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Is Michael A Minor God

The JWs proclaim one Father God and one minor god, Michael. We are to obey and put faith in the minor god, as well as the other God. Isn't this polytheism?

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"The point of the thread." Marc

Jehovah's WItnesses do not believe that Jesus is a "minor" god any more than Jesus thought that the Jews that he referred to at John 10 were "minor" gods. They simply were called Elohim that, as Warwick has astutely pointed out, can refer to God's representatives.

Jesus said:

"Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, YOU ARE GODS '? "If he called them GODS, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God '?" John 10:34-36, Ps 82:6
---scott on 5/8/13


again angel does not mean created being it means messenger of God (the father)

What you are thinking of when you think of an angel are the Seraphims and cherubims ( created ministering spirits) created by God

Jesus himself is also a messenger of God: Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,... and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So God gives the message to Jesus, and Jesus gave this message to Seraphims or cherubims and that angel gave it to John

In some cases, the Message goes strait from God to Jesus, then Jesus him selve reveals it to his prophets/ judges
---francis on 5/8/13


shira4368, why in heaven name would you even listen to someone, who:

Hates his brothers, though he knows them not! By the every way he addresses them.
Says he does not sin and keep all the law. Professes himself to be a Saint.
I am one of the saints: they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Believes there are two Gods a big one and a little one.

Luk_18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk_18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

Luk_18:13! He will never say this!

Mat_15:14!
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/8/13


"Tell me scripture that says Jesus is an angel." shira4368

At Isaiah 9:6 in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) the promised Messiah is called "Magni Consilii Angelus". This translates into English as...

"Angel of Great Counsel."

Some, like Samuel Clarke, have translated it "...the Angel of His Great Purpose..."
---scott on 5/8/13


Scott, it is all about context. If we read the Bible through and through via the light of the Holy Spirit we obtain a far better understanding of its flow, and message. Much better than 'cherry-picking' what suits. We see 'elohim' used in Genesis 1. Does that mean some earthly king or judge created? Of course not.

When we see Jesus called the God we know something totally different is here because no one else is called-in very nature God, in whom the fullness of God resides, the invisible God's image, who sustains all things by His powerful word, Jesus "the Mighty God."

John 5:30 speaks of Jesus who "made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Philippians 2:7.
---Warwick on 5/8/13




tell me scripture that says Jesus is an angel.
---shira4368 on 5/8/13

Exodus 24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with THE ANGEL which spake to him in the mount Sina

Genesis 31:11 the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob:...
I am the God of Bethel,

Even though I show it to you from the bible, and you read it, I have noticed that you do not have the ability to learn anything from the bible, only from your pastor
---francis on 5/8/13


"The word "God" is used of persons who represent the Deity, as kings or judges." Warwick

Agreed.

That's my point exactly. (Although I'd clarify by saying that the word God can refer to representatives of the Deity. Sometimes the word applies to the Almighty himself, sometimes to men, etc., as per the definition of Elohim provided below.

We agree that being referred to as "God(s)" doesn't necessarily equate one with the Almighty.

Moses represented the Almighty as God to Pharaoh for a specific purpose and period of time.

And Jesus said: "I can do nothing on My own initiative...I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." John 5:30
---scott on 5/8/13


But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mat_13:14, Mat 23:13!
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/8/13


francis, you get more stupid as time goes on. tell me scripture that says Jesus is an angel. I have never in my life heard such mess. you need to get saved and then the Spirit of God will reveal spiritual things that His Word says. everyone here knows you don't understand things that are spiritually decerning.
---shira4368 on 5/8/13


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The Message comes from God to Jesus. Jesus either delivers the message himself, acting as the chief or ARCH Messenger of God, or he gives the message to a one of the Seraphims or cherubims ( created ministering spirits)

When we think of angels we are usually thinking of the created being called Seraphims or cherubims. Jesus himself, although he is God and not created, is also a messenger of the father ( angel of God)

We need to grow out of those childish thoughts that all angels are winges creatures

1 Corinthians 13:11
---francis on 5/8/13




Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
--So, John the Baptist is an angel as well?
--Pushing things out of context again?
---micha9344 on 5/8/13


Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina

In one passage it refers to Jesus as Lord, and in another passage it refers to Jesus as " the angel."

Malachi 3:1 and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In this passage it referrs to Jesus as both Lord, and Messenger ( whcih is what angel mens)

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

In this passage jesus is the mediator of the covenant
---francis on 5/8/13


You also believe that Jesus Christ was equal to Michael the angel. You attack the humanity of Jesus as all cults do.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/13
Well you are an idiot
Never have you seen me attatck the humanity of Jesus

And there are MANY passages in the bible both OT and NT that referrs to Jesus as an Angel

Do you suppose that there is another Angel superior to Jesus?
---francis on 5/8/13


Scott Exodus 7:1 does not say Moses is God-clutching at straws. See Exodus 4:16 "you shall be as God to him." As Barnes comments 'Instead of God' - The word "God" is used of persons who represent the Deity, as kings or judges, and it is understood in this sense here: "Thou shalt be to him a master."' The Hebrew is Elohim (as you agree)and as Barnes says is a title given to those who serve God, such as kings or judges. See the unsubtle difference?

The WTS provides answers for JW's to cut and paste. However you are unable/unwilling to answer many of my questions as answers are not pre-prepared for you. Time you started thinking and replying for yourself.
---Warwick on 5/7/13


Gen_3:1!

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no savior.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord:

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Only one, and no other before or after me!
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/7/13


//KJV, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
NIV: "...and the three are in agreement."
ASV: "...and the three are in agreement."
NWT: "...and the three are in agreement."// Scott

Well of course the latter three are all in agreement theyre all based on the minority text, whereas the KJV is based on the MAJORITY text. You know why they call it the majority text dont you? Well let me remind you. Its because its based on the VAST majority of Greek manuscripts.
---jason9835 on 5/7/13


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Scott,

As always, you avoid the point of the thread. JWs call Jesus a god. If YHWH is God and Jesus is another god, that makes two. If the Father created and Jesus created (see Col. 1), then you have two creator gods again.

The dictionary defines belief in two gods as polytheists. JWs must be polytheists on this account.

You haven't yet directly addressed the accusation. I wonder why.
---Marc on 5/8/13


scott, simply put, you're an unbeliever that Jesus Christ is God, period. To you and your JW version, "your christ is a god". No need to go into all the details (which happens to be the JWs version of their bible) that "The New Testament in an Improved Version: "And the Word was a god.""

"and the Word was God" is not really subtle but glaring to your version of "and the word was a god". You see, polytheism refers to JW, and that's because you have many gods where we Christian have only One true God that consist of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Three "persons", ONE God, period. And if you can't belief this, it's your problem, not ours.
---christan on 5/8/13


francis, after hearing what you are saying, now I know why you are so deep in your apostatsy. You also believe that Jesus Christ was equal to Michael the angel. Why does that not surprise me. E.G. White was the teacher to Charles T. Russell the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses. The questioning of Jesus you asked Shira, confirm your beliefs, and if I am correct the teachings of the SDA's. Scott and David have been here for a long time, they are heretics for they attack the humanity of Jesus Christ. Now you join them. It is no wander why you do not understand what it is to be born of the Spirit. You attack the humanity of Jesus as all cults do.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/13


Dear Scott when a person lies they should do it where they do not get caught so easily. The modern passages from 1 john do not say what you lied to make them say.

1Jo 5:7,8 For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement. NASB

The Jews recognized the JESUS stated He was equal with the Father. Too bad you let false pride blind you.

john 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/13


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Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other:
--Not even Michael?
---micha9344 on 5/7/13

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: ... and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

1: Michael stands up for those in the book of life
2: When Michael stands up for them thy shall be deleivered
3: When Michael stands up those in the dust shall awake

also confirmed by the NT writer Paul:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
---francis on 5/8/13


Now on your subtile diffences in John 1:1 you give us three examples. Plus you say it says so in other languages. But other languages are not english So how do we know you are translating them correctly. Since you would be given a translation of a translation. If you go to Blue Letter Bible and call up the verse you can read 12 english translation, one latin and two in greek. But like the NASB they read:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You would make the Bible disagree with it self to make your dwindling JW true. The chosen ones are dying and the false prophicies that they gave in the past are hidden. You can be Born Again and see the Kingdom of GOD. Choose to follow JESUS.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/8/13


Warwick, you answer the questions very good concerning Jesus Christ and you also mentioned once, if I am correct, you have taught at SDA' congregations, can you explain why francis says what he does concerning Jesus our Savior? Teaching that Jesus and Michael are of the same rank. Is that only his own belief or is that what they teach at the SDA's church? You have taught there, maybe you can explain why his beliefs are so corrupt concerning Jesus and also concerning the spirit of man.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/13


John 1:1- Christan

KJV, "...and the Word was God."

The New Testament in an Improved Version: "And the Word was a god."

A Literal Translation Of The New Testament: "As a god the Command was."

James Moffatt: "The Logos was divine."

Smith & Goodspeed: "The Logos was divine."

Das Evangelium nach Johannes, Jurgen Becker: "And a god was the Logos."

(Some 40 translations in various languages, recognizing the missing article in John 1:1c, have rendered this clause differently than "The Word was God").

See the "subtle" difference?
---scott on 5/7/13


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1 John 5:7, 8- Christan

KJV, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

NIV: "...and the three are in agreement."

ASV: "...and the three are in agreement."

NWT: "...and the three are in agreement."


See the "subtle" difference?
---scott on 5/7/13


--shira4368 on 5/7/13
Daniel 10:21 Michael your prince.

Malachi 3:1 and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face,
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee,.. provoke him not, for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him

Mark 2:10.. the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee,

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, ... said, The Lord rebuke thee
---francis on 5/7/13


"Exodus 7:1- "As God"? "Like God"?- Marc/Warwick

What are the Hebrew words at Ex 7:1 for "as" or "like"?

What does the Hebrew actually say?

What is the literal translation of the text?: "Waiyomer YHWH el mosheh reeyh netatikha elohim lepharoh weaharon ahhikha
yihyeh neviekha."

Darby: "And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Young's Literal Translation: "See, I have given thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother is thy prophet."
---scott on 5/7/13


"God and minor god" [?] John (2)

As demonstrated by the fact that Jesus applied the term "God" (citing Ps 82:6) to Jewish Judges, Jehovah told Moses that he would be God to Pharoah, etc., the bible clearly uses the term "God" in broader terms than how we generally understand it today. That's a fact.

That doesn't make any of those individuals the Almighty God (or minor gods). They were simply representatives of Jehovah or had powerful responsibility...given to them by Jehovah.

Being referred to as "God", "a God" or "divine", likewise, doesn't make Jesus the Almighty (or a minor god) any more than the others. The Hebrew/Greek words are the same for all.
---scott on 5/7/13


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Michael, indeed there is no salvation in the angel Michael, or for that matter in any angel. And if the JW's are correct there is likewise no salvation in Jehovah because as your quotation from Acts 4:12 shows it resides in Jesus alone. Quite a contradiction for the JW's here as the OT clearly says Jehovah is Saviour. But for those who understand Jesus is one with the Father, God the Son there is no contradiction.

"O, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive."
---Warwick on 5/7/13


Scott, Exodus 7:1 the Lord said to Moses "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, ..." That you misuse this quote only demonstrates the paucity of your argument. This does even hint that Moses is God but that as God's mouthpiece it will appear that he is the author of the plagues.

Scott you never got around to answering my questions. For example: Deuteronomy 28:14 says you must not "walk after other gods to serve them." But your NWT calls Jesus "a god" in John 1:1! And Colossians 3:24 says you must "Slave" for the Lord Jesus.

How do you reconcile the obvious, and serious, contradiction in that you, on the one hand must not serve any god, but you serve Jesus who you call a god?
---Warwick on 5/7/13


---shira4368 on 5/7/13

John 5:28 .. all that are in the graves shall HEAR HIS VOICE, And shall come forth,

1 Thess 4:16 the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL,.. and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

ONLY ONE VOICE CAN RAISE THE DEAD

Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up, ...shall be a time of trouble,

Revelation 18:24 in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Jesus is the one who STANDS UP for his people in the time of trouble
---francis on 5/7/13


no francis, you show me where it ever implies that Michael is the same as Jesus. please give me scripture.
---shira4368 on 5/7/13


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---shira4368 on 5/6/13
Can you possibly explain why the voice that raises the dead is the voice of The Arch ANgel in one place, and the voice of Jesus in another? Can you explain why in one place it is prophecied that Michael will stand up for his people, and when you read the fulfilmet it is none other than Jesus who stands up? Can you explain why in one place Jesus in the leader of God's army, and in another place Michael is the leader? Can you explain why God calls him Micahel which menas who is like God, and the bible reveals that Jesus is the Image of God? Can you explain why the bible referrs to Jesus as the Angel of the Lord, and why would another angel be Arch?
---francis on 5/7/13


Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
--Apparently Michael
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Not even Michael?
---micha9344 on 5/7/13


Acts 7:38 This is he ( MOSES), that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel( JESUS) which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

If Jesus is the angel of God, or an angel( messenger Malachi 3:1) of God ( Revelation 1:1 ) Do you suppose that it is possible to have any other angel( messenger) above Jesus?
That is why jesus ios the ARCH ( chief) angel Hebrews 1:2

IS there any other Angel / messenger who is like God?
Colossians 1:15

That is why Jesus is Michael
---francis on 5/7/13


Yes it is polytheism. JESUS is GOD.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/7/13


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Marcus, you just need to only look and compare their bible to that of the other English Bibles available.

This is the JW New World Translation bible: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1

This is the KJV, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

This is the ASV, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

This is the NIV, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

See the "subtle" difference?
---christan on 5/6/13


Marcus,

It's just part of JW belief that Jesus was formerly Michael the archangel. Ask Scott, he'll tell you...I think.
---John on 5/7/13


I see Scott didn't answer the question directly but rather slightly misdirected people, like a magician.

As for Moses being God, no, he "shall be to him AS God." That is, he'll be like God. No one in their right mind believes Moses is actually God.

The point that Scott so dishonestly avoids is that JWs really believe that there are at least two gods, both of whom should be obeyed and both being the Creators of the cosmos. On anyone's reckoning JWs are polytheists.
---Marc on 5/7/13


"If you're not familiar with the controversy of 1Jn 5.7 then your bible study is even shallower than I thought!" 1stCliff

Controversy only exist in the fallen hearts of man. What is written in the Bible (if you believe 2 Timothy 3:16,17), you will know there's nothing controversial about what God is declaring.

Your state of denial and rejection of 1 John 5:7 is basically the result of your unbelief that Jesus Christ is God, that's why you say there's controversy. In this aspect, there's nothing to really discuss with you any further.

For Christ said, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Go figure.
---christan on 5/6/13


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John: 'The JWs proclaim one Father God and one minor god, Michael.'

Are you sure about this, John? Is there any place I can go to find evidence of this (of course, I would only mean either a place where I can find either print material printed by the JWs or a web site put out BY the JWs)?
---Marcus on 5/6/13


francis, you're a like a dog chasing after its own tail. You quote Scriptures from Revelation 18:24, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:15 for what? It doesn't even help your cause in explaining what you are saying in that Michael and Jesus are the same.

And where from the Bible did you get "MICHAEL mean: Who is like God (the father)"?

At least I know that Matthew wrote, "and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." which happens to be another name given to Christ. But Michael?Where?

For goodness sake, stop adding on to the Word of God.
---christan on 5/6/13


francis, michael and Jesus are not the same. I feel like saying a dirty word that means disgusted but I will refrain. michael is the arch angel and he was a messenger of God. God is....God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. it isn't god the angel, god the angel, god the michael.
---shira4368 on 5/6/13


Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Daniel 12:1 and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered,


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Wait a minute, I though only Michael alone knew this, how then does Jesus also know this?

because the are the same person
---francis on 5/6/13


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---Ruben on 5/6/13
Rev 22:8-9 does not give the name of the angel. The revelation came from God ( the father) to Jesus, and then to an angel ( no name given) then to John

Rev1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,... and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee,

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil .. said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Mark 12:36 The LORD said to my Lord,

In all three Passages, the Lord is The father. making a stronger case that Michael is Jesus, referring to the Father as Lord
---francis on 5/6/13


Michael is the chief angel of Gods army, not a minor god or any god at all. there is only 1 God & that's Jesus' father.
---womandisciple on 5/6/13


That is because they are one and the Same
---francis on 5/6/13

Really:

Jesus Christ:

Has authority to rebuke Satan: Mark 8:33

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL:

Does not have the authorithy to rebuke Satan: Jude 9

Jesus Christ:

Is call God's Son : Hebrews 1:5

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL:

Is not call God's Son: Hebrews 1:4

Jesus Christ:

Receives worship and God's kingdom: Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 28:17-18

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL:

Rejects worship, and is not given God's kingdom: Revelation 22:8-9, Hebrews 2:5
---Ruben on 5/6/13


Christian, If you're not familiar with the controversy of 1Jn 5.7 then your bible study is even shallower than I thought!
---1st_cliff on 5/6/13


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John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear (JESUS')his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

The voice that is hear that raises the dead in John 5:28 is the voice of Jesus. The voice that is heard whcih raises the dead in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the voice of the Arch Angel because they are one and the same
---francis on 5/6/13


Jesus is the Leader of the Armies of God in earth adn in heaven

Joshua 5:14 Nay, but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And Michael is also the Leader of the army of God in heaven

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,

That is because they are one and the Same
---francis on 5/6/13


---christan on 5/5/13
To " stand up for" does not mean to get up on two feet, but rather to defend, to take up for, to come to the aide of..which is what is seen in the book of revelation when " in her (FALSE CHURCH/ BEAST) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." Revelation 18:24

It is during this time as the saints are being slaughtered that Michael / Jesus takes up for his people

MICHAEL mean: Who is like God (the father)

2 Cor 4:4 ..Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Jesus is not a created being He is the Creator.
---francis on 5/6/13


"The only scripture you can come up with is 1Jn.5.7 that has been in controversy since it was written?" 1stCliff

1 John 5:7 is controversial? To who? To you? Not to me. There's nothing controversial about 1 John 5:7. John simply declares "and these three are one", that God consist of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Seems you have a problem with that statement John made.

You see, Jesus said, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE SON except the Father. Nor DOES ANYONE KNOW THE FATHER except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

By your confession, the Son has not revealed the Father to you and vice versa.
---christan on 5/6/13


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"God and minor god" [?] John (1)

John, Jehovah's Witnesses base their understanding of the term "God" on the biblical definition of the Hebrew and Greek words Elohim and Theos.

While Marc has asserted that "Arguably, the primary definition of God is Creator," that simply can not be supported with the biblical definition in mind.

If "God" equals "Creator" then Moses, the Judges of Israel, even Satan the Devil would be Creators. (Ex 7:1, Psalm 82:6, John 10:34, 2 Cor 4:4) because they were referred to as "God(s)".

Strong's Concordance defines Elohim (God) as "rulers, judges, divine ones, angels...godlike one...the (true) God..."
---scott on 5/5/13


francis, how does Daniel 12:1 "Michael" points to the Son of God? If you read the OT, you will notice the name of Jesus was never revealed as clearly as the angel Michael, so how can that be the Christ? And even if Michael and Christ were the same as you claim to believe, wouldn't the authors of the NT then revealed of such an important revelation that they are one and the same?

Your imagination and doctrine has got you all totally confused. Here's why, in Matthew 1:21, the angel of God explicitly reveals, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus"We are also told, "...they shall call His name Emmanuel... God with us."

Where's Michael in all this?
---christan on 5/5/13


//Not "evrything" is written, some conclusions are reached by deduction!// cliff

since you have no affiliation, you have learned what you know and deduced this all by yourself?
---aka on 5/5/13


I always find it so amusing how JW's rant and rave about Trinitarians having triads of heathen Egyptian gods. They have even misquoted Trinitarian scholars to bolster their case, as has been shown on this site. At the same time they openly believe in Almighty God (Jehovah) and as per Isaiah 9:6 they accept Jesus is the "Mighty God." However in John 1:1 Jesus is demoted to "a god.' Therefore they have an unholy Trinity of Almighty God, Mighty God and bringing up the rear a god! One of their Gods/gods plays two parts in this convoluted nonsense.
---Warwick on 5/5/13


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Malachi 3:1 the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:

Judges 2:1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers, and I said, I will never break my covenant with you

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers:

Jesus is referred to as 1: The MESSENGER of the Covenant,
2: The Angel of The Lord
---francis on 5/5/13


Christian, The only scripture you can come up with is 1Jn.5.7 that has been in controversy since it was written?
Even at that, one team, one unit, one company? it doesn't say "one God"
---1st_cliff on 5/5/13


---christan on 5/4/13

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,...and there shall be a time of trouble,


Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

verse 18 tells us how the saints are killed during the time of trouble

NOW LOOK AT WHO IS STANDING UP FOR GOD'S PEOPLE IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You can search the entire bible, for who stands up, takes up for Gods people during that time, it will always be Jesus
---francis on 5/5/13


aka, Not "evrything" is written, some conclusions are reached by deduction!
---1st_cliff on 5/5/13


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//albeit the only one allowed by God!// - cliff

where is this written?
---aka on 5/5/13


aka, I'm not bound to any ism or organized group, so this is how I see it:
Moses received the 10 commandments about 1500 BC. 1st being "You shall have no other Gods before Me"
(before Me= above Me, ahead of Me etc)
Phil.#2 says God rewarded His Son ,"every knee will bow.."etc. allowing His son to receive worship (but not above his Father)
So I guess it's a kind of polytheism ,albeit the only one allowed by God!
After all Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom!
---1st_cliff on 5/4/13


Polytheism: The belief there is more than one god (Oxford Dictionary)

JWs believe Jesus/Michael is "a god" (John 1:1).

JWs believe you must believe "whom [God] sent forth [i.e. Jesus/Michael]" (John 6:29).

Therefore, JWs are, by definition and inescapable logic, polytheists as they have at least 2 gods.

Beware: the JWs will "cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of American men and Arius" (Colossians 2:8, with all apologies to Paul!).

Prediction: David and Scott won't bother responding to the actual logic of my argument but will hurl evasive ad hominems about Trinitarian pagan, platonic, triads from Egypt until the 75 comment limit is exhausted.
---Marc on 5/4/13


"Maybe you have trouble counting!" 1stCliff

Apparently you can't even comprehend, let alone believe, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Can you even understand written English (notice I'm not even asking you to believe because I know you can't), what John wrote is describing that the One God consist of the Father, Word and Holy Ghost. And not three Gods?

As for why you can't believe, Paul simply says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
---christan on 5/4/13


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"but the bible has many roles for Jesus and Michael why not search them all out and really educate yourself on what is in the bible" francis

Talk is cheap, I welcome you to show us the verses that explicitly says Jesus and Michael are the same so that we can all shut-up and call you great. And of course close this case of Jesus and Michael are the same.

This is so close to your heart is because your denominational doctrine dictates it to be so. So please, we're waiting (but not with bated breath).
---christan on 5/4/13


//Actually polytheists are those that believe in three gods, god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit!// -cliff

if that is your understanding of Godliness, then that is fine.

but, answer the question: isn't proclaiming one major God and one minor god polytheism, also?
---aka on 5/4/13


Michael the Arch Angel and Jesus are one and the same, if you dare to seek out these answers you will see it


What does the bible say about Michael, and what does it say about Jesus?
What are the things which they have in common?
What prophecies are written about Michael?
Why are their prophecies about Michael?
What prohecies are written about Jesus?
What do the prophecies about Michael, and the prophecies about jesus have in common?
How do the prophecies about Michael and about Jesus differ?
What roles does Michael play?
What roles does Jesus play?
How are the roles of Michael and Jesus different?
How are the roles of Michael and Jesus the same?
---francis on 5/4/13


The Bible says, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

Same roles? How so?
---christan on 5/3/13

That is more of the role of Mary to bring forth a son who will save people from their sin

but the bible has many roles for Jesus and Michael why not search them all out and really educate yourself on what is in the bible
---francis on 5/4/13


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Christian, Maybe you have trouble counting!
God (the father)
God (the son)
God (the Holy Spirit)
How many gods do you see here? Any child will count three.
I know , you see one!
If this was human he would have MPD! (multiple personality disorder) Aren't we made in His image?
Do you have MPD?
How can you not believe God "HAS" a Son?
---1st_cliff on 5/4/13


1stCliff, your understanding of the One God in the Holy Bible doesn't include the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You just keep going round and round about how much you believe in God, which is no different from the Jews (who doesn't believe Christ is God - see your similarity?) or the Muslims.

They will also tell you they believe in one God but their god is so similar to yours, which is not made of of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Why even bother calling yourself a Christian if you don't believe God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Does that even mean there are three gods? You believe so.
---christan on 5/3/13


Actually polytheists are those that believe in three gods, god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit!
Deut.6.4 says there is only one God and He has a Son! (you figure that out)
---1st_cliff on 5/3/13


"How are the roles of Michael and Jesus the same?" francis

The Bible says, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

Same roles? How so?
---christan on 5/3/13


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1790-1870 Second Great Awakening
1823 Joseph Smith visions
1827-1830 JS translating The Book of Mormon
1830 Church of Christ founded(pre-LDS)
1837 JS bank collapses
1838 (LDS) expelled from MO & JS imprisoned
1840 (EGW) family joins the Millerites
1840 George Storrs lead Adventists
1842 Nelson Barbour joins Millerites
6/1844 JS imprisoned and killed
10/1844 The Great Disappointment
1844(afterward) EGW's first vision
1863 SDA founded
1870 CTRussell(18) & dad started a bible study & many writings of Millerites inc. G.Storrs
1876 CTR studies N.Barbour's ideas inc. the prophecy of 4/1878
4/1878 disappointment
1879 (Christian Science) founded--Mary Baker Eddy
1881 (1886) WTS founded
---micha9344 on 5/3/13


---John on 5/3/13
Too many people make assumptions about Michael the ARch Angel without study:
Here are a few things to consider, all of whcih are in the BIBLE:

What does the bible say about Michael, and what doe sit say about Jesus?
What are the things which they have in common?
What prophecies are written about Michael?
Why are their prophecies about Michael?
What prohecies are written about Jesus?
What do the prophecies about Michael, and the prophecies about jesus have in common?
How do the prophecies about Michael and about Jesus differ?
What roles does Michael play?
What roles does Jesus play?
How are the roles of Michael and Jesus different?
How are the roles of Michael and Jesus the same?
---francis on 5/3/13


"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15) It doesn't say anything about confessing that Jesus is Michael.

But, John, I think true polytheism would involve a number of gods who are equal or more equal than how Jehovah's Witnesses teach the Father and Jesus to be.

But Jesus says our Father intends "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father," in John 5:23. There is one gold . . . like there is one God . . . but there can be more than one image of the same gold (c: Jesus is "the image of God" (in 2 Corinthians 4:4).
---willie_c: on 5/3/13


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