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Predestination With Free Will

Have you ever considered that predestination and free will are both true at the same time? Maybe you should, the Bible expresses both. I believe Both and know both are true (though I will not explain how) how can you believe one part of the scripture and not the other? Reconcile them if you can...

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 ---Pharisee on 6/11/13
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Romans 11:32 - For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It ties all the free will grace verses together neatly in a once and for all statement to anything to the contrary, he goes on to say that the same salvation came to Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

What the ultimate sovereignty proponents can't pull together is that God is so great he's building the Kingdom for his people according to good FREE choice in Christ, and our free will is working out salvation in the gift he gave us, The lost are enslaved to their passions the only free choice comes when we start to serve God, but man was made from the very 1st to commune with God, The one thing Creation NEVER needed was EVIL!
---Fastball_center_plate. on 6/14/13


for thy pleasure they are and were created...

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live, turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

(Eze 33:11)

Once again christian your warped view of God has dropped the ball on the goal line. If his pleasure is not the death of the wicked he's created everything with another purpose in mind. Figure it out. God created evil by allowing free choice, the chief angel made the choice and evil entered creation. end of story.
---Pharisee on 6/14/13


Gordon again why are we blaming God?
Did God tell Adam and Eve to eat from the tree? No!
He said don't eat from the tree! But, they ate from it anyway!

So why aren't you blaming God for this too?
God created the tree didn't he? It must be God fault.
Isn't this what you're saying about evil?

Because he created it, it's his fault.
Why is it his fault when he created evil.
And not his fault when he created the tree of good and evil?

This is the very definition of hypocrisy
You guys are just the same as Adam and Eve!

The woman whom thou gavest!
The serpent beguiled me!
Why can you guys just see the truth of it?
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/14/13


"Did GOD make Lucifer rebel against HIM? IF so, then why would GOD eternally punish Satan for merely doing what GOD created him to do??" Gordon

In reply to your comment, Paul the apostle of Jesus Christ wrote: "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? NAY BUT, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Romans 9:18-20

Uncanny isn't it? Written some two thousand years ago and still fitting for the present day and mind you, the days to come till the Lord returns. Awesome isn't it?
---christan on 6/14/13


TheSeg, right on the nail, "You can't see the very reason it was created for!". Evil to these so-called "believers" (hypocrites) exist outside of the will and purpose of God Almighty, which to them is another god since God was not their creator, though Scripture explicitly declares it to be so.

Evil and the wicked are such a vital plan of God's demonstration of His love and wrath, which btw is rooted in His Holiness, that without them, salvation and condemnation cannot be exercised by Him. John declares it best in Revelation 4:11,

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
---christan on 6/14/13




TheSeq, Why is it so hard to understand that GOD is not the Author of Evil, in the way that some here are implying??

Tell me, Seq,
Did GOD create the kind of evil that lead Lucifer to become so full of arrogance and pride that it moved him to aspire in usurping GOD's Throne??

Was that of GOD?

Did GOD make Lucifer rebel against HIM?

IF so, then why would GOD eternally punish Satan for merely doing what GOD created him to do??

So, does GOD get some kind of a divine rush off of being able to create beings just to cast them into eternal, fiery torments??

You need to think better on this.

GOD is not unjust.

You're misunderstanding what GOD means when HE says that HE does evil.
---Gordon on 6/14/13


nurse Robert, why don't you go one day without toothpaste and deodorant? yes it was off the subject like so many post are off the subject. we have mailed care packages to many of our missionaries. one of our missionaries had a fatal car crash. that was in the ivory coast. their friend died and my friend had her back broke in several places and her husband broke arm in a couple of places. the hospital there had no pain medication and they set his arm without anything. they air lifted his wife back to the states where she got medical care. I was relaying how our missionaries suffer trying to serve the Lord.
---shira4358 on 6/14/13


Mark V, I have read the Bible and studied the books, chapters and verses. Then I studied the very words. It shows that you have read (maybe) or heard (likely) only part of it.
I used to think you were a confused christian. Now I just think you are confused. How can anyone like you live for the Lord when you only accept part of what He said and then confuse the rest. If there is no Tribulation when do christians receive their rewards/crowns?
Are we living under Old Testament Law or has the dispensation of Grace came about? If there are no dispensations then there can not be an age of Grace.
We even have dispensations in life, Baby, young child, pre-teen, teen, adult and then senior. You outta try that adult part once.
---Elder on 6/14/13


(No Seg, nobody is saying it came into existence by itself)
Oh but yes they are, as you yourself!

(it's true whats been said it has to have a host)
There is no host in Eph_6:12. Just pure evil itself, no one else!

(so it had to come through some other means,)
See Seg nobody! Just some other means!

I just love this next part!
[(yes God created everything so thereby he created the evil too.)

(James/about/tempted, if God DIRECTLY created evil that verse is no longer true.)
Oh! Yes, but not really!]

God also created the tree of good and evil?
Did he create it to temp them?
But yet you say and believe if God created evil, it was to temp man.
Why?
---TheSeg on 6/14/13


No Seg, nobody is saying it came into existence by itself, it's true whats been said it has to have a host, God cannot be that host because the scripture says in him is no darkness at all, so it had to come through some other means, and yes God created everything so thereby he created the evil too. You quoted the verse from James about men being tempted, if God DIRECTLY created evil that verse is no longer true. Tempted by our flesh? Yes, in direct relation to what he's created, the internal is tempted of the external (the world, Satan) without those two factor no man can be tempted and YES God made them both but if we say he did it actively we deny many other great truths. "no darkness at all" in God.
---Pharisee on 6/14/13




Seg, this was part of my original contention in the challenge I made, we can't say evil is good, God's word condemns that- Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil, so with that I must ask you what is the "good" purpose that evil exists?

All that is written is not explained, for some things need to be explained "if any of you lack wisdom" so it was "very good" and something was evil- not possible according to Is. 5:20

Holiness is not holiness when it breaks it's own laws, that's hypocrisy, God is not a hypocrite or his sovereignty is forfeit. He commands no respect of persons AND to love even our enemies, if he doesn't do it first he's reprobate. God hates? Yes but he loves 1st.
---Pharisee on 6/14/13


seg* Ruben than you are saying Darkness and Evil are like God!

No, what I am saying the word evil In Isaiah 45:7 does not mean what you need for it to say :

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity, I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

The word evil in Hewbrew ( Ra & #770, & #8219,a & #770,h )means "calamity"..-Strong's H7451b

Besides if God created evil why would Jmaes say:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." (James 1:13-14)
---Ruben on 6/14/13


He made the tree of good and evil, did he put it there to temp them?
Because he said do not eat of it?

He made pigs and told the Jews not to eat of them.
Did he do it to temp them.

He created evil did he do it to temp you?
Let no man say then he is temped, I am temped of God.

Think again!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/13/13

Seg,

Those are call free-wiil. You have a choice!

God said " Thou Shall not kill" but yet you read every day someone doing what God said not to do..Again free-will
---Ruben on 6/14/13


And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Gen 1:31
Pharisee

He even beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luk_10:18
Even beheld angels following after Satan, and still call it very good.
And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen_1:31


I'm sorry but you guys are so twisted up with denying the creation of evil.
You can't see the very reason it was created for!

You would rather believe evil came in to existence by itself then believe God.
Even when he clearly says I the LORD do all these things!
Thereby proving its existence, before you even opened your mouths.
And in the same breath, denying its existence in yourselves!
Calling me confused!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/14/13


"hypocrisy and unbelief that they call God a liar"

That's hilarious coming from you considering the KJV has the word "whosoever" 93 times in the New Testament.

You see, I can look at every verse you quote and yes it belongs in my Bible with my view of God's salvation, so also do the 93 whosoevers.

By contrast you must have a lot of verses crossed out of your bible or you have to do some mental acrobatics when you read it to make it fit your theology.

Your the one who doesn't believe the full council of God christian for "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
---Pharisee on 6/14/13


Christan, Yahushua says in JOHN 12:47, "And if any man hear My Words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the World, but to....SAVE THE WORLD."

Christan, in Yahushua's own Words here, does He say that He came to save only "certain sheep"?

Or, does He say that He came to save "the World"?

In JOHN 3:16-17,

"For GOD so loved THE WORLD...that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish..."

"...GOD sent...HIS Son into the World...that THE WORLD through Him might be saved."

No mention of GOD desiring to merely save certain persons, as you've been teaching.

HE came to save the World, the "whosoever wills" of this World.
---Gordon on 6/14/13


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Truly amazing that as God declares what He does and then it's recorded for our consumption, multitudes even after reading what's been printed, deny God his glory and power - especially in the creation of evil and the wicked.

Verses that explicitly declares, "...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" Amos 3:6 - such is their hypocrisy and unbelief that they call God a liar, denying and twisting the verses with their lies.

"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Romans 1:21,22
---christan on 6/13/13


Evil cannot exist by itself. (Exactly! Nor could it create itself)

Tell me how it can? (Forgive me, but if I understand this. You're asking me to tell you how something I said, can't come into existence by itself can. Am I understanding, this?)

Give me an example of evil without its host. (Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.)

Most of you think you're fighting an enemy you can defeat.
And I hope you do. But you don't know him nor do you see him.

So, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/14/13


"...that these Calvinist state GOD hates some men" Samuelbb7

Did the Calvinists write the Bible? Didn't the Bible (regardless of the versions you or I are holding) explicitly declare in Romans 9:13, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."? Wasn't these the very words declared by God Almighty also in Malachi 1:2,3 and not the Calvinists?

All I see is the Calvinist speaking the truth from the Bible as compared to the lies that comes from your heart even though you claim to read the Bible.

Why do you bear false witness against the Word?
---christan on 6/14/13


Elder, you should read the Bible yourself. For there is no future tribulation, there is no Pre trip, that is a Left Behind lie, you are thinking dispensational. Second those 144,000 are elect. But so are all of the people whom God chose before the foundation of the world.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, "even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world," that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In Love He predestined us for adoption through Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved" (Eph. 3-6).
---Mark_V. on 6/14/13


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some don't even have deodrant or toothpaste.
---shira4368 on 6/12/13

Sorry to be off topic here, but..

Shira, do you really believe the rest of the world follows America in the hygiene department? This is a pretty arrogant statement..
---NurseRobert on 6/14/13


satan became evil on his own.
---Nikki on 6/13/13

AMEN

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Gen 1:31

Satan wasn't created in Evil, "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5 There was a time when no evil existed in creation, Satan could not have been tempted with anything until after God made everything "very good" It's the way that God made Satan that permitted him to Rebel. He was made with a choice and God knew in advance he would take it. We're made in God's image to have spiritual potentiality of choice just as God "in the beginning." Otherwise God is not relationally involved in his creation. He is.
---Pharisee on 6/13/13


Seg, your problem is like others who are confused on issues like this. Paul was speaking of the weaker brother and being careful in judging him. He is saying not to condemn each other.
He goes on to state, everyone will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. Some will do that in this life others will do it at the Great White Throne Judgement.
Why do you think words like whosoever will, choose, seek and others are used in Scripture?
Do you think that God has made some to be baby murders? If that were so then it would not be sin and/or God would not be Holy.
Have you noticed in Phil 2:12 Paul speaks of obeying? That is a choice also. You will never understand until you receive the whole of God's Word on this subject.
---Elder on 6/13/13


"Predestined, Chosen, Elect, is not predestined to being saved from hell" JamesL

\\ Really?...
John 6:37...
Romans 8:30...
Ephesians 1:4,5... \\
---christan on 6/13/13

Yes, really.

If you took the time to study the scriptures for yourself instead of learning from reprobates, you might be able to see it

And I'm not sure how you think the scriptures you quoted are against what I said.

After all, I referenced Romans 8:28-30

What's your point? That you know how to take scripture out of context?

Good job. Take a bow, you're one of the best at it
---James_L on 6/13/13


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No, Seg, not accident as you state 'whoops'.

The accident of cold on ice cream.

You can't have a cup of cold.
You can't have a cup of warm.

Not the term accident you are thinking of.

Evil can not exist by itself.
Tell me how it can?
Give me an example of evil without it's host.
---Nikki on 6/13/13


Mark you don't even understand what the word "elect" means in its context. You prove that by what you say.
The word "elect" means, chosen out, select or favorite. Members of the 144,000 in Rev 7 are the elect. They are "chosen" to preach the Gospel during the Tribulation. They are elect. You must be in something to be chosen out.
This has nothing to do with God electing/choosing someone to be saved or lost.
To be simple with you so you understand, what does "any" and "all" mean in II Pet 3:9?
If there is no freewill then what good is the Bible? We wouldn't need it because all would be saved anyway.
Don't reread my statements..... read and study the Bible!
---Elder on 6/13/13


Nikki
I have to say I especially like the:
Ice cream part!
The temperature in space is about -455 degrees Fahrenheit.
So you exactly have to harm ice-cream up!

So evil is an accident.
God made peace and whoops evil.

So when God made the tree of good and evil it was an accident.
Is that really your understanding, evil is an accident?

God wanted to make a good tree and whoops the tree of good and evil?
Now that what I call an interesting story.

But yet God himself, said, I the LORD do all these things!
So in truth, you want to change his words.
And have me believe it, is that about right?
Believe a lie?

Is that really what you want? Peace
---TheSeg on 6/13/13


Gordon, I suggest you read carefully what the Bible declares:

"The Lord HATH MADE ALL THINGS for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: FOR THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11

As compared to your rubbish of "That Verse means that GOD makes use of the evil that is perpetuated by Satan and through mankind."

NOT EVEN CLOSE!
---christan on 6/13/13


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The thing about Predestination that causes the most problem for those who do not believe that men have free will is that these Calvinist state GOD hates some men, women and children and created them so they have to go and burn in hell for all eternity. It is not for anything they have done. GOD designed them to burn in hell for his purpose. Those lucky to be chosen for heaven can go down and listen to their screams of agony and enjoy this lovey music for all eternity.

We have to remember that according to Calvinism GOD is not love.

I reconcile the two that we have free will from our point of view and the choices we make are our own. But that GOD knows what we will choose.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/13/13


Seg, Ruben is saying evil isn't a created thing as it is an accident.
Not mishap of an accident.
But, it has no form of it's own.

Ice cream is cold. Cold is the accident. Without the ice cream there is no coldness.

You can't form cold without something.
Air is cold.
You are cold.

God created me, but he didn't create my sins.
Sin is evil.
satan wasn't created evil. He became evil on his own.
---Nikki on 6/13/13


Ruben than you are saying Darkness and Evil are like God!
If they were not created, then they have always existed.

You decided either they have always existed or they were created.
Even though God is clearly telling you, I the LORD do all these things!

He made the tree of good and evil, did he put it there to temp them?
Because he said do not eat of it?

He made pigs and told the Jews not to eat of them.
Did he do it to temp them.

He created evil did he do it to temp you?
Let no man say then he is temped, I am temped of God.

Think again!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/13/13


///I don't know where you get the idea that God gave man a will that is free or even a free choice. Nowhere are we told that.\\\

Joshua 24:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve"

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life"

"nowhere are we told that" But you've been shown that all throughout the scriptures and now you need it spelled out for you?

"except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Your in denial of what's clearly evident, your like a Muslim who says "show me a verse where Jesus says 'I am God.' see also Mat 3:9
---Pharisee on 6/13/13


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TheSeg * That Verse means that GOD makes use of the evil that is perpetuated by Satan and through mankind.
Gordon

No it does not:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." (James 1:13-14)


TheSeg * Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things!

First of all evil is not really a created thing. Can not see, smell or hear!

Secondly Darkness is the opposite of light, however evil is not to peace!
---Ruben on 6/13/13


Now you've gone a proved to us all your misunderstanding of that Verse with GOD saying that HE "...created evil...".
That Verse means that GOD makes use of the evil that is perpetuated by Satan and through mankind.
Gordon

Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:

How can you see evil, if God did not create it?
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things!

What part can't you understand?
I the LORD do all these things
What's so hard to believe?
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/13/13


Elder
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,

If you want to believe you have a choice.
Then show me the man who can resist the power of God!
If someone could resist the power of God, it would not be written

Who are they that resist the power of God?
The same who say it can be resisted.

No one, not one of you will be able to resist!
Every one of you will fall to your knees and confess to God.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/13/13


Pharisee, I don't know where you get the idea that God gave man a will that is free or even a free choice. Nowhere are we told that. He gave commands. They chose to disobey. If God gave man a will that is free to do what he choices to do, why would God judge him wrong if he sinned? He gave them the free will to do what they wanted, how could He judge them right or wrong? God gives us commands, and He expects us to follow them. When we don't He chastens us as believers. The will of man chooses what he likes, it never chooses what it doesn't like. The will of man is never neutral or free. It always has a reason for choosing. And God judges us by those choices we make.
---Mark_V. on 6/13/13


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Christan, GOD created Satan to rebel??

Now you've gone a proved to us all your misunderstanding of that Verse with GOD saying that HE "...created evil...".

That Verse means that GOD makes use of the evil that is perpetuated by Satan and through mankind.

Like the calamities that Job suffered through. Those weren't caused BY GOD. They were brought on by Satan. But GOD ALLOWED them to happen to prove to Satan what cloth Job was made of.

And, GOD uses the evil that goes on as Punishment, and as Chastening for HIS children, and as simply a testing of the nations on Earth, etc.

But, GOD Himself is not the Author of the evil and sin, in and of itself.
---Gordon on 6/13/13


"Predestined, Chosen, Elect, is not predestined to being saved from hell" JamesL

Really?

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Ephesians 1:4,5
---christan on 6/13/13


The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God is NOT God if he is not perfect. So let me ask you something if I painted a room perfectly and then came and took a can of a different color paint and just splashed the walls with it would it suit the purpose for which I started out to paint that room?

Is God a Drunkard? is he not able to do things perfectly? That's what your saying, your saying he's an idiot who can't get it right, we know he created the wicked because he created everything, but if we say he made them to be wicked were blaspheming him. It's a lie, stop twisting scripture.
---Pharisee on 6/13/13


"Isn't that STUPIDITY"

No, God can't be seen so it's not that easy for everyone to be convinced he's there, or have you not heard all the other crud people come up with to explain the universe?

I'll tell you what's stupid, a God that defeats his own purpose, a God that makes his own creation a mess and then has to clean it up, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and it's blasphemous, and it's a lie straight from the pit of hell.
---Pharisee on 6/13/13


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Hebrews 12:6 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
Love, scourgeth and receiveth?
John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God..."
John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

No man is perfect, yet he can overcome his weakness:
Hebrews 12:13 "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed."

Please read 2 Chronicles:36 and 40. John affirms it, 1 John 1:9.
---Nana on 6/13/13


"None answered me about satan's rebellion..." Pharisee

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." The wicked, including satan was created by God to rebel, period!

What other answer or explanation are you seeking for? That satan had the free-will to rebel? Unbelievers chose by their free-will not to believe God? Even after knowing full well of the consequence for rebelling against God?

Doesn't speak well for your doctrine of "free-will" isn't it? Because the one thing that stands out from your doctrine is STUPIDITY at the highest level. That the creature by his free-will chooses to rebel against an Almighty God. Isn't that STUPIDITY?
---christan on 6/13/13


Elder, now you say,
"Mark, you need to reread what I said.
The Bible does say in II Pet 3:9b,(God).not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ..How many times does God have to say something before it is true?"
only once if you answered that passage correctly. But you didn't.
You better read your Bible again because that passage is not talking about every single person in the world, but about all the elect, the us, the any, the beloved that Peter is speaking to (v.3:8). The any must refer to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed, the "us" since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked. At least read the context before answering.
---Mark_V. on 6/13/13


\\ ...predestined and elect for his sovereignty, but that doesn't negate the "whosoever" of this great gospel. \\
---Pharisee on 6/12/13

Predestined, Chosen, Elect, is not predestined to being saved from hell (or however someone might word it)

Three words to take note of also - Glory, Suffer, Inherit

Check out:
Mark 10:35-40
Hebrews 1:14, 2:9-10
1Pet 1:7 & 11, 2:21
Rom 8:17, 28-30
2Tim 2:10


Foreknown as a son (heir), then predestined to become that son because of suffering

Not everyone in heaven will be an heir with Him, because not every believer will pick up their cross and follow Him in suffering
---James_L on 6/13/13


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None answered me about satan's rebellion, the fact is that the truth makes a mockery of absolute predestination aka "hyper calvinism."

The fact is predestination is in play in matters of God's sovereign will, the events of the life of his Messiah include all that happened with Israel leading to that event, (Romans 9), the mistake that's being made is that these truths are being broad brushed to include everything that happens. (but it can only be stated God doing everything in that it's all his work by proxy, there is no other creator)

The language being used is simplified, God will have a remnant predestined and elect for his sovereignty, but that doesn't negate the "whosoever" of this great gospel.
---Pharisee on 6/12/13


"If no free will and God predestines people's choices, then God is to blame for sin." Marc

Hmmm... sounds rather familiar. Let's see what the Scripture says....

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Romans 18-21

There it is... written in reference to and for you. Isn't the Word of God amazing?
---christan on 6/12/13


"Yup Free-Will....."
TheSeg
If you take the time you will see that Paul followed the instruction of the Lord and became obedient. He did so because he wanted to not because he was forced to. He could have followed the Lord or not.... it was his choice. He chose to follow the Lord as we see.
---Elder on 6/12/13


Yup Predestination-
"how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Mat. 23:37b

We can both play that game all day long Seg. I'll persist to reason with you, when you rewind back to the beginning with your ideas about God what you end up with is a blasphemy!

I've given you reason to abandon your stance (your view can't reconcile satan's rebellion) and yet you stubbornly continue speaking evil against God, Insisting he's a keystone cop that shot himself in the foot. You have to marry these two views in your theology or you ignore the truth. "I am the Truth" John 14:6
---Pharisee on 6/12/13


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Yup Free-Will
Act_9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act_9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Yea go ahead Paul choose you have free-will.
I didn't choose you, you chose me.
For God forces no one! You have Free-will!
By the way I am also changing your name to Saul!
Is that OK?

Act_9:6 (And he trembling and astonished said, Lord), what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/12/13


Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort experienced when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions.

Too much of it and your head will explode, causing a very messy cleanup for others, and possible death if a skull fragment strikes another in the wrong place.

It's the reason I stay away from the religious, I'd hate to die from such a cause, or cleanup for that matter.

Sometimes it's better to just say, "I don't know," than try to hold two conflicting and unnecessary beliefs at the same time.
---atheist on 6/12/13


The Four Categories: 1. Those whom God has allowed through free will to believe in predestination. 2. Those whom God has allowed through free will to believe in free will. 3. Those whom God has predestined to believe in free will. 4. Those whom God has predestined to believe in predestination.
---Love.wins on 6/12/13


Pharisee: from your blog post (6/11) 'the Bible expresses both'

Well, it expresses things that imply both, though it is hard to be sure exactly what is meant - that is why it took such a long time (until about 400AD) for the difference to arise, between Augustine and Pelagius
---Peter9556 on 6/12/13


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Marc, if you said that because of something I said.
Just thought you should know I'm not a follower of John Calvin.
Never met the man!
Nor do I follow any other man, other than Jesus Christ.
And yes that is one way to look at it. But only one!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/12/13


Mark, you need to reread what I said.
The Bible does say in II Pet 3:9b,..(God)... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. There is one place that shows what I claimed. How many times does God have to say something before it is true?
Though all were born sinners God has provided a way for all to be Saved. But... that is not what we were discussing.
Read Rom 10:13 then read Rom 10:16.
People do not get Saved because they use their freewill not to. Again, God forces no one!
---Elder on 6/12/13


We see the work of God at hand as He declared in Isaiah 46:11. Here's the account to confirm His declaration and the actions that followed.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28

Where's the "free-will" of man to do what God "determined before to be done" (a perfect definition of predestination)? Wasn't it God's "free-will" to "gather together" those who will "executeth my counsel"?
---christan on 6/12/13


If no free will and God predestines people's choices, then God is to blame for sin.

If God created Adam and Eve without free will and knew that that perfect couple were going to choose evil, then God is to blame for sin.

Calvinism makes God the author of evil instead of its doctor.
---Marc on 6/12/13


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If we are free, let us choose to learn how to do everything in sharing with our Groom Jesus in His "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) If Jesus has made us "free indeed" (John 8:36), we succeed in this (c:

But if in our wills we are "free from God" (consider Romans 6:17-20), and therefore in sin, we will to do what is in sin. Free will, then, can be separation from God, so we can make our own choices apart from Him. It is better to be "free indeed" because of being "one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)
---willie_c on 6/12/13


I believe God has already answer you in Rom_9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom_13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God:
The Powers that be are ordained of God.

I could ask you, why don't believe everything was ordained by God.
If he is clearly saying I ordained everything?

The only reason is because you want to believe you have some power!
You just can't believe you are subject unto the higher powers.
In this you deny what God has said of, The Powers.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/12/13


Pharisee it's good to see you back on here,I always enjoyed your input.
There is Predestination it's that God made a way for humankind to come to Him through Jesus Christ if they repent of their sins and obey God. That doesn't mean man doesn't have free will,he most certainly does,he has to choose who he will serve Satan/sin or God/righteousness. God wants a people who love Him not slaves who have no choice to love or hate Him. God created man for fellowship with Him,a forced fellowship would be worthless to God. Our love of God also gives us a desire to draw nearer and nearer to God.
---Darlene_1 on 6/12/13


"the man that executeth my counsel"

Let's negate this one now.

Pay attention, the man who does my will God says I will make it happen I will bring it to pass.

Notice it doesn't say "the man I made to execute my council" How did the man come to execute it, and how is he doing it if God controls him?

As for the other verse, wrath is appointed to anyone who rejects Christ therefore they were appointed to it.

Please don't take this personally, but What I see are people who don't know how to discern spiritual things being tripped up by simplified language.
Example of free will:

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"
---Pharisee on 6/12/13


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As I've said before, how our free will fits in with God's sovereignty, which includes His seeing things in His eternal NOW (sometimes called foreknowledge) is something we mortals cannot understand in this world.

In the next world, we won't care.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/12/13


Pharisee: Yes, both are true in context to what the Bible says. God made man & angels to be able to 'FREELY CHOOSE" to do good (His will) or evil (sin). He didn't make us to be preprogrammed robots to automatically do His will.

Jesus died for the whole world (past, present & future). Omniscient God knows the hearts of ALL men. He knows who, BY FAITH, will accept salvation & who'll reject it. As such, those He knows WILL CHOOSE to obey have been predetermined for salvation.

As Scripture says, loving God wants no one to perish & for ALL to come to His salvation. But, again, He has made & allows each & everyone of us to "FREELY CHOOSE" & He won't change the process!
---Leon on 6/12/13


Pharisee, GOOD POINTS!! Nonetheless, I prophecy that those who are opposed to the belief that GOD created mankind with free-will are going to counter your points by stating that "only angels were created with free-will, not mankind", or something of that nature.
---Gordon on 6/12/13


//If the will was free, then every time we chose to do something, God could not judge us right or wrong. God judges us by our motives and inclinations.//
---Mark_V. on 6/12/13

Lets get away from salvation into daily life choices.
A free will does not mean we do not have motives or inclinations. We always have motives both good and bad. The Holy Spirit, demons, and our flesh speak to those motives. What free will means is that we actively and knowingly choose to obey or reject that motive. Which is what you said above and the basis of God's judgement. Going back to salvation HS speaks to us about our depravity and thus we choose self-righteousness (usually a work) or Jesus sacrifice.
---Scott1 on 6/12/13


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Elder, you said,
"Since it was "predetermined" by God that all men come to repentance" no passage says it was predetermined by God that all men come to repentance. If they were predetermined, all would come to repentance.
Then say, "then it must be "Freewill" and rebellion that keeps so many away from God and lost in their sins." Its neither one. All are condemned already (John 3:18,19). Everyone is born in sin. Then say,
"God will not force Himself on anyone." God never forces anyone. He makes them able to come to Christ by changing their hearts first.
You do not sound like the old Elder who was on line before.
---Mark_V. on 6/12/13


The are only two possible answers, Pharisee.

Either man was given a choice or God is a sadist.

Anyone who thinks God has pleasure in the death of the wicked clearly does not have a personal relationship with him. They have a different spirit. They have their gods backwards.

If God is the sadist, satan is simply a pawn that God uses as a scapegoat. They may not believe that is what they are truly saying, but its the very core of their belief. This person's own bitterness has warped their sense of holiness. Until they release their bitterness they will never see the Lord for who he is.
---Jasheradan on 6/12/13


//So, if you really have a FREE-WILL and you are FREE to CHOOSE, why don't you CHOOSE to stop sinning? I mean, if you're FREE to CHOOSE, why not just stop sinning?//
The Seg

I wish I could but I am still human as Paul said in Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, (we still are human) ... Christ died for us. Romans 7:14-17. vs 15 - "For I do not do what I what, but I do the very thing I hate." Free does not mean lack of motives see my post to MarkV.
If no free will who makes you sin: God - surely not, Satan - Is Satan more powerful than God?, You - yes.
---Scott1 on 6/12/13


Pharisee, satan tried to take over God's throne. satan and his minions are walking around seeing who they can devour. you don't have to tell me, you knew exactly what you were posting and why. I don't think you even believe your question. God bless
---shira4368 on 6/12/13


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seg, a sinner is not going to stop sinning. he will stop sinning when he is saved. why do missionaries go to the field in other countries and endure more things than we could ever think. some don't even have deodrant or toothpaste. the bible encourages us to be a witness. ever heard the song...bringing in the sheaves? the problem is most churches are dead and the Spirit of God don't go there anymore. if everyone would be a witness to one person a week, think how the whole world would change. can you explain John 3:16>
---shira4368 on 6/12/13


People who say there's no free will I have a challenge for you.

Please explain the Devil's rebellion, the good purpose for which God made him do it and subsequently spoil an otherwise perfect creational order, AND ALSO how God will rightfully punish the straw man enemy he created for no particular reason when he was the reprobate author of this rebellion in the first place. Comon, tell me how bored God was that he created all this horror for his amusement, why not just create what he wanted in the first place?

THANK YOU.
---Pharisee on 6/12/13


So, if you really have a FREE-WILL and you are FREE to CHOOSE, why don't you CHOOSE to stop sinning? I mean, if you're FREE to CHOOSE, why not just stop sinning?

Don't tell me you can't, are you saying you're not FREE to CHOOSE?
Where is your FREE-WILL? FREE-WILL means you can CHOOSE!

I submit to you, if your CHOICE is not to sin and you see you still sin.
Well then, your WILL is not FREE to CHOOSE, because you can't stop sinning.

How can you say I have FREE-WILL to CHOOSE, then not stop sinning?
And yet say I have FREE-WILL?

If you're asking God for help then it's not your will but his!
And may his will be done!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/12/13


Since it was "predetermined" by God that all men come to repentance then it must be "Freewill" and rebellion that keeps so many away from God and lost in their sins.
God will not force Himself on anyone.
---Elder on 6/12/13


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"predestination and free will are both true at the same time?" Seriously?

"...the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it. He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" Isaiah 46:11, Daniel 4:35

"...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed ...being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" Acts 13:48, 1 Peter 2:8

According to the verses from Scriptures above, it's an impossible combination!
---christan on 6/12/13


Christ died for all so they could be saved.
It was "predetermined" for every sin to be paid for that all could be redeemed.
It is the personal excerizing
of "freewill" that causes some to be saved and others to be lost.
Many will not accept what Jesus did in order to be saved. They are lost according to their own freewill and choice.
It is not fact or truth that God determines some to be lost and others to be saved. God will not force Himself on anyone. The sinner must be willing to be saved.
---Elder on 6/12/13


Pharisee, I only belief in one, Predestination, because there is no such thing as a person having a free will. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that people have a free will to choose Christ. And there is a very good reason why it is not found in the Bible.
It's not there because a persons will, is never free.
The will always has a motive, or inclination to choose what it wants, it is never neutral or free from anything. If the will was free, then every time we chose to do something, God could not judge us right or wrong. God judges us by our motives and inclinations.
---Mark_V. on 6/12/13


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