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How To Get Saved

If Christ's death made salvation possible, and every individual has the atonement available provided they claim it, then Christ did not actually save anyone! What does Scripture truly say?

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 ---christan on 6/14/13
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Christian, we all know those verses, and believe me, bolding them and then trying to hiding behind them will never save you.

And posting scripture that all are SWINE , when you get caught in lies or asked questions you can't answer is another one of your ways too. An obnoxious childish one one at that.

Will you ever change Christan? You find more ways to CURSE others don't you? Certainly not a sign of FRUIT...and we know them by their fruit.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/13


Kathr, instead of making stupid comments all the time, you should be putting Scripture down to show why you do not agree on something or other. Of course you have others on your side, the blind leading the blind. Calvin was not the only reformer in history who believed in the Sovereignty of God, there were so many others. If you had studied, and learned, you would know the Truth and it would set you free. But you have never changed. You are still as blind as ever. All you want to do is to be confrontational, you need take your med's before you answer.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/13


Yes Christan, you are a worker of iniquity. So now when you go to judgement, you have no excuse.

Who exactly are you talking to here, Markv? Does he need that warning? You certainly aren't blasting that to your supposed unsaved ? Is that how Peter used these words? Did he say to chant/scream them in public, and some magic thing would happen? Like what?

What really is amazing here with your last post Christan, like all scripture, you don't have the a WISDOM to know how to use scripture, or understand it. Your display here proves you acted opposite of WISE, and the opposite of wise is what? You know...so do we all!
---kathr4453 on 6/24/13


"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
---christan on 6/23/13


Christian, why don't you rightly divide the Word of God? you quote one scripture and you know what? any denomination and build a whole bunch of stuff using one or two verses. why don't you read the "whole", "all", "all mankind" and you will know the predestined are all who accept Christ. you are gonna be in trouble on judgement day.
---shira4368 on 6/23/13




Kathr, you're absolutely right! "belief" for believe and "save" for saved. Same person, different name. That's actually very sad because he even agrees with himself. This man needs our prayer.
---JackB on 6/23/13


Christan, how do you know that you were predestined to be saved?

I'll ask for Francis since I do believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

Do you have an answer to the question?
---JackB on 6/23/13


Christian, why do you use "belief", here in your question to Francis. It' s the same WRONG WORD Markv uses all the time too? That so funny! Did you both learn under the same grammatically challenged Calvinist?

Ok, I'll ask you. How do YOU KNOW you are one of the elect? Oh and I do believe Jesus is God made flesh, so you shouldn't have any issues answering that question MANY here are asking.

Did you become one of God's elect, or were you always one of the elect before you were ever born? Was the mystery about YOU and YOU being the elect gentile, or was the mystery hidden but now revealed about CHRIST in you AFTER you received Him becoming a son, an heir or in other words one of the elect members of the CHURCH?
---kathr4453 on 6/23/13


francis, to begin with, you don't even belief that Jesus Christ is God. Let alone you asking me if I was predestined for salvation. Why would that even bother you one bit since you mock at predestination. Afterall, you and many here seem to believe you have been saved because of your free-will which Jesus in John 6:44 rejects that notion completely and declares it as a lie and deception from the father of lies.

Why? Is there doubts creeping in to your doctrine of free-will that you're suddenly so concern about predestination or are you just mocking what the Holy Bible declared?

But not to worry, there are more foolish ones here, you're just in the middle of that pile.
---christan on 6/22/13


With man nothing is possible without Jesus Christ. You are right man can't save himself but Jesus saved me because I chose to go to church that night and I chose to go to the altar and be saved. Even the bible says (choose you this whom you will serve). Sounds pretty clear to me.
---shira4368 on 6/22/13




--christan on 6/21/13
My question to you remains: How do you know that you were predestined to be saved?
---francis on 6/22/13


So, you have the "free-will" to save yourself from the wrath that's to come? Not on your life!
Jesus explicitly declares, "WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE"!
---christan on 6/21/13

Impossible without Jesus!
But, I have the FREE WILL to reject Him.

Maybe this can help you understand free will. Which only means God is giving us the freedom of our will to accept Him and Obey Him.
God isn't a Dictator.
Saint Catherine of Siena said:

Without God you CAN'T
Without you God WONT.
---Nikki on 6/22/13


Pharisee: "You can't build a solid doctrine based on only half of what God says on a given subject"

Amen!

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little:

I once preached a sermon called "Designer Religion" which had this cherry-picking of scriptures and ignoring of others as it's theme. One can end up with the most ridiculous doctrines that way - as this website demonstrates.



---jerry6593 on 6/22/13


Of coarse it's impossible with men for only God saves through Jesus Christ. Man cannot shed his own blood to cover or forgive his own sin. Man cannot become a new creature apart from Jesus Christ.

But where do you get man cannot put their faith in the only one who can save? God FIRST justifies the UNGODLY, based on their FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE. any UNGODLY person CAN in fact put heir faith in Jesus Christ to save them from their sin.

Have YOU done that Christan? If so, you TOO have salvation through Jesus Christ.

Salvation is OF the Jew..to the Jew FIRST and then to the Gentile. Even Paul preached that.

Weren't Gentiles once said to be dogs? Without/outside/ but NOW brought near by the blood of Christ?
---kathr4453 on 6/22/13


if Christan were born a Jew, and started spouting off all this election business, and salvation based on election, he would according to scripture be classified a self righteous Pharisee, and rightly so. As many Jews fell into the same error. Christan uses ALL those verses Pharisees use to convince himself he is the elect, and salvation is his regardless.

BUT we all know it didn't work for the true elect Israel, so why do these verses seem to apply to him?

He thinks he's Jacob, MY PEOPLE, etc, the very same error the Pharisee Jews fell into pride and arrogance with.

get a grip Christan, and Calvinists. Egypt and Pharaoh represent the gentile world. Your version condemns all Gentiles regardless.
---kathr4453 on 6/22/13


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:24-29

So, you have the "free-will" to save yourself from the wrath that's to come? Not on your life!

Jesus explicitly declares, "WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE"!
---christan on 6/21/13


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Christian, the scriptures say:

Matt1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Most people believe the first two shalls, but most cannot understand the third.
---trey on 6/21/13


Men at all times can only be saved on the basis of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
---michael_e on 6/21/13
Amen
---francis on 6/21/13


Men at all times can only be saved on the basis of the grace of God through Jesus Christ. The dispensational truths are distinct for every age that communicates the will of God that we are required to obey for salvation.

The religions of the world teach the better person and more good works we perform the closer we will be to salvation. The message of this time from God about salvation doesn't concern our ability to perform good works, but it is the good work performed by Christ at Calvary and performed in our place.

If you are in a religion that uses works as a standard of salvation, remember the obedience of faith is, today not of works: Romans 4:5
Christ paid the price, accept it or reject it.
---michael_e on 6/21/13


Matthew 10:5-7

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Again, like the Mormons, the Calvinists believe they alone are the sheep of Israel, whether LOST or found, and Gentile here and elsewhere must mean GOATS, Heathens or whatever, and not Gentiles as scripture teaches. Paul went to the GENTILES...would that be gentile goats?

So what is it this time Christan? Did all the Lost sheep of Israel receive Christ, because they are assured they are the elect? PROVE IT!
---kathr4453 on 6/21/13


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1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Sorry MarkV, but scripture teaches we are begotten sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

So anyone dead must come THROUGH CHRIST to be Born Again thereby becoming sons of God. We are members of HIS BODY.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/13


Kathr, you need to be born of the Spirit to understand.

Oh please just stop.

You and I BOTH know you were never born of the spirit because you don't know God Spiritually. You fail to discern his love for creation and the very essence of his being- LOVE.

You and your psychopath buddies aren't real Christians, you only think your born again because of the false doctrine you believe that men cannot love God without God letting them. I'm living proof that you can love the idea of God without really knowing him, I did before I was saved but believed all religions (including Christianity) had it wrong. Phoney Christian Mark V telling others they need to be saved. What a comedy act, but nobody's laughing.
---Pharisee on 6/21/13


Kathr, you need to be born of the Spirit to understand.
You say,
"You must become a "BEGOTTEN SON" through Jesus Christ to be considered BORN AGAIN."
Christ is the only "Begotten Son of God." No one else is. The thought is clearly that Christ is the "only begotten" Son of God in the sense that no other is the promise SEED. This illustrated in the use of the same word in regard to Isaac. (Heb. 11:17), who was literally the only begotten of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the promised seed. Christ was also the only begotten in reference to His humanity. Then say,
"Calvinists leave out Jesus Christ." No they don't (Eph. 2:4-10).
---Mark_V. on 6/21/13


Your right we cannot deny that he said "if I be lifted up I will draw all me to myself" twice in the book of John.

You can't build a solid doctrine based on only half of what God says on a given subject, but that's what you predestination proponents do.

Who cares about the whole truth right? let's just use the part we like and not reconcile it to the rest of scripture, we can twist the meaning of every verse that doesn't match what we want to believe, God won't mind. Or will he? Today is the day to repent and stop teaching half the truth. if you've truly studied everything the Bible says there's no way to continue in what you believe.
---Pharisee on 6/20/13


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It's truly amazing where people get the idea that "ALL Israel are considered God's sheep"? Maybe it will help their lame cause if they can provide a verse that says so.

Such is the hypocrisy of these who reject the very idea that God has already elected as taught in the Bible, they then contradict themselves by saying, "Yet not all the LOST sheep of Israel received Christ did they?", only to shoot themselves on their foot that God's electionstands as taught by Paul in romans 9.

That is, those who did not receive Christ is because they were not elected to receive Him. "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
---christan on 6/21/13


MarkV: "No one lost can call upon the name of the Lord."

Are you calling Jesus a liar?

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.



---jerry6593 on 6/21/13


Brother MarkV, the Arminians use "whosoever" and imply that it means free-will which no where in the scripture teaches of such an act that salvation can be obtained.

To them, they pluck a verse and turn it into a doctrine without even referring to other Scriptures as to whether their understanding is even right. And they have no answer and are left in a state of confusion when Jesus spoke what He did in John 6:44.

Which then simply means that the "whosoever" points to only those whom the Father draws to His Son. Because of their "faith in their free-will" they cannot but deny what Christ declared.
---christan on 6/20/13


All Israel was considered God's Sheep, even the LOST sheep. Yet not all the LOST sheep of Israel received Christ did they?

So again Christan's analogy is all in his twisted imagination and not according to scripture.
---kathr4453 on 6/20/13


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"And yet his own father considered him "dead" until he returned home." JackB

And there you have it, a picture of someone who does not recognise that he's "dead in sins and trespasses". That's what Paul declared to the Ephesians before they became Christians by the mercy and grace of God.

Take a step back and ask, how did they become a Christian? By their own "free-will"? Then you had better read Ephesians in great length, and that's because you're not going to find anything that's associated with your "free-will" doctrine whatsoever.

According to Scriptures, if God has chosen you to be His sheep, you're never going to change into a goat and vice-versa.
---christan on 6/19/13


Jack B, you say,
"God's version: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved" (future tense)"
No one lost can call upon the name of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus Christ.
"There is none righteous, no, not one.
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks after God"
(Rom. 3:10,11). Salvation is from the wrath to come. We receive the promise.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord has already been saved" When a sinner is born of the Spirit he receives the promise. Faith comes from God as a gift through His Word when a person is brought back to spiritual life (Eph. 2:4-10).

Can you not see your err?
---Mark_V. on 6/20/13


Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

OK let's get this right. IN ADAM all die. Lets get this right, ALL who descended from ADAM are considered sons, whether sin entered the picture or not. The first son, the one who never left represents the self righteous Pharisee Jew, although a son, a SINNER who never saw himself as one.

The second son represent all who died in Adam, but only those who REPENT and return to the Father of all human life.

You must become a "BEGOTTEN SON" through Jesus Christ to be considered BORN AGAIN.

and AGAIN Calvinists leave out Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/13


It's a picture of those whom God has already chosen before the foundations of the world who will return to their Father when the time is predestined for them to return.


---christan on 6/19/13

now that's laughable, and has nothing to do with anyone already being a son before the foundation of the world.
---kathr4453 on 6/19/13


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christen , the problem with your interpretation of that parable is you fail to consider the man had two sons. one never left, therefore was not even considered once dead to his father, whereas the other was considered dead to his father.

So you claim there are sons who have always been son's, and other son's who were considered dead, and what, rebirthed again to sonship?

so, which one are you? a son who never sinned, not needing reconciliation at all?

FALSE FALSE teaching here. Beware of the false teachers. Once a liar always a liar RIGHT CHRISTAN!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/13


It's a picture of those whom God has already chosen before the foundations of the world who will return to their Father when the time is predestined for them to return.

--christan on 6/19/13

Let me get this right, you are saying that you can be with God in his hand but he allows you to leave, correct?

It is finally sinking in to you great. Question: Why would the son say " And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." (LK 15:21)if he was already chosen and why would the father say "For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found."(LK 15:24)?
---Ruben on 6/19/13


//We do not believe in order to be saved, we believe because we are saved// -- MarkV

God's version: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved" (future tense)

Your's: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord has already been saved"

Can you not see your err?

//the "prodigal son" was already the son of the father...not someone outside of the son-ship at all...he was related by birth //--Christan

And yet his own father considered him "dead" until he returned home. Wouldnt he have been considered "alive" even though he was away from home if what you believe is true? You shot yourself in the foot on that one.
---JackB on 6/19/13


MarkV, a corrupt heart may not please god or be able to do good, however no scripture states an corrupt heart cannot believe and have faith. As a matter of fact it is the corrupt heart that puts their faith in the one who is incorruptible. God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY as scripture teaches.

JackB is absolutely correct.

No, the Holy Spirit does not quicken you together with Christ in death and resurrection life FIRST SO THAT you can believe. That is false doctrine. You are quickened as a result of believing and placing your faith In Jesus Christ.
Acts says the Holy Spirit is given to those WHO OBEY FIRST! Obey what? OBEY THE GOSPEL!
---kathr4453 on 6/19/13


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JackB, your reference to the prodigal son to support your "free-will" is nothing short of laughable (though salvation is no laughing matter by itself). You forgot the most important fact of the parable, the "prodigal son" was already the son of the father. He was not someone outside of the son-ship at all. Meaning he was already "related" to the father by birth.

It's a picture of those whom God has already chosen before the foundations of the world who will return to their Father when the time is predestined for them to return.

A sheep will always be a sheep and a goat a goat. Neither can change themselves to one or the other. So too, those chosen by God in His Son.
---christan on 6/19/13


//
How do you know that you were predestined to be saved and not the next guy?

---francis on 6/18/13
//

Good question. Have you ever noticed that predestination types ALWAYS consider themselves in the "saved" pile rather than in the "lost" pile. What a coincidence!


---jerry6593 on 6/19/13


Jack B, you say,
"You are "quickened" together with Christ when his Spirit comes to live within you. That happens after you have believed (Eph 1:13) not before."
You are wrong. How can you believe before your heart is quickened by God's Spirit? A corrupt heart does not believe. The passage is not saying what you are saying, The passage is saying you are sealed by the Spirit after you believe. But you are quicken by the Spirit when you are born of the Spirit. We do not believe in order to be saved, we believe because we are saved. Unbelievers are unbelievers they do not believe, only those born of God believe. There is born of the Spirit "regeneration" indwelled by the Spirit, and sealed by the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 6/19/13


//The atonement was not made for you OR the next guy, the atonement was made for you AND the next guy.//

AMEN
---michael_e on 6/19/13


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The atonement was not made for you OR the next guy, the atonement was made for you AND the next guy.
---A_servant on 6/18/13


---christan on 6/14/13

how do you know that the atonement was made for you and not the next guy?

How do you know that you were predestined to be saved and not the next guy?
---francis on 6/18/13


christan

God is bigger than our predestination or our free will. We choose to follow God and God gives us His nature by the Holy Spirit. It is a BOTH, AND not an EITHER, OR.
---Scott1 on 6/18/13


Christan, as I stated in my earlier post, if God is the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10) and He desires that ALL men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved (1 Tim 2:3,4), isnt it common sense that ALL men are "ordained" to eternal life? Yet not all will be saved.

So either:

God doesnt love the whole world and only died for some (making half of scripture a lie)

or

Man rejects his ordination (which is supported by MANY MANY scriptures)

So is God a lair or not? What did He say of himself?
"I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked , but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn from your evil ways. Why will you die!??"
---Jasheradan on 6/18/13


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"Care then to explain:"-- Christan

Yes. Your understanding of dead is wrong.

Was the prodigal son dead? His father certainly said so! Yet while "dead" he made the decision to return home to his father. And his father seeing him already coming ran to meet him. There is a reason why Christ told these parables yet so many ignore them because they tell of a truth that they aren't ready to accept. The blind trying to lead the blind in things they do not understand.

You are "quickened" together with Christ when his Spirit comes to live within you. That happens after you have believed (Eph 1:13) - not before.
---JackB on 6/18/13


markv, we live in a sinful sinful world. we know our way is straight and narrow and the sinners is wide and many go there. you can't expect people who are sinners to do anything other than be sinful.
---shira4368 on 6/18/13


Christan, what I find amazing is the amount of people who fight for their rights over God. Sinners at that, wanting to have the last say as to where they want to go. The lost don't believe in God, so they don't care where they are going. But those who claim to know the God of the Bible are the complainers.
"Jehovah hath made everything for its own end, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4) Jesus said,
'Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine" (Matt. 7:6) He who affirms, like many here, that Christ designed to give His saving Truth to everyone, flatly contradict Christ Himself.
---Mark_V. on 6/18/13


Jasheradan, if you cannot understand and believe in the magnitude of what salvation is as recorded in Acts 13:48, what's the point of you quoting verses that doesn't even mean free-will exist whatsoever.

Acts 13:48 explicitly declares: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed", that is to simply say, anyone who believes in Christ is because they were chosen by God and it has nothing to do with the sinner choosing on their own, understand?

And that confirms Christ's declaration, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In short, salvation is only by God's sovereign election in Christ.
---christan on 6/17/13


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"You are completely backwards here, sir. The cart is before the horse." JackB

Care then to explain: "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,) For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

At least I still have a cart and the horse, whereas you only imagine you have a cart and a horse, when in actual fact, you have nothing but an perverted imagination of salvation.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
---christan on 6/17/13


Christan, Acts 16:31
Ive noticed that the scripture you and MarkV are stuck on are the ones that are refuted by MANY other scriptures. Its not a contradiction by the Holy Spirit, just a flaw in your understanding. How can you call yourself a man of truth and throw out scriptures that directly refute what you believe?

Either God suffers from a multiple personality disorder and his left hand doesn't know what his right hand is doing or your doctrine is perverse.

Would the same God who predestines people to damnation ask then why they refuse to believe and become angry with them for being exactly what He made them to be? That is sadistic to say the least. That is not love and I hope you know that.
---Jasheradan on 6/17/13


The sinner believe is because he's saved and not to be saved.
---christan on 6/16/13

That is salvation before faith in Christ.

Scripture is very clear that we have access to Gods grace BY faith (Romans 5:2). Not access to faith by Gods grace (Christan's imagination). You are completely backwards here, sir. The cart is before the horse.
---JackB on 6/17/13


jerry6593, you do well to quote Joshua 24:15 in the attempt to justify your doctrine of free-will. BUT does it really teach anyone that the man has a choice as you so believe in and advocate of such?

Why then do you not continue on and show what Joshua replied to the people of Israel with regards to your idea of "CHOOSE" in verse 19? This is what's written:

"And Joshua said unto the people, YE CANNOT SERVE THE LORD: for he is an holy God, he is a jealous God, he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

Verse 19 contradicts your understanding of verse 15 in that there's a choice, which to begin with, is an impossible task for a sinner.
---christan on 6/17/13


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Christ's holy intercession as the sacrifice for us saves us. We are saved not only because of Christ, but through Him.
---A_servant on 6/17/13


James L: "Jerry,
what on earth did I write that even hinted at Predestination, and especially contrasted against "Lost" ??

"Thus, the "choice" is rendered meaningless, and only serves to confuse"

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



---jerry6593 on 6/17/13


"Look upon/believe THEN you shall live." Jasheradan

Is that how Scripture tells us? "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." Acts 13:48

That is to say, those mentioned by Scriptures "who believe" in 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Tim 2:3,4, John 3:14,15, Numbers 21:9 was purely because they were "ordained to eternal life" or as Paul declared, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

The sinner believe is because he's saved and not to be saved.
---christan on 6/16/13


"Show us a scripture that says Paul wasn't convinced at his conversion. Where is it?" JamesL

That's simple, it's because there's none...\\
---christen


'nuf said. I guess since you couldn't put up, well...you know the rest
---James_L on 6/16/13


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(1 Tim 4:10)
we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

(1 Tim 2:3,4)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have (desires) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

(John 3:14,15)
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

(Numbers 21:9)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, WHEN he looketh upon it, shall live.

Look upon/believe THEN you shall live.
---Jasheradan on 6/16/13


"Show us a scripture that says Paul wasn't convinced at his conversion. Where is it?" JamesL

That's simple, it's because there's none in the Scripture that supports your rubbish that "Paul was convinced at his conversion"!

If he was "convinced by the truth" according to your rubbish, was there even a need for Christ to strike him down on his way to Damascus to persecute more Christians?

"Convincing" is not God's way to salvation anyways, but to "free-willers" like you, it is. The Spirit of God's work is to "convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"! But is everyone in the world convicted?
---christan on 6/16/13


Jerry,
what on earth did I write that even hinted at Predestination, and especially contrasted against "Lost" ??

You've got the whole notion of predestination so far out of context that you probably never will understand it properly

Protestants on both sides of that argument so heinously misunderstand Election and Predestination

that you might as well be arguing whether a bicycle has three wheels or four
---James_L on 6/16/13


christian I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish by trying to pick apart everything I say... The dialogue of Paul's conversion was what convinced and overwhelmed him, Jesus said "saul why do you persecute me" and he replied "who are you Lord" then the voice from Heaven identified himself as Jesus.

In his life of religious zeal he all at once was confronted with the truth, you think that didn't shatter his pride to a million pieces right there? Overwhelmed, FOR SURE and we know he was found in agreement by the history of what he did in Christ. There's a such thing as arguing for argument's sake. It's un-comely, no law against love though, let's agree to let that be our motivation for posting on here. Peace to you.
---Pharisee on 6/16/13


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\\ Did the conversion of Paul happened because he was "overwhelmed with the truth and became convinced"?...
And Scripture calls that a blatant and outright lie. \\
---christan

WHERE ?!?

Show us a scripture that says Paul wasn't convinced at his conversion. Where is it?

PUT UP OR SHUT UP ! !

I want to see the scripture.
And I'm sure everybody else does too.

BOOK - CHAPTER - VERSE
which says that Paul was NOT convinced of truth at his conversion
---James_L on 6/16/13


James L: I didn't realize that you were also a predestinationalist. I'll bet you think that you are in the "chosen elect" pile rather than the lost pile, don't you?



---jerry6593 on 6/16/13


"But that's not the same as choosing to believe. God overwhelms us with truth, we become convinnced of it because of His work in our heart and mind." JamesL

And Scripture calls that a blatant and outright lie. Did the conversion of Paul happened because he was "overwhelmed with the truth and became convinced"? Well, according to his conversion in Acts 9, far be from it! Not even closed. He was too busy persecuting the Christians until he was struck down by Christ!

Not only that, Acts even recorded "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED." What contradiction to your nonsense.
---christan on 6/15/13


Jesus was telling the disciples to actively believe, to choose +do the opposite of letting their "hearts be troubled." John 14:1 Choice comes from God, in a way even our choosing belongs to GOD, but that doesn't negate the fact that man makes choices, and God a perfectly relational being responds at his choosing. We are made in HIS spiritual image which includes choice: Isaiah 66:4 "they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."
Every time we're tempted there is a choice to make, in Christ we're free to make God's choices and follow him. The righteousness of God by faith is "unto all" and salvation "Upon them that believe." Romans 3:22
---Pharisee on 6/15/13


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\\ God who speaks to our hearts through his word. he tells us the truth, it overwhelms us and we agree. \\
---Pharisee

Scripture agrees with that. But that's not the same as choosing to believe. God overwhelms us with truth, we become convinnced of it because of His work in our heart and mind. Then it's over.

One would have to believe it before he could ever make a choice to believe it.

Thus, the "choice" is rendered meaningless, and only serves to confuse, or to take the credit that belongs to God alone


\\ Jesus said you believe in God, believe also in me. Why did he need to tell them this? \\
---Pharisee

Because a new covenant (in Him) was on the horizon.
---James_L on 6/15/13


The idea that we "choose" salvation gives the credit to man...

No room for boasting, we didn't accomplish anything but coming to an agreement with God who speaks to our hearts through his word. he tells us the truth, it overwhelms us and we agree. Remember the word says that two cannot travel together unless they agree.

"If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed"

Choosing God is the only real free choice available to man, every other is one of slavery to sin. Romans 4:3 says "Abraham believed God..." It's a gift by faith. He only believes in response to the revelation received as with any man. Jesus said you believe in God, believe also in me. Why did he need to tell them this?
---Pharisee on 6/15/13


\\ Only a non-Christian would say "IF" Christ's sacrifice provided salvation. \\
---Jerry6593

It may seem like splitting hairs, but I disagree.

Jesus's sacrifice didn't "make salvation possible", His sacrifice IS salvation - to those who believe.

The difference is that the "possibility" doctrine puts the onus on the man to turn, or embrace, or follow, or endure

But scripture says that it is purely the work of God to save - not of works, nor the will of man, nor the will of the flesh.


\\ Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. \\
---jerry6593

Your understanding of that verse has it in direct conflict with other scriptures
---James_L on 6/15/13


\\ An issue is if God controls who comes to trust in Jesus, or does the person make the choice all on one's own? \\
---willie_c on 6/14/13

That's a fatal flaw in "christian" thinking.

It's not humanly posssible to choose to trust someone.

John 1:13 says that we are born - Not of human decision, nor a man's will. It's only by God

The flesh profits nothing. The Spirit gives life.

The idea that we "choose" salvation is giving all the credit to man, leaving plenty of room for boasting.
---James_L on 6/15/13


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How To Get Saved

If Christ's death made salvation possible, and every individual has the atonement available provided they claim it, then Christ did not actually save anyone! What does Scripture truly say?
---christan on 6/14/13

You may have to rewrite this question, and ask the moderate to omit this blog

The very premise is erroneous
---francis on 6/15/13


Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v 38 Fulfills Mat. 28 v 19, Matt. 24 v 13 he & she.
---Lawrence on 6/15/13


19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Chapter 11 is about the Salvation/ingrafting of the gentiles VS 32 - Final comment on Salvation of God before praising him. Chap 12- Living for Christ. Without free will who needs instructions?
---Romans_10:19-21 on 6/14/13


Paul talks about we "who first trusted in Christ," in Ephesians 2:12. So, I can see this means that someone is saved once one has trusted in Jesus.

An issue is if God controls who comes to trust in Jesus, or does the person make the choice all on one's own?

Either way, Jesus calls to "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

So . . . if a person "chooses Jesus" but does not obey how Jesus gives us "rest for your souls", we might ask if the person really got saved.
---willie_c on 6/14/13


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Truly believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Christ death made salvation not only possible but a sure thing for those that are born again of the Holy Spirit. "But as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who BELIEVE in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12,13 Christ died for true believers.
---Tony on 6/14/13


The logic of the blog question is flawed. Only a non-Christian would say "IF" Christ's sacrifice provided salvation.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



---jerry6593 on 6/15/13


John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 3:14-15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

You CANNOT exclude verses like these when building a topic on a given subject. It's stated twice in one book of the Bible and you still won't include it in your doctrine!
---Pharisee on 6/14/13


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