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Explain Hebrews 12:16-17

Does Hebrews 12:16-17 indicate that predestination and choice are not necessarily exclusive of each other.

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 ---aka on 6/6/13
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Francis, you misquoted John 3:17. God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. I know it was an accident but just wanted you to know.
---shira4368 on 7/6/13


francis, I never said Jesus came to condemn anyone. Those are your words, not mine. Jesus came to die on the Cross for the sins of those who will believe through faith. And the only ones who will believe will be the elect of God. If you are not one of the elect, you will not be saved. The simple answer is that all descendants of Adam are heading to hell condemned already. And if the Spirit does not quicken their hearts, and changes the person nature, he will continue going to hell. Those are the reprobates.
If you are saved by God, praise God. If you are saved by your own free will, you are not saved, you get no glory for your works.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/13


--Mark_V. on 7/6/13
Did not the seed fall on every soil?

Ok here is another

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

Predestination teaches that some were created to be condemned, while the bible teaches us that Jesus did not come to condemn anyone, but to save the whole world

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Not some men , but ALL of humanity
---francis on 7/6/13


Even the soil that had stones had an opportunity to bring good fruits---francis on 7/5/13

Francis, you been hitting some home runs lately.
---Nikki on 7/6/13


Kathr, did you not read Genesis? You said,
"GREAT statement francis, we know Adam heard God's voice after sinning. He heard God's voice and hid himself"
Of course Adam heard God's voice after sinning, how do you think he heard the curse given to him by God? The curse came after he hid himself. Get the story right.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/13




francis, you did not understand the parable of the Sower and the Seed, just as those who heard the parable from Jesus. Jesus spoke in parables so that those whom He did not want to know, would not understand them. Only those who Jesus explained the parable understood, Jesus said,
"because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" Jesus hid the Truth form the others. The prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled in those who heard but did not understand,
"Hearing you will hear and shall not understand. And seeing you will see and not perceive...." (Matt. 13:14). God is Sovereign and only He gives the ears to hear and eyes to see.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/13


--Mark_V. on 7/5/13
actually you are wrong

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

see the parable of the sower and the seed. The seed was planted, every soil received the very same seed, it is how the soil responded that determined if it would bring fruit. Even the soil that had stones had an opportunity to bring good fruits
---francis on 7/5/13


"If it were not possible to hear his voice, and harden you heart, why then this verse?" francis///
GREAT statement francis, we know Adam heard God's voice after sinning. He heard God's voice and hid himself.

And we see no evidence there was any "rebirth" as they want to claim, between the time Adam sinned and God calling Adam in the Garden.
---kathr4453 on 7/5/13


Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Also refer to Romans 6.....baptized into His death, and THEN being made Alive WITH THE RESURRECTED CHRIST.

Trey claims he owned "THIS POWER" before ever believing. Paul NEVER made such claims.

Trey needed to be saved FIRST so that he could "believe" so that he could be SAVED AGAIN? What a blasphemic mess.

Those who make such ridiculous claims only expose they know NOTHING about Salvation or what happened At THE CROSS.

These are FALSE TEACHERS. BEWARE!
---kathr4453 on 7/5/13


francis, two things I disagree, First you said to Shira, that we should trust the prophets and you gave Biblical prophets. We should trust those prophets since God authenticated them within His Word. Those not mentioned in Scripture are fakes. Then give,
"Hebrews 3:15" then ask:

"If it were not possible to hear his voice, and harden you heart, why then this verse?" Only those who have ears to hear will hear. Spiritual hearing comes through regeneration. When you are born of God. Otherwise you do not hear the Truth and understand it.
"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks after God"
(Rom. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 7/5/13




Francis, I did hear Gods voice but it isn't a voice anyone else hears. People do not hear an audible voice from God. I would like to meet the person who can hear an audible voice from God.
---shira4368 on 7/5/13


do you think a prophet can tell us what Gods will for our lives are.
---shira4368 on 7/4/13
Yes. see David, Solomon, Samuael, and Nathan

However, when we say that God has laied something on our hearts, what I ( francis) thinks happens is that we become convicted to do God's will, which is evangelize and witness. We simply become convicted to obey God in one are or another


the only true free will is God's will. any other will is bondage
---aka on 7/4/13

AMEN
---francis on 7/4/13


Francis, we are subject to the same things as in bible days. God still speaks to us thru His Word and thru our hearts. Sometimes we think we know Gods will for our lives and its not. It is very complex at times. do you think a prophet can tell us what Gods will for our lives are.
---shira4368 on 7/4/13


Mark V, you are correct!!! A child of God can only believe once he is made alive. A dead alien sinner cannot hear the gospel with a spiritual ear. One has to have spiritual life.
Life always procedes action.
---trey on 7/4/13


FREE WILL
---francis on 7/4/13

the only true free will is God's will.

2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
2Co 11:5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.

any other will is bondage
---aka on 7/4/13


Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

If it were not possible to hear his voice, and harden you heart, why then this verse?

This verse is there ONLY because it is very possible, as in the time of the provocation to literally hear God's voice, and still harden your heart

FREE WILL
---francis on 7/4/13


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Nikki, you asked me,
"Now, if you are born of God and hear God's calling, are you saying you CAN'T refuse God's call?"... ---Mark_V. on 7/4/13

Heb 12:25 See that you [the called] do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we [the called] escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
---aka on 7/4/13


Nikki, you asked me,
"Now, if you are born of God and hear God's calling, are you saying you CAN'T refuse God's call?"
Just remember, if a person of born of God, God is their Father. And if God is their Father, they will love Christ (John 8:42). And if they love Christ, they will not refuse Christ. Jesus said,
"Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the Truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's word, therefore you not hear because you are not of God" (John 8:46,47).
The outward calling of the gospel goes out to so many, but the word has to come to them in power, and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 1:4,5) otherwise the word means nothing to them.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/13


//The Spirit does not have to help me for me to know you are a liar, a heretic, and a trouble maker, the evidence you leave behind gives you away//---MarkV


I should've known you would say something like this. Mark, be honest with yourself. You think you know Jesus Christ based on what you read, but you do not KNOW him personally. If you did you would certainly feel the grief you cause Him by the things that you believe.

Still waiting for that reply. Did the Holy Spirit tell you that Kathr and I are the same person?
---LindaH on 7/4/13


Mark, you say,
//I was an unbeliever once like everyone else. I begin to hear the voice of the Lord, after He made me alive together with Christ//
Why would you think you were chosen over someone else? If unbelievers do not hear God's voice, and you were a unbeliever, how did you hear His voice?
---michael_e on 7/4/13


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Marks, you say you caught me using other names????? Really ? So pathetic Markv. I 'm not ashamed of my name, so I don't need to use another. But you must be guilty of using other names, since you're so OBSESSED with this accusation. Just because you do it Markv, doesn't mean anyone else does. I know Kay Arthur had this very same issue. Because she was admittedly immoral before salvation, se is/was obsessed with projecting her sin on others, believing everyone was just like her.

Sorry Mark, I'm as far as the east is from the west when it comes to being anything like you.

So stop projecting your sins on others.
---kathr4453 on 7/4/13


Aka, there was NEVER such a thing as a birthright to or for salvation. Esau didn't sell his salvation. The birthright was for service, to continue on with those promises given to Abraham, just as Isaac inherited that birthright over Ishmael. And we see Hagar nor Ishmael sold it, or disregarded it, yet we see even today those who believe it belonged to Ishmael.

But again, it was never about salvation, but God's plan and purpose in bringing in the Messiah through a CHOSEN PEOPLE.

Isaac still blessed Esau, but not with the same blessings as the LAND etc. that God promised Abraham, to continue on with the family business. Go back and read Isaac's blessings to Jacob and how it re-iterates all that was promised to Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 7/4/13


Kathr, it matters not what name you use. I've caught you using other names already. That is nothing new to me. And yes, I hear the voice of the Lord. I know who saved me. I know I was lost and there was nothing possible I could do to be save myself. I admit my depravity. I do not hold on to my pride. If it was not for God who had mercy on me, I would still be lost, the glory belongs to the Lord.
I have no anger for you. Your no one I fear. I fear the Lord not you. The Spirit does not have to help me for me to know you are a liar, a heretic, and a trouble maker, the evidence you leave behind gives you away. You are now trying to look innocent, but it will not take long before you to go back to your nature.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/13


LindaH, I have often had the same feelings you just posted. Markv claims to be someone so special as to hear the voice of Jesus, where no one else can, yet follows the voice of the father of lies, accusing me of being anyone who disagrees with him. This certainly did not come from The Lord, as you and I both know, along with others he has accused of the same thing, yet wants to be the voice of truth in all matters. He can't even discern truth from lie here, and openly exposes himself as one who cannot be led by The Lord.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/13


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MarkV, we disagree on if God speaks to everyone or not.

Now, if you are born of God and hear God's calling, are you saying you CAN'T refuse God's call?
---Nikki on 7/3/13


michael e, you asked, "Were you ever an unbeliever? If so how did you ever hear God's voice?"
Michael, I was an unbeliever once like everyone else. I begin to hear the voice of the Lord, after He made me alive together with Christ. What's called born of the Spirit. The second I could see and hear and understand the gospel then I could believe in Christ through the gift of faith that I received. For faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"
Only those born of God can hear the voice of the Lord, because God is their Father.
"If God were you Father you would Love Me" only those who belong to God believe, love and hear the Lord Jesus Christ. Because Christ is alive to them.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/13


//Kathr, now you say to me using Linda's name//--MarkV

Your assumptions have caused you to twist the image of the God of scripture making him out to be a liar and now you do the same with Kathr and I.

How can you claim to know "truth" when your mind is so ruled by fear? If your mind were ruled by the Holy Spirit you would know Kathr and I are not the same person because He would tell you so.

Please pray and let us know what response the Spirit gives you, IF you dare to even post it.
---LindaH on 7/3/13


Mark, you say
//Unbelievers are not of God, they do not hear God's voice//
Were you ever an unbeliever? If so how did you ever hear God's voice?
---michael_e on 7/3/13


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Nikki says,
"We are all headed to hell.
That's why Jesus had to die so we can all go to Save if we choose to follow Jesus."

Nikki only those born of God seek after God. you have to be of God to hear His voice and follow Him. Unbelievers are not of God, they do not hear God's voice. The lost might think they have a choice, but in reality they are children of satan, and cannot hear God.
"He who is of God hears God's words, therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God"
The lost are children of satan, and doing the desires of their father the devil. And he does not stand for the Truth, there is no truth in him. When he speaks he speaks a lie. why do you not understand this things?
---Mark_V. on 7/3/13


Kathr, now you say to me using Linda's name,
"Theres a lot of pain and anger in those words. Im guessing someone very close to you is an unbeliever and in an attempt to escape the guilt of not being a proper witness for them, you try to blame God for them rejecting Christ. Thats horrible, Mark."
Only Kathr would say such things to me about someone close to me. Thanks for giving yourself away again. It is no wonder you have not used Kathr on the blogs for some time. But it does not matter what name you use, your words give you away.
Read about the curse in Genesis. Every descendant of Adam is condemned. And that includes you also unless you are born of God by God.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/13


To understand Hebrews 12:16-17 you have to understand the word "repentance".

True repentance is only possible after one has been born again/regenerated/ translated/quickend, by the Holy Spirit.

A non-elect child of God does not have the ability to repent (to follow God) because he has a cold and stony heart and cannot hear God. John 8:43, John 6:65

He has no faith therefore he cannot please God. Heb 11:6, 2 Thes 3:2
---trey on 7/2/13


God commands with us to seek him and he will forgive us.
---LindaH on 7/2/13
Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Psalms 119:2 Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart.


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
---francis on 7/2/13


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//If He desired that all man would be save, He would never have put the Curse on all mankind. All descendants of Adam are heading to hell. Condemned already.- MarkV

Yes, you are correct. We are all headed to hell.
That's why Jesus had to die so we can all go to Save if we choose to follow Jesus.

Nothing is impossible with God.

"Without God you can't
Without you God won't"- St Catherine of Seina
---Nikki on 7/2/13


//If God willed that everyone should be saved, and not all will be save, that means that God's will means nothing, Zero//---MarkV

Theres a lot of pain and anger in those words. Im guessing someone very close to you is an unbeliever and in an attempt to escape the guilt of not being a proper witness for them, you try to blame God for them rejecting Christ. Thats horrible, Mark.

Nowhere in scripture are we told it is not possible for a lost/dead man to seek God. In fact God commands with us to seek him and he will forgive us.

//If He desired that all man would be save, He would never have put the Curse on all mankind//

Um which "curse"?
---LindaH on 7/2/13


It is the most helpless feeling in the world, like no clothes on you, when you realize you can save no one. We just don't have the power. Only God has the power to save lost souls.
---Catherine on 7/2/13


LindaH, most of you fight with everything to oppose the will of God. If God willed that everyone should be saved, and not all will be save, that means that God's will means nothing, Zero. If He desired that all man would be save, He would never have put the Curse on all mankind. All descendants of Adam are heading to hell. Condemned already. Nothing whatsoever they do, can remove them from that path, but God. And as we know He does not remove many of them. You want to make it look like, man, while lost, has the ability to seek after God. We are told that is not possible. That salvation with man is impossible. You say it is possible. You do not understand the gospel.
I give you God, you give me man. Your dependence is on man, not God.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/13


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"Did they acted out of choice or was it God's purpose for them to commit this wicked act, which they were held accountable for?"--Christan

Christan, its very simple.

Those men chose their path (unbelief). The steps they took along that path were determined by God. He used their unbelief to perform the evil that had to be done in order for Christ to be crucified so that Gods redemptive power could be made known in the resurrection.

It was the same with pharaoh. God already knew he would not let the people go (Exodus 3:19). He used pharaoh's unbelief and raised him up in that way (hardened his heart) so that Gods power could be made known by delivering Israel.
---Jasheradan on 7/1/13


Jasheradan, "A servant" wrote on 6/22/13 - "Basically, God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down" to which you replied explicitly on 6/24/13 "Exactly! Thats even supported by scripture." and quoting Proverbs 16:9.

So let's makes sense of predestination then. I ask you now, did Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel crucified Christ because they chose to or was it as the Bible explicitly declared, "were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."?

Did they acted out of choice or was it God's purpose for them to commit this wicked act, which they were held accountable for?
---christan on 7/1/13


francis, do you want to be judged by the law you "keep"?
---shira4368 on 7/1/13

Stupid question for one who belives in " sola scriptura."

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
---francis on 7/1/13


francis, do you want to be judged by the law you "keep"? I want to be judged because I am a child of God. how many people are you hindering from salvation because of your staunch laws? you cannot nor I can not keep all the laws. it is physically impossible. you can strive to keep your law but no flesh can ever keep all the law.
---shira4368 on 7/1/13


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Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
---francis on 7/1/13


Christan, I didnt think the scripture was all that hard to understand but here is how the scripture translates using a Hebrew dictionary.

Proverbs 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way:

(way: (Heb. derek): way, road, distance, journey, manner, path

but the LORD directeth his steps.

steps (Heb. tsaad): step, pace, stride, march


A man's heart devises his path, but the Lord directs his pace.

(NIV)In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.
---Jasheradan on 7/1/13


Mark, sometimes I think you have serious reading comprehension problems.

The scripture does not say (nor did I say) that God will save all men. "Will have" there simply means he "desires" all men to be saved. Im sure you have a Greek lexicon available. Look the word up.

If God desires all men to know the truth and be saved BUT not all men will accept the gospel truth and be saved, what is the ONLY possible explanation?

God is double-minded and a deceiver or man has the choice?

I know you are wiser than this!

---LindaH on 7/1/13


"Only genuine believers have the anointing."---MarkV

That depends on what the person has faith in.

Christ or a predetermined lottery of salvation?
---LindaH on 7/1/13


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LindaH, You say,
"YAHWEH does not keep men from knowing the truth and from being saved. That is the work of the god of THIS world (satan)"
Do you not realized how many people in the world never heard of Jesus and will never hear of Jesus? You forget that all descendants of Adam are under the curse. God put this curse on mankind. They are condemned already. And how about when the Holy Spirit directed the disciples to go to one area and not another area, those people were deprived the gospel and died in their sins. If God wanted everyone to receive the gospel, everyone would hear the gospel truth. In history only Israel had the gospel, the rest of the nations were never given the gospel Truth. Think about about that.
---Mark_V. on 7/1/13


Lindah, you say,
"the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you (1 John 2:27)" Only genuine believers have the anointing. You need the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then say:" For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2). You are living a lie and insulting the Spirit of grace."

Linda, Your living the lie, not all men will be saved, the Holy Spirit taught me that.
"but the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word , are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).
---Mark_V. on 7/1/13


Samuel, from another blog that closed, you said,
"But Mark one of the points you insist on is that GOD changed." God in His nature never changes are stops been God. Then say
" He got rid of the Ten Commandments. He said in the New Covenant he would write his law in our hearts. But you say he got rid of the law"
I have never said God got rid of the Ten Commandments or the Law. The law is very much alive, they are condemning all of the Lost without Christ. They are under the written letter of the Law. The thing that changed was the condition of sinners whom God saved. Those in Christ have the law written in their hearts. Jesus accomplished the Law perfectly for them. They live by the Spirit of the Law.
---Mark_V. on 7/1/13


Jasheradan, this is exactly what Proverbs 16:9 says "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

Now compare it with "A servant's" understanding - "God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down" and your agreement "Exactly! Thats even supported by scripture." Is that what Proverbs 18:9 means? Wow!

Where does it say in Proverbs 16:9 that "we still choose which path to walk down", where? It explicitly declares "but the Lord directeth his steps." That's like hitting the ball over the OB markers and declaring it playable.
---christan on 6/30/13


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Christan, how can you ask where when I just posted the scripture with it?

Proverbs 16:9
---Jasheradan on 6/30/13


You wrongly accuse us for giving you the Truth of God. Give me Scripture and I am kindly answer you --- MarkV

the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you (1 John 2:27)

You are given clear passages that don't need hermeneutical interpretation, yet your reject them.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.... For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2).

You are living a lie and insulting the Spirit of grace.
---LindaH on 6/30/13


"God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down"- A Servant

Exactly! Thats even supported by scripture." Jasheraden


Really? Where? Read this,

"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure." Psalm 2:4,5

"The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" Isaiah 14:24,27

You're in derision by the Lord of host.
---christan on 6/29/13


Heb 12:16-17, being a warning, obviously means that there are things that we can do that are damaging.

That means that we are NOT PRE-PROGRAMMED.

Some verses, like Phil 2:12-13 seem to have both predestination and free will in them.

The church, a long time ago, decided that predestination is right, but the exact reason I do not know - nor exactly what 'free will' meant to them
---Peter9556 on 6/29/13


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Those who claim to be presestined to be saved, tell me how do ou know that you are predestined to be saved, and not one of those who are predestined in the latter times to depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,
---francis on 6/28/13


MarkV, if God does as he PLEASES, and he predestines some men to disobedience and eternal death, then that is his PLEASURE. This is common sense.

"I have NO pleasure in the death of the wicked...."

Reread it 10000 times until it sinks in.

YAHWEH does not keep men from knowing the truth and from being saved. That is the work of the god of THIS world (satan)

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor 2:3,4)
---LindaH on 6/28/13


LindaH, the opposers of Our Sovereign God, say the same things you do.
"your error isnt that you believe God has predestined men to conformity to the image of Christ, but that He predestined some of them to a life of rebellion and eternal punishment for his own pleasure when He tells us in scripture that is NOT who he is."
I never said He got pleasure for those going to hell. Those are your words. All descendants of Adam are heading to hell. They are condemned already, found guilty (John 3:18,19). If some are predestine doesn't that mean the others are not? God does not get pleasure seeing the wicked going to hell. They rebelled because they are dead in trespasses and sins, God did not make them rebel.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13


linah,

i did not say the holy spirit is depraved. we are. and unlearned.

i can perfectly teach my 6 year old advanced geometry from a perfect book but she can only see triangles and circles.
---aka on 6/27/13


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Predestination and choice same thing.....He repented with tears, too late, the situation was irrevocable. Esau, was not a vile man. He was less of a crook than his brother Jacob. Jacob is in heaven Esau is in hell. Jacob, God liked and loved. Esau God hated.
---Catherine on 6/27/13


MarkV, your error isnt that you believe God has predestined men to conformity to the image of Christ, but that He predestined some of them to a life of rebellion and eternal punishment for his own pleasure when He tells us in scripture that is NOT who he is.

I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

If you could only accept that then you could form a sound doctrine. My heart tells me that you cling to your current doctrine so much because you harbor unforgiveness for whatever happened to you while you were a Catholic and it has defiled your faith.
---LindaH on 6/27/13


Lindah, the problem is not listening to the Holy Spirit, the problem is listening to what you and others say. You wrongly accuse us for giving you the Truth of God. Give me Scripture and I am kindly answer you. You are given clear passages that don't need hermeneutical interpretation, yet your reject them. Here is Paul speaking to believers at Ephesus,
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself" (Eph. 1:4,5). pretty simple, yet you do not belief it. You might say, that is only one, but there is many, but you reject the Truth of God just like the lost reject the Truth of God.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


love wins, you ask,
"Where does the writer of Hebrews get the notion that Esau was a fornicator"
many of the translations have "sexually immoral" or just "Immoral." The others have "fornicator" which means the same thing. In the context it refers to sexual immoral in general. Apostasy is closely linked to immorality. Esau desired God's blessings, but he did not want God. He regretted what he had done, but he did not repent. Esau is an example of someone who willingly sins against God and are not given a second chance. He was a also an example of a 'profane person."
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


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LindaH., scripture is absolute perfection presented by absolute depravity ---aka

2 Peter 1:21

The Holy Ghost is not depraved.

I'm not high-minded. Simply tired of people twisting Gods word to make him the very things that He says He is not! And all for their own glorification as the "elect".
---LindaH on 6/26/13


You give em scripture and they ignore it...every...single...time.

Like I said, its a sickness. You can debate with these people all day long. If they wont listen to the Holy Spirit, they will not listen to you.
---LindaH on 6/26/13

LindaH., scripture is absolute perfection presented by absolute depravity. it is difficult. Why so high-minded?
---aka on 6/26/13


You give em scripture and they ignore it...every...single...time.

Like I said, its a sickness. You can debate with these people all day long. If they wont listen to the Holy Spirit, they will not listen to you.
---LindaH on 6/26/13


A-servent, you said,
"
"God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down"- A Servant"

No servant. God predestines our paths and directs our steps,
"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" ( Prov. 31:15). That should be comfort for all believers, "My times are in Thy hand" (Psa. 31:15) we should say let me:
"Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him" (Psa. 37:7). Men may boast that they are free agents, with a will of their own, and are at liberty to do as they please, but they ought to say,
"If the Lord wills" (James 1:13,15). To the children of God, there is no boasting.

---Mark_V. on 6/25/13


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"God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down"- A Servant

Exactly! Thats even supported by scripture.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
---Jasheradan on 6/24/13


They are not exclusive of each other. Basically, God predestines our paths, but we still choose which path to walk down, as such the consequences fall on us and God cannot be blamed for our decisions and circumstances.
---A_servant on 6/22/13


willie_c: on 6/7/13

you don't know how much your post helped me understand (or better yet) try not to understand how somebody could throw everything away for so little.

it also helps me better understand what seeking something "carefully" means with no actual repentance.

mostly, it helps me not to get sucked backed into "careful" situations.

Thanks.
---aka on 6/22/13


I think birthright represents God's plan for esau to inherit the kingdom.But he as a person chooses in his own free will to exchange it for worldy and momentarily satisfaction.
we sometimes do act like Esau when we make decisions not in accordance to God's will and taking things into our hands without seeking God first..
likewise salvation is for all but not all accept this free gift...
---mj on 6/9/13


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Aka, Yes. "Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright as of this day. "And Esau said, "Look, I am about to die, so what is this birthright to me?" and Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils, then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright. Gen 25:31-34
Esau indeed had the right and the privilege as the first born to receive the birth right. However, Father in His "eternal now" knew before Esau born that he would hold that right in disdain, or contempt, thus Father loved Esau less than Jacob. For Jacob desired it.
Personal I believe that if indeed Esau was "predestined" to receive that birth right, he would have received it. And would have chosen differently.
---joseph on 6/8/13


They certainly are not exclusive as some teach (in my opinion), they will work together with God's foreknowledge and sovereignty to bring about the greater purpose of God, and simply that's what the whole of Romans 9 is about if you ask me, and that sentiment is summed up nicely in the words "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

This is God saying I will do as I must to accomplish the word I have spoken (Is. 55:11) and NOTHING shall withstand it.
---Pharisee on 6/7/13


aka, that's the translation in my Bible. Maybe it's incorrect...
---Love.wins on 6/7/13


Hi, aka (c: It says he was rejected though he sought carefully with tears. I think this could mean his tears were not of true repentance, but merely regretting how he had blown his inheritance.

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but the sorrow of the world produces death." (2 Corinthians 7:10)
---willie_c: on 6/7/13


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Hebrews 12:16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I think it is the profane part that applies to Esau

predestination and choice are exclusive of each other.

Esau was predestined to receive the birth right, he choose not to accept it
---francis on 6/6/13


love.wins,

it doesn't say that.
---aka on 6/6/13


Where does the writer of Hebrews get the notion that Esau was a fornicator?
---Love.wins on 6/6/13


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