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Scripture For Perpetual Virgin

Where is the Scriptural proof that mother Mary was a perpetual virgin? Where do the Scriptures indicate that Mary never lost her virginity, even while she was married to a red-blooded man, named Joseph?

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 ---Gordon on 4/30/13
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Gordon, many terms in the Bible are symbolic expressions and there are also coded words. First born or first born son refers to the son to be sacrificed just as Abraham has done.
---Joseph_ROY on 5/4/13


Nikki, What I despise are lies. I know that GOD, above all, hates lies. It's the lies that the Roman Catholic church clings to and teaches which I have an issue with. And, above all, GOD has an issue with these lies, of the RCC, concerning Mary, the Apostle Peter, Purgatory, etc. If the RCC would stop teaching falsely about these people and issues, she would do well! But, until then, she is incurring GOD's displeasure. Mine also, for I follow GOD's Truths in HIS Written Word. So, you can accuse me and make me out to be "angry", as if I had some kind of anger-management problem. lol. Go ahead. All that IS is an attempt on your part, to DIVERT from facing the issue of RCC's lies. Sorry, sistah, won't work. Get REAL. :-)
---Gordon on 5/4/13


\\I cited other scriptures that names Jesus' four brothers and says He also had sisters.\\

I have cited scripture where "brother" clearly does not mean "of the same mother."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/4/13


Jed, Amen! What a beautiful picture of Mary, a humble servant of the LORD, as she remained a virgin until after she gave Birth to the Christ Child. Maybe she stayed that way until after Yahushua turned 12 (His Bar-Mitzvah into Adulthood, when He went about his Father's Business in the Temple!) After the Birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary were finally able to express their love for each other in a sexually intimate way. As a result, they could reap GOD's Blessings, not only of sexual intimacy, but of also having more children resulting from that sexual union. What Grace to see this man and woman, so honoured to give Birth to our Saviour Yahushua. And, as a result of walking in GOD's Will they experienced HIS Blessings, Favour and Smile.
---Gordon on 5/4/13


Gordon are you mad because I told you not to take God's name in vain? That is the second commandment you know or the third for you all.
Why such anger?

This is a Christian website. Why don't you show your Christian side?
Relax.
---nikki on 5/3/13




\\The literal meaning is that he is the FIRST BOY FROM THE WOMB, even if a girl was BORN FIRST.\\

Not in Jewish law, Nikki.

If a woman has a female child--or miscarriage, or abortion, or stillbirth--first, then a son, this son is NOT called "firstborn son," and is not subject to being redeemed, which is still practiced by observant Jews.

Keep on blessing me, Jed. I sincerely hope you don't bankrupt yourself in the process.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


\\Wrong again.

I never said this.

But it does NOT mean that the woman had other children, either.
---Cluny on 5/3/13


No one here has suggested otherwise! You were the one who brought up "first born son", as if it were proof that Mary did NOT continue having children, which makes no sense at all. Why have you wasted all our time trying to prove that "first born son" doesn't indicate there were other children when no one else here ever said it does? I cited other scriptures that names Jesus' four brothers and says He also had sisters.
---Jed on 5/3/13


I KNOW Jesus had brothers and sisters because the Bible says he did. That is enough for me. And nothing that Nikki's or Cluny's church says is going to convince me that the Bible is wrong and they are right.
---Jed on 5/3/13

Cluny isn't Catholic. How many times does he have to tell you all.

The Bible never states these brother are Mary's sons.

I have a brother that isn't my mother's son.

These same brothers you read from the Bibles states another man as their father, NOT JOESPH.

Yes, please believe in the Bible, and not in your own interpretation of the Bible.
---Nikki on 5/3/13


\\ Cluny and Nikki are actually trying to convince us that "first born son" means "only son".\\

Wrong again.

I never said this.

But it does NOT mean that the woman had other children, either.

It merely means that her first pregnancy concluded with the delivery of a LIVING MALE child.

Should a woman have fraternal twins, and the first to be born is a daughter, then a son, this son is NOT considered the "firstborn son" in Jewish law, and is not subject to the law of redemption.

BTW, if a woman's first pregnancy concludes in the birth of a LIVING male child that is born by C-section, I don't know if this is "first born son" in Jewish law.

Glory to Jesus Christ
---Cluny on 5/3/13


I think all of us (who are not Nikki or Cluny of course) can see exactly where Catholics get their reputation for being a false religion, because that's exactly what they are. They have to twist simple words like "until" and "first born son" that have such a clear meaning and try to give them a completely knew meaning just shows you to what lengths they are willing to go in order to push their traditions. I KNOW Jesus had brothers and sisters because the Bible says he did. That is enough for me. And nothing that Nikki's or Cluny's church says is going to convince me that the Bible is wrong and they are right.
---Jed on 5/3/13




The "first born son" is the son that brakes the mother's womb. The term is NOT indicative of whether he is an only child or not, only that he is the first born of all her children. I'm embarrassed that I have to explain what the term "first born" means full grown adults It means just what it says, FIRST BORN. Esau was the first born son, Jacob was the second born. Cluny and Nikki are actually trying to convince us that "first born son" means "only son". Just as they are trying to convince us that the word "until" actually means "until, and forever afterwards" which is clearly not what the word "until" means. Why can't they just accept the words for their actual meaning?
---Jed on 5/3/13


Nikki, I do not trust you to quote Scripture. You believe the lies that the Roman church teaches about Mary. You don't worship GOD like you think you do. You worship the Roman Catholic church. She is your master. She is your "God". You believe her fallacious interpretations of GOD's Written Word over the true meaning of GOD's Written Words! You simply cannot be trusted. You need to get into the Truth, as it's Written and inspired by GOD's Spirit, and stop trusting in religious-appearing men who'd rather hold fast to false traditions than to what GOD's Word is really saying. I don't trust you to talk about Scripture one bit. You willingly believe lies, thinking that those lies are "truths". Wake-up.
---Gordon on 5/3/13


\\First born does not always mean only child born. And, it certainly didn't mean that when Yahushua (Jesus) was Born. Regardless of what the RCC wrongfully and woefully teaches.\\

You don't get it, do you?

I'm talking about what "first born SON" (the phrase in Matthew 1, not merely "first born") means in a Jewish context.

BTW, Samuelbb, the goddess Ishtar was worshiped with temple prostitution, so she could hardly have been a virgin.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


omg, Nikki, The "first born" means only THAT, "the FIRST one to be born"! Like when Cain was Adam's first born, then came Abel. A "first born" does not always mean "the ONLY one born". It means what it says, "the FIRST born".---Gordon on 5/3/13

omg is still taking God's name in vain. God isn't stupid. He can read texts word.

Before you insult others, why don't you THINK FIRST, so you don't look foolish.

To Jed, I asked:
Explain 'first born son'?---Nikki on 5/2/13

First born son, does NOT mean first born.

The literal meaning is that he is the FIRST BOY FROM THE WOMB, even if a girl was BORN FIRST.

Wait and think, before jumping into an debate.
---Nikki on 5/3/13


Cluny, Unsurprisingly you did not read my comment thoroughly before you raced off to respond to it. I said, (in plain American English), "A 'first born' does not always mean 'the ONLY one born'." I said that, but.....somehow....you just kinda "missed" that part of my comment. You interpreted my comment as saying what YOU "believed" I was saying, not what I actually did say. So, if you can't read and understand my comments correctly, then, How on GOD's green Earth can you be trusted to understand the Big Man's Comments (the Bible)? First born does not always mean only child born. And, it certainly didn't mean that when Yahushua (Jesus) was Born. Regardless of what the RCC wrongfully and woefully teaches.
---Gordon on 5/3/13


Are you saying that you don't believe in the Virgin Birth?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13

Really? You ask me this question?

You and I both accept the virgin birth. This you already know. Rhetorical questions, bah humbug.

I am pointing out that Joseph accepted Jesus as his own son and raised Jesus as his own son. Indeed, Matthew's geneaology lists Joseph and not Mary to get back to Abraham. Jesus is "considered" Joseph's son in this geneaology.

If then Jesus was considered Joseph's firstborn son, that would refute your claims of children from a previous marriage.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/3/13


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\\Ishtar was a perpetual virgin became very popular with many women in the Roman Empire.\\

You don't know your history very well. Ishtar, the goddess of fertility, was NOT a virgin.

Try again.

**... and way back then they were engaged for at least a year.**

BCV to prove your point, please, shira.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


Having said this last sentence, I now look at Matthew's geneaology of Jesus, and it comes though Joseph. To me this indicates that Jesus was indeed the firstborn of Joseph...All this creates a dilemma for you. How do you explain Joseph's other children if Jesus is his firstborn?---Mark_Eaton

Then you over looked Abraham which was listed first.
ISSAC wasn't Abraham FIRST BORN SON. Remember Ishmael?

The Genealogy only states how Jesus is connected to Abraham.
The same goes for Joseph. No dilemma, He was Jesus FOSTER father. Plus, I am not saying this, but Joseph could have other wives that gave Joseph children after Jesus was born.
But, my understanding is the the Church states Joseph only had Mary as a wife.
---Nikki on 5/3/13


\\omg, Nikki, The "first born" means only THAT, "the FIRST one to be born"!\\

Not always.

I've already explained the meaning of "first-born son" in a Jewish context.

And yes, it CAN mean the only child ever born.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


\\I accept this definition. However, there is more to it. Exactly who's firstborn son is Jesus?

I accept that Jesus is God the Father's firstborn son. I accept that Jesus is Mary's firstborn son. I also accept that Jesus is Joseph's firstborn son. \\

Are you saying that you don't believe in the Virgin Birth?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


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Abraham-not the first born
Isaac-no
Jacob-no
Judah-no
Etc.
What does Matthew 1 have to do with firstborn?
---micha9344 on 5/3/13


"Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact..." Ruben

Agreed
---scott on 5/3/13


omg, Nikki, The "first born" means only THAT, "the FIRST one to be born"! Like when Cain was Adam's first born, then came Abel. A "first born" does not always mean "the ONLY one born". It means what it says, "the FIRST born". Why don't you plant your nose in the Scriptures more? It looks like Mother church's incense has made you a little bit dizzy upstairs! It makes you read things into the Scriptures that aren't even there! Like twisting Scriptures to make them conform to RCC's Marian doctrine!
---Gordon on 5/3/13


2. I've already mentioned the technical meaning of "firstborn son."
---Cluny on 5/2/13

I accept this definition. However, there is more to it. Exactly who's firstborn son is Jesus?

I accept that Jesus is God the Father's firstborn son. I accept that Jesus is Mary's firstborn son. I also accept that Jesus is Joseph's firstborn son.

Having said this last sentence, I now look at Matthew's geneaology of Jesus, and it comes though Joseph. To me this indicates that Jesus was indeed the firstborn of Joseph.

All this creates a dilemma for you. How do you explain Joseph's other children if Jesus is his firstborn?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/3/13


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Thank you Grandma, lets start with Alesse.
...Lastly, Alesse alters the lining of the uterus-the endometrium, making it less receptive to an embryo.- information from the manufacturer

Embryo is a fertilized egg. As Cluny and I claims it stops implantation.

Implantation happens during early pregnancy. The embryo attaches itself to the uterus. This is what begins to form the placenta. For many woman this happens without them even knowing they are pregnant.-ASK

Don't believe the big lie.

That's why I wanted names, because you can see they want you to think it a birth control, which is both a truth and a lie.
It only control the birth of the baby. It doesn't stop the conception of the baby. Which means ABORTION.
---Nikki on 5/2/13


Jed, since you won't debate me, will you at least answer Cluny?

Explain 'first born son'?

It is used when the boy is the only boy and the only child.

According to your logical, if the Bible uses the word 'first' there has to be a 'second'.

How does the parents know they are going to be blessed with another child, and for that fact, another boy?

Which isn't the case in may verses in the Bible, yet the term 'first born son' is used.
---Nikki on 5/2/13


Willie C., the term virgin refers to a person who has never had intercourse. It has nothing to do with weather the person was legitimately married. A person who has only had intercourse inside of their marriage covenant has still lost their virginity, they have just lost it to their spouse. Virginity has nothing to do with whether you are married or not.
---Jed on 5/2/13


Nikki, you said,

"the Jewish people had their faith rituals BEFORE written ones.
"How dare you call Jesus' death pagan." Everyone knows the sign of the cross represents all 4 Gospel's accounts of Jesus' death."

You accuse me of something I never said about Jesus.
Also, only catholics know what the sign of the cross means.
Also, Jewish people have no faith in the Messiah. As for the Bible, as each book was been written, they began to accumulate all 66 books which make the Bible and is now closed. No more Word of God outside the Bible. Anyone claiming they have additional words of God, can never proof it comes from God. The Word created the Church of Jesus Christ. And Jews do not have faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/13


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I don't see anywhere that the New Testament goes into this subject. But it does say that Joseph did not know Mary until after she had Jesus. Of course, the Bible does not go into whether or not Joseph was "red-blooded". Not all men are. And I don't see where the Bible says that by becoming one with one's spouse that one "loses" one's virginity . . . not if the union is legitimate.
---willie_c: on 5/2/13


Grandma is correct, all of those brands do prevent pregnancy primarily by suppressing ovulation, and secondarily (if by chance they fail at successfully preventing ovulation) by thickening the cervical mucus to hinder sperm movement limiting the sperm's ability to fertilize the egg.

There was simply no need to name the specific birth control pills because they ALL do this. In fact, It would be a better challenge to try to name any birth control pill that DOESN'T work by suppressing ovulation, with the exception of Plan B, which is taken after intercourse, instead of on a daily basis prior to intercourse like regular birth control pills. In fact, even Plan B can work by preventing ovulation depending on when it's taken in the cycle.
---Jed on 5/2/13


I know the meaning of the word "until". It means "up to the point of..."

"But he had no union with her until (up to the point that) she gave birth to a son."

Cluny and Nikki are trying to convince us that the word "until" means "up to the point of, and also afterwards", which is NOT what "until" means. When you go to such great lengths to try to obscure the meaning of such a simple word that has a simple and clear meaning, then I know you are twisting scripture.
---Jed on 5/2/13


Nikki, this is in answer to your question on the Abortion thread. I found it on WebMD

"There are two main types of birth control pills: combination pills and progestin-only pills. Most pills are available in both a 21-day or a 28-day pack. They are often classified on the amount of estrogen and/or the amount and type of progestin.
Combination pills. These contain the hormones estrogen and progestin. Most birth control pills are combination pills. They're equally effective at preventing pregnancy -- again, when taken correctly.

These are the names of them. I got these on Livestrong.

"Alesse, Brevicon, Demulen, Desogen, Levlen, Loestrin, Norinyl, Ortho-Cept, Ortho-Cyclin, Ortho-Novum, Yasmin and Yaz. "
---Grandma on 5/2/13


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Jed, can you debate or just call names and insult people?

Sorry, if it is hard for you to accept challenging questions. I don't believe in taking information from people just because they said it.
I can read for myself, and the Good Lord has blessed me with some COMMON SENSE.

I don't know about being a good Catholic or not.
God is the Judge.

1 Peter 3:15 WHY DON'T YOU DO THE SAME.
---Nikki on 5/2/13


\\ "Yadha" which means been acquainted sexually with a man. The same for Gen. 4:1 it also speaks of "knew" again means \\

Actually, contrary to popular wisdom, YADHA has sexual meaning in only 90 of the 1000 times it appears in the Hebrew scriptures--little more than 1%.

\\"Yadha." In Matt. 1:25 speaks of Joseph "did not "know" her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus"\\

1. Matthew was written in Greek, not Hebrew.

2. I've already mentioned the technical meaning of "firstborn son."

3. I've already mentioned the implications of EOS in Matthew 28.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/2/13


MarkV, you are mistaken. I give the account of the word 'know'.
I said 'until' .
---nikki on 5/2/13


Nikki, I now know to expect no better from you. Congratulations, you have proved yourself to be a true Catholic on these blogs. And that is no compliment. As always, you put your denominational doctrine before reality and before what the Bible actually says. You will stay true to the doctrine no matter what. A true Catholic. You should be very pleased with yourself indeed. In the end when you answer for why you rejected God's Word, at least you can say you were a good Catholic.
---Jed on 5/2/13


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Nikki, you gave, Luke 1:34 Mary said,
I do not "know" a man" The word "know" means "Ginosko" sexual relations. She had not had sexual relations. Then gave Luke 1:24, here woman conceive many times after after having sexual relations. Then gave,
"1 Samuel 1:19
...When Elkanah had relations with his wife Hannah..."
relations not mentioned, but "knew" means "Yadha" which means been acquainted sexually with a man. The same for Gen. 4:1 it also speaks of "knew" again means "Yadha." In Matt. 1:25 speaks of Joseph "did not "know" her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus"
---Mark_V. on 5/2/13


Jed, I don't care what you think. You refuse to give answer whenever someone asks you.
In the abortion section I asked you to tell me the names of the the birth control pills. Instead you tell me to shut up.

"You need to shut your mouth because you don't know what you are talking about."
---Jed on 5/2/13

You could have SHUT ME up by giving me the proof with a NAME of the pill.
If you can't debate, than you need to shut up.

The Bible isn't afraid to use the word relations.
You left out the quote I said about the Greek word 'until'.

Debate with logical and stop being childish.
---Nikki on 5/2/13


Nikki, The fact that the Apostle John was given custody of mother Mary does not "PROVE" that "Yahushua's mother Mary had no other children besides Yahushua"! It doesn't prove it anymore than YOUR and the RCC's belief that Matthew 12:46-47 "doesn't prove" the belief that Yahushua did have half-brothers and sisters! The Scriptures are worded so subtly that either way CAN be read into it. But, it's those who accept and receive Understanding by GOD's Holy Spirit who can see the Truth. Not those who rely on "Mother church" to interpret the Bible for them!
---Gordon on 5/2/13


The Bible isn't afraid to say the word relations. Even Mary states she never had relations with any man Luke 1:34. ---Nikki on 5/2/13

There you go twisting scripture again. This was before she gave birth to Jesus when she said this! No one is arguing with the fact that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. How deceitful Nikki, I really thought you were better than that.
---Jed on 5/2/13


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The Bible isn't afraid to say the word relations. Even Mary states she never had relations with any man Luke 1:34.

Even Luke 1:24 speaks of Elizabeth conceiving after her husband came home.

1 Samuel 1:19
...When Elkanah had relations with his wife Hannah...

Genesis 4:1
The man had relations with his wife Eve... Many more.

But in Matthew 1:25- The Greek word translated "until" does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it.

Looking at Jesus' request to John at the foot of the Cross proves Jesus had NO BROTHERS.

JOHN 19:24-25
---Nikki on 5/2/13


scott, you are right. it does not matter what we know about mary. God used her to send His Son into the world. she was a Godly woman and way back then they were engaged for at least a year. I can imagine Joseph was a little worried about people running their mouths talking about an unwed mother. that may have contributed to them not find a room in the inn. if it was important God would have put it in our bible. the important part is He sent His Son to die for our sin.
---shira4368 on 5/2/13


I have seen from many here good biblical sholarship and truth about the fact that the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is a false doctrine. I congratulate all those here who have shown from the Bible and even history that this is a fabricated doctrine.

It is now up to the HOLY SPIRIT to bring conviction and willingess to follow GOD above human tradition. We need to be following JESUS not men. Maranthatha and Agape to all.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/2/13


Again, the Bible says that Jesus had at least four brother and two sisters. The Bible also says that Joseph did not have relations with Mary until she gave birth to Jesus, indicating that they did have relations afterward. The Bible makes no mention of Joseph being previously married and makes no mention anywhere of his supposed previous children. Also, nowhere does the Bible even suggest that Mary remained a virgin. Mary was a married women and married couples have relations. It's pretty clear. Any claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin is not biblical. The idea is presented nowhere in scripture, actually just the opposite. Now you can believe the Bible or you can believe the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox church. You decide.
---Jed on 5/1/13


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\\His mother Mary WAS ESPOUSED (MARRIED) to Joseph, \\

Wrong again, Gordon.

Betrothed/Espoused was less than marriage, but much more serious and binding than the modern western engagement.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


What does it matter?
---Scott1 on 5/1/13


But scott, in Matthew 1:2, ADELFOI clearly does NOT mean "brothers off the same mother."

How can the same word mean one thing" in Matthew 13 and the EXACT OPPOSITE in Matthew 1?

THAT is the real point.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


NIKKI, MATTHEW 1:18-25. "Now the Birth of Yahushua...was on this wise: When as His mother Mary WAS ESPOUSED (MARRIED) to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER (this doesn't mean "before they were united in marriage", Nikki, because the Verse plainly states that THEY WERE ALREADY MARRIED! So, "before they came together" MEANS "before they HAD SEX"), she was found with Child..."
"...the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a Dream, saying, 'Joseph...fear not to take unto thee Mary THY WIFE..." It says that Mary IS ALREADY Joseph's wife. And he is not to fear KEEPING HER as his wife.
In Verses 24-25, it says, "Then Joseph...KNEW her not TILL she had brought forth her firstborn Son..."
---Gordon on 5/1/13


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Catholic Encyclopedia and ADELFOS- Cluny

No Cluny.

The comments are not just generally about Adelphos but, rather, it is the New Catholic Encylopedia's admission with respect to its use at Matthew 13:55, 56 where it carries ...

"the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world..."


That's the point.
---scott on 5/1/13


\I remember when the Movie Joseph and Mary showed them about the same age.\\

Movies are excellent sources of theological and spiritual truths, aren't they?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits regarding the Greek words adelphoi and adelphai, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these "have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world..." (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337)
---scott on 4/30/13

And it gones on and says:

Toward the end of the 4th century (c. 380) Helvidius in a work now lost pressed this fact in order to attribute to Mary other children besides Jesus so as to make her a model for mothers of larger families. St. Jerome, motivated by the Church's traditional faith in Mary's perpetual virginity, wrote a tract against Helvidius (A.D. 383) in which he developed an explanation ...
---Ruben on 5/1/13


Show me scriptural proof Joseph had relations with Mary.
---Nikki on 5/1/13

Show me your Scriptural proof that Joseph did not have relations with Mary.

We can both use this straw man argument.

Your "proof" comes from the Protoevangelium of James, proven by scholars to be pseudoephigraphical, not written by James the brother of Jesus.

Any book written in the middle of the second century, over one hundred years after the actual events, by an unknown author, must be viewed with scepticism and not belief. Especially when it introduces new information not known anywhere else and all the people who could have refuted it are dead.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/1/13


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Is not his mother the woman called Mary, and his brothers [Greek, adelphoi] James and Joseph and Simon and Jude? His sisters [Greek, adelphai], too, are they not all here with us?'"

---scott on 4/30/13

Scott,

Genesis 14:14:

When Abram heard that his adelphos..

Here Lot is described as a brother of Abraham!

Galatians 1:19

"But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother."

We have the names of the Apostles, there were two James: Which one is Jesus brother?
---Ruben on 5/1/13


The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Marys trip to Bethlehem, or their trip to Egypt, or their trip back to Nazareth?

---Jed on 4/30/13

And Jed if Mary had others Sons and daughters why not mention to them have you seen your brother Jesus:

"and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance."(LK 2:44)
---Ruben on 5/1/13


I remember when the Movie Joseph and Mary showed them about the same age. The RCC condemned the movie because it did not agree with their teaching. Mary was not proclaimed as a perpetual virgin until the goddess Ishtar was a perpetual virgin became very popular with many women in the Roman Empire. This doctrine from the 4th century did not come from the early church. Like the Assumption of Mary that did not truly become doctrine till 1950. Even though this doctrine was not taught in the early church.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/13


Scott, you quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia about the meaning of ADELFOS.

I showed you how ADELFOS doesn't always mean "of the same mother" in the Bible itself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


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scott, I hate to disappoint you with regards to your "Catholic Encyclopedia" as your source of truth. When the Holy Bible was completed by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that's the source of Truth. There's only One Truth but many lies.

And that One Truth came in the flesh and testified to the world, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

You see, there are many sources which tries to relate themselves to the Holy Bible as one but falls flat when being compared to what is written in the Bible. Your encyclopedia is one such.
---christan on 4/30/13


\\Where do the Scriptures indicate that Mary never lost her virginity, even while she was married to a red-blooded man, named Joseph?\\

The same verses that indicate Joseph was red-blooded, Gordon.

Jed, you deny the perpetual virginity of the Virgin on the basis of your own biased reading of the Scriptures.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


Show me scriptural proof Joseph had relations with Mary.

When you realize you can't, you will have to use logic in assuming that the Mother of Jesus is a Virgin since she didn't remarry after Joesph's death.
---Nikki on 5/1/13


If we are to believe you, Jed...
---Cluny on 4/30/13


I asked no one to believe me, I only ask them to believe what the Bible says. YOU ask people to ignore what the Bible says and believe in your theory that has no scriptural support, because as always with you Cluny, denominational doctrine comes before Biblical truth. You want to present Mary as some super-human deity which is an unbiblical portrayal of who she actually was. All I ask of anyone is to simply read the Bible and take it for what it says, period. Not try to twist scripture to support a preconceived theory that is a total fabrication by denominational founders.
---Jed on 5/1/13


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First off, Joseph the Betrothed was an older widower with children from his first marriage.
---Cluny on 4/30/13


The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Marys trip to Bethlehem, or their trip to Egypt, or their trip back to Nazareth?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Cluny opposes this truth not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is a clear violation of biblical marriage laws.
---Jed on 4/30/13


\\Now Cluny tells us that Mary remained a virgin her whole life, even though there is no biblical evidence to support this, to the contrary. Who are you going to believe? Cluny or the Bible?\\

If we are to believe you, Jed, when the end of the world comes, Jesus will no longer be with us.

Please read my comment on the Greek word EOS.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/13


"And that's Truth to you?" christan

It's a question of biblical language (Greek, Hebrew, etc.) and it's intrinsic meaning. This has proven to be a challenge for you in any discussion...unable or unwilling to look deeper than the pages and the archaic (and often inaccurate) language of your KJV.

Additionally, the fact that the New Catholic Encyclopedia comments on Matt 13 in way that undermines a fundamental Catholic teaching is both noteworthy and fascinating.
---scott on 4/30/13


The Bible is clear. The Bible tells us that Joseph had no relations with Mary UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus, indicating that once Jesus was born they consimated their marriage. The Bible also tells us that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters. The Bible also tells us that Mary and Joseph were godly people, and that it is ungodly for spouses to withhold physical gratification from eachother. Godly spouses have marital relations. Now Cluny tells us that Mary remained a virgin her whole life, even though there is no biblical evidence to support this, to the contrary. Who are you going to believe? Cluny or the Bible?
---Jed on 4/30/13


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Part 2:

Furthermore, the same Greek particle "eos" is used in Matthew 28:20. If in Matthew 1:25, EOS means that Mary had other children and marital relations, then in 28:20, EOS means that at the end of the world, Jesus will no longer be with us.

May I also add that the perpetual virginity of Mary was NEVER questioned in the West until AFTER the Reformation? Even John Calvin defended this.

Or did the truth come about this (admittedly minor) matter only 1500 years AFTER the Apostles died?

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 4/30/13


"Your argument is with the New Catholic Encyclopedia." scott

And that's Truth to you? I would have thought that Truth was only found in the Holy Bible.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
---christan on 4/30/13


"Adelphoi"-

"...used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these "have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world..."

Your argument is with the New Catholic Encyclopedia.
---scott on 4/30/13


Jed, Bull's-eye with Matthew 1:25! Yet watch 'im wiggle outta this one too! (So dedicated to Mother!)

Cluny, Did you read MATTHEW 1:25? Joseph "knew" his wife Mary sometime after she bore the Christ Child. Now, let's see what the KJV word "knew" means.....Why, let's do what YOU did, Cluny, and refer back to the O.T. for some "Versical-comparative interpretation"! GENESIS 4:1, "And Adam KNEW Eve...and SHE CONCEIVED, and bare Cain." Adam "knew" his wife and she CONCEIVED. Now, MATTHEW 1:24-25, "Then Joseph...KNEW her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son." So, "knew" means "HAD INTIMATE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH". So much for Mary's perpetual virginity!
---Gordon on 4/30/13


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First off, Joseph the Betrothed was an older widower with children from his first marriage.
---Cluny on 4/30/13

Where exactly were these children when Joseph was on the way to be counted for the census? These children would need to be included with the census. Therefore, they would have been at the birth of Jesus, yet we do not see them in the Scriptures.

Why are the other children not mentioned when this happened?

Matt 2:13 "Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him"
---Mark_Eaton on 4/30/13


\\"But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son." (Matthew 1:25).\\

I don't know what translation you are using, Jed, but this is not accurate.

it says FIRSTBORN son in Greek, and the term "firstborn son" does not mean the woman had other children afterwards.

If a woman's first pregnancy results in the birth of a LIVING MALE CHILD, only this one has the designation "firstborn son," and is subject to the law of redemption of the firstborn.

If her first pregnancy ended with abortion, stillbirth, or a living daughter, any male children after this is NOT a "firstborn son" in Jewish law.

More to come.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/13


\\used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these "have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world..."\\

And in Matthew 1, "Judah and his brothers" had 4 mothers among them, so not always does ADELFOS mean full brother, even in that book.

In Genesis, Abraham calls Lot his brother, even though Lot was actually Abraham's nephew.

Gordon, where did you get the idea that the Bible was the only source of information about Biblical characters? The Bible itself doesn't say so.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/13


Mary was did not remain a virgin her whole life. She only remained a virgin until after Jesus was born. After she gave birth to Jesus she had marital relations with her husband, Joseph.

"But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son." (Matthew 1:25).

Jesus also had brothers and sisters. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. The Bible also tells us he had sisters but they are not named.
---Jed on 4/30/13


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Matt. 13:53-56, JB ("Adelphoi")

"...they were astonished and said, 'Where did the man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? This is the carpenters son, surely? Is not his mother the woman called Mary, and his brothers [Greek, adelphoi] James and Joseph and Simon and Jude? His sisters [Greek, adelphai], too, are they not all here with us?'"

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits regarding the Greek words adelphoi and adelphai, used at Matthew 13:55, 56, that these "have the meaning of full blood brother and sister in the Greek-speaking world..." (1967, Vol. IX, p. 337)
---scott on 4/30/13


Mark 3:31-35:

"...Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside asking for you'. He [Jesus] replied, 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' And looking round at those sitting in a circle about him, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person is my brother and sister and mother.'"

A clear distinction is drawn between Jesus' natural brothers and his spiritual brothers, his disciples.

Did Jesus' reference to his mother who was asking about him not mean his actual mother? Likewise the brothers accompanying his mother (vs 31) were not cousins or relatives, etc., (Greek syggenon is used for those at Luke 21:16), but they were his natural brothers.
---scott on 4/30/13


Cluny, And, where in the Scriptures does it mention this about Joseph having a "former marriage", and that, by this marriage, he had children?? Looking forward to checking out and reading that Scripture for myself! :-)
---Gordon on 4/30/13


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