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Existence Of Purgatory

Where is the Scriptural proof for the alledged existence of Purgatory?

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 ---Gordon on 4/30/13
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Peter was no Aaronic priest.
Read Acts 8:1Acts 11:1-9 Acts 15:1-15, Gal 2:1-9, You will learn that during the Acts period Peter remained in Israel, he preached to one company of Gentiles, and he then agreed to confine his testimony to Jews. Gal 2:9.
The only time Peter left the land of Israel, during the Acts period, so far as any Bible record, he got into serious trouble.
Gal 2:9 to 13. Peter would not sit down and eat with Gentile Christians. Do you think the Lord would send such a man to Rome to preach to the Gentiles? He sent a different man, Paul. And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul, for as thou hast testified of Me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Acts 23:11.
---michael_e on 5/6/13


Cluny said: //people here claim that the Theotokos had personal sin, but they themselves are incapable of sinning?//

Cluny you've been unable to discount God's claims that believers have "CEASED from sin" 1Pet 4:1, "CANNOT sin", 1John 3:9.
No doubt Mary, the so called Theotokos, likewise received this same position in Christ just like other believers.

For all believers, like Mary, their life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. What sin can they be charged with?
Answer: NONE. Nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33

If scripture contradicts what we're taught at a church it would be in our own best interests to search the scriptures further to find out more.
---Haz27 on 5/6/13


Nikki, isn't it interesting how some people here claim that the Theotokos had personal sin, but they themselves are incapable of sinning?
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/6/13

Why of course. She isn't special, but WE are special.
All she did was give birth. Big deal


You gave me a good laugh. THANKS.
---Nikki on 5/6/13


Nikki, Sin involves what a person THINKS as well as what they actually do. That's why Yahushua said, in MATTHEW 5:28, "But, I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed Adultery with her already in his heart." Thinking of sin is just as serious of doing a sin, because one has to think about the sin, first, before they actually commit it outwardly. It all starts in the mind, and in the heart.
---Gordon on 5/6/13


"Everything I wrote in my last post is in Paul's letters. And I said Paul would be wrong, not Jesus. You can't refute what I wrote, and I am happy God loves humanity so much that He will save all of us. Praise His holy name!"
---Love.wins on 5/6/13


L.w: Jesus (the Son & WORD of GOD) is Lord, not Paul. Jesus taught more on the subject of hell than He did about heaven. Jesus stressed hell is a very real place inhabited by unbelievers.

Yes, Jesus has made salvation available to ALL of mankind. But, Jesus only saves ALL who choose to believe on Him!
---Leon on 5/6/13




Mark_V your distorting 2Cor 4:16. It doesn't say "cleansing". It says "RENEWED".
Note also Col 3:10 "have put on the new man, which is RENEWED IN KNOWLEDGE after the image of him that created him"
---Haz27 on 5/6/13


AMEN Haz27. You have to watch Markv and his re-arranging of words and by that re-arranging context, and by that re-arranging Truth.
---kathr4453 on 5/6/13


\\Nikki. God says we (the new creation 2Cor 5:17)have "CEASED from sin" 1Pet 4:1, "CANNOT sin" 1John 3:9. He says nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those He has justified, Rom 8:33. \\

Nikki, isn't it interesting how some people here claim that the Theotokos had personal sin, but they themselves are incapable of sinning?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/6/13


Nikki. God says we (the new creation 2Cor 5:17)have "CEASED from sin" 1Pet 4:1, "CANNOT sin" 1John 3:9. He says nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those He has justified, Rom 8:33.
You've been unable to discount God's claims above.
Please consider what God has made available to you through Christ's sacrifice.

Your focus has been on the physical and it's behavior. BUT it's already dead (by faith) Rom 8:10. Why judge your righteousness based on it's imperfect behavior?

Mark_V your distorting 2Cor 4:16. It doesn't say "cleansing". It says "RENEWED".
Note also Col 3:10 "have put on the new man, which is RENEWED IN KNOWLEDGE after the image of him that created him"
---Haz27 on 5/6/13


Everything I wrote in my last post is in Paul's letters. And I said Paul would be wrong, not Jesus. You can't refute what I wrote, and I am happy God loves humanity so much that He will save all of us. Praise His holy name!
---Love.wins on 5/6/13


Haz27, pick any of the sins you have committed after you were Saved. And yes, sin refers to behavior.

Eve and Adam didn't get kick out of the Garden for thinking about eating the fruit.
They acted out on the their thinking which is a state of behavior. Action. Verb, They ATE of the fruit.

Matthew 21:28-31
"What is your opinion? A man had two sons, He came to the first and said, 'Son, go out and work in the vineyard today," He said in relay, "I will not," but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, "Yes, sir," but did not go.
Which of the two did his father's will?" They answered "The first."
---Nikki on 5/6/13




Cluny. You misunderstand me. Consider the post of James_L for further clarification.

Christians are a new creation (2Cor 5:17) and it's this new creation that cannot be charged with sin.
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
WE ABIDE IN Christ and in him there is NO SIN, 1John 3:5.
Hence nobody can charge ANY THING against us, Rom 8:33.

To charge a believer with sin is like charging Christ with sin.

As for that imperfect physical part of us, it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Why would you want to judge righteousness by the behavior (thought, word or deed) of that imperfect physical part of you? It's already dead (by faith)?

He that is dead is FREED from sin, Rom 6:7.
---Haz27 on 5/6/13


James L, sorry to disagree with you and Haz. Ysay,
"YOU are not a body with a spirit inside of it. YOU are a spirit who resides in a tent.'
here you are wrong,
"For the body without the spirit is dead," so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26) The only way a body can be alive is with the spirit.
Then say,
"The INNER man is cleansed ONCE for all, and cannot EVER sin again. But the tent is still filthy." It is not cleansed once for all time, it is been cleanse day by day.
"Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, "yet the inward man is being renewed day by day" (2 Cor. 4:16)
---Mark_V. on 5/6/13


\\You misunderstand the scriptures I quoted (which CLEARLY say that we cannot sin) because you think sin refers to behavior\\

You don't think it doesn't, do you?

There are several types of sin. Thought, word, and deed are three of them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/5/13


"Paul writes God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, & that it's God's will that ALL be saved, & at the end of the ages God will be all in ALL. If there is & eternal hell, then Paul was sorely mistaken...Paul never mentions hell in any of his letters...
---Love.wins on 5/5/13

I'm hearing a Manichean doctrine preached here, which teaches the material world is evil while the spirit world is good."
---Love.wins on 5/5/13


Jesus died for ALL mankind. God wants none to perish, but that ALL would be saved. However, many will choose to reject His salvation. If there isn't an eternal hell, then Jesus was sorely mistaken! Manichean doctrine? What you teach sure isn't Bible Christianity.
---Leon on 5/5/13


Paul writes that God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, and that it is God's will that ALL be saved, and that at the end of the ages God will be all in ALL. If there is and eternal hell, then Paul was sorely mistaken. And... Paul never mentions hell in any of his letters. Think about it...
---Love.wins on 5/5/13


I'm hearing here a Manichean doctrine preached here, which teaches that the material world is evil while the spirit world is good.
---Love.wins on 5/5/13


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"Yes, all will eventually come to repentance and be reconciled to God..."
---Love.wins on 5/3/13


ALL?!!! NO! ~ 2 Cor. 5:18 means ALL who have been reconciled: All who are "new creatures" in Christ! People, who aren't born again will perish...

Gordon: Purgatory is a condition & place of temporary punishment, suffering, or expiation: atonement & extinguishing of SIN incurred.

Fellow bloggers: PLEASE read & meditate upon Genesis 3:14-24 for "Scriptural proof" & the absolute answer to mankind's SECOND CHANCE. May the Lord richly bless you ALL with knowledge, understanding & wisdom as you diligently seek His written truth in the matter.
---Leon on 5/5/13


\\...you have never sinned after your where saved?\\
---Nikki on 5/5/13


\\Haz, your really complicate the whole topic...the Truth is not in you.\\
---Mark_V. on 5/5/13



Haz is not complicating anything, but highlights the distinction betwen the spirit and the flesh.

YOU are not a body with a spirit inside of it. YOU are a spirit who resides in a tent.

The INNER man is cleansed ONCE for all, and cannot EVER sin again. But the tent is still filthy.

Rom 7:17-18
...no longer am I the one doing it...notihin good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh

But early on, the "Fathers" stopped emphasizing this distinction, to the detriment of the church

Good stuff, Haz
---James_L on 5/5/13


Nikki and Cluny. Rom 8:33, Who shall lay ANY THING (even sin) to the charge of those God has justified?

What "sin" do you think we can be charged with?

You misunderstand the scriptures I quoted (which CLEARLY say that we cannot sin) because you think sin refers to behavior.

Read the scriptures I quoted in my previous post and consider God's definitions of sin.
Do you believe your faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5)?
If so then how can you be judged a sinner?
What "sin" can be charged against one who is already justified and righteous in Christ?
---Haz27 on 5/5/13


\\We've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1, CANNOT sin, 1John 3:9.\\

St. Paul disagrees.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/5/13


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Nikki. Only PAST sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25. Once we receive Christ there is NO MORE sin. We've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1, CANNOT sin, 1John 3:9.---Haz27 on 5/4/13

Unless you are saved on your death bed you are going to SIN again.
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. YOU WILL SIN.
Are you claiming you have never sinned after your where saved?

Jesus'death allowed us to go to heaven. We were doomed to hell.
His death doesn't give you and I the LICENSE to sin again and again without consequences.

If I catch you stealing $100 from me, I can forgive. But you will have to give back the $100. Just because I forgave you, it doesn't mean you can keep the money.

Jesus isn't stupid.
---Nikki on 5/5/13


Haz, your really complicate the whole topic of the state of the believer when you keep insisting that we are already complete and cannot sin. We are been sanctified all through our lives. Hello? At no time are we completely cleaned of our sinful nature. Your born with it, it does not go away until you physically die. Spiritually you are complete in Him, for He lives within you, spiritually. But as long as you have the flesh, you will sin. The Spirit cannot sin, but the flesh can and does. And sin is sin against God. All believers are partakers of the chastening of the Lord because we do sin. If not a partaker, you are illegitimate and not a son.
you need to admit you sin, or the Truth is not in you.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/13


Nikki. Only PAST sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25. Once we receive Christ there is NO MORE sin.
We've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1, CANNOT sin, 1John 3:9.

Sin being transgression of the law, 1John 3:4, (but now we're NOT under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4).
Sin is unrighteousness (1John 5:17), unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9). Sin is our former rebellion/DEAD WORKS of self-righteousness, before Christ.

But our conscience has been PURGED from DEAD WORKS, Heb 9:14. We repented of this, Heb 6:1. This is a ONCE ONLY repentance, Heb 6:4-6.

Christ's blood TOTALLY purified us. We ARE COMPLETE in him, Col 2:10. Perfected (Heb 10:14), sanctified (Heb 10:10), holy (Rom 11:16), righteous and cannot sin (1John 3:9)
---Haz27 on 5/4/13


Where is the Scriptural proof for the alledged existence of Purgatory?
---Gordon on 4/30/13
The divine comedy 3:16
---francis on 5/4/13


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\\RCC doctrine saying purgatory purifies Christians is to say Christ's sacrifice failed to purify us completely.
---Haz27 on 5/4/13\\

Actually, if you read John 1, it says that cleansing is not a once-for-all event, but is a CONTINUING process.

Can't think of chapter and verse off the top of my head.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/4/13


RCC doctrine saying purgatory purifies Christians is to say Christ's sacrifice failed to purify us completely.---Haz27

Jesus isn't the problem, we are are sinful creatures.

If I pay for all your debts and tell you "don't rack up any more bills." You rack more bills and come to me asking me to pay your bills again and again.

Finally, I pay for your bills, but tell you, you have to return the items you brought.
I did this to teach you responsibility, not because I can't pay for them, because I did pay. But you kept racking up bills after I paid the first time. What will it take for you to learn to stop?
I not refusing to pay, but you don't have the right to abuse me.

Aren't you doing the same to Jesus?
---Nikki on 5/4/13


Cluny. Thanks for the clarification on Limbo and Purgatory. The news media usually get their facts wrong so it doesn't surprise me that they confused Limbo with Purgatory.

Nikki. Seems you're correct that you can't believe the news media as they usually get their stories wrong.

But, can you see my point in my previous post?
Christians HAVE been purified. "ye HAVE PURIFIED your souls in obeying the truth (the gospel) through the Spirit" 1Pet 1:21,22.
See also Heb 9:13,14 how Christ's blood purified believers.

RCC doctrine saying purgatory purifies Christians is to say Christ's sacrifice failed to purify us completely.
---Haz27 on 5/4/13


Cluny: Orthodoxy rejects Evolution and Sunday worship, but people don't seem to get it. Do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---jerry6593 on 5/4/13


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\\You say Limbo is not RCC doctrine. But I was taught this at RCC school.

...
Also, I recall that some years ago the news media even commented on the change in RCC teaching in dropping Purgatory.\\

Limbo was never a de fide doctrine in Roman Catholicism, but rather a theologoumenon (theological opinion) that was widely held.

What you heard on the air was the official declaration that limbo was NOT an official RC teaching, but the secular media had purgatory and limbo confused. So did some posters here on these very blogs.

Neither have been Orthodox teachings.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


"RCC doctrine saying purgatory purifies Christians is to say Christ's sacrifice failed to purify us completely." Haz

Yup, that's what the doctrine of purgatory teaches. Basically it's the Vatican way of collect indulgences for their lust of money. Imagine having to pay for "low mass or high mass" to get the "release of the soul of the dearly departed" from purgatory.

How does purgatory even fit into the teachings of Christ in Luke 16:19-31?
---christan on 5/3/13


Hi Haz,
I know many young people claiming they were taught there are 52 states.
I saw and heard Obama say he visited 57 states.

You can't believe everything you hear or see even on TV.
---nikki on 5/3/13


Hi Nikki. You're correct, I no longer go the RCC.

You say Limbo is not RCC doctrine. But I was taught this at RCC school.

How do I know what is being taught about Purgatory?

Young Catholics tell me that they have NEVER heard of Purgatory in RCC teachings.
Also, I recall that some years ago the news media even commented on the change in RCC teaching in dropping Purgatory.

BTW, Christians HAVE been purified. "ye HAVE PURIFIED your souls in obeying the truth (the gospel) through the Spirit" 1Pet 1:21,22.
See also Heb 9:13,14 how Christ's blood purified believers.

RCC doctrine saying purgatory purifies Christians is to say Christ's sacrifice failed to purify us completely.
---Haz27 on 5/3/13


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"So the all is only to the OT!" Ruben

Really? Then why did Paul wrote it in the NT then since the "all" pertains to the OT? And where does it even say in Timothy that it pertains to the OT? Obviously, you tend to draw your own line to the use of "all" isn't it?

Bear in mind, if Paul was only referring to the OT, he would have wrote, "All scripture in the OT" instead of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God", which is quite obvious that he was referring to the day the Holy Bible would be complete with sixty-six books.

Shame on you!
---christan on 5/3/13


Yes, all will eventually come to repentance and be reconciled to God. Paul is very clear about that, and it's a wonderful thing! 2.Cor.5:18
---Love.wins on 5/3/13


Nikki, You are so blind that you would think that as a non-catholic myself, that I can't know what you believe as a Catholic? That's thick-headedness! And, yet, you claim what non-Catholic Believers believe is false, and you're not a "non-catholic", so, by your logic, how can you know what non-catholics believe when you're not even a non-catholic yourself?? HUH?? lol. Ay-ay-ay! I know very well some of the things that Roman Catholics believe. And, I know how wrong and false they are. You are SO brain-washed. And, you're lovin' it, I guess!
---Gordon on 5/3/13


Samuelbb7, Roman Catholics are taught that the RCC was the first true church....It's krazy krap!--Gordon on 5/3/13

Wrong again, if you are not Catholic, how do you know what we are taught?
That's KRAZY krap.

We are taught Jesus started the RCC. A difference.
Because Peter is the first Pope. Pope Francis is the present Vicar of Christ.

Of course the first Christians are Jewish. All of Jesus' disciples were Jewish.
Remember Jesus came to household of Israel.

Peter was a Jew!

Please stop your lies.
If you wish to debate, at least debate with facts.
---Nikki on 5/3/13


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Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Which one of these is the Orthodox Church or the first Church?

Thanks
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/3/13


\\Samuelbb7, Roman Catholics are taught that the RCC was the first true church. NO. The first true Church started in Jerusalem!, and was lead by Jewish Believers\\

Today she is called the Orthodox Church.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


Samuelbb7, Roman Catholics are taught that the RCC was the first true church. NO. The first true Church started in Jerusalem!, and was lead by Jewish Believers. The Head of the Church is not Peter or some Pope, it is King YAHUSHUA. The Roman Catholic church is guilty of Idolatries. The RCC can't see that, because they are blinded. The RCC are Blind guides leading the blind! MATTHEW 15:14. It's krazy krap! GOD desires Truth in all the inward parts, PSALM 51:6. GOD cannot condone the Lies taught by the RCC about Mary, Peter, Purgatory and Sunday. When the RCC teaches these Lies, they are far from GOD. MATTHEW 15:8, "This people draweth nigh unto ME with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is FAR from ME!"
---Gordon on 5/3/13


\\But Many traditions such as worship of Mary and Purgator were not taught by the Apostles.\\

But Mary was never worshipped with the LATREIA that belongs to God alone.

Should anyone have done this, it was not because of the tradition and teaching of the Church, but IN SPITE OF THEM.

And as I said earlier, Orthodoxy rejects purgatory, but people don't seem to get it. Do you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/3/13


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Love wins is a book by a Pastor name Bob Bell. A quick search will show you all about him. In responce to the Teaching of GOD torturing people in hell for all eternity he refound the old teaching that hell burns sin out of the wicked and everyone gets to end up in Heaven.

I believe what we Seventh day Adventists teach. That each person recieves the correct punishment in the lake of fire for theirs sins and then ceases to exist. A non SDA Professor wrote a proof of this. "The Fire that Consumes." E. Fudge.

Those who lying say that the SDA invented this doctrine need to read the book.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/3/13


Cluny you show as proof that we can believe in traditon above scripture a scripture that mentions traditions taught by the Apostles.

But Many traditions such as worship of Mary and Purgator were not taught by the Apostles. They came hundreds of years latter. So where would we find the Traditions taught by the Apostles? We find them in their writings. They wrote scriptures to tell us what is right and wrong. So when a tradition goes against scripture it has to be false. Your proof verse shows we need to put the words of the apostles first. 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

So I hold fast to those traditions taught by their epistles.
---Samsuelbb7 on 5/3/13


Love wins: What Bible are you reading? I've never heard such lies.
---Grandma on 5/2/13


"Hell itself is a purgatory since hell is not permanent. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 4:10. So rejoice! God will save all!"
---Love.wins on 5/2/13


L.w: Hmmm ~ interesting! Are you saying God will save all who repent of their sins & believe on His Son Jesus?
---Leon on 5/3/13


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//Hell itself is a purgatory since hell is not permanent. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 4:10. So rejoice! God will save all!
//

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


---jerry6593 on 5/3/13


Hell itself is a purgatory since hell is not permanent. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 4:10. So rejoice! God will save all!
---Love.wins on 5/2/13


Hebrews 12:4-12 says our Father corrects us, now, in this life > "that we may be partakers of His holiness." (in Hebrews 12:10) "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So . . . "in this world", our Father succeeds to make us perfect in His love. So, it is not wise to trust in a doctrine of procrastination >

Philippians 2:14-16
---willie_c: on 5/2/13


Do you think this idea was picked up during the Egyptian captivity and influenced the writing of Proverbs?
---Cluny on 5/2/13

I think the opposite.

I think God weighing the hearts of men influenced the Egyptian myth.

As we know, God is the source of all truth. Myths may be loosely based in facts or truths but largely exist to help us explain things which have no explanation, like God. God may have revealed the truth that He weighs the heart and someone in Egypt changed the truth into a myth.

Who is to say which came first? The knowledge of God weighing our hearts or the Egyptian myth.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/2/13


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As a child I was taught about Purgatory and Limbo at RC school. BUT, today this is no longer taught.
Is this the RCC backing away from this doctrine?---Haz27

I don't fault you because as you said you were a CHILD. You are wrong.
You are talking about babies not baptized being in limbo, and no longer PURGATORY IS STILL TAUGHT. I guess you are no longer going to Mass or access to Catholic Schools. If not, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT?

Limbo was NEVER a doctrine.
The RCC can not change dogmas.
Plus, no work in Purgatory.
If you are in Purgatory, you are being Purified. A person can't do anything for themselves.

Why do people make comments on subjects they obviously CLUELESS about?
---Nikki on 5/2/13


\\Any religious actions taken during the writing of the Books must be scrutinized because of the infiltration of other religions.\\

Proverbs says, "The Lord weighs the heart." And yet, the ancient Egyptians believed that their deities weighed the heart of the deceased against a feather. If the heart was too heavy, it got eaten.

Do you think this idea was picked up during the Egyptian captivity and influenced the writing of Proverbs?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/2/13


Hezekiah 3:15
---francis on 5/2/13

Isn't that book right after the book of 2 Zedekiah?

Good one. LOL.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/2/13


Where is the Scriptural proof for the alledged existence of Purgatory?
---Gordon on 4/30/13
Hezekiah 3:15
---francis on 5/2/13


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I know LOTS of people who consider all FOUR books of Maccabees containing true doctrine about Christianity, and no member of a pre-Reformation church who does not.
---Cluny on 5/1/13

I will respond here to all who responded about doctrinal truth in Maccabees.

If you feel Maccabees is a doctrinally correct book, then you should believe in purgatory, since the Book inspires this doctrine.

Second, I know no Orthodox Jew who believes the Books of Maccabees contain doctrinal truth because the Books were written when the Jews had been infiltrated by Greek thinking and beliefs. Any religious actions taken during the writing of the Books must be scrutinized because of the infiltration of other religions.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/2/13


\\ I have a 1611 copy of the king james bible and the Maccabees are in it but was taken out later.
---shira4368 on 5/2/13
\\

No, it never was. My KJV is a whole Bible, not a Bible with a hole in it.

**Sola Scriptura all doctrine must agree with the Bible as the final authority. **

Non-Sola Scriptura:

Keep the TRADITIONS you have been taught...And the rest I will set in order when I come...I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now...I have many things to write, but not with paper and ink..

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/2/13


Samuelbb7 * Mat 4:4... It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And we know not every word was written down-Eph 1:13-Col 1:5-6, Acts 20:35-Gal 1:12-1 Thess 2:13-2 Thess 2:15. BTW Satan himself use Sola Sciptura using scripture on his own interpretation..

Samuelbb7 & * 2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,

The verse says all not only and prior to saying all scripture he tells Timothy "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings"V 15 So the all is only to the OT!
---Ruben on 5/2/13


Sola Scriptura all doctrine must agree with the Bible as the final authority.

Mat 4:4... It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

1John 3:4

2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,

63 times in the NT the words "It is written" to prove doctrine is used. The commandments of men are placed less. Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
Tts 1:14
---Samuelbb7 on 5/2/13


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I agree with many others here that there are no scriptures to support the existence of Purgatory.

As a child I was taught about Purgatory and Limbo at RC school. BUT, today this is no longer taught.
Is this the RCC backing away from this doctrine?

And was Christ's sacrifice not good enough to cleanse us? Do Christians need further work in Purgatory to be made complete?

We "ARE COMPLETE" in Christ, Col 2:10.
But the doctrine of Purgatory contradicts this.
---Haz27 on 5/1/13


If you believe in the Jewish celebration of Hannukah (days of the dedication or the feast of Lights), then you should accept 2 Maccabees in the OT.

Hannukah is in 1 MACCABEES 4:36-60.---Nikki on 5/1/13


I personally know no one who places Maccabees in the list of books providing any doctrinal truth about Christianity or Judaism.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/1/13

So, are you saying you don't believe Hannukah existed?
The Jewish people are celebrating a feast that NEVER happened??

Do you believe Hannukah took placed YES OR NO?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION
---Nikki on 5/2/13


Ruben, you say,

"The Fathers recognized this book as Scripture for 15 centuries!!! And scripture itself uses the book of Maccabees:"

This idea of purgatory was introduced by Origin in the third century and he was considered a heretic by the RCC. The word purgatory originated with the Greek and pagan philosophy of Plato. Thats where Origin got it from. Francesco de la Rovere who became Sixtus IV came out with a brain idea on the area of indulgences. He decided that indulgences could be applied to the dead. Here the pope had power over the dead. Souls in torment could be release by his word, provided the relatives of the dead dipped into their pockets. Praying for the dead was one thing, paying for them was another.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/13


Maccabees is considered history and was not considered to be inspired. I have a 1611 copy of the king james bible and the Maccabees are in it but was taken out later.
---shira4368 on 5/2/13


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I personally know no one who places Maccabees in the list of books providing any doctrinal truth about Christianity or Judaism.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/1/13

Mark,


The Fathers recognized this book as Scripture for 15 centuries!!! And scripture itself uses the book of Maccabees:

"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection:: (Heb 11:35)

You find this in more detail in 2 Maccabees 7:1-42. Read it if you get a chance!
---Ruben on 5/1/13


\\I personally know no one who places Maccabees in the list of books providing any doctrinal truth about Christianity or Judaism.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/1/13\\

You don't know too many people, do you?

I know LOTS of people who consider all FOUR books of Maccabees containing true doctrine about Christianity, and no member of a pre-Reformation church who does not.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


Yes-several verses:

1) 1 Cor. 3:10-17.

"each man's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it , because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14:If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

15:If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"
---Ruben on 5/1/13


2 MACCABEES 12:38-46
---Nikki on 5/1/13

Just so we are clear:

2 Mac 12:44-45 "For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have
been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall
asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement
for the dead, so that they might be delivered
from their sin"

I personally know no one who places Maccabees in the list of books providing any doctrinal truth about Christianity or Judaism.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/1/13


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2) Matt. 5:25-26:

"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison, truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

No need a prison in Heaven or Hell to pay-So where is this prison?
---Ruben on 5/1/13


\\The Bible is the final authority on all spiritual matters.\\

Please give BCV where the Bible actually says that.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


Well it seems that Christian and I agree here. The Bible is the final authority on all spiritual matters. Purgatory was actually invented to provide a place for those who while baptized did not live Christian lives. So a place where they could be punished for their sins until cleansed was invented. But the RCC also stated that the saints had extra grace that for the right price could be used to shorten the times of loved ones in purgatory. Or if you went on a pilgramige to certain places and visit certain relics then you could by your works and alms lower your period in purgatory.

Helped the Vatican pay for the buildings and the lavish, decadent, lifestyle of the pope and Cardinals.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/1/13


\\ He may claim that the Orthodox has no connection with the Vatican but his reply here with regards to purgatory speaks of otherwise.
---christan on 4/30/13\\

Wrong again, as in everything you say about me AND Orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy rejects the Roman doctrine of purgatory.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


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"What an idiotic comment. You're not actually that dumb Cluny." Jed

I'm not so sure about that. It's the way that he replies exposes his unbelief in the Holy Bible and as you rightly pointed out - he cannot discern what's carnal and spiritual.

To him, with one stroke of the brush - if it's not written in the Bible, it doesn't mean it's not there or doesn't mean we are not allowed to do this and that. He may claim that the Orthodox has no connection with the Vatican but his reply here with regards to purgatory speaks of otherwise.
---christan on 4/30/13


//Where is the Scriptural proof for the alleged existence of the multiplication table or North America?// cluny

that is the best that you can do?

you not only avoided an answer, but it was done in a ridiculous manner.
---aka on 5/1/13


\\Neither the multiplication table nor North America are spiritual matters. \\

Do you think that EVERY spiritual matter is totally covered in the Bible?

The Bible itself says rather the opposite.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 5/1/13


2 MACCABEES 12:38-46

If you believe in the Jewish celebration of Hannukah (days of the dedication or the feast of Lights), then you should accept 2 Maccabees in the OT.

Hannukah is in 1 MACCABEES 4:36-60.
In fact you should read both books. They are very interesting.
---Nikki on 5/1/13


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NO such a place. Just like the trinity, Ideas that came from here 2nd. Cor. 11 v 14 & he gave to man. That Is where roman cath church with her daughters churches came from which Is here, Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6.
Their teaching are Not valid of God, But God Did Validate to put them here, Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6. Such good people, but So spiritually impaired.
---Lawrence on 5/1/13


Where is the Scriptural proof for the alleged existence of the multiplication table or North America?
---Cluny on 4/30/13


What an idiotic comment. You're not actually that dumb Cluny. Neither the multiplication table nor North America are spiritual matters. They are tangible physical things that we know exist because we can observe them with our human senses and they can be proven with tangible evidence. We do not need scripture to verify their existence. The idea of Pergatory, however, is a spiritual matter, and as such we turn to scripture for verification, which of course, there is none. So with no tangible earthly evidence, and with no scriptural evidence, there is simply no reason to believe in it's existence.
---Jed on 4/30/13


Where is the Scriptural proof for the alleged existence of the multiplication table or North America?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/30/13


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