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Can We Reject God

It is explicit in Romans 8:34-39 that NOTHING can separate the sinner from the love of God when they are chosen for salvation. Yet we have many who declare that a sinner can choose to either thwart God's will to save them by rejecting Him? Make sense?

Moderator - Free will.

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//Yet we have many who declare that a sinner can choose to either thwart God's will to save them by rejecting Him?//

Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
---aka on 6/30/13


I have seen churches with Ichabod written over the the door and I assure you it wasn't the spiritual door. it was a church building with real people and certain ones wanted to run the church. treated the pastor real bad. God will judge them. remember when Jesus invited all to come and dine? they all had excuses. that church is as dead mens bones to this day.
---shira4368 on 6/30/13


YES WE CAN and MANY HAVE

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you, And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead, whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 13:46 but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Deuteronomy 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods:

1 Samuel 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God

2 Kings 17:15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers,
---francis on 6/30/13


For your information, God never stops been Soverign, Supreme or God. His nature, character and attributes never change. "He is the same yesterday, today and forever." You cannot change God to fit your theology. In trying to do so, gives evidence of the enmity you still have with God.

Mark_V.

But Mark one of the points you insist on is that GOD changed. He got rid of the Ten Commandments. He said in the New Covenant he would write his law in our hearts. But you say he got rid of the law. GOD specifically says he loved the whole world. You say that is false. You have never answered once the contradiction, that I have seen, where the bible states GOD loves everyone when your theology says he only loves a few.
---samuelbb7 on 6/30/13


---Mark_V. on 6/30/13
Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith,
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness


2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

2 Corinthians 3:3 not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

SO you are saying that God does not need permission to enter one's heart, but he needs a door opened so he canenter a church
---francis on 6/30/13




What a beggarly and pathetic jesus christ you have.
---christan on 6/29/13

Christan, foolish and disrespectful statements like this one why you are spiritually blind to the truth and will remain so as long as you hate what our God stands for.

Our God is meek and lowly (Matt 11:29).

Our God is the savior of all men whether they accept him or not. (1 Tim 4:10)

Our God is no respecter of persons. (Romans 2:11)

Our God spilled his blood not just for some but for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2)

Our God desires all men to come the knowledge of the truth and be saved (1 Tim 2:4)

Absolute power with the heart of a servant. Thats what He wants us to be as well.
---Jasheradan on 6/30/13


Pharisee, you are talking to a dead wall.

Couldn't be more perfectly stated. The Bible is truth, but people can know the Bible and still not know the truth, Here's a perfect example:

"So no, no genuine believer can fall away."

Spoken like a person with no experience in reality. A false minister. YES God's power is such as you said, but again if you think he's dragging people kicking and screaming against him to Heaven you don't know the truth. Was Hebrews 6:4-6 and others like it put in the scripture for decoration? Apparently you believe it was. Today I wash my hands of you, christian, seg and anybody else who do not repent. Mock the truth freely I have a life to get on with.
---Pharisee on 6/30/13


Pharisee, you are talking to a dead wall. of course Christ died for the whole world. I have seen many under conviction but reject God. my husband did that. God stopped dealing with him for over 10 yrs. I prayed for 10 yrs that God would deal with his heart. that is why we have missionaries and church. we are to bring them in under preaching and also one on one witnessing.
---shira4368 on 6/30/13


francis, you should find another passage to make your point, since Jesus does not knock at a persons heart, and wants you to let Him in. No passage found in all of Scripture. When you guys argue a point, at least use the Word of God. And don't do what Pharisee does, to change the nature of God to fit your theology. God does not change for anyone. Another thing, "Nothing can separate us from the love of God" So no, no genuine believer can fall away. God will make him stand, and Jesus will sustain him till the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. That means His Second Coming. Alson read (1 John 2:19) about those who walk away from the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 6/30/13


"You cannot change God to fit your theology."

I'm not changing God, the Bible describes him as merciful, Jesus didn't act with the sovereign authority of Heaven regarding judgement when he walked in the earth he met people right where they were in their sin and entreated them, he chooses to be relational with his creation.

If anything your the one changing God to be non relational, forcing himself upon worshipers and altogether discriminating against others not letting them come to him. Your the one who needs forgiveness, not me, I'm telling what he's told me to tell.
---Pharisee on 6/30/13




Pharisee, now you want to change the nature of God to make your theory fit. You say,
"And if it was to his own desire to limit his power to involve the cooperation of man to choose to love him in a relationship he could do that TOO because he is GOD !"
For your information, God never stops been Soverign, Supreme or God. His nature, character and attributes never change. "He is the same yesterday, today and forever." You cannot change God to fit your theology. In trying to do so, gives evidence of the enmity you still have with God. Ask God to forgive you, tell Him you will find another way to argue your point.
---Mark_V. on 6/30/13


What a beggarly and pathetic jesus christ you have.
---christan on 6/29/13
NO, IT IS A HUMBLE jESUS, lORD, AND sAVIOUR WHO DOES NOT FORCE HIS WAY OR HIS WILL ON ANYONE

He knocks on the heart of everyman, and those who are willing to let him in, he will sup with them


Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


see how free will works
---francis on 6/30/13


//Yet we have many who declare that a sinner can choose to either thwart God's will to save them by rejecting Him?//

Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
---aka on 6/29/13


He's savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10) and 1 John 2:2 says he atoned for the sins of the "whole world" and 1 Timothy 2:4 says he wills that "all men" be saved, and Jesus said he would draw "all men" unto himself, and 2 Timothy 2:12 says we can "deny him" (speaking about believers) how can it be no choice exists?

God would just save all men apart from their own desire? That defies the image in which God created man, after his own, God has choice and he gave the same, No one can love without choice to do so, yet God commands Love. What need of command is there if we don't choose? A person is in bondage to sin without salvation, there is 1 FREE choice, to choose God who draws all men. John 12:32
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


"IF God want to save all men he could because He is God !"

And if it was to his own desire to limit his power to involve the cooperation of man to choose to love him in a relationship he could do that TOO because he is GOD !

Why don't you see, nobody can love God at all if they were forced to do so, love involves a choice, God is the most miserable of all? NOBODY LOVES HIM because he forces everyone to love him according to you, Nobody can choose him.. Jesus DID! The curse is broken in his flesh for us that WE MAY NOW FREELY CHOOSE, "by his stripes we are healed," the veil was rent, the separation is over and God is actively drawing all men to himself. You are false witnesses against the almighty.
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


"Jesus is not knocking at the church door hoping the deacon comes and opens for him. He knock at the heart of individuals hoping we will let him in." francis

What a beggarly and pathetic jesus christ you have.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."


You're not even close to this Christ of the Bible.
---christan on 6/29/13


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More to the point...

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may* also* obtain* the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if* we* deny* him*, read it again please he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2:10-13

The scriptures don't support your view, at least Paul's understanding doesn't express the fallacious idea that God drags unwilling people to Heaven.
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


---Mark_V. let me see if I get this right

1: God does not need permission to enter an individual heart.
2: God needs permission to enter a church which bears his name.
3: If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and responded in saving faith He would enter the Church

O.K. So God's will is to enter the church, but it requires ONE person to responded in saving faith, does that one person have FREE WILL to respond or not respond?
---francis on 6/29/13


Rev_1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

They just have to choose it with their free-will.
Right Pharisee! Otherwise what?

How can you have free-will to choose, to be saved?
Then say God is the Savior of all men. Where is the choice?
Where is your free-will?

You, yourself dont believe it!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/29/13


1 Timothy 4:10 - For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we truth in the living God , Who is the savior of ALL Men. specially of those who believe,

Savior of All Men - IF God want to save all men he could because He is God ! , Everyone would be Born Again under the promise - Saved .

Savior of all Men -----> ALL the saving is done By God.

Those who Believe ----

Romans 10:10 For with the -- heart -- believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26 - A New Heart also will I give you , and a new spirit will I put in within you , And take away the stoney Heart out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh,

( Born again )
---RICHARDC on 6/29/13


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For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10

There is simply no way to reconcile this to the hyper calvinist position. If you were honest in your exposition of the scriptures you'd have to find a way to include this verse and others like it. The fact that you can't means your doctrine is not entirely correct and you need to start over. If you say God has taught you what you believe I ask why hasn't this been included? He would not teach you anything that contradicts the full revelation of himself of which this saying is.
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


-Mark_V. on 6/29/13
The church is not a building, it is the people

Jesus is not knocking at the church door hoping the deacon comes and opens for him

He knock at the heart of individuals hoping we will let him in

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith,

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

FREE WILL says that you do not have to open your hearts to Jesus is you do not want to
---francis on 6/29/13


" 3. ...
Rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christs knocking on a persons heart, the context demands that we say that Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. ... If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and respond in saving faith, Christ would enter the church.

4. What is the tribulation and where does it fit in the Book of Revelation?
The tribulation refers to that seven-year time period immediately following the removal of the church from the earth..."

John MacArthur's Quick Reference Guide to the Bible

Talk about eating John MacArthur's cereal, verse by verse of nonsense (mas loca que una chiva!).
---Nana on 6/29/13


Hebrews 3:12-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (KJV)

See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end (NIV)

Scripture is clear. YES - we can
---Jasheradan on 6/29/13


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"You put man in the center of your beliefs, and surround him with power over God."

To as many as received him (you cannot receive something/one without agreement, especially in this case as it's a gift) to them gave he POWER to be the Sons of God. It's not a matter of man having more power than God but of God sharing his power and sovereignty. The Lord Jesus' prayer for believers was that they would be one with him, and what did they say of Christ: "they marveled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men." Mat 9:8

Mark if you had no power in your salvation you never got saved. Jesus said he would "draw all men to himself" what part of this don't you understand?
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


Do you even know what blaspeme of the Spirit is?

Well I'll tell you this, I can spell it. Furthermore it's not what I accused you of, I said you were blaspheming God, not publicly denouncing the work of the Holy Spirit.

Mark your right or wrong about 1 thing, but 1 thing is all that is needed to be wrong to speak evil of God. The serpent's words in the garden are a perfect example, what he and you both do is misrepresent the nature of God, he did it intentionally, you are just smug and ignorant so God will forgive you if you repent... but alas you won't... James 3:1... some were sent, and some just went. I don't have to ask God again, he went out of his way to prove to me who I am.
---Pharisee on 6/29/13


Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

right when there is scripture that says one thing, it turns around and says something else.

there is no free will. there is only God's will wherein is the only true freedom.

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. ...

1Co 10:29 ...For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience?
1Co 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?
---aka on 6/28/13


francis, I don't know how many times you have to be told that Jesus Christ does not knock on the door of unbelievers hearts hoping you will let Him in. No such passage in all of Scripture. Jesus Christ is not a Jehovah Witness, knocking at the door of people homes hoping they let Him in. That is shear nonesense. If you had read (Rev. 3:20) the context tells us Jesus was seeking to enter the lukewarm church at Laodicea which bore His name, but lacked a single believer. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and responded in saving faith He would enter the Church.
This has nothing to do with Him knocking in a persons heart. You cannot make things up, it is adding to the Word of God and there is a curse in doing that.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/13


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Pharisee, and so you also say,
"I'm not writing this because I want to feel I'm right, but in hope that you'll stop blaspheming God." Do you even know what blaspeme of the Spirit is? You have no clue what you are talking about. If anyone is blaspheming God, it is you who bring doctrines of man which really are doctrines of the enemy. You put man in the center of your beliefs, and surround him with power over God. (Rom. 3:11) says,
"There is none who seeks after God" And you call God a liar. You say man can and does seek after God while lost. Shear nonsense. A sinful sinner checkmating the Sovereign will of God.
Why not just admit you are not saved as Jerry just did. Get it over with.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/13


Richard, in romans 8:34-39, paul was talking to Christians. he wasn't talking to sinners.
---shira4368 on 6/29/13


Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it until day of Jesus Christ.
---RICHARDC on 6/28/13


I think Christ, himself, summed it up best when he said.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen, and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father, and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven.
And all these thing!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/28/13


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Adetunji, read Matthew 11:27 carefully,

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and NO MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." - was Christ saying that it is the sinner who chooses to know the Father and Son? Where?

It becomes clear that verse 28 calling only points to those whom the Son has revealed Himself to, clearly justifying what Christ declared in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Simply means, those who hear Christ is because they were drawn by the Father. By their freewill? Right.
---christan on 6/28/13


Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Haggai 2:17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands, yet ye [turned] not to me, saith the LORD.
---francis on 6/28/13


Those who claim to be presestined to be saved, tell me how do ou know that you are predestined to be saved, and not one of those who are predestined in the latter times to depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,
---francis on 6/28/13


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
francis


And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: (them also I must bring), and (they shall hear my voice), and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

(My sheep hear my voice), and (I know them, and they follow me):

Art thou a king then? Jesus answered:
Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause (came I into the world), that (I should bear witness unto the truth). (Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice!)
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/28/13


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Christan://Adetunji, why would you feel that one is forced by God to be a believer // I am very sure that God does not force people to accept or follow Him.

In your own understanding, is Matt.11:27 & 11:28 contradictory or confusing you?
---Adetunji on 6/28/13


Free will? No one can come to the Father unless first being drawn by the Father!When God comes to the individual, you literally have no control over it. He draws you to the Son so you can be forgiven of all your sins through His Blood.
---Catherine on 6/27/13
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
---francis on 6/28/13


Pharisee
There are many who believe it was (their choice) to believe!
You wrote "draw all men to himself."
He said "if I be lifted up from the earth"
Who's being lifted?

Wasn't it God who sent him to the world, when the world knew him not-Joh_1:10!
Wasn't it Christ who came to the world, showing himself openly?
I know how good it feels to believe you chose him.
Not recognizing the, I did, you didn't. Of it!

But as many as (received him), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(Which were born),
(not of blood),
(nor of the will of the flesh),
(nor of the will of man),
but of God!

Peace
---TheSeg on 6/28/13


Pharisee, if you did not talk so much and read the passages of Scripture and believed in the God of Scripture, you would know the Truth and it would set you free even from your failure to discuss any godly topics. Most of you who reject the Sovereignty of God do the very same thing, complain and whin. Look up the word "Sovereign" Here you say,
"it's an overall failure to discern the spirit of God to believe that It's somehow glorious for a God who can do anything to have people go to hell on his watch"
They are going to hell already on His watch. Why? Because of the curse God put on mankind. All descendants of Adam are condemned already read (John 3:18,19) Why do you reject this Truth and complain?
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13


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Jesus completed an action that he said would "draw all men to himself." John 12:32 (see also Acts 17:31, 1 Tim 2:6, 1 John 2:2, Heb 2:9)

The Lord's Own testimony is that he would be the means of salvation to the "WORLD" first through his prophet John Baptist (John 1:29) and then from his own teaching which he was given by the Father. (John 3:16-17, 4:42, 6:33, 6:51, 8:26, 9:5+39, 11:9, 12:46-47 and 17:18)

We have this kind of testimony from someone who had the privilege of spending three years being personally taught by him and yet is being completely ignored because of a handful of Bible verses that SEEM to support an opposing view. It's time to let GOD teach you about salvation and not John Calvin.
---Pharisee on 6/27/13


No I haven't gone haywire on you, this is the patient part of me your getting.

You say it's a miracle God saves anyone, that alone proves you don't know him, that's the only reason creation continues as it does.

By saying God only chooses certain people to be saved you are in fact saying he's committed the balance to eternal torment without a hope or care for them, yet the Bible says that that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, it's an overall failure to discern the spirit of God to believe that It's somehow glorious for a God who can do anything to have people go to hell on his watch, if you balance the whole of scripture you'll discover predestination and free will are BOTH in play while seeming contradictory.
---Pharisee on 6/27/13


Marc, you make such a stupid comments? What makes you think that is what I believe? You say,
"According to Mark, God only makes some children of God but wishes all the others to go to hell because he really wants them to go to hell."
What you said is according to you. When did I ever say God wishes all the others to go to hell? God doesn't make them go to hell. All decendants of Adam are heading to hell, they are condemned already. The miracle is that God saves any at all. He could just let everyone go to hell for no one deserves mercy.
You make stupid comments because you do not understand what God is doing. God gets no pleasure in those going to hell for rebelling against God. But He is a God of justice also.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


Pharisee, did I ever say to you that your doctrines were trash? That you were not saved? That if you do not believe the passages I put down you are going to hell? I have answered your questions with questions. You answer me suggesting that you came to Christ out of your own free will. I tell you it is not possible, give you the reasons why, and suddenly you blow a gasket and instead of putting down passages to show what I said was wrong, you go hay-wire on me. You cannot discuss anything godly. You lose it.
No one in a lost condition has the ability to come to Christ out of his own free will. God has to draw him, make him alive, and change his heart by putting the love of Christ in him. otherwise he remains dead in sin, heading to hell.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


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But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours, but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

Eph_4:13!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/27/13


John 3:3 - Jesus answered said to him, most assuredly, I say, unless one is Born Again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

2 Corinthains 5:17 - Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation, Old things have passed away, behold ,all things have become new,

1 Peter - 1:23 Having been born again, not of Corruptible seed, but incorruptible, though the word of god which lives and abides forever,

Colossians 3:10 - And having put on the New man who is Renewed in the knowledge according to the image of who created him,
---RICHARDC on 6/27/13


Free will? No one can come to the Father unless first being drawn by the Father!When God comes to the individual, you literally have no control over it. He draws you to the Son so you can be forgiven of all your sins through His Blood.
---Catherine on 6/27/13


Adetunji, why would you feel that one is forced by God to be a believer when it's so explicitly mentioned and taught in the Scriptures that He has chosen/elected those He loved before the foundations of the world?

You do well to quote Matthew 11:28 but your understanding to that verse is erroneous. That's because the verse prior, Jesus declared: "All things are delivered unto me of my Father", simply confirming election and who He was calling in verse 28.

Isn't it then a blessing and privileged to be chosen/elected by God unconditionally by His grace? Or does that sound offending to you and your imaginary freewill?
---christan on 6/27/13


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I feel the need to point something out. Evidence has been listed to destroy your hyper calvinistic doctrine (2Kin 17:5, 1Sam 10:19, Jer 8:9, Joh 12:48, Rom 11:22, Gal 5:19-21, Col 1:22-23, 1 Tim 4:1-2, Heb 3:12-14, 2:3, 11:6, Rev 2:4-5,21-23) and I'm sure it's the tip of the iceburg and yet despite having clear proofs that your ideas are bogus you do not repent of them.

Instead you choose to pick and fight with people instructing you in the truth so you won't have to face the truth. Your doctrine is trash, you've been shown and you won't admit that you are wrong. 1 John 1:9 is yours if you want it, if not 1 John 1:8 is YOU.

I'm not writing this because I want to feel I'm right, but in hope that you'll stop blaspheming God.
---Pharisee on 6/27/13


Mark I didn't say any of those things you said. What a phenomenon. Pro 26:4

Understand what I said:

I believed there was a God. (lots of non Christians do, I met one yesterday) That doesn't mean I had faith in one and neither did he. I didn't say I understood the gospel, I SAID I understood 1 thing about God. I also said I LOVED the idea of God that I believed (not the same as loving god in truth), alive to God by myself??? I won't even answer that stupidity. Created a love for Christ.. No, I said I loved a God I didn't know, not the same thing, in fact I thought it wasn't Christ. None of what you accuse me of saying is actually what I said, the reason you can't believe the truth I'm telling you is because you don't know truth.
---Pharisee on 6/27/13


Christan: The Lord invites everybody to come to Him (Matt.11:28) but He will not force anyone. Everyone has to choose always & everyday to be in God's love.
---Adetunji on 6/27/13


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---francis on 6/27/13


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MarkV: "[God] has to make you a child of God first in order for you to love Christ."

So, according to Mark, God only makes some children of God but wishes all the others to go to hell because he really wants them to go to hell. In other words, according to Mark, God could make all children of God but he denies them this.

Mark's doctrine of demons in action again.
---Marc on 6/27/13


"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" we have in Philippians 2:14-16. God commands this, "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation".

So, God considers this realistic. "He can easily succeed in doing this with us." > if we are not separate from the love of God, His love in us makes us "blameless and harmless, children of God without fault" . . . if His love is "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5), changing us into this. His love does not make us sinners, but "children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"!
---willie_c: on 6/27/13


Scott 1, you turned what I said into free will. You say,
MarkV congradulations you felt the need to repent. God did not make you repent nor did God force you to repent. But under the guide of the HS you repented. That is FREE WILL."
No one is free. They might think they are free but they are not. Unbelievers are slaves of sin, they might think they are free but their doing the desires of their father the devil.
Believers are not free either, they are slaves of righteousness. Why can you not see that? There is no such thing as a person been free of both. They are one or the other but never free. It is so simple. That is why there is children of wrath, and children of God. There is no such thing as a child of no one, free.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


Pharisee, you say stupid doctrines. Please stay with the program. My answers were concerning what you said, while you were lost. You suggest you created faith in your heart all by yourself.
You created a love for Christ all by yourself.
you became spiritually alive all by yourself. You understood the gospel all by yourself. You claim you had faith while you were lost because you already believed in God. So when you were an unbeliever, you were really a believer. What is it that you do not understand about Jesus words? He said with men it is impossible to be saved, you say it is possible. Why do you not explain the passages I gave you? Why do you get upset? Do you want to leave again?
---Mark_V. on 6/27/13


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"There is none who seeks after God" you say you did.

That's not what I said, I said I believed a God who loved everyone (first loved us) and therefore loved a God I didn't fully know and gave up finding him.

"There is no one who understands" you say you do

No I said I didn't understand and did not believe any religion represented the truth and for that reason i gave up. I will confess I understood one thing you still can't latch on to, God is Love. It's sad that even unbelievers are farther along in their understanding than you. The good news is if you repent of the stupid doctrines you believe you can know him. Read my post again, is there anything you read you don't insert different meanings into?
---Pharisee on 6/26/13


For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Does this sound like he's asking you?
This was written before you were even born!

Free-willers, yea! You chose to do this before you were even born.
And right again, God didn't command this of you. You chose!
God did not write this before the foundation of the world. You chose!

But let me write it again, who knows maybe you'll hear it.
As I live, saith the Lord!
Every knee shall bow to me!
And every tongue shall confess to God!

But this is just his way of asking. You know saying please!
You guys make me laugh!
Thank you!
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/26/13


//When God convicts you, you feel the need to repent.//

MarkV congradulations you felt the need to repent. God did not make you repent nor did God force you to repent. But under the guide of the HS you repented. That is FREE WILL.
---Scott1 on 6/26/13


Mark_V., really? Get real!
David first got him drunk so he would have relation with his wife to think the child was from him and not David.
But even in his drunkenness know he wasn't suppose to have relations with his own wife.

But, David who was sober didn't know it was wrong to have relation with another woman not his wife? David had several wives and concubines to chose from. No, he had to go after another man's wife.

Remember Nathan? The rich man and the poor man's ewe lamb parable?
David got mad alright, wanted death for the rich man because he didn't have pity!

Oh wait, hold off on that death sentence.
David realize HE WAS THE RICH MAN!

Just like a man to make excuses.
Just like a man.
---Nikki on 6/26/13


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1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron,

so YES anyone can reject God will to save them

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him],
---francis on 6/26/13


"God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth"

Speaks of God's revealing Himself to them, he does this willingly to all who believe because he is merciful. The verse says they are in the snare of the devil, rightly so, as man alienated from God is that trap (the fall) and there is one way out.

Some of the apostles preaching contain positive commands to "believe" to unbelievers. Why say this if no choice exists? You can say he was only talking to the elect foreknown of God but then I have to start crossing verses out of my Bible. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 says you got some work to do.
---Pharisee on 6/26/13


Pharisee, you claim, while dead in sin, a slave to unrighteousness, doing the desires of your father the devil, created a love for Christ out of your own free will. So claim to have right to oppose the Word of God. Jesus says,
He is the Author and finisher of our faith" you say you created that faith yourself.
"There is none who seeks after God" you say you did.
"There is no one who understands" you say you do, that God is wrong.
"We love Him because He first loved us" You say it's not true again. God lied.
"Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men this is impossible,.." You claim it is possible, you did so Jesus lied.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


did not Israel reject God?
1 Samuel 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God

2 Kings 17:15 And they rejected his statutes

Jeremiah 8:9 they have rejected the word of the LORD,

Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words

If the wordof God is the final authority, then YES ANYONE can reject God/ Christ
---francis on 6/26/13


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Well, I was going to post something about this question, but the moderator summed it up very well. Two words that most people can't seem to make coincide with predestination. God lays out our paths for us, but we still get to choose which ones to walk down.
---A_servant on 6/26/13


Romans 8:35 reads :

"shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

We(sinners) have no control over this list, However Paul gives us another list which we have control off and can separate us for God:

" Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warn you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal 5:19-21)
---Ruben on 6/26/13


Judas was just as called as the other 11 Apostles.

Christ did not deny him the gift of working miracles.

He did not drive him away from the table at the Mystical Supper.

Yet, Judas chose to fall away.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/26/13


He has to make you a child of God first in order for you to love Christ. FALSE

Your making something out a heathen's bondage to sin that it isn't. As I stated before as an unbeliever I believed there was a God but honestly didn't think any man properly testified of him. I loved a God I didn't know which is why ultimately I ended up being saved, I believed God's love for all. Our predisposition is important: "because they chose not to retain the knowledge of God..."

There is ONE free choice for man and that is to choose to believe God. Every other choice is one of bondage to sin. If your doctrine doesn't match reality or harmonize with the full testimony of scripture it's time to start over.
---Pharisee on 6/26/13


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Nikki, repentance comes from a convicted heart. When God convicts you, you feel the need to repent. God has to grant them repentance. Man on his own cannot convict his own heart.
"...God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will" (2 Tim. 2:25,26).
Read it carefully. God has to grant them repentance so they can escape from the devil who has them trapped. They don't know they are trapped and doing the desires of their father the devil (John 8:44). While they are in that condition God performs a supernatural act in drawing them to Himself (John 6:44).
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


Christan, the sinner has already rejected God. So are you ask can he keep rejecting God after being saved? Yes, just ask King David.

God anointed David! God picked him.
1 Samuel 16:13...and from that day on, the SPIRIT OF THE LORD RUSHED UPON DAVID.

But 2 Samuel ch12 David is King, he has Uriah killed and relations with his wife. Even their first born son dies because of his sin (even after David repents of his sin 2 Samuel 12:15-The Lord struck the child that the wife of Uriah had borne to David [18]- the child died).

How can this be? David is a chosen man! I thought he can't have freewill after he is saved??

REPENTANCE is an act of freewill as well.
David could have gone to hell if he chose NOT TO REPENT.
---Nikki on 6/26/13


Very good verses and very good points. John MacArthur who does believe in once saved always saved. Stated that those who are saved will always live in the love of GOD because they are saved. If JESUS is not their LORD then they are not saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/26/13


Moderator, there is no such thing as free will. Sinners thwart God's will because they do not belong to God. They are doing the desires of their father the devil. If God were their Father they would love Christ. But God is not their Father, the devil is. So they have no true love for Christ. That is why he cannot choose the Lord, because he has no true love for the Lord. God's word tells us,
"We love Him, because He first loved us" He has to make you a child of God first in order for you to love Christ. The lost do not become children of God on their own free will. Sorry, but your answer was wrong.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/13


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Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Romans 11:22

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:2

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel Colossians 1:23

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation Hebrews 2:3

if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
Hebrews 3:14
---IFclause on 6/25/13


Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. REVELATION 2:4-5

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death,... REVELATION 2:21-23

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. LUKE 13:3
---scripture on 6/25/13


A spiritual principle:
Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. Matthew 12:25

Absolute statement in the context of faith:
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12

A warning to believers:
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12
---undeniable_truth on 6/25/13


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