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Is Jesus His Own God

1Cor.1.3 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (NIV) Does this mean Jesus is His own God?

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 ---1st_cliff on 5/24/13
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Cluny, \\Trinitarians believe Jesus did not relate to the Father until he became man.\\

Warwick quoted P G Weathers in defense of the trinitarian understanding of Jo.20:17. How could Jesus refer to God as 'my God' when Jesus is supposed to be a part of that 'God'. Warwick cannot use his own mind and relies on Mr Weathers who says (quoted by Warwick) 'Jesus did not relate to the Father until... he became man'.

You can see the absurdity of this statement, so can I. However, your trinitarian co-conspirator Warwick believes this is true! Another example of trinitarian disunity!

It remains a fact as the Warwick/Weathers quote reveals- Jesus did not worship a triune God. Trinitarians do not worship the same God Jesus did.
---David8318 on 5/29/13


"How many gods is that? If it's one god then...." 1stCliff

I wouldn't even call you a psycho and that's because Scripture simply calls you an unbeliever, period. Your inability to comprehend or believe that God is made up of the Father, Son and Spirit has nothing to do with choice but rather an action of one that's in disobedience to the Word of God.

And guess whose will is it? "...being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:8, "...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11

Yes, God's will.
---christan on 5/29/13


David, Scripture calls Jesus the Son of Man-what does this mean?

Jesus is also called the Son of God-what does this mean?

Hebrews 10:5 "Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me,"

What does "a body you have prepared for me" mean?

This is of course a simple test to see if you are capable of understanding Scripture rather than blindly swallowing the WTS nonsense.

I await your answers.
---Warwick on 5/29/13


Scott, your WTS supplied answers are again irrelevant.

Jesus is THE Redeemer, Saviour and Creator all titles shared with Jehovah God.

John 19:7 "They will look on him (Jesus) whom they have pierced."

Zechariah ch. 12 has the Lord God "who stretches out the heavens" and "lays the foundations of the earth" saying "so when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced,..."

That Jesus says we are to honour Him just as we honour the Father is obvious truth, as Scripture shows they are one and the same God.

Your sleight of hand fails again.
---Warwick on 5/29/13


Christian, That's the best example of psychobabble double talk I've seen to date!
** Jesus worshipped a God without God the Son being present**
How many gods is that? If it's one god then....
Jesus worshipped Himself????? Oh My!
---1st_cliff on 5/29/13




Well David you misread a post than make all sort of assumptions that are false.

JESUS is GOD. So many places in the New Testament proove. It.

Dear Francis on one of you other posts It was confusing it seemed you did not believe in the trinity. But I see you here defending the Trinity. So I am just asking for you to try to be clearer.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/29/13


David8318, can you even hear yourself talking? The Holy Bible contradicts your claim that "Trinitarians believe Jesus did not relate to the Father until he became man. Jesus worshipped a God without "God the Son" being present... because "God the Son" had become 'a man'." You're probably speaking for yourself about your own believe.

That's because you cannot comprehend nor believe John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." You see, before Christ became man, He was God. Understand?

Your kind of theology is rooted in your erroneous teaching that Jesus Christ isn't God, period.
---christan on 5/28/13


\\Trinitarians believe Jesus did not relate to the Father until he became man.\\

This is not true, but since spiritual matters are spiritually discerned, I don't really expect David to get it right.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/28/13


'However Jesus did not relate to the Father this way until he "emptied himself" and became man'- Warwick/Weathers.

Trinitarians thus worship a different God to the one Jesus worshipped.

Trinitarians believe Jesus did not relate to the Father until he became man. Jesus worshipped a God without "God the Son" being present... because "God the Son" had become 'a man'.

Trinitarians worship a 'triune' God, but its not the God Jesus worshipped. Why do trinitarians want to have a different God to the one Jesus had?

Christians however worship the God Jesus worshipped. Christ 'has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father'- Rev.1:6.
---David8318 on 5/28/13


Most trinitarians have not yet fully grasped the working of the trinity

Look at these verses:
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants

The message comes from God ( the father) to God ( the son) and them to his servants

God -> Jesus -> servants
jesus acts or is the chief messenger of the father

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Although Jesus serves the Father, he is equal to God
---francis on 5/28/13




Cluny... No!
---David8318 on 5/28/13


Samuel, All those scriptures are unnecessary, since they say the same thing as John.3.16. "God so loved the world that He sent His Son..." Who is the "saviour" here? God (because He Gave His Son) and Jesus because He went in obedience to the Father.
So the "saviour" here is in the corporate sense, as in all those scriptures cited!
---1st_cliff on 5/28/13


Honor..."Just as" (Kathos)- Warwick

"Just as [kathos] Moses lifted up the [copper] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up." John 3:14, NRSV.

The details of the two events are not exactly equal.


"Just as [kathos] Jonah became a sign to the people of Ninevah, so the Son of man will be to this generation..." Luke 11:30, NRSV

The two signs are, obviously, not exactly equal.


"[Jesus followers] are not of the world, just as [kathos] I am not of the world." John 17:16, NKJV

Is Warwick suggesting that he is, in every aspect of the phrase, not of the world just as (kathos) the Son of God was no part of the world?
---scott on 5/28/13


Those who oppose the trinity use selected verses and ignore so many others. Here are some of those who point out that GOD is our Savior and our Savior is JESUS CHRIST.

Psa 106:21
Isa 43:3
Isa 45:15
Isa 45:21 [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour, [there is] none beside me.


Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God... for [there is] no saviour beside me.
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 2:3
1Ti 4:10
Tts 1:3
---Samuelbb7 on 5/28/13


"Since Christ came as a man...it was perfectly proper for Jesus to call the Father "my God..."- Warwick

Small problem with this line of reasoning...Jesus repeatedly referred to 'His God' after his death (as a man) and his resurrection to heaven.

Revelation 3:9: "The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God..."
---scott on 5/28/13


David, are you saying that Thomas's words can be paraphrased as, "My God! It's the lord!" (Lower case deliberate)?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/28/13


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"Jesus didn't correct Thomas because Thomas did not say "My Lord and God". Thomas used 2 articles- 'the lord of me and the god of me' (ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou). 2 articles- 2 recipients in view." David8318

Are you saying the Holy Bible is in error? Or worse still, that Jesus is in error since according to your gospel that Jesus "didn't correct Thomas"?

Where did you get this load of crap from? Your Jehovah Witness bible? But that cannot be, that's because your JW bible explicitly says, "In answer Thomas said to him: My Lord and my God!"

Lies after lies is what comes from your heart. You'll say anything to deny Christ is God.
---christan on 5/28/13


Isa_45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else,....

Only One!
---TheSeg on 5/26/13

1 Jhn 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

There is only one GOD. Jesus/YAHSHUA himself called GOD.."Father".

Even though...as Head of all Son's of GOD he retains the power GOD's "own" Son would have.
Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered, it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
---Trav on 5/28/13


David you miss the point of John 20:17. Bible scholar Paul G. Weathers puts it succinctly:

"Since Christ came as a man, and since one of the proper duties of a man is to, pray to, and adore (God), it was perfectly proper for Jesus to call the Father "my God" and to address him in prayer. Positionally speaking as a man, as a Jew, and as our High Priest, ("made like his brothers in every way" Hebrews 2:17), Jesus could address the Father as "God." However Jesus did not relate to the Father this way until he "emptied himself" and became man, as it says in Philippians 2:6-8. I trust Weathers assists your understanding of this matter.
---Warwick on 5/28/13


Warwick, the context of John 20 is Jesus' resurrection, not his identity. Thomas required proof that Jesus had risen.

Context also confirms Jesus has a 'God' in his remark to Mary when he said he had not yet ascended to 'my God'- Jo.20:17. Mary didn't contradict Jesus by saying "but you are God"... did she!? Jesus' statement 'your God and my God' is an emphatic way of saying "our God".

Thomas addressed Jesus at 20:28 because he knew Jesus was the subject of Jehovah God's power over death. Thomas' faith in his Messiah, and in Jehovah was complete. 2 articles at 20:28 point to 2 recipients.

Thomas didn't say 'the Lord and God of me' which would have identified Jesus as God and would have been blasphemous.
---David8318 on 5/28/13


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aka, Just like in a court of law. hearsay evidence is not (admissible) evidence.
That's why I believe the things Jesus said and done from "eye witnesses" not 2nd hand!
I have never said anything about Michael or the NWT!
They "probably" had knowledge?? Maybe maybe not
I don't want to base my salvation on probables.
---1st_cliff on 5/28/13


1st_cliff: Please stop regarding the Lord Jesus Christ as a human being like you and I. HE is a being that you cannot totally define. HE is all that HE said HE is, believe that and you will have more peace.
---Adetunji on 5/28/13


I can't figure out how evangelical fundamentalists have any basis for faith.IE
You die but you don't really die,Jesus was God immortal but he died anyway but not really dead because during the time he was supposed to be (pretending to be) dead He was gallivanting around the universe. Then being dead (whatever that was) He raised himself . Even though scripture says "the dead know nothing!"
Gobbledygook and psychobabble!
---1st_cliff on 5/28/13


Dear Christian

Francis made a statement about the title of GOD being more reserved for the Father. You wrote that she does not believe JESUS is GOD. When she wrote:

But Jesus is God
francis 5/27/13

So Chirstian you appear to read more what you want to see then what is actually written. Are you so opposed to Francis that you have to make up stuff about her?
---Samuelbb7 on 5/28/13


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People do not understand that Jesus is God,because no bible text says " Jesus is God."

And Jesus ws always referring to the Father as His God

And the NT reserved the Title "God" for the father

But Jesus is God
---francis on 5/27/13


John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I think this brings the blog question to an end!!!
---francis on 5/27/13


francis, are you serious? Sixty-six books and you still deny that Jesus is God? Wow! Is that how "your faith" operates?
---christan on 5/27/13

No comments needed.
you ability to comprehend speaks now, as it has in the past
---francis on 5/28/13


David your belief is speculation, inconsistent with the context.

The context is:

Thomas will not believe unless he sees and touches Jesus' wounds.

Jesus appears and directly responds to what Thomas has said, saying-touch me, stop doubting and believe.

In response to what he has seen Thomas calls Jesus, (no one else, as the text says) The Lord of me and the God of me.

Jesus responds-because you have seen you believe. Believe what? Context only allows that Jesus is saying Thomas now believes the risen Jesus is his Lord and his God.

If you are correct, and Jesus is not ho theos (the God) then Thomas has blasphemed.
---Warwick on 5/27/13


francis, are you serious? Sixty-six books and you still deny that Jesus is God? Wow! Is that how "your faith" operates? That you've to "understand" first than believe Jesus is God? Is it not because of faith that one believes Christ is God? Christ said, "...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Did He say you must first understand?

You make great boast of your understanding of the Word in your blogs and yet the most "basic and fundamental" pillar of the Holy Bible, you cannot believe that Jesus is God even though John explicitly wrote "...and the Word was God."

So much for your "no bible text says Jesus is God"
---christan on 5/27/13


cliff_1,

you believe michael is another name for jesus and you want to talk about round-a-bout? where in the bible does it DIRECTLY say that?

furthermore, i will guaranty that Stephen did not read Ecclesiastes. He probably had knowledge of the book Kohelet (Ecclesiastes in the TORAH).

it proves that stephen, who probably had knowledge of scripture in the Torah, believed that jesus was God.

since cliff_1 was not there either. you cannot say anything definitive then if they cannot.

it is interesting that the NWT uses Lord in Act 7:59 and Jehovah in the next verse. The Greek word in both verses are kurios.
---aka on 5/27/13


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aka, Citing two scriptures that seem to indicate ,in a round about way, that Jesus receiving a spirit proves that he is God! But,
There's no way of knowing that Steven ever read Ecclesiastes,(they had no bible) and Luke wrote this down and he wasn't even there!
It proves nothing!
---1st_cliff on 5/27/13


Except, of course, when Thomas greeted the Risen Jesus with, "My Lord and my God!"
---Cluny on 5/27/13

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

I think this brings the blog question to an end!!!
---francis on 5/27/13


"My Lord and my God!"- Cluny.

Jesus didn't correct Thomas because Thomas did not say "My Lord and God". Thomas used 2 articles- 'the lord of me and the god of me' (ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou). 2 articles- 2 recipients in view.

Thus Jesus didn't correct Thomas because Jesus knew Thomas referred to both himself as his Lord and Jehovah as his God. Jehovah had just performed a miracle proving His power over death, Jesus being the subject of Jehovah's power... thus Thomas' remark of faith directed to Jesus.

Jesus had just identified his God is also our God in his emphatic statement at Jo.20:17 that he would ascend to- 'your God and my God'.
---David8318 on 5/27/13


Ecc_12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

spirit returns to God ... Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

two phrases in the bible that says Jesus is God.

even says this in the NWT.
---aka on 5/27/13


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I do not totally understand the trinity. But that does not mean I have to not believe it.---Samuelbb7 on 5/27/13

Amen!.
Some people think God's needs their understanding before declaring truth to them.

Jesus is God whether I can wrap my small mind around it or not.
---Nikki on 5/27/13


Except, of course, when Thomas greeted the Risen Jesus with, "My Lord and my God!"

And Jesus did NOT correct him.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/13


matt :21....John 10:30 God and Jesus are the same.
---shira4368 on 5/27/13


Scott you often miss the point, Jesus words John 5:23 "that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father.." Jesus plainly said He is worthy to receive the exact same honour God receives. And that those who do not honour Him this way dishonour God. Notice the emphasis upon 'Father" and Son'-"Jesus was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (theos) John 5:18. Jesus' enemies understood but you don't!

"..It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God" (theos)John 10:33.
---Warwick on 5/27/13


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People do not understand that Jesus is God,because no bible text says " Jesus is God."

And Jesus ws always referring to the Father as His God

And the NT reserved the Title "God" for the father

But Jesus is God
---francis on 5/27/13


I do not see how anyone who actually reads the Bible. Does not understand that JESUS is GOD. I do not totally understand the trinity. But that does not mean I have to not believe it.
---Samuelbb7 on 5/27/13


"You fit the expression perfectly= "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"!" 1stCliff

Goodness gracious! You can't even say it, can you? That Jesus Christ is God! You just go round and round when a simple yes and no would have been sufficient.

Again I ask, is Jesus Christ God? Yes or no? And if your "mind is made up", come forth and tell us. My mind is made too, Yes, Jesus Christ is God and He's my Lord and Savior who has saved me from my sins.

"But let your communication be, Yea, yea, Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Matthew 5:37
---christan on 5/27/13


"Paul categorically rules out the existence of 'gods'...says "gods" don't exist." Marc (1)

"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Cor 8: 5, 6, NIV

Yes, no real gods in the idols, but angels and others are, in fact, biblically referred to as "gods." (Responsible, powerful but not worshipped).
---scott on 5/27/13


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Christian, You fit the expression perfectly=
"Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"!
---1st_cliff on 5/27/13


"Gods'... in the DSS. No, the word is 'elohim'." Marc

And the definition of Elohim (my point from the beginning) is:

"Rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, godlike one, the (true) God." Strong's Concordance

Biblical (and ancient, secular) references to Elohim do not always mean the one "True God".

It's a simple point that, apparently, Marc finally agrees with. Maybe now he'll finally address Jesus' own words on the topic:

"Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)...'I am the Son of God..." John 10:34-36, Ps 82:6
---scott on 5/27/13


Isa_43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and (beside me there is no saviour).
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and (beside me there is no God).
Isa_44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. (Is there a God beside me)? yea, there is no God, I know not any.
Isa_45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, (there is no God beside me): I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Only One!
---TheSeg on 5/26/13


1stCliff, if that's what it says in your NIV, do you then acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God?

Spare us your English or Greek lessons on the Theos, hoTheos and Logos. A simple yes or no would suffice. Once again, is Jesus Christ God?
---christan on 5/27/13


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Christian, You're wrong again, my bible version (NIV) says like yours ,"the word was God" You see the translators couldn't put "a god" there because there's no article "a" in Greek!
But there's a difference in Theos and hoTheos. The Logos is Theos and God is hoTheos (The God) you see Theos was WITH hoTheos, that's 2,Father and Son!
---1st_cliff on 5/26/13


I guess that would mean there is more then one of each of us. We all have breath,and speak words.Only God's word can create and become flesh!
---mike on 5/26/13


"PARALYSIS OF ANALYSIS" You & a great many CN bloggers suffer from it Cliff. You over think yourselves out of seeing & hearing God's obvious Bible answers, perhaps because they aren't what you want to see or hear. 2 Timothy 3:7 describes people like you: "always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Your plight is like Pontius Pilate's who, in the face of Jesus ("The Truth"), perhaps sarcastically asked, "What is truth?". (Jn. 18:38) Like so many CN bloggers, Pilate might've prefaced his comment with "Okay, you tell me!"

The Truth remains silent to folk who are unwilling to believe. It's like the Paul Simon 1964 song, The Sound of Silence.
---Leon on 5/26/13


"Your posts simply point out your shallow comprehention of scripture! IE Jn.1 "...and the Word was WITH God..." (does not understand that "with" involves more than one)" istCliff

Obvious you practice selective reading. Read the whole verse in it's entirety.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Do you see the last five words that ended the sentence? Or does yours not come with it? I'll help, "and the Word was God." O I forgot, your "particular" version says, "the word was a god"

That explains your unbelief.
---christan on 5/25/13


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"Maybe you need to change Jn.3.16 to God and the Holy Spirit loved the world so much that they sent their onlybegotten son that.....? Silly right???"

Silly to an unbeliever like yourself.

When God is mentioned, it's obvious the reference is rooted in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is, when Scripture says "God is love", doesn't it includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." See the two different persons in God? The Father and Son? Now the Holy Spirit, if He didn't love the elect - would He give them spiritual life?

There you have it, "God is love".
---christan on 5/25/13


Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear therefore O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord,

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, One Faith,one baptism,

Mark 12:29 -And Jesus answered him, the first commandments is, Hear O Israel, The Lord our God is One Lord,

Acts 20:21 - Testifying both to the Jews, and to the greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward Our Lord Jesus Christ,

( Is There One Lord or Two ? - )

Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I , am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour,

1 Timothy 2:3 - ( Refer)

Titus 1:4 - To Titus mine own son after the common faith, grace mercy, and peace,from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour,

( One Saviour or Two ? - )
---RICHARDC on 5/25/13


Let's recall what Scott's disingenuous, pseudo-academic ruse is. He attempts to convince that 'gods' appears in English in the DSS. No, the word is 'elohim'. He's twisted it to his cultish end to make it seem Jews believed in the existence of 'gods', thus providing dishonest support for his JW belief that Jesus is a created god. 'Elohim' is not a name but a class, like our word 'celestial being' which includes angels, God.

Contrary to the Watchtower's pagan belief, Paul categorically rules out the existence of 'gods' because he says "gods" don't exist. He uses the subjunctive(the conditional of impossibility) in 1 Cor. 8:4-6 ("even if there were") and making a Hebrew pun by linking 'idols [i.e. gods]' to 'no-thing'.
---Marc on 5/25/13


God is the
father of the Messiah,the Christ, Who is the Word of God.
---mike on 5/25/13


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--1st_cliff on 5/24/13

If I understand you correctly, what you are really asking is: "IS JESUS GOD?"
---francis on 5/25/13


---1st_cliff on 5/25/13
Bible does not tell us Godhead is three, it does say that the all the attributes of the Godhead is contained in Jesus

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead,

Colossians 2:9 For in him ( JESUS) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,..
---francis on 5/25/13


Richardc: Your post is typical who think that the words I am is some kind of magical expression!
When God sent Moses to say I AM (hayah) has sent me, it was part of God's devine name YHVH.(I am that I am,I will be whatsoever I will be, I shall become whatsoever I shall become ,etc)
Used in the NT it simply means I am (EIMI or I exist)
Count how many times Paul said "eimi" referring to himself, no, no proof of trinity here!
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


Shira, Where does the bible say that the Godhead is three?
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


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Are you saying there isn't a Trinue God?
IF YOU ARE, please explain Matthew 28:19?

Only God can have an equal?
Plus Genesis goes into singular to plural many times.

Jesus is His own God, but One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

John 10:17-18
"This is why the Father loves Me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again, No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father."
---Nikki on 5/25/13


cliff, where so you think the Holy Spirit fits with God? you do know the God Head is 3. why don't you go thru your bible and find all the 3's. there is a reason why 3's are significant in the bible.
---shira4368 on 5/25/13


MarkV, You and fellow trinitarians believe there are 3 persons in the Godhead (whatever that's supposed to mean) Yet continually mention the Father and Son always leaving out Holy Spirit . I and my father are one, you've seen me you've seen the father, sit at my right hand,etc... Why?
Maybe you need to change Jn.3.16 to God and the Holy Spirit loved the world so much that they sent their onlybegotten son that.....? Silly right???
Trinity does not exist!
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


Mark V, You asked what's my purpose in asking this question?
Simply to point out the unscriptural foolishness of the trinity belief!
God does not have a brother or a father or a mother, He has a Son , who loves his Father to the point of dieing in obedience!
The Father cannot die because He is immortal.Obviously the Son was not immortal,He paid the price and is rewarded as King of God's Kingdom!
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


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NO! Jesus is the son of God. look at that sentence again. "of" is in there showing God the father is separate then Jesus.
---womandisciple on 5/25/13


Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart," He says in Matthew 11:29. And Paul speaks of how "we first trusted in Christ", in Ephesians 2:12.

Do we trust in less than God, for our salvation? Have you trusted in Jesus? or in a copy-cat religion of conforming to others?

Our Father "has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (in John 5:22-23)

Do you honor Jesus "just as" you honor the Father? Does Jesus mean to honor someone less than God, "just as" one honors God?
---willie_c: on 5/25/13


1Cliff, you don't agree with the Christian view of Jesus, why ask these questions. What's your purpose?
"Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ"
The passage is speaking of the two Persons of the Godhead. The grace of God is given to those who believe by Jesus Christ who came to die for our sins. The testimony of Jesus Christ has to be confirmed in you. It's not.
"For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" You believe you are wise by asking,
"for it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent"
---Mark_V. on 5/25/13


So Christian, The word "my" is possessive Jn.20.17 proves that Jesus is not His own God, nor is God , but has (like you and I) a God!who is also His Father!
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


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Christian, Your posts simply point out your shallow comprehention of scripture! IE
Jn.1 "...and the Word was WITH God..." (does not understand that "with" involves more than one)

1Jn 5 .7 "...and these three are one."
US Army slogan "An Army of One" proves that there's only one soldier in the US army, huh?
Shallow !
---1st_cliff on 5/25/13


JOHN 10:30 - I and my Father are ONE

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 - Hear O Israel , The Lord our God is ONE LORD,

JOHN 13:13 - YE call me LORD and Master, ye say well: For so - I AM,

EXODUS 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM , and he said , Thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you,

---RICHARDC on 5/25/13


"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 Christan

So who is the "Only true God" according to Jesus who spoke these words in prayer?
---scott on 5/25/13


Jesus Christ is the word of God!
1Co 1:3_Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from (his word!)
See!

You may want to look at Christ as separate from God the Father.
But that's only because you can't understand how they are the same.
Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Not just any word but God's word.
Joh_1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
This is saying all things were made by God's word.

Even to try and separate the two is to deny yourself!
Peace
---TheSeg on 5/24/13


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The DSS and the Judeo/Christian view of the word "God"- (1)

1. "Scott believes Jews were polytheists." Marc

To the contrary. Jews were, and still are, strict monotheists. This is exactly the reason that their varied use of the word "God" in the Bible and secular writings is key.

2. "Gods' isn't in the scroll..." Marc

False. The scroll fragments are 4Q403 I i, 30-46 and 4Q405 19ABCD and "gods" appear many times.

3. "Secular material...at Qumran" Marc

Of course. The point exactly...the general, Judeo/Christian view of the word 'God" in both inspired and secular writings.
---scott on 5/24/13


The DSS/Judeo/Christian view of the word "God"- (2)

4. "No figures...apart from cherubim" Marc

Yes, and 4Q403 I i, 30-46 and 4Q405 19ABCD called the cherubim "Gods". Is Marc paying attention?

5. ...Uhhh what?

6. "Who wrote this...?" Marc

Probably the Essenes

--

The ancient Jews had no problem calling angels "gods". They recognized that angels were not to be worshipped and that they (along with men like the Judges and Moses who were biblically called gods) received their power and authority from Almighty God. They were the epitome of a monotheistic religion. They worshipped God Almighty, the Only True God.
---scott on 5/24/13


Where in the Holy Bible does it even say "Jesus is His own God"??? Only a convoluted person who claims to read the Holy Bible can come up with such a line of question.

The Bible is explicit about Jesus Christ, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus Christ is God!

That God is triune, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Jesus is the Word (Son) who's God!
---christan on 5/24/13


no > in John 20:17, Jesus speaks of God our Father as "My Father and your Father" and "My God and your God,". So, Jesus does not call Himself "the God and Father".

When we say "Jesus is God", we do not mean Jesus is God the Father, but we mean Jesus is God in human form as "the Son of God" (1 John 4:15) > "the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4) which is like to how a pot of gold is gold, but not all gold that there is.

God is "love" > family love having three divine Persons of this love . . . like how gold can have more than one form (c: But love, like in a unified family, does not have impersonal forms (c:
---willie_c: on 5/24/13


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Re Vermes' DSScrolls translation, 1. Scott believes Jews were polytheists (really!), like JWs
2. Doesn't understand 'gods' isn't in the scroll and was poetry
3. Even secular material was found at Qumran
4. Exodus states there were no "figures" i.e. images, especially "gods", in the Holy of Holies, apart from cherubim
5. Paul confirms "gods" don't exist by using the subjunctive in 1 Cor. 8:4-6 ("even if there were") and making a Hebrew pun by linking 'idols [i.e. gods]' to 'no-thing'.
6. Only the High Priest could enter the HofH, so who wrote this piece of poetic conjecture?


BTW, stop blindly cutting and pasting from the internet without checking sources and CONTEXT.
---Marc on 5/24/13


"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." 2 Peter 1:8,9
---christan on 5/24/13


If you're a trinitarian, that's exactly what it means!
---1st_cliff on 5/24/13


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