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Authority To Men

Matt 23:2-3 "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. Matt 16:19 Peter: Keys to heaven.

Why do so many refuse to believe that Jesus gave authority to men on earth?

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 ---Nikki on 4/11/13
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Francis, read my blog aagin. It was Christan who made that statement, not me.

"what then constitute to one who follows this person by the name of Christ? A Roman Catholic? Or how about Methodist, Protestant, Baptist or Presbyterian? No wait... a Christian? You know why you can't see the connection? That's because you ain't no Christian."--christan
---Nikki on 4/21/13


what then constitute to one who follows this person by the name of Christ?
---Nikki on 4/21/13
Revelation 12:17 the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
---francis on 4/21/13


what then constitute to one who follows this person by the name of Christ? A Roman Catholic? Or how about Methodist, Protestant, Baptist or Presbyterian? No wait... a Christian? You know why you can't see the connection? That's because you ain't no Christian.--christan

Saying sorry is too hard for you? That's okay.
Anywho, Let me try to explain it to you another way, Everyone in USA is an American.
One might say he is a Texan, another one states he is an Alabamian, but we are both American. Those states helps other to narrow one's home in the America.

Same for Christians. Sadly for you, is that 90% non christian in the WORLD only thinks Catholics are the only Christian on earth.
Just look at which Churches are burning.
---Nikki on 4/21/13


Nikki, if followers and disciples of Jesus Christ are not known as Christians, what then constitute to one who follows this person by the name of Christ? A Roman Catholic? Or how about Methodist, Protestant, Baptist or Presbyterian? No wait... a Christian?

You know why you can't see the connection? That's because you ain't no Christian. You rather be known and be called a Roman Catholic other than a Christian and that's because you're attracted by the pomp and traditions of the Romans other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyways, I believe in predestination so who am I to criticize you for the "faith" that God has given to you for now.
---christan on 4/20/13


\\How true isn't it when Christ declared "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."
---christan on 4/20/13\\

That's exactly what you do, christan.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/20/13




I am still looking for the place or places where Jesus told His disciples to call themselves "Christians".
Can you point it out christan?

Thanks christan but Jesus did not say to call themselves "Christians" in Acts 11:26 or 1 Peter 4:16.
Maybe you misunderstood as you usually do, and neither did Nikki asked. I Nana asked this,

'Estoy buscando el lugar o lugares donde Jesus dijo a Sus discipulos que se llamen, "Cristianos"'.
---Nana on 4/20/13


See the connection?--christan

No, because I NEVER said any of those things. That was Nana
Your response doesn't make any sense.

'The word "Catholic" is derived from a Greek word, Katholikos, originally meaning universal. In the early days of the Church, many Roman citizens referred to this new upstart religion that followed the "Ways" of Jesus Christ as being Catholic--it was universal throughout the empire--meaning that members of this new religion could be found almost anywhere throughout the empire..the very nature of the Church, in that it was universally for everyone. There was no exclusion according to nationality, race, economic or social status. It is for all the people of God.'-Diocese Lake Charles
---Nikki on 4/20/13


Cluny, and yet Orthodoxy precedes those names you mentioned from the Bible and more importantly being only known just as a Christian. See the hypocrisy rooted in your doctrine? You can't even for the life call yourself a Christian and now you say Orthodoxy is just a label. Anyways, Jesus never say we are to call ourselves "Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of the Firstborn, and all the other names you find in the NT", but simply, a Christian.

How true isn't it when Christ declared "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."
---christan on 4/20/13


"I was looking for the place or places where Jesus told His disciples to call themselves "Christians"." Nikki

Your lack of knowledge in Jesus Christ is apparent. By your own heart you've just confessed that the RC faith is not Christian. Nothing surprising here.

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God on this behalf." 1 Peter 4:16

You see any reference in the Bible that says Roman Catholics? Now you know why the RCs are not Christians? Btw, it's common sense, disciples and followers of Christ are Christians, get it? See the connection?
---christan on 4/19/13


\\You actually believe the man made of dust can fight with God?\\

You do it with everything you say to me.

And "Orthodox" is simply a label we wear where outsiders can find us. Our name to OURSELVES is the Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of the Firstborn, and all the other names you find in the NT.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/19/13




" If your Orthodoxy faith is true, Jesus would have told His disciples to call themselves Orthodoxy Christians instead of just Christians."
--christan on 4/19/13

I was looking for the place or places where Jesus told His disciples to call themselves "Christians".
Can you point it out christan?
---Nana on 4/19/13


"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12,13

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48
---christan on 4/19/13


Did Jesus even say this to the apostles, to go make "statues of saints" around your place of worship? HIS FATHER SAID SO. HE IS GOD AND YOU ARE NOT.

3. "Transubstantiation: John 6" Which verse? All of it. Chapter 6.

4. Anyways, you think Dec 25
No, it was chosen for a reason. No because it is the day the day light is longer than the dark time span. It means the Light overcomes the darkness.
Who is the Light of the world? JESUS. So what better day to pick to celebrate His birth.

5. Obelisk - see my response to Cluny. Because Peter saw it during his death it is there to show the world that the RCC which is built on top of HIS BONES! MATTHEW 16:13-19 JESUS ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES!---christan
---Nikki on 4/19/13


"Please don't fight the wooing of the Holy Spirit." Cluny

You actually believe the man made of dust can fight with God? How deluded can you get? If your Orthodoxy faith is true, Jesus would have told His disciples to call themselves Orthodoxy Christians instead of just Christians. Another delusion of yours is thinking the the Holy Spirit actually dwells in your temple of worship.

And you speak in defence of Macabees? Understand this: "And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth."

And guess who's the Mother of Harlots?
---christan on 4/19/13


\\Goes to show how much you know what the obelisk stands for and the origin of where it started and which nation used it as worship.\\

christan, are you so foolish that you think an obelisk is an object of worship for Roman Catholics?

Then what are you going to do about the Washington Monument--which has the words "Praise God" (Laus Deo) at its apex? Try to tear it down?

To me, both are just cunningly shaped big pieces of stone, and have nothing to do with my faith. You're the only one making a spiritual issue out of it.

Why?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/19/13


I never asked you to leave. Know why? because It takes a supernatural miracle to get someone to leave the RCC. That miracle does not come from me.---Mark_V.

So, you are assuming I am not listening to the Holy Spirit?

How do you know it isn't you who is mistaken and not listening or accepting God's miracles.
Every Tradition given by the RCC, I see a direct link to the Bible, but esp from God.
---Nikki on 4/19/13


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\\Even the lost can reason, they just don't reason for Christ.\\

You don't actually think you reason for Christ, do you, Mark_V?

But I agree. It takes a miracle of grace to pry victims out of Protestantism in any of its forms into Orthodoxy. Please don't fight the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

**2. Macabees? What's that? The brother of Macarena?**

I'll bet you think you're a wit. You could be half right, christan.

Now, should the mummies of pharaohs be destroyed because they were once worshipped? That's where your reasoning (such as it is) leads.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/19/13


Nikki, your wrong when you say,
"you miss understood me. Look at your own blog. You are blaming others what you are doing yourself." I am not blaming you or Ruben. You didn't institute all those traditions, the RCC leaders did. I institute nothing. I only bring it to light. Then say,
"Why can't you believe I can reason for myself?" Of course you can reason. You just choose to accept their traditional teachings. Even the lost can reason, they just don't reason for Christ. Then say,
"Because I didn't leave the RCC, I didn't reason correctly?" I never asked you to leave. Know why? because It takes a supernatural miracle to get someone to leave the RCC. That miracle does not come from me.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/13


Nikki, your answers are mind-boggling.

1. "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee." Exodus 25:16. Did Jesus even say this to the apostles, to go make "statues of saints" around your place of worship? Most definitely not!

2. Macabees? What's that? The brother of Macarena?

3. "Transubstantiation: John 6" Which verse?

4. "What we can't celebrate the birth of our Lord?" Did the Bible even mentioned that you are to celebrate His birthday, let alone guessing a particular date and assuming that was when He was born? Anyways, you think Dec 25 is coincidentally also the winter solstice?

5. Obelisk - see my response to Cluny.
---christan on 4/19/13


\\Goes to show how much you know what the obelisk stands for and the origin of where it started and which nation used it as worship.\\

What other people might have done with it has nothing to do with me or modern people.

I know nobody who worships an obelisk today, and what's more, YOU don't either.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/19/13


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"In any case this obelisk is nothing more than a monument from antiquity." Cluny

Goes to show how much you know what the obelisk stands for and the origin of where it started and which nation used it as worship. By all means, go look up the origins of the obelisk and tell us it has anything to do with Christianity or any of the numerous idols and relics that adorn your temple of worship.

As for Christmas, nothing you can say or point to convinces me that it's anything thing to do with the Holy Bible and more importantly the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
---christan on 4/18/13


Does the Catholic Church mind if a member ALSO attends services at a church of another denomination (in this case Orthodox,..---Peter9556

My understanding is that you can go to another Orthodox Church for services under the circumstance you gave.
BUT, will the Orthodox Priest allow a Catholic to receive Holy Communion is another question.

There is a saying: You can call an Orthodox Priest for a dying Catholic if a Catholic Priest isn't available. But, you can't call a Catholic Priest for a dying Orthodox.
I think most Orthodox think Catholics are lacks in their services.
Of course I might be wrong.
Ask Cluny and I think Ruben is Orthodox as well.
---Nikki on 4/18/13


Christan, these are your answers
1. Statues in Temple: God ordered graven images on the Ark Exodus 25:18-22

2. Purgatory: 2 Maccabees 12:38-46

3. Transubstantiation: John 6

4. Christmas: What we can't celebrate the birth of our Lord?

5. Obelisks:
Of historical interest is that no other obelisks survived the fall of Rome. Pope Sixtus V (1585-1590) made sure that is preserved as we see today. According to one author: "The legend says that in the Vatican Circus innumerable Christians, including St. Peter, were sentenced to death and that the reason this obelisk was later overturned, unlike all others in Rome was to be considered as the last witness of the martyrdom of St. Peter. "--Carl Hernz
---Nikki on 4/18/13


\\4. Christmas\\

Look up the article "Exploding the Mithras Myth."

\\5. Explain the obelix that's facing the Vatican\\

1. The word is spelled "obelisk".

2. It's not facing the Vatican (I assume you mean the Apostolic Palace, which is basically an office building) but is in St. Peter's square.

In any case this obelisk is nothing more than a monument from antiquity.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/13


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Nikki: I know very well that the Catholic Church is not mad at the protestants.

And that method (conditional baptism) is actually a very good way of solving any uncertainty!

Do you know: Does the Catholic Church mind if a member ALSO attends services at a church of another denomination (in this case Orthodox, as in Greece, where I do live sometimes, it is quite far to get to the closest Catholic Church)
---Peter9556 on 4/18/13


"Then, you blame others for not following Jesus, when we are the ones who take Him at His Word." Nikki

You think that's what the Vatican does? "take Him at His Word"? Let's see how Biblical some of the practices that's being carried out by Rome is conformed to the Word of God.

Let's start with:

1. Statues and idols that line the surroundings and inside the temple of worship, not to mention the collection of monies when praying to them
2. Purgatory
3. Transubstantiation
4. Christmas
5. Explain the obelix that's facing the Vatican

And you say that you "take Him at His Word"? Where in the Scriptures does it teach a Christian to do what the Vatican is doing?
---christan on 4/18/13


\\Guess you did not know that, right Cluny?\\

I'm sure you're going to tell me that Queen Anne is dead, too.

It's interesting that ancient Apostolic churches separated by serious Christological differences agree that the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

Not even Arius, who denied that Jesus is God Incarnate, doubted this Eucharistic doctrine.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/13


//When will you get through your head that it's NOT just the Roman Catholic Church that believes this?

Yes, there are common heretical beliefs held by those denominantions that believe their authority comes from apostolic succession.

However, there is NOTHING in apostolic succession that guarantees immunity from error. Even the Apostles themselves often disagreed with each other. James of the Jerusalem church was a real stickler for OT law, while Paul was not.

Guess you did not know that, right Cluny?
---e.lee7537 on 4/18/13


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MarkV, you miss understood me. Look at your own blog. You are blaming others what you are doing yourself.

Why can't you believe I can reason for myself?
Because I didn't leave the RCC, I didn't reason correctly?
You tell us to give you Scripture, we do this. If you don't like the versus, you make excuses to fit your views. Then, you blame others for not following Jesus, when we are the ones who take Him at His Word.
---nikki on 4/18/13


\\it was the RCC. \\

When will you get through your head that it's NOT just the Roman Catholic Church that believes this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/18/13


Peter9556, the RCC will accept all Christian baptism that is said in the Trinity as you stated. Because that is how Jesus demanded baptism to be said in Matthew 28:19

Now if you can not prove this was said in your Protestant baptism, the RCC will give a conditional baptism. That is done JUST IN CASE it's wasn't done correctly.
Conditional because GOD KNOWS HIMSELF if you was baptized in the Trinity. So, He isn't only to give you the Sacrament twice if you already have the mark of Christ on your soul.

The RCC isn't mad at any Protestant Church. It is some of the Protestants Churches who are still fighting us. We follow Christ.

Mark 9:40 "For whoever is not against us is for us."
---Nikki on 4/18/13


Nikki, you are taking this answers personal, you now say,

"Is it I, Cluny and Ruben on this site doing this, or the rest of you?"

It wasn't you, Cluny or Ruben who change the meanings of the passages, it was the RCC. We are doing nothing but learning where most of us came from and how deep in traditions we were ourselves. They did this not any of you. All your doing is defending their traditions, and as for Cluny, most of the traditions they have come from the RCC. Since the Catholic Church came together, they have always had final authority. And all of your are called by the RCC to believe what they say. So no, you are not responsible neither are we.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/13


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Nikki 2: When Jesus said "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you" He was speaking to unbelieving Jews who were Murmuring among themselves (v.John 6:43). The Jews in their willful and blindness could not see the real spiritual significance and truth behind Jesus statements. This was not an ordinance of communion for two reasons,
1. Communion had not been instituted yet.
2. if Jesus was referring to communion, then the passage would teach that anyone partaking of communion would receive eternal life.
It was an anology by Jesus, just as eating and drinking are necessary for physical life, so also is belief in His sacrifical death on the cross necessary for eternal life.
---Mark_V. on 4/18/13


//And I have written to ensure whether they do actually SAY 'Father, son, Holy Spirit' at the baptism' - I know that is what they TEACH

Baptismal regeneration? That is the Roman Church view despite the fact that there is virtually no evidence for it beyond the interpretation.
---e.lee7537 on 4/17/13


On one hand, 1 Peter 2:13,
Submit yourselves for the Lords sake to every human authority.

On the other hand, Acts 4:19,
Which is right in Gods eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges!

Romans 13:1-2 be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted.

Exodus 1:15-17
The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, When you see the baby is a boy, kill him, but if a girl, let her live. The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do, they let the boys live.
---bug on 4/17/13


Nikki,I feel depress for you? Really? I think sorry would be the correct word instead of depress. Wow, you sure know how to flatter yourself. Anyways, is it even Scriptural to love your "faith"?

All I know is I love God with all my heart and my soul, and that's because He first loved me. With such revelation, how can a Christian be depress? After all, He tells us, "...He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?"

And from this, I know that He has created reprobates simply to reject and hate Him, all for His glory when He sends them to eternal death.
---christan on 4/17/13


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**//Was the vast majority of Christians wrong all these centuries?

Obviously from church history we can see that all too often church offices were appointed by secular rulers and often went to the highest bidder.**

This has nothing to do with the issue of the Eucharist, which is what I thought we were discussing, especially with my question about whether the vast majority of Christians wrong about this subject.

Why did you suddenly change the subject?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/17/13


Nikki: After I was baptised in a protestant Church, I joined the Anglican Church, but the Anglicans take all baptisms to be valid for them. I take it that the catholics take the Anglican church to be valid, as the Anglican Church did not separate from the Catholic Church in a 'bad' way.

As I have written before, I have no problem with the Catholic Church. Do you know if the Catholic Church will have a problem with how I 'joined' - by baptism in a protestant church and then entry into a church of the Apostolic Succession?

And I have written to ensure whether they do actually SAY 'Father, son, Holy Spirit' at the baptism' - I know that is what they TEACH

Blessings
---Peter9556 on 4/17/13


Mark_V, I love Christianet. I am learning so much debating with you and Cluny.

'Hermeneutics is the art of interpreting..'

'An allegory is a device or character that is symbolic, rather than literal.'

Is it I, Cluny and Ruben on this site doing this, or the rest of you?

With all sincerity, you amaze me. You have the answers in your blogs.

We say take Jesus Words as He states them. Don't put meaning to them, explain them away or give lofty excuses for the words.
John 6, Matthew ch 6 or 23. etc

Words of comfort you gave to Christan goes both ways
It is easy to admit one is wrong with God. It is refreshing. God is so GENTLE, KIND and MERCIFUL. He doesn't make one feel foolish, stupid or dumb.
---Nikki on 4/17/13


//Was the vast majority of Christians wrong all these centuries?

Obviously from church history we can see that all too often church offices were appointed by secular rulers and often went to the highest bidder.

Ever wonder why the Eastern Church did not fall into the gross corruption of that the Western Church? Interested in your answer.
---e.lee7537 on 4/17/13


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\\But in the RCC, in order to create a tradition of their own, they turn what is allegorical to literal whenever they want. They sure take a lot of liberties with the Truth.\\

Actually, you have it backwards, it's the Protestants who turn what is literal to allegorical whenever they want.

It is not just the Roman Catholic Church that believes this.

ALL the pre-Reformation churches of Apostolic founding believe this, including those separated by miles, centuries, and even Christological differences from "Rome".

The FIRST Christians to deny this were Protestants--1500 years AFTER Jesus founded the church.

Was the vast majority of Christians wrong all these centuries?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/17/13


Nikki, I love all the verses in Scripture. It is wonderful to read and trust in the Word of God. Do you know why? Because it is inspired by God. Matt 23:2-3) is very easy to understand. You don't even need to learn Hermeneutics to undestand it. It is not a metaphor or allegorie as the allegorie of Christ been the bread. The bread is a symbol for Christ. Christ does not turn into a piece of bread or to a vine, or to a gate. But in the RCC, in order to create a tradition of their own, they turn what is allegorical to literal whenever they want. They sure take a lot of liberties with the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/13


\\ Many Catholics have come to the Truth by many different ways. \\

That's how they wind up Orthodox.

Protestants who are looking for the truth do, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/17/13


Bro. Christan, all I can do is read the passages for them slowly, give them what is said, and turn everything over to God from there. Many Catholics have come to the Truth by many different ways. God can bring the word not only in word only, as He does with many, but with power and the Holy Spirit with much assurance. (1 Thess. 1:4,5) That is all up to God if they are of the elect. I know that the Truth is hard to accept when people are deep in their theology. No one wants to admit they have been wrong for ten or twenty years. But the day God opens their eyes, no matter how long they have believed different they will see the Truth and believe it.
---Mark_V. on 4/17/13


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Christan, Amen brother! Enslaved to the God Man Jesus Christ!!

Ah, don't give up. Hang it there!
I have read Matthew 23 and the whole Gospel several times.

You are depress because you feel like I am hopeless, disturb, and stuck in my faith.
I love my faith! Love your Faith.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your HOPE, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be will of God, than for doing evil.

YOU CAN DO IT!
---Nikki on 4/17/13


MarkV, Jesus is clear. Why make it har?.
Heard of "Do as I say, but not as I do."

The Pharisees and Scribes would invent extra laws, but wouldn't follow their own invention. That is what Jesus means in V4.."They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people's shoulders, but they will NOT LIFT A FINGER TO MOVE THEM..."
Jesus isn't saying don't carry the heavy burdens. He saying don't invent burdensome laws and place them on other shoulder.
Don't show up places of honor at banquet and wearing holy items to show off: People who carry the bible everywhere and to the bathroom

BUT, YOU STILL HAVE TO DO WHATSOEVER THEY STILL YOU TO DO V3.
You and Christan seem to hate that verse, but it isn't going anywhere.
---Nikki on 4/17/13


Brother MarkV, Nikki is so engrossed with only verses 2 and 3 of Matthew 23 because she's enslaved in the RC worship of man. She's been advised or counsel to read the whole of Matthew 23 to have a full understanding of what Christ was teaching but instead, but she's so adamant about "HE SAID DO WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU!!". Which in the first place, isn't what Christ was even teaching.

I can only wipe the dust of my feet with regards to this issue that Nikki is stuck in.
---christan on 4/16/13


Nikki, it is you who is misinterpreting the passage. Now read it slow.
"Therefore whatsoever they tell you to observe, that observe and do" Here it is talking about the law of God. Then the passage continues with,
"But do not do according to their works" The works here refer to the heavey burdens (v.4) of extrabiblical traditions which they were putting on others shoulders of others, Jesus condemned that sort of legalism. If you studied the Bible, word for word, you would know this truth. They were not to kick them out of the seat they were in. Not to fight them, not to beat them up. Just to do the laws God demanded from them, nothing else.
---Mark_V. on 4/16/13


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Peter, you can write it anyways you want but the point I was making is Jesus Christ is not denominational or as Paul declared, "Is Christ divided?"

You see, denominations such as Orthodox, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterians, Protestant etc are most definitely not of Christ or Paul wouldn't have said, "Is Christ divided?" There's only One head and One body. Whereas denominations have Christ with many bodies, and according to Paul, that cannot be.

It's either you're a Christian or you're not. There's no such a thing as, "I'm a Protestant Christian or Orthodox Christian, etc". "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26
---christan on 4/16/13


---christan on 4/15/13: You have a point, but it was simply a bad way in which I wrote it!

The proper way to write it would be:

If it were possible for the three groups to (being guided by God) to work together to strengthen each other, then all three could become closer to God than they are now
---Peter on 4/15/13


Nikki, the passages in (Matt. 23:2,3) nowhere tells us that the Pharisees and Scribes were given authority by God to seat in Moses seat...What they did was to seat as if they were the highest authority of the For that Jesus condemned them.
---Mark_V.

Why do you read words and change them in your head. Read Matt 23:2-3 again. Of course Jesus condemned them! They were EVIL MEN. Jesus said they TOOK THE SEAT OF MOSES. sneak, ran, force, but still they SAT in the CHAIR.
What does Jesus say?
'Over throw them': No, no,
'Kick them out': No, no, no,

HE SAID DO WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU!!
Shocking isn't it. That's my point.

Jesus command us to do whatever He wants. We must obey and follow.
He is God, we are not.
---Nikki on 4/15/13


"So what the three churches (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) should really be doing is working TOGETHER to help each other to come closer to God." Peter

Well, the problem with this theory of yours according to the Holy Bible and the testimony of Jesus Christ is no one gets to choose whether they get to know God or Jesus Christ by their "own will". Scripture is explicit about this:

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:11, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
---christan on 4/15/13


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Nikki, the passages in (Matt. 23:2,3) nowhere tells us that the Pharisees and Scribes were given authority by God to seat in Moses seat. If you read it you will not find such comments about God given them authority. What they did was to seat as if they were the highest authority of the law. They set themselves as the highest authority, something they claimed for themselves. There was a legitimate sense in which the priest and Levites had authority to decide matters of the Law (Deut. 17:9) but the Scribes and Pharisees had gone beyond any legitimate authority and were adding human tradition to the Word of God (Matt. 15:3-9) For that Jesus condemned them.
---Mark_V. on 4/15/13


Nikki: 'Why do so many refuse to believe that Jesus gave authority to men on earth?'

I do not refuse to believe that.

However, looking over the OT, there were times, for example the exile in Babylon, when the Hebrews erred, and then, while they kept their 'seat of Moses', they were still banished

So what the three churches (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) should really be doing is working TOGETHER to help each other to come closer to God

I greatly respect the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but still there must be some error (as there obviously is in the Protestant group!)

Blessings
---Peter on 4/14/13


//You also believe God gave them the authority to speak the law to the people.

All authority is given by God but those in authority have often abused their authority.

And such was the case of ecclesiastical leaders including many who were Roman Catholic.

History is a good reference to that effect.
---e.lee7537 on 4/13/13


Strange isn't it?
Nikki

Very!
He received from God the Father... This is my beloved Son!

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time (by the will of man:)
but holy men of God spake as they were moved (by the Holy Ghost.)

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking (by the Spirit of God) calleth Jesus accursed:
(But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.)

When he shall have put down all rule and (all authority) and power.
(For he must reign), till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/14/13


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So you believe it was God who gave them the authority to sit in Moses' seat. You also believe God gave them the authority to speak the law to the people. Do I have this right? The authority was given by God!
So you don't believe they took it by force, right?
I'm sure if I asked one of them, they would agree!
That must be why they couldn't understand Christ, because they asked, who gave you this authority?---TheSeg

Yes, they didn't want to give up their seat, their authority. Jesus was telling them to keep it and told the people to follow them for now.

Have you notice in Mark 1:39
Mark states
So He went into THEIR SYNAGOGUES, preaching and driving out demons throughout the whole of Galilee.

Strange isn't it?
---Nikki on 4/13/13


..Matt 22:2-3, but the KJV says: "Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Jesus is definitely not teaching, "DO WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU" but..---christan

Our versions are the same except yours is using old English.
'bid' means 'tell'

In your version, Jesus is still telling them to do whatsoever they bid them to do, but do not copy their works or actions.

Odd that you understand why Jesus is telling them, not to copy them, but you left out the 1st command.

1st command: Do whatsoever they tell you

2nd command: Don't copy them.
---Nikki on 4/13/13


Nikki, I don't know what version you have when you quoted Matthew 22:2-3, but the KJV says: "Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Jesus is definitely not teaching, "DO WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU" but rather telling us what the Pharisees were really about, that's why are known to be self-righteous and never righteous in Christ.

My goodness, you can't even understand the context of the verses you quoted. Is it any wonder why you worship your Pope and his cohorts?
---christan on 4/12/13


So you believe it was God who gave them the authority to sit in Moses' seat. You also believe God gave them the authority to speak the law to the people. Do I have this right? The authority was given by God!
So you don't believe they took it by force, right?

I'm sure if I asked one of them, they would agree!
That must be why they couldn't understand Christ, because they asked, who gave you this authority?

I find it very similar to what going on here in something Christ said!
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

You must also believe this is given authority?
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/12/13


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Nikki, it's one thing to quote verses from the Bible and another to understand what it's saying and teaching. Quoting only Matthew 23:2,3 would be incomplete and untrue to what Christ was even teaching. Matthew 23 must be read from verses 1 to 39 to know what Christ was speaking of and about.

And when you read the whole chapter, do not even think Christ was speaking about the Pharisees only. For in today's context, it resembles one like the Vatican and their little harlots (the denominations), if you have eyes to see. Go do a checklist according to Matthew 23 and see how many of the boxes you'll be checking by the time you're down reading the whole chapter.
---christan on 4/12/13


Perhaps "many" can not receive His word concerning the subject of spiritual authority.---josef

How true, but Jesus shares any portion of authority He wishes.
Only the one with ALL authority can chose what or how much authority to give.
Who are they to decide what authority or how much authority Jesus can share and not share?

In Matt 23:2-3
He demonstrated He was willing to share His Father's authority first with Moses and any one who came after Moses.
That's why it called it the 'chair of Moses'.
Not observe the commandments Moses gave the Pharisees, Scribes and you all. No, Jesus said observe whatsoever they tell you.

WHAT A BROAD SCOPE OF AUTHORITY Jesus is willing to share.
---Nikki on 4/12/13


Please explain what you mean by gave men authority.
What can your authority do for you that God hasn't already?
Peace---TheSeg on 4/11/13

Jesus knew the Pharisees and Scribes were not behaving as God wanted them to behave. He knew they were hypocritical, mean and evil.

But, He still told them to do whatsoever those evil men told them to do. AUTHORITY to tell you what to do.

Ever heard of this saying?:
'Believe the truth even if it comes from a hellish mouth'
---Nikki on 4/12/13


---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13

I am 100% on the right track
Anyone can forgive, we all forgive. If some stole from you, you can forgive, and you should forgive, but only Jesus can cleanse us from sin

forgive ( all can do this)
cleanse ( only Jesus)
---francis on 4/12/13


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"have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example.
Can't you see that your Vatican resembles the description Christ rebuked the Pharisees about?---christan on 4/11/13

And yet, Jesus told them to "DO WHATSOEVER THEY TELL YOU"

No one is telling you to be a priest or do what they do.
Your problem is YOU REFUSE TO DO WHATSOEVER THE VATICAN TELLS YOU.

How do you square that in your mind???
---Nikki on 4/12/13


Francis - I do not believe you are on the right track on this forgiveness thing.

Note that King David who impregnated another man's wife and then had her husband whacked confessed that against God only had he sinned.

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
---e.lee7537 on 4/12/13


And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not!

So, why can't you follow a man?
Because it's not a man you follow, but the spirit of your Father in Heaven.
That dwells in you!

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have!
Joh_3:10?

Verily, verily John 3:11-12
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/12/13


ANY, AND EVERYBODY HAS THE AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SINS

Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


But only Jesus has the authority to FORGIVE US and CLEANSE us from our sins

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
---francis on 4/12/13


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"Why do so many refuse to believe that Jesus gave authority to men on earth?"
Perhaps "many" can not receive His word concerning the subject of spiritual authority.
As Jesus Himself said "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."Mat 28:18
However, He does share at least a portion of that authority with His disciples, "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy,.." Luk 10:19 (NKJV)
---josef on 4/12/13


"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17) So, yes there are men whom God trusts to lead us. If God trusts them, surely He expects us to trust the leaders whom He approves and trusts.

And Paul gives the qualifications for who may be considered to be trusted to "take care of the church of God", in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

God gave Paul, a man, the authority to give us these qualifications. But many called Protestant and Catholic directly disobey these standards. If they so disobey, they are not "blameless", not the ones whom God trusts.
---willie_c: on 4/12/13


Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and if he repent, forgive him.

Not quite the same thing.
Some feel they can forgive sin.
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/11/13


Why do so many refuse to believe that Jesus gave authority to men on earth?
---Nikki on 4/11/13


John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

Jesus did give authority, I do not know of anyone who denies that.
---francis on 4/11/13


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Nikki
Why do so many refuse to believe that Jesus gave authority to men on earth?
Maybe it's because it's just not there.

Unless! This is what you're talking about:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You might have authority over your own words.
But I believe that's about as far as it goes.

This he did say:
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
All authority!

Please explain what you mean by gave men authority.
What can your authority do for you that God hasnt already?
Peace
---TheSeg on 4/11/13


And you think that Matthew 23:2,3 stopped at the Pharisees only? How sadly wrong you are for the spirit of the Pharisees is so alive and well today. And the numbers are far greater and grander today.

Look no further than in your own backyard called the Vatican. See the parade of high priests dressed in robes and gowns and how they "have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example."

Was this how Jesus built His "church"? Far be from it! That's why He said what He said in Matthew 23:2,3. Can't you see that your Vatican resembles the description Christ rebuked the Pharisees about?
---christan on 4/11/13


The fact is that the office of High Priest was usually one that had both the political secular influence as well as the money to buy into that office.

The chair of Moses, is really a reference to the laws passed downward to Israel but like the Roman Church it also became a corrupted institution having invented doctrines or expanded doctrines to suit their own hierarchy.
---e.lee7537 on 4/11/13


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