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Who Did Jesus Die For

For whom did Christ really die for? Did He hang on the cross for every man who ever lived, without exception? Or did Jesus die for the elect of God exclusively?

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 ---christan on 6/6/13
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"They give explanations always mix the Sovereignty of God and free will together in one sentence."

They're both a part of our world, the choices we make for God are Free for us to make, if related to him in Christ we have the power and authority to make those choices as God sees fit to insert his grace and kingdom into them, but choices from the carnal mind carry penalty of further alienated darkening and calamity (the wages of sin is death) We can operate in God's sovereignty by free will. Self willed choice is slavery to sin. Outside of our existence Everything is known in advance and in that way determined and destined to happen. Were approaching the matter from two perspectives that are both true in the moment in our time.
---Pharisee on 6/16/13


Markv, Christ died for the whole world. I could have rejected Christ but HE WAS dealing with a wicked heart and I chose to accept or reject.the scriptures are very clear. The predestined is anyone who will accept Christ. Scripture is very clear concerning predestined.
---shira4368 on 6/16/13


"Does that mean that you have not confessed your sins, repented of them and asked for forgiveness?" jerry6593

Nice try old wily one. According to Scripture, God does not save the sinner because he repented of his sins.

Confessing of your sin and repentance to God is merely the consequence of one being saved by grace. Simply to mean, one will repent the minute the Spirit of God regenerates the sinner, that's why it's called salvation by grace.

According to your doctrine, your god saves you because you first repented, that is, your god becomes obligated to your call. That's wreaks of salvation by works!
---christan on 6/16/13


Jesus indeed didn't die for everyone of mankind He created.

did Paul separated himself or was it God who did the separation?
---christan on 6/15/13

Then you are in trouble christan
How do you know that God has separated you, or did you separate yourself?

Do not tell me it is so because you believe it to be so. People once believed the earth to be flat, that did not make it so

How do you know that Jesus died for you?

How do you personally know that you were predestined to be saved?

Based on your belief you may very well be predestined to be lost and doomed in eternal fire, and just do not yet know it'
---francis on 6/16/13


Christan: " I'm saved, nothing that I have done that He should save me. Nothing at all."

Does that mean that you have not confessed your sins, repented of them and asked for forgiveness?

How do you know that you are saved? Are you the judge of your righteousness rather than God?



---jerry6593 on 6/16/13




Pharisee, the arrogant and unapproachable are those who believe in free will. First, because it is not found in Scripture. Second, because sinful man is saying a Holy and Just God cannot approach him until sinful man gives our Omnipotent God permission. Third, because if you are one of the saved (the elect) you complain you don't want to be one. Then says,
" Not everything is absolutely predestined, there's no reason for evil to exist if that's true because then God himself commits sin and is not holy but is dualistic in nature."
When you sin, does God make you? Is He forcing you to sin? Why do you blame God for your sin? Evil exist by His permission. And He will do away with sin when He is good and ready.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/13


You suffer from exclusivity .....
John 15:6. So much so for the power of the blood line hey?
---Nana on 6/14/13

Below is the verse following. We have a choice of all words abiding in us including the prophets..... or just the word that we like. You wouldn't be so fearful of truth you don't understand, if you sought truth rather than comfort.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

The "exclusive" word "only" below....means only in this marriage.

Amo_3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
---Trav on 6/16/13


Though Christs death for sin was credited to all believers, even of past ages, it was not proclaimed until sometime after the cross, when God in grace saved Saul of Tarsus, the chief of sinners (I Tim. 1:15). This is why Paul says Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It was when Saul, was saved that God began to show to him that Christ had died as a ransom for all, and God sent him to proclaim this message.

This is why Pauls epistles are filled with references to salvation through the cross, the death, the blood of Christ. And it is on this basis that the Apostle offers to all salvation by grace, through faith in the finished work of Christ, and proclaims to all the simple offer of salvation:
---michael_e on 6/16/13


"Then you are in trouble my friend. How do you know that God has separated you, or did you separate yourself?" francis

First and foremost, don't call me your "friend". Based on our believe of the Bible, we are separated by the Word and are not one in Christ. By virtue of that, we are "enemies".

The problem for you is I believe in the fact and truth that separation and salvation from the world is 100% the work of God, with the sinner contributing NOTHING but just sinned against God. And by His mercy and grace, I'm saved, nothing that I have done that He should save me. Nothing at all.

On the other hand, you reject this truth and not only that, even have the audacity to mock this truth.
---christan on 6/15/13


did Paul separated himself or was it God who did the separation?
---christan on 6/15/13

Then you are in trouble my friend
How do you know that God has separated you, or did you separate yourself?

Acts 17:30 but now ( GOD) commandeth ALL MEN every where to repent:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
---francis on 6/15/13




francis, you show verses that proves a sold fact and point that Jesus indeed didn't die for everyone of mankind He created. In fact it's recorded by Paul himself who confessed,

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood." Galatians 1:15,16 - did Paul separated himself or was it God who did the separation?

As for 1 John 2:2, the apostle was speaking to only the Christians and the world implicated tells us even the apostle didn't know who God has chosen but they are indeed all over the world but not everybody in the world.
---christan on 6/15/13


For whom did Christ really die for?
---christan on 6/6/13

1 Timothy 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
---francis on 6/15/13


The Bible says that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8). HE DIED FOR SINNERS! I guess that leaves you "elect" types out.



---jerry6593 on 6/15/13


"Scripture may be causing your dizziness."
--Trav on 6/14/13

You suffer from the same exclusivity complex as christan and mark5.
They spend their days trying to convince the weak and the unsuspecting that when the word says whosoever
as in "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.", that it really says whosoever of the elect.
You replace the same word with whosoever of the blood line of Israel which is myopic in my view since blood or no blood, whomever abides not in the vine is cast into the fire and burned, John 15:6. So much so for the power of the blood line hey?
---Nana on 6/14/13


"Is a 'Gentile' to you a member of the house of Israel? What is a 'Sheep' to you, a lost soul from the house of Israel?" Nana

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Romans 9:6-8

"To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice: and HE CALLETH HIS OWN SHEEP BY NAME, and leadeth them out." John 10:3
---christan on 6/14/13


Ruben, there's nothing to interpret in John 6:37, it says what it says, period.

You mock the atonement work of Christ, that's because your view of "universal atonement" actually puts a much more stringent limitation on the redemptive work of Christ after He explicitly declared, "It is finished."

If Christ's death simply made salvation possible, and every individual has the atonement available provided they claim it, then you are saying Christ didn't actually save anyone! That's because it now depends on the man. Really?

"Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible..."

But you say, "it's possible". Who's the liar?
---christan on 6/14/13


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And your point is?
Trav, you are just going around in circles.
Spell out what is it that you mean with:

Is a 'Gentile' to you a member of the house of Israel?
What is a 'Sheep' to you, a lost soul from the house of Israel?

---Nana on 6/13/13

Scripture may be causing your dizziness.
Starting at your last question...the "sheep" are the divorced Northern House of Israel. 10 adulterating tribes.
Gentile is a latin word, R.C. promoted, from the original Greek and Hebrew "nations" or "ethnos".
In context referring to the nations or ethnos of Israel. Honoring Jesus's pronouncements....and Jeremiah's and Isaiah's etc.
---Trav on 6/14/13


christan * John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." v44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

It is a continuing process at a one time event. If you keep coming the Father, he will keep drawing you, no where does it say he will stop drawing at some time!

christan * John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

But yet, one that the Father give to Jesus left(Judas).
---Ruben on 6/14/13


1 Tim 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all.."

The Bible rightly divided teaches God isn't to be blamed for choices of ignorant and unsaved humanity (Rom 3:3-4)."For what if some did not believe?" Choice.

We also learn we are not living in the times of prophetic fulfillment. Rather he is at this time declaring free salvation to all through the preaching of the cross.

God is not operating according to Dan 2:21-23 nor Matthew 24:3-6 today. Both of those passages describe God as he worked under the covenants with Israel and the Gentiles.

Being strangers of the covenants means we are not in the conditional national relationship with God as was Israel in time past (Eph 2:12).
---michael_e on 6/14/13


And your point is?

Trav, you are just going around in circles.
Spell out what is it that you mean with:

"And he has, then there is more light for you.
It does not change the covenanted scripture for the bride."

"They, although most understand it not are the ones who have brought forth the fruit to this day."

Is a 'Gentile' to you a member of the house of Israel?
What is a 'Sheep' to you, a lost soul from the house of Israel?
---Nana on 6/13/13


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1 Tim 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all.." Is this really universal atonement that Paul was teaching? Try reading the following...

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." v44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture, period. It just calls out your understanding as being erroneous.
---christan on 6/13/13


And your point is?

---Nana on 6/12/13

Point was your previous post. You said as long as I wasn't implying.....

I've implied/applied/pointed only to witness scripture that prophets,apostles and YAHshua honor and refer witness too.
Some honor the prophets witness....most avoid, disparage or kill those who point to them. They do not fit the doctrines of today for them.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears,
2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Sheep recognize truth when confirmed with witnesses.<
---Trav on 6/13/13


Shira, you say,
"I am one who believes in free will." Free will for salvation is not found in the Bible.
" how did God choose "you". why don't He choose "others"?"
It was in love that He predestined us, you and me, unto adoption of children of Christ, the purpose "According to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:5). Then ask,
"why did Jesus Christ come to earth and was crucified?" The curse under which sinners have fallen, cannot be removed nor the transgressor released until full satisfaction has been made. Man cannot satisfy the law he broke. Jesus said,
"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"
---Mark_V. on 6/13/13


//For whom did Christ really die for?//

1 Tim 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all.."
Phil 3:8-9 Paul wrote, "... I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith ...." Christ's sacrifice will cleanse only those who believe that He died for our sins and rose again, but the sacrifice is available to all people for the sins of all people.
---michael_e on 6/12/13


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"I only point to the pointers. Some must kill the scriptural witnesses again, some welcome them. Some are fearful some test them. "
---Trav on 6/12/13

And your point is?
---Nana on 6/12/13


I'll explain the demonic trap of hyper calvinism, it makes Christians behave as if their sin is of no consequence, it makes them arrogant, unapproachable, squelchers of grace because they believe it's for them only, it's ego driven, also it denies the very fact that it's makes an unrighteous act on God's part to judge everyman according to his deeds since God made them do them. the Bible says it's NOT GOOD to have respect of persons in judgement, and that God is no respecter of persons. Not everything is absolutely predestined, there's no reason for evil to exist if that's true because then God himself commits sin and is not holy but is dualistic in nature. Evil doesn't exist at the ordinance of God, if so, how do we call it rebellion?
---Pharisee on 6/12/13


markv, I am one who believes in free will. how did God choose "you". why don't He choose "others"? why did Jesus Christ come to earth and was crucified? I believe God wants to save the whole world. how can you not see that? why do you think sinners reject God? I watched my husband under conviction and when he slipped out of the pew, I almost shouted. then, he ducked out the door. God did not deal with him again for appr 10 yrs. I spent that time praying God would give him another chance. God honored my prayer and my husband was saved Feb 25, 2004. my husband changed 180 degrees. he did a flip flop. threw the wine bottle away and lived for Christ. I give God all the glory and honor.
---shira4368 on 6/12/13


Pharisee, let me explain something that I see all the time. All the people here who speak on behalf of free will, when they give explanations always mix the Sovereignty of God and free will together in one sentence. It is the language some christians use that is wrong. So when we read what someone says, we see that right away. In one sentence they give all the glory to God, while on the other, they take credit for their own salvation. When I read your statement, I only answered to the part where you gave the glory to God. Christan answered to the other part of your statement when you suggest it was your own faith that saved you. I saw that too but did not answer to that part.
---Mark_V. on 6/12/13


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As long as you are not implying that them covenated are somewhat 'Lords and Masters' of us Johnny-come-lately, or that they by mere birth attain to Salvation, I am fine with that.
Let the luminaries shine, shine on!
---Nana on 6/11/13

Are servants Lords?
Is the bride of a GOD a queen?

I only point to the pointers. Some must kill the scriptural witnesses again, some welcome them. Some are fearful some test them.
The Rock is a grindstone for many.

Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
---Trav on 6/12/13


You know Christan I've been sitting here writing and editing, rewriting and reediting.
Changing the words around, trying to find a way to tell you.

Just because my brother doesn't know he is my brother.
You see where I'm trying to go with this?

But, God keeps telling me, if your brothers don't know you're their brother.
They will try to kill you, just as they did me!
I will shut-up now!

Is this why they said speak ye all the same thing.
Sometimes your words amaze me. Even when I try to change them I can't.
I turn yet another page, thank you Brother Christan.

And yes I know if even the smallest things were left up to me.
I'd be lost forever!
Amen
---TheSeg on 6/11/13


To The Seg,

I appreciate your effort to be a "peace-maker" between parties you presume are brothers in Jesus Christ. For me to call one a brother in Christ, I am admonished by the apostle John to test the spirit and vice-versa.

So far, I will only confess here that MarkV and yourself are my brothers in Christ, though we have never met in person.

As Christians, everyday is a "spiritual warfare", especially with the likes of those who claim they are saved because of their "free-will". I don't sit on the fence with the doctrine of "free-will" nor regard it to be truth. Tthe good Lord has set us free, why are we ashamed to proclaim that salvation is all of Him 100% and man ZERO?
---christan on 6/11/13


a pastor friend of mine has a great saying....if 2 people go into a house of many rooms and each go into a separate room. each will see things the other one didn't see but both of them were in the same house.
---shira4368 on 6/11/13


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"And he has, then there is more light for you.
It does not change the covenanted scripture for the bride."
---Trav on 6/11/13

As long as you are not implying that them covenated are somewhat 'Lords and Masters' of us Johnny-come-lately, or that they by mere birth attain to Salvation, I am fine with that.

Let the luminaries shine, shine on!
---Nana on 6/11/13


///So, while you see fit to stand on your pedestal and criticize others for their belief,\\\

You don't know what your talking about. If you read every scrum I've been in on here you'll notice something, not once, no not once, have I gone after someone else in here. In every case it was someone challenging me first, and that's why I'm calling you out for what your being, an abusive busy body.

Furthermore I've not called someone's integrity to question as you have mine. The hypocrisy you imagine on my part is all from your own guilty conscience. Moreover the matter of my conversion is not the question of any topic here on Christianet I brought it up to make a point. I'm bound to neither defend or explain myself to you.
---Pharisee on 6/11/13


Isaiah 49:5_6 ..... I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."
---Nana on 6/11/13

And he has, then there is more light for you.
It does not change the covenanted scripture for the bride.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
---Trav on 6/11/13


Pharisee, christan, Mark_V. this is The, as Jerry would say.
I don't like being a busy body!

What I'm hearing is, if you prayed to him.
It's was because you already believed he is.
If you didn't believe he was, you would have never prayed to him!

I have a question for you.
In your prayers to him did you get on your knee and ask for forgiveness. I have a feeling you did.

If we are really Brothers in Christ, should we have to ask each other for your forgiveness?
When Christ called, which of us heard confess first?

Didn't we all confess after we heard him?
So he loved us first.

Just saying maybe we should do the same.
Just maybe right!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/11/13


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Pharisee, too bad for you but we're in a public domain - which means what we write and post is open for scrutiny.

You seem to practice double standards - that is while it's fine for you to criticize someone and even call names at your whims and fancies, you take offence when you're being challenged to produce what you claim to be truth.

We're not discussing who baked the cake or which hollywood star is seeing who. We're on the topic of salvation and about the Lord Jesus Christ. So, while you see fit to stand on your pedestal and criticize others for their belief, I suggest you take it like a man when you're being challenged on yours.

Bottomline, grow-up!
---christan on 6/11/13


Hey christian.

Is this really something we need to talk about?

You know the word, do you not know what it says about being a busy body? Or about being contentious?

Well I'll tell you that your definitely not operating in love. first I didn't offer what I said so that you could scrutinize it, I made the truth known to make the point that the Spirit of God has a burden for the lost, all of them... I was making the point it didn't come from me, I'm not willing to discuss my salvation with someone who is hostile toward me. Please leave me alone and don't address me personally any further. If you want to talk turkey about what I believe have at it. As for personal inquiry I will no longer answer you.
---Pharisee on 6/10/13


Isaiah 49:5_6 "And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."
---Nana on 6/11/13


Pharisee, Christan is my brother in Christ. His not me, I am not him. His from another country, a different nationality then I. I am a hispanic from Texas of the US of A. His very solid in the Word of God. I am learning more and more each day. You said,
"The fact is it was God's supernatural power that made me believe, I was shown things I could explain no other way, God literally made me to believe."
I would say you are correct and I am glad you admited it. Without the power of God you would still be dead in your sins. Your own free will did not save you, God did. Yet He does not do the same to all people. To some the Word comes to them in power and the Holy Spirit, and to others it doesn't. Read (1 Thess. 1:4,5).
---Mark_V. on 6/10/13


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Yes, and I find this key:
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
John 1:11_12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
---Nana on 6/10/13

The undivorced nation/house was Judah that would receive him not. His own ethnos/nationality.

The Lost Sheep House was the northern house of Israel of Ten. Who at Jesus's death would be free from the marriage by widowhood...as is Judah.

They, although most understand it not are the ones who have brought forth the fruit to this day.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 6/10/13


"I said what I said to show that God's power in me made me desire for the lost to be saved." pharisee

I ask you - did you come to the knowledge of Christ because God chose you before the foundations of the world to reveal Himself to you or did you come to Christ because "i was an atheist and I was changed instantaneously the first time I ever prayed to him in faith".

Sounds like according to you, God changed you because "you prayed to him in faith". How's that even possible when the Bible declared, "... there is none that seeketh after God."

Sounds like you made yourself out to be an exception.
---christan on 6/10/13


Go ye therefore, and (teach all nations), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And he said unto them, Go ye into (all the world), and preach the gospel to every creature.

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name (among all nations), beginning at Jerusalem.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even (the world itself could not contain the books) that should be written. Amen.

Peace
---TheSeg on 6/10/13


Yes, and I find this key:
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
We also find in the book of John, testifying of the same:
John 1:11_12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

And 2 Chronicles 6:32_33.
---Nana on 6/10/13


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Trav, it's 1 Timothy 4:10. God bless you.
---Love.wins on 6/10/13


God is the Saviour of all mankind. That's the Gospel. It's a wonderful gospel too!

---Love.wins on 6/9/13

Couldn't find your scripture above. Found this one though.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:6 ButG1161 goG4198 ratherG3123 toG4314 the lostG622 sheepG4263 of the houseG3624 of Israel.G2474
---Trav on 6/10/13


christian I am not boasting you have spoken presumptuously. The fact is it was God's supernatural power that made me believe, I was shown things I could explain no other way, God literally made me to believe.

I said what I said to show that God's power in me made me desire for the lost to be saved.

Now I'll speak presumptuously isn't it true that you and Mark V are the same person?
---Pharisee on 6/10/13


Joh_5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh_5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/10/13


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God is the Saviour of all mankind. That's the Gospel. It's a wonderful gospel too!
---Love.wins on 6/9/13


Pharisee, you also said,
"aka you proved my point... the verse from Isaiah says "when I called no one answered" He's reached out to everyone who ever lived." That is not true. In the context of Isaiah He reached out to Israel, not every single person who lived. Only Israel had the oracles of God. All the other nations be damned. Even today the good news of the gospel has not reached every single person. Why do you think we have missionaries? Billions of people never heard the gospel. And even when they do, it will not come in power and the Holy Spirit to everyone who hears it. Read (1 Thess. 1:4,5). It is written.
---Mark_V. on 6/10/13


Pharisee, compare what you say "I was changed instantaneously the first time I ever prayed to him in faith." to what Paul wrote:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Note the "faith" Paul speaks about here is a gift of God". In other words, it's the "gift of faith from God that actually saves the sinner. Whereas you are boasting that it's your faith from within yourself that when you prayed to God, He became obligated to save you.

God isn't obligated to anyone, period.
---christan on 6/10/13


christan: You are a fulfillment of prophecy! Jesus said:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You've been deceived by this hellish doctrine. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, when there were but two people. That means that ALL mankind is covered by His sacrifice. Your contention that God would create billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them with fire is blasphemous.


---jerry6593 on 6/10/13


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Matthew 7:13_14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"
---Nana on 6/10/13


Pharisee, the "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" is not referring to every mankind created BUT only in reference to the elect of God, i.e. ALL of God's elect will be saved and not all of mankind. If only you bother to compare Scripture with Scripture that you will realise your doctrine of universal atonement is erroneous to say the least.

If according to your understanding, Jesus Christ then failed in His mission and that's because multitudes are in Hades as we speak.

Jesus's death redeemed His people that the Father GAVE to Him, period. His death did not make man saveable but saved God's elect.
---christan on 6/9/13


geez markv, you are doing it again. when some read your post, they are going to think God chose "you" to be saved while not choosing others. sinners need to know God can save them thru Jesus Christ.
---shira4368 on 6/9/13


Pharisee, I'm not questioning your salvation, but responding to your passages. (2 Peter 3:9) is talking about "the elect." Those God chose before the foundation of the world. He does not want any of them to perish but that all come to repentance. When they do, they become believers. He is not saying He wants every single person to come to rependance since (v. 7) "the heavens and earth which are now preserved by the same word, "are reserved for fire until the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
The "any" in (v.9) must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed, the "us." Since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked.
---Mark_V. on 6/9/13


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Mark V are you saying God's people need now to again come to repentance? Those who've already renounced sin to follow Christ trusted in him and his atonement for them is not enough? Believers perish? That's inconsistent with much of what we call truth in the NT.

Let's just agree that we disagree about the gospel concerning the matter, because #1 I don't believe a gospel where believers perish, #2 I know God wills for all to be saved because of the incredible burden I have for the lost that came from his spirit alone.

I came to God through his power, i was an atheist and I was changed instantaneously the first time I ever prayed to him in faith. i cared about the lost all of a sudden.
---Pharisee on 6/8/13


aka you proved my point... the verse from Isaiah says "when I called no one answered" He's reached out to everyone who ever lived. It's a kindness that by their own choosing became their destruction.

I wish more people could grasp this, It says in the Bible it's "not good" to show respect of persons in Judgment. This is part of what he commands for us, and also says "be ye holy as I am holy."

God cannot command us to entreat everyone gracefully without he himself first doing so, if you say that's not true am I more graceful then God?
---Pharisee on 6/8/13


Pharisee, of course God desires that no one sin, yet all sin, and desires that people love Him and only believers do. You gave (1 Tim. 2:4) and compared it with (2 Peter 3:9). In your hurry, you gave two passages that do not speak of the same topic. (2 Peter 3:9) is speaking about the "elect" the "us" the beloveth in (v.8). "He is not willing that any should parish but that all come to repentance" Here, He is not talking about all people in the world, since (v.6,7) are talking about those God "has reserved for fire until the day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
You see, God is not waiting for all people to come to rependance.
You need to read the context.
---Mark_V. on 6/8/13


Willie, the passag you gave,
"And Jesus calls to "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30)." This passage are speaking to believers only. Only they come to Christ because only they have faith. He could have spoken to a whole group of people, yet only those with faith would answer. You see
willie, it is written of the lost,
"There is none righteous, no, not one.
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks after God"
(Rom. 3:10,11). Unbelievers do not seek after God.
---Mark_V. on 6/8/13


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pharisee

I do not mind washing the dishes and clothes, but I take no delight in putting the dishes and clothes away. however, there is a purpose and it must be done.

Isa_66:4 I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen, but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."
---aka on 6/8/13


Good post Nana, love wins. "how can the God of all comfort" at the same time be the God of all hopelessness by his own choosing- John said "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." The bible elsewhere says he takes no delight in the destruction of the wicked, no servant greater than his master he's commanded us the same, Pro 24:17 God only delights in what is good, it is good for an end of sin to come, so it's only by sovereignty that it's to his glory that any perish. He first loves anyone before damning them or his holiness is incomplete.(even though we know there's some he's hated) It's a "whosoever" gospel or God's word has been falsely reported by the very word and teachings of Christ.
---Pharisee on 6/7/13


Yes, Jesus' sacrifice includes every human being without exception. That is the Good News. Any other news is bad news and can't be termed Gospel.
---Love.wins on 6/7/13


christian,it's not a contradictory statement, he's simply spoken of the elect, the scripture you cited doesn't exclude his desire for any to be saved, and in fact doesn't mention anyone but the elect. however both Peter and Paul in their epistles (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9) say plainly that it's God's will that all men would be saved!

Did they write by the inspiration of the Spirit or not? If they did you need to ask yourself how you came to believe doctrines that are contradictory to the revealed nature of God through his apostles and the Holy Spirit.
---Pharisee on 6/7/13


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Pharisee, amazing how you arrived at "Jesus given the opportunity would have died for all, that was the inclination of his heart".

Christ contradicts you as He told us explicitly, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Christ's mission was very specific or He wouldn't have spoke with His last breath "It is finished.", meaning, mission accomplished.

And yet according to you, the man still has to choose? If that be your case, Christ shouldn't have said "It is finished" since salvation was only made possible according to your doctrine.
---christan on 6/7/13


This theological idea of limited atonement is such an obvious truth we never should have needed to make a doctrine out of it.

Jesus given the opportunity would have died for all, that was the inclination of his heart, that's the splendid agape love of God, this sentiment is expressed in the New Testament.

Obviously he cannot pay the penalty for those that refuse to receive him and reject his authority as the Heaven sent Savior of the world and mighty God of the ages.
---Pharisee on 6/7/13


"Since all of creation was made by God we are all his children." Scott

Seriously? Is this what the Scripture declared? Hmmm... wonder if Paul got it wrong when he wrote:

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8

Let's see, Paul's a chosen apostle of Jesus Christ which means what He wrote is absolute truth. That means, your claim above is nothing but a blatant lie.
---christan on 6/7/13


Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Is all Jerusalem 'the elect', of course. Are they all saved, no.
Why not?

John 1:11 "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Predestinarians are like them who said, "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"
---Nana on 6/7/13


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I read what you say Mark. But I believe what the Bible says.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This and John 3,16 You cannot get limited atonement. You also cannot show irresitiable Grace. All are convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/7/13


\\Only the Elect that YHWH gave Christ. See John Chapter 17!!!
---Blogger9211 on 6/6/13\\

But Christ IS YHVH Incarnate!

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/7/13


First of all, the Bible nowhere directly says "elect only". And John has given us 1 John 2:2 > "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) It does not say "for the elect only", here.

And Jesus calls to "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30).

There are ones calling themselves "elect", who do not obey how Jesus calls us to "rest for your souls."
---willie_c: on 6/7/13


Bro. Christan, Jesus died for the elect only. Those whom the Father gave Him. The Covenant of Redemption was a covenant or agreement between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world. The Father was the promiser, and Jesus was the undertaker who voluntarily agreed together in counsel to achive a common purpose "the glory of God and the salvation of the elect"
The Father required the Son to take the place of the elect by becoming the second Adam and fulfilling all righteousness through His obedience. The Son agreed, fulfilled the conditions, and received His reward of a kingdom and glory with His redeemed people.
---Mark_V. on 6/7/13


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Let me use a parable. Do you still love your children and want what is best for them, even if they rebel against you? Since all of creation was made by God we are all his children. There is no other creator. yes, some will reject God and God will say "I never knew you" but the mysteries of God allow him the good father to LOVE unconditionally even knowing that someone will ultimately reject him.

As Moody said, "God save the elect and elect some more."
---Scott1 on 6/7/13


Jesus died for every person who ever lived. John 12:32, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Timothy 4:10, 2 Corinthians 5:19. ...
---Love.wins on 6/6/13


Only the Elect that YHWH gave Christ. See John Chapter 17!!!
---Blogger9211 on 6/6/13


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