ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Predestination Or Free Will

How does the predestination or free-will which ever doctrine you follow effect your daily life? Do not argue about them but how you live them.

Join Our Free Dating and Take The Christian Living Quiz
 ---Scott1 on 6/21/13
     Helpful Blog Vote (4)

Post a New Blog



Mark V: "Were it possible for something to occur apart from either the direct agency or permission of God, that something would be independent of Him, and He would cease to be Supreme."

So, on Mark's demonically-inspired Good news, God WANTED sin to enter the world, and in fact, WILLS man to sin, including Adam.

No, Mark, you've got the wrong god...and his name is Satan.
---Marc on 6/28/13


Christian salvation is the gift from God. For God so loved the world "HE gave"... read Romans 5...,I believe you will find the GIFT OF GRACE mentioned. GRACE is Christ crucified and risen. We in THIS DISPENSATION are saved by Jesus death and resurrection , AKA GRACE. Again it's very clear in Romans 5 as well as Ephesians 2.

It's not a GIFT if it's forced on you. I can accept or reject an offered Gift.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/13


Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost..

The GIFT of the Holy Spirit IS your salvation, for any man without the in dwelling Holy Spirit is not saved.

This is the dispensation of the Spirit. That Spirit that unites you with Christ in death and resurrection life now a member of not only Christ's Body, being baptized into His Body, but one now in the NEW CREATION, BORN AGAIN! BORN OF THE SPIRIT, which is Christ Jesus, the HEAD of the NEW CREATION. Not only is Christ" in you" but you are IN HIM.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/13


Well believing that GOD loves everyone maybe a little crazy. But since the Bible says it is so I have to agree with the Bible. Christian you present a verse that says GOD hates one person. Then use that to disregard all the verse where GOD says he loves everyone.

I accept that GOD loves everyone. But those who decide to reject him he ends up hating. Because they choose to love sin.

GOD does not force us to sin.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/28/13


Imagine, God giving the sinner the gift of eternal life and is rejected. Crazy, I would say! That's freewill for you.
---christan on 6/28/13

Maybe crazy, but it is true

you do not have to imagine it just read about it in THE BIBLE


Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Ge
---francis on 6/28/13




"That involves CHOICE. The choice to either receive or reject." Gordon

"Receive" in context to the Holy Bible pertains to a "gift from God", it has nothing to do with the sinner "accepting or rejecting".

When Saul was converted, do you see anywhere in the account (Acts 9) telling us that Paul "accepted" Jesus Christ? On the contrary, he was on his way to persecute Christians! Was he even looking for Christ? He may have been BUT it was to persecute Christians!

What you are saying makes no sense whatsover and isn't logical. Imagine, God giving the sinner the gift of eternal life and is rejected. Crazy, I would say! That's freewill for you.
---christan on 6/28/13


Kathr, You've brought up a champion Verse, REVELATION 3:20, to help Textually prove the truth of man's responsibility before GOD to make a choice concerning Salvation.

The word "IF", in this Verse, shows conditionality.

IF someone will get up off their couch and answer the Lord's Knock at the door, THEN will the Lord come in and sup with that person.

Until the person decides to answer the door, the Lord will continue to STAY OUTSIDE and knock.

And, lol, just as you eloquently pointed out, the Lord does not bust down the door and force His Will on the person.

The Lord is a Gentleman, even though He's "THE LORD". He does not MAKE a person this or that, without the person wanting it first.
---Gordon on 6/28/13


Those who claim to be presestined to be saved, tell me how do ou know that you are predestined to be saved, and not one of those who are predestined in the latter times to depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,
---francis on 6/28/13


Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Does anyone BUT MARKV see the order of things in this verse?

It's more than hearing His Voice....WE must open the door. No where does this verse say God kicks down the door and comes "into" you. CHRIST IN YOU.....

God does not nor can He FORCE Himself "INTO" you. This is very clear.

So MarkV, stop with all your philosophical nonsense only your human unregenerate mind can grasp. Like making God a puppet-master. MY GOD is no puppet-master.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/13


Kathr, you, like others fight against God in opposing Him having His right over sinful man. By creating a god in your mind that is desperate for you. Suggesting God is knocking at the door of the sinful man hearts. Sort of like the Jehovah Witnesses knocking at the door of your house, hoping you will let them in. That nonsense is not in the Bible.
Our God is Supreme. God's knowledge of the future is as complete as is His knowledge of the past and the present, and that, because the future depends entirely upon Himself. Were it in anywise possible for something to occur apart from either the direct agency or permission of God, then that something would be independent of Him, and He would at once cease to be Supreme. You have the wrong god.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13




Christan, "Choice of man? Where?" you ask, concerning the Verse of JOHN 1:12a "...as many as RECEIVED Him..."

In that above Verse, it is GOD having OFFERED His Son to someone and that someone "...RECEIVED Him..."

That involves CHOICE.

The choice to either receive or reject.
---Gordon on 6/28/13


"As many as receive Him " is FREE CHOICE.

If you came to my door Christan, I DON'T have to receive you in...I can turn you away.

Behold I stand at the door and knock, if "anyone" hear my voice and open, I WILL COME INTO HIM and sup with him.

WE have to be the one who OPENS the door to RECEIVE HIM IN. This is a fact, the TRUTH. And many here and through out all the world can personally testify to that fact.

So thank you for another free will verse.

AND again,

John 6 was BEFORE the cross, when God gave Jesus his disciples for His earthly ministry.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/13


Marc, do you not have some Truth to contribute? All you do is complain and whin how you do not like God making choices for you. There is enough Truth in the Bible to discuss godly discussions. All you guys do is complain how you don't like God choosing anyone. He cannot infringe in your rights as sinful men. I suppose sinful man has power over God while he lost. What you need to explain is how someone dead in sins, doing the desires of their father the devil, a child of wrath can suddenly believe by faith in the Lord Jesus while still an unbeliever. You, like the world believe you are free to choose Christ if you want. Jesus speaks against you, He says, with man this is impossible, and you say He lied.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13


"Do what you ask??/ Jesus said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - This is a choice he is given" Ruben

Choice? Where does it say so the man has a choice to be "born of the Spirit" in John 3:1-8? Oh, I beg you please to show us the verse that says so and I'll shut up. While you try, I'll show you two verses that says otherwise,

"But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: WHICH WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12,13

Choice of man? Where?
---christan on 6/27/13


James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Sound like FREE WILL to me
---francis on 6/27/13


Mark V quotes 2 verses from Romans, tries to deceive people that his 2 verses are the Gospel (according to Mark V) and finally claims Paul's argument "is very simple". Mark has reduced, arguably, the most complex of philosophical treatises to a 2-liner and implies "I, only I, understand and you guys don't."

Mark has no theological training, reduces complex arguments to 2 lines and then boastfully believes God actively wills people to eternal damnation.

Be very careful of Mark. His is the doctrine of demons.
---Marc on 6/27/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Online Marketing


Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin "willfully" ((WILLFULLY meaning of one's free will)) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Markv, how do you interpret this verse?
---kathr4453 on 6/27/13


God frees him from that slavery, buys him with the blood of Christ, and makes him a slave of righteousness. He is never free.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


MarkV, please provide scripture where we are slaves to righteousness.

also, you say you are not free now to sin correct. So you are teaching sinless perfection? Or are you saying sin and righteousness are no different now that you are the elect? Or are you saying God also makes you after salvation a slave to sinning?

How do you explain that YOU sin after you are saved if you are a slave to righteousness? Did God make you sin?
---kathr4453 on 6/27/13


Elder, you say,
"Mark...You can't hold to false beliefs of God forcing Himself on you if you answer."
When have I ever said God forces anyone? Never. What question do you have? A person dead in sin cannot come to Christ. Not possible. He is a slave and can not escape his condition. God frees him from that slavery, buys him with the blood of Christ, and makes him a slave of righteousness. He is never free. people in the world think they are free, but they are slaves of sin, doing the desires of their father the devil. In that condition, they cannot escape on their own. They need to be drawn to God by God. We as believers belong to God, we are children of God, when before we were children of wrath, we are never free.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


Peter, first I hope that my responses are kindly done. My purpose is to teach only. Gen. 3:15 is the first gospel given. The children of satan and the children of God. There is no children who belong to no one. It's one or the other. The world thinks they are free to choose what they want, but in reality they are slaves to sin, dead in trespasses and sins. Unable of themselves to change their nature, children of wrath, "There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11). When God draws an individual to Himself, He makes that person who was a child of wrath, a child of God, by making him alive together with Christ. Only God can do that. He then becomes a slave of righteousness. He is still not free, he might think he is but his not.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


Read These Insightful Articles About VoIP Service


"MarkV, what does the word DISOBEDIENCE mean?"
---LindaH on 6/26/13

We could also ask what does BETRAYAL mean also.
---Nana on 6/27/13


Mark V: Unless the way you explain it is in a way I am not able to understand it.....

I do not see your argument about obedience as being part of the dispute between predestination and free will.

In fact, what I read here as accusations of free will is often an accusation of other views, and sometimes an accusation of doctrines that have been accepted.

I am not saying that YOU do that, I just mean that while free will as a doctrine has been condemned, many of us may not be sure as to what that doctrine actually means
---Peter on 6/26/13


Mark you refuse to answer any of my questions yet ask yours to misdirect.
You can't hold to false beliefs of God forcing Himself on you if you answer.
Josh 24:15 Choose this day who you will serve
Isa 7:15 refuse the evil, choose the good
Prov 1:29 they did not choose the fear of the Lord.
Rom 10:9 call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.
(Choose your own way and be lost.)
My Lord is polite and meek. He is not a bully and never forced anyone to be His friend.
He calls, we answer or we don't.
Again, what makes you think you are one chosen/forced (predestined) by God to go to heaven? What makes you think you are not predestined to Hell. I believe, according to your stated belief, that you are.
---Elder on 6/26/13


Nikki, it is you guys who do not make any sense. Do you not understand that the lost are under a covenant of works of obedience? From the time of Adam the covenant exist. Obey and have eternal life, disobey and you get death. A covenant of obedience. And since no one can keep the whole law by obedience, there was no salvation through that covenant. So God who is rich in mercy and because of His great love with which He loved us (believers), made a much better covenant, with Christ, to be an atonement for our (believers) sins. Those who do not receive the grace of God remain under the covenant of works, lost. Those whom God makes alive together with Christ are the saved. Christ paid the debt they owed to God.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


Send a Free Hi Friend Ecard


"And you insist he can choose Christ while lost with no faith. How is that possible?"
Mark_V.
Mark let me first say I thank you for the respectful way you have responded to me. Let me know if you think I haven't responded respectfully for I intended to.
Now...
Faith comes through hearing the Word of God, Rom 10:17.
That is why we must share the Word with others.
But notice that not all obeyed (chose not to obey/accept) what God had offered, Rom 10:16. They must choose to believe what was reported to them.
In the passage "obeyed" means heed, conform, submit and/or listen to God.
We can't get Saved apart from what the Lord did. But He will not force us to if we don't want to live the Christian life.
---Elder on 6/26/13


Mark, Rom 3 is speaking about what advantage the Jew has over anyone else. Verse 11 says none they are all the same.
Rom 10 is speaking about
Israel being Saved, v1.
1. Verse 9-10 tells what must be done to get/be Saved.
2. Verse 11-13 takes in all people and races.
3. Verse 16 explains not all obey the Gospel way. That has to do with freewill of mankind.
4. No where do we see in any of these passages that God forces/predestins anyone to be Saved. It is all about freewill choice and freewill obedience.
---Elder on 6/26/13


Jesus also declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

Freewillers speak of choice. Choice to do what? Born dead in sins and trespasses, they think they can make themselves alive before God by their own freewill. Ya right.
---christan on 6/25/13

Christan,

Do what you ask??/ Jesus said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - This is a choice he is given,
---Ruben on 6/26/13


MarkV, what does the word DISOBEDIENCE mean?
---LindaH on 6/26/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Settlements


Elder, I heard you were someone who really knows the Word of God, and I find that you are confused about many things you believe. You believe that Romans 10:13) is talking to unbelievers. Did you not read (Rom. 3:11)? "There is none who understands, There is none who seek after God" The passage in (Rom. 10:13) is not talking to unbelievers to call on the name of the Lord. They don't call, because they do not seek after God. Only believers seek after God.
Then give (Romans 6:17) "they were slaves of sin" but now they obeyd from the heart". They were delivered, having been set free from sin, now they obey because they are slaves of righteousness (v. 6:17,18). It is very simple Elder.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


MarkV, you makes the crazies statements to back up your beliefs.
As Ruben said, if no freewill why give us commandments to follow?

God didn't give Moses 10 commandants so he can put something in the Ark of the Covenant.
God didn't let His Only Son die a horrible death on the cross for us to have decoration on our living room wall.
Why save us if we couldn't choose to sin. Choose to reject Jesus?

You are not making sense. You are too smart to believe your own statements so why are you stating them?
Unless you think we are so stupid to believe the words are you trying to convince us to believe?
Do you really think we are that stupid???
---Nikki on 6/26/13


Elder, maybe I should ask you this question. Why is it so important for you to believe you chose Christ out of your own free will? Does it make you feel better? Smarter then others who do not do such a thing? Maybe you were kinder then others when you were lost? Is that it? Since you believe everyone has a free will, and you chose Christ, the others must be so stupid for not doing what you say you can do yourself. Another question,
Do you pray to God and ask Him to change the hearts of those in your family who are lost? Why pray to God in the first place, He cannot do anything. It's man's ability to choose you say. And you insist he can choose Christ while lost with no faith. How is that possible?
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


How many of you Predestination people on here are "chosen to go to Hell?
You misguided, biblically uninformed people seem to think all of you are chosen to be Saved.
How could that be if what you say is true?
One of you "brights" please explain Rom 10:13 to me.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be Saved.
Read Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
V-19 speaks of yielding to holiness. That's choice.
If you didn't choose then you are not Saved.
---Elder on 6/25/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Internet Services


While I believe in predestination, I also know that the fact that we have the apostles sent out to preach indicates that to be saved, we not only must hear, but

Since we are warned of what we must not do after being saved, we must guided after being saved.

So predestination does not mean that God will sort everything out

Since God is outside of time, I would be more inclined to say that God has arranged things so that certain people's lives will be such that they will believe - maybe that is OK?
---Peter9556 on 6/25/13


markv, I also said I was under conviction. I said I had the choice to accept or walk away.
---shira4368 on 6/25/13


Brother MarkV, freewillers unbelieve of what Christ declared with regards to salvation (i.e. to be saved) of the sinner is their problem:

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:25,26

Jesus also declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

Freewillers speak of choice. Choice to do what? Born dead in sins and trespasses, they think they can make themselves alive before God by their own freewill. Ya right.
---christan on 6/25/13


James 2:18b I will show you my faith by my works.

---Scott1 on 6/25/13


exactly..I die daily! That's again, our responsibility.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Online Stores


MarkV


What does the word DISOBEDIENCE mean?
---LindaH on 6/24/13
---LindaH on 6/25/13


Nikki, your looking at salvation in the flesh and not in the spirit. The kingdom of God is not of this world. Don't compare what happens here to what God does. You say,
"When you and your wife got married, one of you all chose the other one first. But, the other one had to chose you as well. Or there isn't a marriage." The problem with your comparision is that in the case of a marriage, both can see, hear and understand.
In the subject of salvation, only God can see, hear and understand. The one He is saving does not see, hear or understand, until God changes his heart, gives him faith, and then the person comes to Christ very humbled and in love. We are told in God's Word that we love Christ because He first loved us.
---Mark_V. on 6/25/13


---kathr4453 on 6/24/13
Thanks for the comment. Predestination and free will gets argued back in forth with high philosophical verses and statements. I wanted to bring those doctrines into a practical application. James 2:18b I will show you my faith by my works.
---Scott1 on 6/25/13


Who could be the defined elect more then Israel? Yet the Lord had the desire to gather them under his wing and they "would not" -his words!
---Pharisee on 6/24/13

You are still blind. You don't have to remain blind.
Israel is composed of more than Judah. Jerusalem is the word in the verse.
Jerusalem was not all Israel!
Reboot at Matt 15:24. Christ did not fail. The Lost Sheep of the other house recognized him readily....and still do.
Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
---Trav on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Business Training


"All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
---christan on 6/24/13
And who says you cannot walk away anytime you choose?


John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me ( THAT WOULD INCLUDE JUDAS), for they are thine.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
---francis on 6/24/13


MarkV, one verse that states man has a choice (free will) on whether to choose good or evil? You go it!

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live (Deut 30:19)

My turn. We'll take this slowly. I have only one question for you.

What does the word DISOBEDIENCE mean?
---LindaH on 6/24/13


Nikki, I totally agree with your statement. Maybe in the cave days, a man knocked over a woman, dragged her by the hair and claimed her as his property. Yet we see Dinah, Jacob's daughter was actually taken in that similar way. Look what happened. It's called rape. Taking one against their will.

We see no evidence in scripture where a man can force a woman to be his wife against her will. Even with Rebecca, her father asked her " do you want to go"... So even Rebecca father didn't force Rebeca to go and marry Isaac against her will.

We forget the Holy Spirit does the wooing? But we also know scripture says the Holy Spirit can be rejected.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/13


All that the father gives me...
Let's talk about Judas, lets talk election in relation to Israel who rejected the Lord.

The fact is election isn't and cannot be presented as standing in opposition to free choice or we start on a crooked path where even reality must be twisted to become compatable.

Judas was given to Jesus of the father (he said so in John 17) but didnt continue in discipleship MEANING that your interpretation of this verse is absolute nonsense. Who could be the defined elect more then Israel? Yet the Lord had the desire to gather them under his wing and they "would not" -his words!
---Pharisee on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Software


Shira, You didn't choose Christ, He chose you-MarkV

No, Shira is right!

MarkV, you left off a word 'first'.

When you and your wife got married, one of you all chose the other one first. But, the other one had to chose you as well. Or there isn't a marriage.
Can you imagine if it only takes one person to chose a mate? God forbid.

So, is with the Church and Christ. We are His Brides.
We can deny him and be miserable as Shira said.

Jesus chose Shira first.
---Nikki on 6/24/13


"...conviction was so heavy on me but I still could have walked away. your gospel is false. fake...nothing about your post is biblical." shira4368

You could have walked away? Wow! Jesus declared:

"All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Numerous verses from the Scriptures have contradicted your erroneous doctrines and what did you give in return? NOTHING BUT MORE LIES! Not a single Scripture backing and you dare call the Scriptures put before your eyes as "false and fake"?

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
---christan on 6/24/13


God always gives us free will.He doesn't want robots or little windup dolls.HE wants us to chose Him.
---shirley on 6/24/13


People here believe they are free to do what they want, that God gave them that freedom, but they are wrong. God never gave them that freedom. If He had, then God could not judge them right or wrong. He commanded mankind to obey, and many disobey.

---Mark_V. on 6/24/13

Mark,

What would God be judging if they have no freedom? What to do call a commanded to obey or disbey: freedom, choices or freewil,what??
---Ruben on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Advertising


Predestination is about as dumb as it gets,
Like a heavenly lottery that no one knows who wins until the numbers are revealed.
A few winners and all the rest are losers.
Wow straight out of a science-fiction movie like Soylent Green!
---1st_cliff on 6/24/13


Mark V,

We agree on many things, such as God predestining people, but we disagree on the point that we have no choice in the matter. If we had no choice in the matter, then there would be no such thing as free will, and sin would never occur as we would be mindless robots voicing our halleluiahs. God lays out our paths, but still lets us choose which one to walk down.
---A_servant on 6/24/13


You do well to quote Leviticus 20:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Colossians 3:5 but where in those verses does it say you have the ability to make yourself "holy"?
---christan on 6/23/13

I did not write them, i quoted them, have anissue with them, take it up with God.
God has never stopped any man from sinning, Gdo only makes a way out of temptation. e use our free will to sin or not to sin
---francis on 6/24/13


Scott1, are we asking, even after one s saved, their choice to sin wasn't theirs, but that too was predestined by God. REALLY? Does God really predestine disobedience and sin against Him?

NO. The verse states we/us are predestined to be conformed to His image. Who then are the WE/US here? I believe it means the CHURCH as a whole, not the individual person. Here's why. If one receives Christ today, and dies tomorrow, have they had time to be conformed to His image? Read Philippians 3, and what Paul states about being conformed to His death.

It's the Church as a whole, the WHOLE body of Christ having many members that will be presented without spot or wrinkle.

How does this affect my daily life? I DIE DAILY....
---kathr4453 on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Eating Disorders


Shira, you say,
"I could have chosen not to accept Christ but I can tell you I would have been miserable." shira4368" you didn't choose Christ, He chose you. You were dead in trespasses and sins, unable to do anything but "to follow the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" You had no choice in the matter.
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when were were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"
---Mark_V. on 6/24/13


Lindah, you say,
"Its a sickness. They are stuck on 10 verses of scripture and they discard the rest if it doesnt line up with what they want to believe."
If it's a sickness to believe in a Sovereign God then it's ok by me. I don't give ten verses, I give many, yet no matter which ones I give, you will still fight for your rights over God's. That tells me, you are still at enmity against God. You argue for Free will, and you cannot even provide one passage where God says He gave free will to man. Yet you speak with a loud voice. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I cannot change the hearts of others, only God can do that, but you still do not believe. You believe a person can change his own heart without God.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/13


christan on 6/23/13: While I agree with you, I do not think that your method of throwing out individual verses is a good idea of persuading people.

When Augustine, who really persuaded the church of predestination, wrote 'De Civitate Dei' he had to take a whole book to explain why predestination was the correct view.

It cannot be done in 125 words.

If you try, you will fail - or you will assume the people opposing you are apostates, while in fact you did not give them enough evidence.

Meet them as a member, exchange emails, and then discuss things in emails of thousands of words.

That is the proper method - and remember,a few of Pelagius views still remain, though very few.
---Peter9556 on 6/24/13


"And the Bible calls you a liar"

And I call you disrespectful, YOU called her a liar, and I HATE the arrogance you glibly display.

This is not the holy spirit speaking, you claim to be witnessing to us here on Christianet, what we're witnessing is you behaving disgracefully. This the Father does not do.

2 timothy 2:24-26 Where's the "gentle, meekness" part of your witness? How will any believe you if you speak this way? Your striving contentious spirit is not of God and you need to learn from the Spirit of God how to love. your view of God is unloving and therefore so are you.
---Pharisee on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Travel Packages


Christan: The ONLY thing that the church has (as far as I know) decided to be heretical is the view that the come to God without his calling us.

The METHOD by which we come to God has not been decided

Again, I am willing to be corrected, but this is a matter of church history

If there has been as far as I have been able to find if 2 months no declaration of heresy on the method, I assume it is not something obvious.

If you can show me, from a church or even non-church site, something that implies that one method of coming to God is heresy, I will be happy to read it.

Blessings
---Peter9556 on 6/24/13


Christan, no scripture is meaningless. Your interpretation is simply flawed.
---JackB on 6/24/13


Its a sickness. They are stuck on 10 verses of scripture and they discard the rest if it doesnt line up with what they want to believe.

Their god is in their belly as the scriptures say. Just look at how they speak of the God of scripture who offers man a choice. He is "weak and pathetic" as MarkV once said a couple of years ago. This is why they are blind. They would never worship a god who offers man salvation and expects us to grab hold of it by faith. God has given them up to their flesh and they seem quite content with it.
---LindaH on 6/24/13


Cluny, you say,

I will say this about predestination: It points out that God Himself takes the initiative in our salvation.
However, it mistakenly puts God inside time."


The plan God made is complete in front of Him. He knows the beginning and the end. But for us who live in time, the plan is only unfolding. We begin with Genesis, and the unfolding will end as we are told it will. Nothing is going to change. If something was, then God would have to change the plan. People here believe they are free to do what they want, that God gave them that freedom, but they are wrong. God never gave them that freedom. If He had, then God could not judge them right or wrong. He commanded mankind to obey, and many disobey.
---Mark_V. on 6/24/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Repair


Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
John 8:51 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."


John 6:44 is explained in John 6:64_65. It was said to call out the unbelief and disloyalty of some, to pricke their heart (as in Acts 2:37.)
Matthew 7:24 and 26. Two avenues, to do or to not do- man's choice.
---Nana on 6/24/13


Christian, God did draw me. conviction was so heavy on me but I still could have walked away. your gospel is false. fake...nothing about your post is biblical.
---shira4368 on 6/24/13


"I could have chosen not to accept Christ but I can tell you I would have been miserable." shira4368

It was you who chose Christ? Ya right. And the Bible calls you a liar... here's why:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..." John 15:16, "...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

All you have to do is give a verse of such a testimony of your kind of salvation you have declared, and the verses quoted above will be rendered meaningless.
---christan on 6/23/13


Christan: While I do not agree on the idea of free will, if you just read Leviticus 20:7, it certainly does SOUND as though one is able to purify oneself. You could also be able to have a similar idea about 1 John 3:3, though a bit less.

Because we do not accept the idea of free will, we say that what those sentences say is 'not in agreement with the rest of scripture' and so it must actually imply something something, that we must understand by reading the whole chapter, not just the verse.

But if you ONLY read Lev 20:7, you could take the idea of free will.

We dont because we take other verses to be more important - that's why on these things we have to read the whole Bible
---Peter9556 on 6/23/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Products


"A man's freewill cannot cure him of even a toothache or a sore finger' yet he madly thinks that it is in his power to cure his soul." A Toplady- It makes me totally secure in my salvation and in my walk with my Lord, knowing everything is from Him, even my trials and tribulations. A deep sense of peace and joy that there is no more condemnation.
---Tony on 6/23/13


francis, I never thought I would agree with you but you are right on the money on this one. we do have free will to accept anything or reject anything. I could have chosen not to accept Christ but I can tell you I would have been miserable.
---shira4368 on 6/23/13


francis, again and again you demonstrate your erroneous understanding of the Word. You do well to quote Leviticus 20:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Colossians 3:5 but where in those verses does it say you have the ability to make yourself "holy"? How does a man who's born in sin sanctify himself into a "holy" being like God? You sound like a buddhist.

Those verses are merely commands to demonstrate that the fallen man has no ability whatsoever or Joshua wouldn't have declared to Israel, "Ye cannot serve the Lord: for He is an holy God, He is a jealous God, He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

And if Israel couldn't, what gives you the impression you can?
---christan on 6/23/13


Where do you see here or anywhere in the Scripture that it's up to you to make yourself "holy and without blame"? Where?
---christan on 6/22/13
Leviticus 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy:
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection:
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth,
---francis on 6/23/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Divorce


I will say this about predestination: It points out that God Himself takes the initiative in our salvation.

However, it mistakenly puts God inside time.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/23/13


It's true Shirley, but I won't stop pressing this issue because it exposes the truth about what they believe. Only Satan would have us to believe part of what God's word says, there's a handful of verses cherry picked concerning salvation and the rest are twisted to meet the needs of the blasphemous view of God being presented. only a psychopath would need a psychopath God, how else will he feel good about himself if he doesn't imagine God to be just as he is. The mind that has imagined God has not known God, God defines himself and the boundary markers are not to be found out by the imaginations of men but revealed by the living Spirit, the same that breathed the words by which we may discern his holiness and worship him.
---Pharisee on 6/23/13


Pharisee, you will never convince some here that Christ died for every single person on earth. It is absorb to think God sent His Son to die for a select few. The bible does not contradict one single word.
---shira3468 on 6/23/13


Having free will helps me to understand it is I who am responsible in accepting God's love for me.
I can't blame God for any of my poor choices. I know I have to let go and let God.
Trusting God in everything is very hard.
But I know God has given me the Grace to trust Him.
Examining my thoughts, actions and non actions at least mid day and nightly.
No excuses for me.
---Nikki on 6/22/13


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Marriage


From a previous thread

Christian,

I have a philosophy degree and have taught the subject. I would regard Paul's Letter to the Romans as the greatest and most difficult philosophical piece ever written. For you to come along and rip 2 or 3 verses out of context, declaring "You're wrong Marc because Paul has said you are" not only plainly demonstrates your lack of exegetical training but, ironically, clearly shows you haven't understood a thing Paul was saying over that 5 or 6 chapters. Paul took that many chapters to get to a point where he could make his point, and you missed it. Sorry, but Paul was making the exact opposite theological and soteriological point you think he was making.
---Marc on 6/22/13


"God never forces anyone to be saved or lost" francis

Of course He doesn't! That's because He only saves those whom He loved in His Son before the foundations of the world. So says the Word:

"According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Ephesians 1:4,5

See? Being "holy and without blame" is predestined. Where do you see here or anywhere in the Scripture that it's up to you to make yourself "holy and without blame"? Where?
---christan on 6/22/13


I believe BOTH

1: I believe that God has predestined that all who believe in him will be saved

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

2: I believe that we are free to choose to believe God or not

God never forces anyone to be saved or lost

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
---francis on 6/22/13


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.