calvinists and Arminians too
---James_L on 4/13/13


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Jesus was challenged time and time again on the issue of how the Sabbath was to be observed.

"Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath."

//Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The reference here concerned the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and Jewish Christians who continued in the Old Covenant laws would be at a disadvantage for travel either on the Sabbath or in winter.

No, jerry boy, Jesus was not addressing New Covenant Christians as He had yet to go to the Cross.

Lets face it Jerry, you are not a student of the Bible.
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13


WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE, New Testament Book chapter and verse PLEASE.
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13

Matthew 12:8, Matthew 24:20, Mark 2:27, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 15:21, Acts 16:13, Acts 18:4, Acts 17:2, Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:9, Romans 1:25, Acts 17:24, Revelation 14:7, James 2:10, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, 2 Corinthians 3:3, Revelation 1:10, Isaiah 66:22-23
---francis on 4/14/13


francis, you sin and break the law calling me names, for you and Jerry break the law all the time. Here you say,
"NO IDIOT!! Do you not understand that it is from these sins we call people to repent!"
francis, It is from these sins we" call people" to repent. "We" believers, who are not under the Law anymore, call those lost "people" who are under the Law to repent from those sins. With no faith in Christ they remain condemned,
"But Israel pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? "Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone"
---Mark_V. on 4/14/13


1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 3:20 by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: I had not known lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet
---francis on 4/14/13


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Although works could never in themselves save, they were required under the law for the obedience of faith. Since James faith was in the obedience of the law according to the commands of the Messiah then a faith in works without works would be vain indeed.

Works were needed for justification before the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

Thank God that now we have been delivered from the curse of the law and we now know it is the work of Christ paying for our sins on the cross that justifies the ungodly by faith alone! Put your faith in living Jesus Christ and his blood atonement for your sins.
---michael_e on 4/13/13


Francis//None of them can point to any reason why we should not honour God as creator ...

One can honor God as Creator and still have communal worship on Sunday, as that was the day the early church established.

//and keep the 7th day sabbath as commanded.

WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE, New Testament Book chapter and verse PLEASE.

Sorry but the gospel penned by Ellen White is not accepted as Scripture by Christians.

All she could do when she was not copying from the works of others, was to chirp & mutter.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they say to you, Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13


Haz//The SDAs DON'T KEEP the law, and yet they insist we must keep the law or else, as Francis says, "No, No, No" will be the answer to our salvation.


It is very unfortunate that Adventists believe that observance of the OT Sabbath is essential for ones salvation. All other commandments are of lesser importance according to olde Ellen who believed and wrote that the Sabbath was the mark of a true Christian while those who had communal worship on Sundays bear the mark of the beast referred to in Revelation.

Poor SDA souls, who will deliver them from such trash theology?
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13


Those who forsake the sabbath for sunday, are engaged in a fatal doctrine of tail wagging the dog

None of them can point to any reason why we should not honour God as creator and keep the 7th day sabbath as commanded. Throughout the NT and even in the new earth we read about the church keeping the sabbath

None of them can point to ONE single passage in the bible that says we are to keep sunday as a day to remember the resurrection

Ephesians 5:23 Christ is the head of the church:

The claim ( a LIE) is that the "the church" started to keep sunday rather than 7th day. The church does not tell Christ what the commandments must be, the tail does not wag the dog
---francis on 4/13/13


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The SDAs DON'T KEEP the law, and yet they insist we must keep the law or else, as Francis says, "No, No, No" will be the answer to our salvation.

Fortunately from the various SDAs I know, I found that not all are legalists like Francis.
But these nominal SDAs should leave that church for their own sakes.

Believers should not have anything to do with those who fornicate with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24, 1Cor 5:9-13.

A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.

Beware the leaven of the SDAs.
---Haz27 on 4/13/13


---Mark_V. on 4/13/13
No law can save. Should SDA then: worship other gods, make graven images, take God's name in vain, reject the Sabbath, dishounor parents, murder, commit adultery, steal, lie, and covet?

NO IDIOT!! Do you not understand that it is from these sins we call people to repent!
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13
Corinthians 9:8 grace: that ye may abound to every ..good work:
Ephesians 3:8 grace: that I should preach
Acts 14:26 grace: for the work which they fulfilled.
Romans 12:6 gifts according to the grace
Titus 2:11 grace: that.. we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,
---francis on 4/13/13


Leeast: "The verse in Matthew tells us that how the Sabbath was to be observed by those under the Old Covenant."

There you go again - lying and adding to Scripture.

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Now just where did you see the words "Old Covenant" in that verse? Jesus was speaking to New Covenant Christians about an event 40 years in the future. Is there any limit to your butchery of the Holy Scriptures?


---jerry6593 on 4/13/13


Bro. elee, I am totally on your side on this issue of the SDA's. When I first got on line, I knew little about the SDA's but with the answers of Jerry and francis I have learned a lot. There is no question that they never teach the Spirit of the law. Don't even mention who we are in Christ or what Christ did on the Cross. All their comments are toward the Law of Moses. A law that could not save anyone. But they insist on been under the Law. And by insisting, they are still found condemned. That is the bottom line. All the works will never get them anywhere, they even refuse to eat what God has cleansed. Now that is been very stubborn. They don't want the help that Jesus offers, His own death, they want to do it by themselves.
---Mark_V. on 4/13/13


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michael_e//Gods Word says that salvation is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8,9). He is not going to have boasters in heaven there are enough of them on earth and nobody likes them.

Agree that is what the Bible teaches but guys like Jerry and Francis have been brainwashed into believing they can with the help of God's Spirit to become enabled to obey all the laws and thus merit eternal life.

Grace to the Adventists is simply a provision that enables them to obey the law.

And such is the bottom line of their heretical Investigative Judgment belief- something that has created many former Adventists.

They don't get it because the truth would be too much for them to handle.
---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13


the first step to heaven is to realize that you can't get there by trying. You cant walk there. You cant climb there. You cant fly there. Only God can take you there. Many try to earn heaven. They try to climb there on a ladder of good works. They talk about adding another rung. But look out for that good works ladder! Its not anchored at the top and the higher you climb the farther you will fall.

Gods Word says that salvation is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8,9). He is not going to have boasters in heaven there are enough of them on earth and nobody likes them.
---michael_e on 4/12/13


--e.lee7537 on 4/12/13
Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house,

Acts 20:20 but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made, and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow, and continued his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:8 there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
---francis on 4/12/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13
I am NOT entitled to my own Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,to bow down to
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

Deuteronomy 4:13 he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

2 Cor 3:3 not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
---francis on 4/12/13


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If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lords Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death ... Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner ... But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God ... And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lords Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].
-Ignatius (30-107AD)
---micha9344 on 4/12/13


Francis- exactly what is the point you are trying to make?

The verses in Acts tell us that the early church grew up around the Jewish synagogues but as opposition grew, Christians no longer did the synagogues.

The verse in Matthew tells us that how the Sabbath was to be observed by those under the Old Covenant.

Perhaps you are getting more desperate as you can see that you really have no good arguments for demanding others observe the OT Sabbath.

In any case, you are entitled to your own convictions on this matter.
---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13


When in Rome, do as the Romans do

Stories behind Famous Sayings


The Saying: WHEN IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO.

Who Said It: St. Ambrose

When: 387 A.D.

The Story behind It: When St. Augustine arrived in Milan, he observed that the Church did not fast on Saturday as did the Church at Rome. He consulted St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, who replied: "When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday, when I am at Milan, I do not. Follow the custom of the Church where you are." The comment was changed to "When they are at Rome, they do there as they see done" by Robert Burton in his Anatomy of Melancholy. Eventually it became "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
---francis on 4/12/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13
Matthew 12:12 Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
---francis on 4/12/13


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Leeast: (I call Lee that because that is what he is called in heaven for his teaching of disobedience to the Ten Commandment Law of God.)

"Can you name any of the leaders of church of the first, second and third centuries that taught Sabbath keeping? Bet you cannot." Do you mean other that Peter, Paul and John?

Not much of a student of history, are you? I have given you many quotes over the years, but you keep forgetting them.

"From the apostles' time until the Council of Laodicea [364 AD] the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of council against it." - John Ley, Sunday A Sabbath, London, 1640
---jerry6593 on 4/12/13


Was it necessary for the NT to list each of every kind of sexual immorality?
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13

Is it nessessary that the NT list every single one of the ten commandments?

There are many commandments in the NT for us to keep the commandments of God, and not listed among them is: Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain,

If you claim that the NT does not have to list every sexual immorality then you lost again

because the NT calls us all to worship THE CREATOR, every mention to worship the creator is a call for the sabbath, because that is what the sabbath tells us
---francis on 4/11/13


He blamed the persecution by the Romans. Ellen blamed the Roman pope
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13

Let me give you the biblical answer, who God actually blames:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast.. shall .. think to change times and laws:

According to prophecy, the fourth kingdom / beast ( ROME) will try to change God's laws and times

Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ News on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950
---francis on 4/11/13


Now can you show me ONE apostle that taught specifically that believers were to observe the OT Sabbath?

//Leviticus 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Was it necessary for the NT to list each of every kind of sexual immorality? What has been viewed as sexual immorality has not changed since the beginning of time.

Francis is this is really one of your problems I suggest you get help as soon as possible as such a lifestyle is very unhealthful.

Clearly if the Sabbath were important we most certainly would see it commanded in the NT but we do not!
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13


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Can you name any of the leaders of church of the first, second and third centuries that taught Sabbath keeping? Bet you cannot.
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13
All of them including JESUS
Every last appsotle ( except jude) teaches obedience to the commandments of God

Now can you show me ONE apostlethat taught these specifically:
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Leviticus 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

but no one can say that because these are not taught in the NT that the church is not obligated to obey them
---francis on 4/11/13


However, if you do not like history, then all you need to do is to point to at least one verse in the NT that commands the Sabbath.

---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13

He only likes the history that his pack leader approves. Totally indoc'd. Would have made a fine Mormom. Yeah Mormom. Feminine side of Mormanism.
A flat earther sort of syndrome.
Watch him run from your challenge. We'll add one to it.
In all his bible he hasn't discovered Israel. He's found his chosen...Judah. But, neglects the other house mentioned in Heb 8:8-10. He either thinks he is a sheep or denies being one. Let see what he'll bleet back.
---Trav on 4/11/13


SDA church historian and theologian Samuele Bacchiocchi in his doctorate thesis centered around the fact that the church no longer observed the Sabbath by 135 AD. He blamed the persecution by the Romans in the Jewish rebellions for the change as the Gentile church did not want to be identified with Judaism.

However, olde Ellen blamed the Roman pope for the change but when asked who, when and where, Adventists act like they acquired mental retardation.

I am still waiting for your answer as to what early Gentile church fathers supported the Sabbath - the Saturday Sabbath NOT the Sunday Sabbath as some would call it.
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13


Jerry //One fact you cannot get around is that the Sabbath WAS taught in the early Gentile churches by their leaders, ..

Can you name any of the leaders of church of the first, second and third centuries that taught Sabbath keeping? Bet you cannot.

And worst yet for your contention is that church historians, even some that are Adventists, maintain that the Sabbath was no longer observed by the beginning of the second century.

However, if you do not like history, then all you need to do is to point to at least one verse in the NT that commands the Sabbath.
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13


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Lee: One fact you cannot get around is that the Sabbath WAS taught in the early Gentile churches by their leaders, some of whom, however, held to their pagan practices of sun worship and were direct influences on the changing of the pure religion of the Apostles. Of course, such facts are not accepted in in The Church of Lee.



---jerry6593 on 4/11/13


What I have obverved in Adventist churches is that they have very little knowledge of the Gospel.

if a judgment is made on Adventist literature, we may conclude that they really do know much about the Gospel.
---e.lee7537 on 4/10/13
the Sabbath was not taught in the early Gentile churches by their leaders,
---e.lee7537 on 4/10/13
SURE IT WAS
Corinthians 7:19 the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 12:17 keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
---francis on 4/11/13


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,

This passage written about 90 AD does not tell us what day the Lord's day is. There is no biblical record of any christian celebrating the day that the lord rose. How then would these saints know which day was the Lord's day: They searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy day, the holy of the LORD,

This passage and a few others affirm that the ONLY DAY given by God as His holy day is the sabbath

What we have in revelation is a record that the saint all kept the Lord's day, the Holy of the Lord, the sabbath day.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
---francis on 4/10/13


Francis in quoting Acts all you are confirming is that the early church grew up around the Jewish synagogues but as Gentiles became believers, they were not required to observe anything distinctly Jewish.

Circumcision was the entrance rite into the Jewish religion. Once a person became circumcised, he was obligated to observe all the laws of Judaism including observing the Sabbath.

So Paul did not need to mention Sabbath observance since circumcision was first required to observe the Sabbath.

One fact, you cannot get around is that the Sabbath was not taught in the early Gentile churches by their leaders, some of whom were direct successors of the Apostles. Of course, such facts are not accepted in Adventism.
---e.lee7537 on 4/10/13


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Francis//today 2000 years later, it is still true, the word of God is preached every Sabbath day,

---

What I have obverved in Adventist churches is that they have very little knowledge of the Gospel. All they really preach is hatred toward other Christians, especially if they happen to be Roman Catholic.

Of course, there are exceptions as the Adventist pastor who officiated at my brother's funeral seems to have a pretty good grasp on what the Gospel is.

if a judgment is made on Adventist literature, we may conclude that they really do know much about the Gospel.
---e.lee7537 on 4/10/13


Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

What was Paul waiting for. he mentioned in his letters that circumcision was not needed, why does he not mention that the sabbath was not needed either?

Writing letters as the apostles did, telling us that the word of God is preached every sabbath, and not mentioning that it was preached on first day, having the whole city to come on sabbath to hear the word of God,and not telling them come next day. WHY!!

today 2000 years leter, it is still true, the word of God is precahed every sabbath day,
---francis on 4/10/13


Apparently you don't listen when people point out your grammatical and contextual errors when dealing with Isa 66.
---micha9344 on 4/10/13


Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The expectation of Jesus, and Mathew who writes this years later, is that in the future, during the time of trouble, years after Jesus death, that his disciples will be keeping the sabbath. We still do.

And all through the NT you see his followers keeping the sabbath as i posted in my last post

and even in the new heavens

Isaiah 66:22 the new earth, ..from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
---francis on 4/10/13


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---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13
Acts 13:42 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
---francis on 4/9/13


As for history,.. .
---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13

The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93

The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews,...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Bible and history are BOTH on SDA side

GOOGLE " When in Rome do as the Romasn do" see what it says about the sabbath
---francis on 4/9/13


Francis //In other words, you can talk about history, but as soon as you look into the BIBLE, SDA are correct in their teaching of the Sabbath.

If the SDA were correct in their interpretation of the Bible, they would be able to justify observance of the Sabbath, but they cannot do so from the Bible.

As for history, Adventists refuse to learn that the church by the 2d century did not observe the Sabbath. The inescapable conclusion is that neither the Apostles nor their immediate successors taught Sabbath observance.

You really do not have much of an argument for Sabbath observance - something found ONLY in the Old Covenant.
---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13


None of the denominations that I have belonged to considered Sunday as the a replacement for the Sabbath.
---e.lee7537 on 4/8/13

Francis - yes the Westminster confession does believe that the Christian Sabbath was Sunday, however, I believe that to be incorrect as does many theologians today.
---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13

So bible or history?

history will show christians taking snakes to church, taking graven images to church, paying endulgences for sin, so history show what it sholws, but the bible is the word of God

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

---francis on 4/9/13


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---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13
My point is this: your church does teach a change from sabbath to sunday.

Ofcourse the OPC is incorrect

In respect to the first part of its original mandate, the committee begs to be excused for having refrained from an exhaustive study of the full "extent to which the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms faithfully reflect the Scripture teaching in regard to the Fourth Commandment." The committee felt that such an inclusive study would require excessive amounts of time,

The fooled you.
They studied the sabbath but INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDED the SABBATH COMMANDMENT!!
---francis on 4/9/13


Francis - yes the Westminster confession does believe that the Christian Sabbath was Sunday, however, I believe that to be incorrect as does many theologians today.

There is NOTHING in the entire Bible that commands the observance of any day for the Church. And that is something you have to agree with as no one has yet been able to find a single verse that commands the observance for the church of the Jewish Sabbath.

The church ceased to observe the OT Sabbath by the beginning of the 2d century, and that could only have happened if and only if, it was not taught either by the Apostles or their immediate successors.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get away from the FACTS.
---e.lee7537 on 4/9/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/8/13
Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter XXI Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

VII. in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men,... rest all the day from their own works,
---francis on 4/9/13


\\Is the rest of God that believers enter into a day, or does it simply that which characterizes the believers salvation apart from works?\\
---e.lee

What if it's neither one of those ??
---James_L on 4/8/13


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Francis//They teach all ten commencements (keep Sunday as their sabbath, or claim Jesus as sabbath without scripture) yet they do not consider keeping the other nine commandments as works for salvation.

None of the denominations that I have belonged to considered Sunday as the a replacement for the Sabbath.

What I have repeatedly stated is that communal worship on the Lord's Day, Sunday is simply that tradition established by the Apostles and followed by their immediate successors.

Can you point to at least one verse in the New Testament that even hints the church needs observe any day? Since you cannot, I will remain unconvinced as you really have no scripture nor valid argument on this issue.
---e.lee7537 on 4/8/13


or does it simply that which characterizes the believers salvation apart from works?
---e.lee7537 on 4/7/13
Here is how you know that these people who gather for worship on sunday are deceiving you

They teach all ten commencements (keep Sunday as their sabbath, or claim Jesus as sabbath without scripture) yet they do not consider keeping the other nine commandments as works for salvation

Think about it 9/10 commandments and you are not doing works, you are under grace and not law

But if you keep all ten exactly as commanded, and keep the 7th day as sabbath, which they keep the 1st day as sabbath you are doing work for salvation, and under law
---francis on 4/8/13


The children of israel did not keep the sabbath in the wilderness, and they did not keep it in the promise land.


What this text tells us is that we are to keep the sabbath, and do not do like those in the wilderness, and those who entered with Joshua who forskook the sabbath.
For God's people there is still sabbath, and those who enter into that sabbath rest, the rest on the 7th day Just as God did from His rest. Unlike israel who provoked and did not keep the sabbath
---francis on 4/8/13


Note that the Israelis who observed the Saturday Sabbath did NOT enter into His rest.
---e.lee7537 on 4/8/13
Hebrews 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Ezekiel 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:.. and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

It was those who did not keep the sabbath, that did not make it

You are wrong AGAIN on this sabbath doctrine
---francis on 4/8/13


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Francis, you really need to study the entire section in Hebrews 4 where it speaks of God's rest that those who believe will enter into.(4:3)

Note that the Israelis who observed the Saturday Sabbath did NOT enter into His rest.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of ANOTHER day later on.

The day we enter into His rest is the day we become His children, not the observance of the OT Sabbath, that the Jews failed to enter.

Suggest you find a good commentary on Hebrews, or better yet find a church that preaches the Bible.
---e.lee7537 on 4/8/13


Interpret Hebrews 4 concerning what is the rest that God speaks of.
---e.lee7537 on 4/7/13
Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

No other way did God rest, than on the 7th day from creation

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4: speaks of two rest
1: the weekly sabbath
2: Entering Canaan
---francis on 4/8/13


James 2 v 20. Baptism is a work, attending Church, so is Bible reading, witnessing etc.
But a persons own self righteous carnal works Don't count.
---Lawrence on 4/8/13


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