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Revivals Alter Call Hymns

Where are there scriptures for having revivals, altar calls, and invitation hymns, or pews? Give scriptures.

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 ---Cluny on 6/25/13
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Cliff, you have ducked answering what I wrote: "With Scripture we likewise interpret what has been written. Consider 'blasphemy'-defined as an assault upon God's character. In Mark 3:29 Jesus says anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. This means the Holy Spirit is God. In so many ways Jesus is called the God in Scripture. A good example is Zechariah 12:10 where God says He is the one pierced. However John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 these same words are applied to Jesus, it is He who is pierced. Scripture is telling us Jesus is God Almighty. We have God who is Spirit in three persons."

Tell me who was pierced? Was it God, or Jesus? Or both, they being one and the same being?
---Warwick on 7/5/13


\\Cluny, It's actually Gen.18. and it definitely says "3 men" (angels appearing as men). This is "trinity proof"????
---1st_cliff on 7/3/13\\

Thank you for your correction.

Yes, it IS one proof of the Trinity, because Abraham prostrated himself before them and addressed them collectively as YHVH.

There are many other places throughout the entire Bible, but since spiritual things are spiritually discerned, I don't expect you to get them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/3/13


\\You're living proof that ortho-doc's do read the Bible sometimes and find sign.\\

Who do you think decided what would be in the Bible to start with?

It wasn't your worldly denominational church.

And if you think you're being a wit with "ortho-docs", you could be half right.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/3/13


Cluny, It's actually Gen.18. and it definitely says "3 men" (angels appearing as men). This is "trinity proof"????
---1st_cliff on 7/3/13


Just in Genesis 19, where Abraham bowed down before a three-personned image of God, and addressed them as "My Lord."
---Cluny on 7/2/13


This was good Cluny your posting Gen 19. There is a saying that even a blind hog finds an acorn.

You're living proof that ortho-doc's do read the Bible sometimes and find sign.

Son 6:11 I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded.
---Trav on 7/3/13




Cliff God gave us brains so we can work things out. Are you still waiting at the first STOP sign you approached? Of course not, you know it means stop, and if necessary give way.

With Scripture we likewise interpret what has been written. Consider 'blasphemy'-defined as an assault upon God's character. In Mark 3:29 Jesus says anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. This means the Holy Spirit is God. In so many ways Jesus is called the God in Scripture. A good example is Zechariah 12:10 where God says He is the one pierced. However John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 these same words are applied to Jesus, it is He who is pierced. Scripture is telling us Jesus is God Almighty. We have God who is Spirit in three persons.
---Warwick on 7/3/13


aka, I get my evidence from the same place as you ...the bible! In it's 4,000years of existence, prior to Christ, absolutely no evidence of a triune god!
---1st_cliff on 7/2/13

cliff, is that the same bible that you cast down luke's testimony. A book that has part truth and part fiction is fiction.

Your testimony 6000 years later weighs more than Luke's gospel 2000 years ago? at least luke's book was in there. where is yours?

btw...the bible is one contiguous document and the full revelation of Divinity includes the 4000 years BC and approximately 100 years AD.
---aka on 7/3/13


Shira, It's because of my bible study that I draw my conclusions.
If you point out where in the bible it says "God the Father, God the Son and God the holy Spirit". I will believe it!
---1st_cliff on 7/2/13


wow cluny, you got it right on now brother. I don't know what book cliff is reading from but it isn't the same one I read. oh...I'm glad to see you told elder you made mistakes too. for some reason I didn't think you were capable of mistakes. brother, you are down to earth now. I appreciate your post.
---shira4368 on 7/2/13


Hymns: Eph5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Col3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Where are the scriptures for indoor plumbing, heating/AC, electric lighting, speaker systems, etc.???
Php4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
---trey on 7/2/13




\\In it's 4,000years of existence, prior to Christ, absolutely no evidence of a triune god!
---1st_cliff on 7/2/13
\\

Just in the Psalter: "By the Word [the Logos] of YHVH were the heavens made, and all their hosts by the Spirit of His Mouth."

Just in Genesis 19, where Abraham bowed down before a three-personned image of God, and addressed them as "My Lord."

Just in Genesis 2, where we read, "Let US make mankind in OUR image....."

And so it goes.

Otherwise, of course, you are right.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/2/13


1stcliff, if you studied your bible you would know there is God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost. how can you even think that is not true?
---shira4368 on 7/2/13


aka, I get my evidence from the same place as you ...the bible! In it's 4,000years of existence, prior to Christ, absolutely no evidence of a triune god!
---1st_cliff on 7/2/13


\\Melkite is a rite.\\

But it is also a church. Look up the web site, and you will see.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/13


What I said about the 1st 4 thousand years is true!
---1st_cliff on 7/1/13

you put doubt on Paul because he was backed by a witness that was not first hand to Jesus, but we are to believe you.

have you been around for the whole 1st 4 thousand years? is your testament first hand?
---aka on 7/1/13


Cluny, yes they are Churches, but they are in union with Pope Frances.
They are not like the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in union with Pope Frances.

The Liturgies are the same, but the belief of Peter being First among Brothers is not their belief. They are that ones the split in 1054. Some returned, but others as your Church as not.

Church is defined as a vivid Priesthood.
Orthodox Churches have vivid Priesthood but not in union the Pope Frances.

The Eastern Churches with the rites in the Catholic Church (Pope Frances) have their own rites and Patriarch. But Pope Frances is first.

Melkite is a rite.
You added the word Greek. I just know about the Melkite with the Byzantine liturgy.
---Nikki on 7/1/13


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aka, I can't help it if a cult has a certain doctrine.
What I said about the 1st 4 thousand years is true!
---1st_cliff on 7/1/13


\\Cluny, rites, not Eastern Catholic Churches.\\

Wrong again, Nikki.

The Melkites, Chaldeans, Syriacs, Maronites, and others ARE Churches, but HAVE rites.

That is the teaching of Vatican II. Read the decree on the Eastern CHURCHES.

Gregorios III (Laham), for example, is the Patriarch of the Melkite Greek Catholic CHURCH, not rite.

If you don't believe me, you can look him up on line.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/13


Cluny, rites, not Eastern Catholic Churches.

BYZANTINE. The largest of these eastern rites is the Byzantine. The Byzantine liturgy is based on liturgy developed by St. James for the Antiochaian church, but modified by St. Basil (329-379) and St. John Chrysostom (344-407). This liturgy is similar if not identical to the liturgy used by the Orthodox churches...
These churches after they returned to the fold have generally been treated as separate rites based on their particular location, even though they have similar if not identical liturgy. The churches using the Byzantine liturgy include the Albanian, Belarussian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Greek, Hungarian, Italo-Albanian, Melkite, Romanian, Russian, Ruthenian, Slovak, and Ukrainian-CNA
---Nikki on 7/1/13


\\Cluny, sorry, but I said it correctly.
There are 21 or 27 rites in the Catholic Church\\

No, you did not.

Vatican II calls them sui juris churches.

And between them they use only about 6 different rites or liturgical families.

The Ukrainian, Melkite, Ruthenian/Byzantine, and Romanian Catholic Churches use different recensions of the Byzantine liturgy, but they are four separate Eastern Catholic Churches with their own hierarchies.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/13


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... they never heard of a trinity, except for pagan gods!
---1st_cliff on 6/30/13

you turn everything into the doctrine of what you call a cult.
---aka on 6/30/13


Cluny, sorry, but I said it correctly.
There are 21 or 27 rites in the Catholic Church.

Eastern Catholic Churches are not the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church.

The American Catholic Church (which is a religion) isn't the Catholic Church in America.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Where you put the word is very important. It isn't the same as race.
I can say I am a Black America, or Black person in America.

But, I am a Catholic in America.
Not an American Catholic.

How you use the words are important.
Eastern Catholics doesn't not mean they are under the Pope Francis.

But the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church are under the Pope Francis.
---Nikki on 6/30/13


Shira, By your reasoning ,for the 1st four thousand years no one was saved because they never heard of a trinity, except for pagan gods!
---1st_cliff on 6/30/13


Cluny, What do you call three gods if not they?
I know you'll say "Him".
Like God the father
God the son
God the Holy Spirit
One God with three different names!

God the Son talked to God the Father so that's at least two. "They" is right!
---1st_cliff on 6/30/13


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God tells us, in His Word, to go into the world and preach the gospel. The gospel is not only taught in spoken words but can also be sung and written or in sign language. We should use any/all means at our disposal to reach others. It used to be missionaries sailing for weeks to reach lost people and now we use the internet. If one way doesn't work we try another. God made us very inventive and creative creatures.
---Rita_H on 6/30/13


if you don't believe in the trinity then how can you be saved? we are saved thru Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. who is the comforter do you believe Christ is God in the flesh? wow, I don't see how anyone can be saved without all 3
---shira4368 on 6/30/13


\\Cluny, **How can he be they?**
That's exactly the argument against trinity!
---1st_cliff on 6/30/13\\

Except that nobody calls the Holy Trinity "they."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/13


REVIVAL: Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones, Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

ALTAR CALL:Exodus 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me.
---francis on 6/27/13

Good examples. You're making reality progress. Both cases were Israel. All of Israel.

Isa_14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, set them in their own land: the (ger)strangers shall be joined with them, they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And so he has they have and so it is.
---Trav on 6/30/13


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Cluny, **How can he be they?**
That's exactly the argument against trinity!
---1st_cliff on 6/30/13


Shira: I grew up in the Catholic Church, and did, and do, attend a Baptist church, first in Pennsylvania now in Michigan. When I was raising my kids, there'd be a few hymn sings at evening church. My favorite evening church activity was Sword Drills. My kids really got into those.
---Grandma on 6/29/13


grandma, I live in the south and Baptist in the south have revivals, campmeeting and gospel sings. I have always loved it. our members would save their vacation times and attend campmeetings. Holy Ghost fell on some of those meetings.
---shira4368 on 6/29/13


How can "he" be a "they"?

The grammar police strike again.

cluny

false arrest.

"i am legion...for i am many."

just as willie pointed out. you (s. and pl.) seem to have several personalities.
---aka on 6/29/13


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Francis: 'It is just a matter of how Sola scriptura is defined'

That is a very good point.

A few people might disagree with the whole idea, but far more people will disagree with the other person's way of using 'Sola scriptura'

I dislike bringing this up, but if anyone really wants to, it is always POSSIBLE to say that two sections of scripture disagree with each other, or things like that - and so two people will each use one verse, ignore the verse the other person is using, and each claim the other is being 'unscriptural'

So in that way, the use of tradition, as the RCC and the Orthodox Church does, is beneficial
---Peter9556 on 6/29/13


\\if there is only one Cluny, he needs to get back on their meds.
---aka on 6/28/13\\

How can "he" be a "they"?

The grammar police strike again.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/13


where are there scripture for having computers, internet, or CNet?

if there is only one Cluny, he needs to get back on their meds.
---aka on 6/28/13


\\The Catholic rites in the Eastern part of the world use that term as well.
---Nikki on 6/28/13\\

Nikki, they are not "Eastern Catholic Rites" but "Eastern Catholic CHURCHES."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/29/13


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Since it is apparent that the early church met primarily in homes, we better get our sofas ready for a lot of people. Then we need to make sure the dining table is ready to seat a lot of people. Whatever we do, we want to make sure that we don't do anything that Cluny thinks is not Biblical. NOT!!!!!
---KarenD on 6/28/13


Nikki, I think Cluny can answer for himself, It's an old Victorian idea that some subjects are taboo.
It is mentioned in the Orthodox church canon so it is not all that hush-hush!
---1st_cliff on 6/27/13

I don't have a problem with the certain words.


Nikki--the Patriarch of Constantinople is NOT the Orthodox pope- Cluny

I never thought he was. I know there are many sects of the Orthodox Churches.
Plus, I never heard of an Orthodox Pope.
There might be one, but I never heard of one.

Orthodox Churches are not the only ones to use the titles of Patriarchs.
The Catholic rites in the Eastern part of the world use that term as well.
---Nikki on 6/28/13


Sola scriptura has been blogged here many times. What I have noticed is that everyone seem to have his or her own definition of Sola scriptura, and by his or her own definition everyone is correct

It is just a matter of how Sola scriptura is defined
---francis on 6/28/13


Grandma:

Cluny's point is, I presume an example of reductio ad absurdum. Many times on these blogs, people (presumably from various evangelical groups) have insisted on sola scriptura (i.e. if it isn't in the Bible, you can't rely on it), and then condemned various practices of Catholics or Orthodox because they aren't in the Bible. Cluny then points out the absurdity of that by saying that if THOSE are sins because they aren't in the Bible, then altar calls and pews etc. must therefore ALSO be sins (i.e. absurd premises lead to absurd conclusions).
---StrongAxe on 6/28/13


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Cluny and Shira, these issues here are cultural, and not Scriptural I wasn't raised in the Baptist church, with hymnals and such. Never went to a revival. Attended a church with altar calls a few times, but didn't like it. Had pews most of my life, but have attended a church that uses chairs in rows for about ten years. Prefer the chairs. More comfortable.

Went to Spain as a summer missionary with a college ministry, and first sang praise music during the daily devotions. Prefer praise music. Church I attend both praise and hymns. Neither is right or wrong. Cultural issues don't have a Biblical basis. But it's wrong to call one church's practice a sin, unless it says so in the Bible.
---Grandma on 6/28/13


---Cluny on 6/28/13
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy GoD

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation,

Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Sabbath is biblical, Sunday is not. Unless you are not sure which day of the week is the sabbath of My God,
---francis on 6/28/13


This is my first look at blogs of any sort. I naively thought I would find brothers and sisters filled with love and grace. Naive is the word. This is no different than being in the world of rude and crass conversation. I am dusting my feet off and walking away
---PattiAndrews on 6/28/13


Jed:

Cluny said: We Orthodox generally do NOT use musical instruments.

You said: And what is your scriptural basis for this?

Why does he need one? He made no mention of any prohibition against instruments, just a general custom.

I usually don't eat coconuts. I don't need scriptural justification for this. It's my freedom of choice. I would only need that if I actively taught others that eating coconuts is a sin, which I don't do.
---StrongAxe on 6/28/13


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cluny, if you had a little common sense you would know rock music is of the world. we are to be separate and not part of the world. if you can't tell the difference I'm sorry for you. to be so educated you should know all that already.
---shira4368 on 6/28/13


\\You do not accept that all that the church / christian nees to do is in the bible, neither do I.\\

Except, of course, when you talk about the Saturday sabbath.

Rather inconsistent, aren't you, francis?

Unless, of course, you believe we must be guided by the ravings of EGW as well.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/13


I suppose this is about Sola scriptura
---francis on 6/28/13\\

Wrong again.

You really miss the point, don't you?

However, my point is the things I've mentioned are dear to the heart of those who say "Sola scriptura"--but there's no scriptural warrant for them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/13

So it is about sola scriptura after all. You do not accept that all that the church / christian nees to do is in the bible, neither do I.

So you are asking those who belive it to point out those things which they practice in the bible

I get it

Now ask eachperson to define sola scriptura, see what happens



LOL
---francis on 6/28/13


\\I suppose this is about Sola scriptura
---francis on 6/28/13\\

Wrong again.

You really miss the point, don't you?

However, my point is the things I've mentioned are dear to the heart of those who say "Sola scriptura"--but there's no scriptural warrant for them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/13


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---Cluny on 6/27/13
I suppose this is about Sola scriptura
---francis on 6/28/13


\\music in church should not be rock music either.
---shira4368 on 6/28/13\\

Why not? Where does the Bible say that?

Didn't you know that rock has its roots in the music of some country and Pentecostal churches?

Nikki--the Patriarch of Constantinople is NOT the Orthodox pope. He actually has no jurisdiction outside the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The Church of Greece, for example, is autocephalous under the Archbishop of Athens.

But the structure of Orthodoxy is not the subject of this blog.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/13


cluny, my notebook is not in the bible either but everyone on christianet has a computer. phones are not in the bible either but every family has several and we enjoy them. I still love campmeetings, hymnals, pews and music with all instruments. music in church should not be rock music either.
---shira4368 on 6/28/13


\\If the Patriarch states masturbation is a sin he will accept it.... \\

Nikki, first off, not all Orthodox Churches are patriarchal ones. Some have an archbishop as the primate, others a metropolitan or catholicos.

Next, no Orthodox patriarch or prime bishop (primate) stands in the position of the Roman Catholic pope as the last word on doctrine. That's a mistake many non-Orthodox, both Protestants and Roman Catholics, make when looking at us. (And I know that papal infallibility has its rigidly defined limits and conditions.)

But you are right. Sola scriptura is a Protestant tradition and precept of men found nowhere in the Bible itself. We're not required to play by that rule.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/13


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Nikki, I think Cluny can answer for himself, It's an old Victorian idea that some subjects are taboo.
It is mentioned in the Orthodox church canon so it is not all that hush-hush!
---1st_cliff on 6/27/13


REVIVAL: Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones, Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

ALTAR CALL:Exodus 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me.
---francis on 6/27/13


Cluny...I was wondering because of the fire that destroyed a church not too far from us. Praying it was not your church.
---KarenD on 6/27/13


Jed and Cliff, why are you asking Cluny for Scripture evidence?
He isn't claiming Scripture is the only authority as you all are claiming it is the only and final authority.

That's is why he is asking why you all have revivals, altar calls, and such not in the Bible.

If the Patriarch states masturbation is a sin he will accept it. (which they do) He doesn't need any biblical proof from the Patriarch.

Be careful, some might be upset for you using the word 'masturbation'.
---Nikki on 6/27/13


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\\And what is your scriptural basis for this?
---Jed on 6/27/13\\

Just don't. It's not a doctrinal issue.

OTOH, many early Protestants DID make it a doctrinal issue, seeing no justification for or examples of the use of musical instruments in the NT.

Some denominations still do.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/13



Guess what, KarenD?

We Orthodox generally do NOT use musical instruments.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 6/26/13


And what is your scriptural basis for this?
---Jed on 6/27/13


Cluny, Is it true that masturbation is a sin in Orthodoxy? (as it is in many denominations) what is the scriptural basis for this ?
---1st_cliff on 6/27/13


willie, there's only ONE Cluny.

KarenD, like most converts, I simply prefer to be called Orthodox without an ethnic label. While some Greek and Antiochian parishes in the United States use an organ for more than the choir finding its pitch, they are not used in Greece or the Middle East. And it's NOT really our tradition.

It's really strange in this case, as Byzantine and neo-Byzantine music has microtonal intervals (such as the note between E and F on the piano), which are unplayable on Western instruments.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/13


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Which Cluny wants to know? It seems like there are maybe a Mr. and Mrs. Cluny taking turns on the computer . . . or a monastery of Clunies . . . one making snotty remarks, another surprisingly helpful, another quite stuck in "Orthodox" academics and apologetics.

The Bible does not directly say to have altar calls, but Jesus does say, "whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." (in Matthew 10:32) God can use an altar call to have someone confess Jesus before men. But an altar call can be a hoax of hypnotic music and singing and social pressure to copy-cat what people are looking for, so you confess their church (Galatians 4:17).
---willie_c: on 6/27/13


Cluny...Are you greek or russian orthodox?
---KarenD on 6/26/13


Guess what, KarenD?

We Orthodox generally do NOT use musical instruments.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/13


Karen, Seeing that you're blond, no need to apologize lol
---1st_cliff on 6/26/13


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SORRY 1ST CLIFF....Senior Blond Moment.

CLUNY....Where are there scriptures for pianos, organs, hymnals, altars, baptismal fonts, curtains, carpeting, windows, doors, etc. etc? Your question is silly. You just want to start an argument. These kinds of questions are getting really old!!!!
---KarenD on 6/26/13


Thanks Elder, you're my hero!
---1st_cliff on 6/26/13


Cluny, well, for altar calls, invitation hymns or pews, the obvious answer is none.

However, for revivals, there are two areas that could be quoted.

The book of Jonah is a book (apart for the personal story of Jonah) of a revival in Nineveh.

There is also the story of all the people who had a 'revival' under John the baptist, as is recorded in Matt 3:1-12 and Luke 3:3-18. So you could say that there was a 'revival' in Israel under john the Baptist, as well
---Peter on 6/26/13


Cluny is asking this question because only Churches with altar calls, invitation hymns and revivals believe in only Scripture concept.

KarenD, I think it is a valid question.

These same Churches throw out confession, communion services, Icons, holy water tiny fonts to bless oneself and many other items in Orthodox and Catholic Churches claiming they are not in Scripture.

So why throw these out, but not the ones Cluny asked about?

By the way, you say argument, and some say debate.
If not here on CN, where?
Don't answer if you are getting tired of these questions.
NurseRobert doesn't as his right.
---Nikki on 6/26/13


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"1stCliff...Where are there scriptures for pianos, organs, hymnals, altars, baptismal fonts, curtains, carpeting, windows, doors, etc. etc? Your question is silly. You just want to start an argument. These kinds of questions are getting really old!!!!"
---KarenD on 6/25/13
Karen that was Cluny who asked the question not Cliff.
Cliff gets jumped on enough as it is so I gotta let ya know...lol!
---Elder on 6/26/13


My previous church didn't have any of the items in the list above. Instead of pews, we had movable chairs, that linked together, which pastor sometimes had us move during the service.

My current church has had all but the revival, since I've been attending.

I am not aware of any Scripture verse that supports, or refutes, any of these things being part of a church's building or practice.
There are many objects and practices that many churches use that are not Scriptural. That doesn't make them wrong, or right.

Why do you ask?
---GrandmaT on 6/26/13


Karen, it don't bother me is any one don't have a hymnal, pews, musical Instruments or revivals and campmeetings. I like musical instruments, hymnals, pews and campmeetings. King david enjoyed singing and playing instruments.
---shira4368 on 6/25/13


What difference does it make!
---Catherine on 6/25/13


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KarenD, This is not my question!
---1st_cliff on 6/25/13


1stCliff...Where are there scriptures for pianos, organs, hymnals, altars, baptismal fonts, curtains, carpeting, windows, doors, etc. etc? Your question is silly. You just want to start an argument. These kinds of questions are getting really old!!!!
---KarenD on 6/25/13


Cluny, You're getting into an area that's man made, stepping on tender toes!
---1st_cliff on 6/25/13


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