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Explain Acts 4:27-28

According to many, predestination is a lie and deception. If that's so, how do they explain and reconcile their "truth" with let's say Isaiah 53 and Acts 4:27,28 to start with. Are they implying the written Word is a lie and deception as it contradicts their "truth"?

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Rev 3:20 "if" indicates there is a choice. Open the door or don't, Rom 10:13 call or don't.
Rom 8:29, "conformed" means jointly formed/fashioned. This future physical conformity to Jesus' body of glory. It is a metamorphos not unlike what the butterfly goes through.
Rom 12:2 "conformed" is an inward conformity of character. This and "predestination" only deals ONLY with the Saved, Rom 12:1.
Phil 2:5 let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus
"Foreordained" means God knew before hand.
It was known before hand ("before the foundation of the world") that Jesus would be the sacifice for sin.

---Elder on 7/9/13

Trav, says,
"Hey the dots connect for those who seek and ask."
(Those who seek and ask are already born of God.
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God" The lost do not seek and ask God for anything).
---Mark_V. on 7/8/13

Mark why argue with the women? If scripture doesn't reveal....then men surely can't. Their husband should reveal to them.
Luk_6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth.
---Trav on 7/9/13

francis, you're still as lost as ever. You quote Revelation 3:20, Hebrews 3:15, 2 Peter 3:9 to try to justify that the man has the ability to hear and go to Christ by their own free-will? How lame can you get?

Over and over again, you have been shown explicit verses that those who will respond to the call of the Gospel are because they were drawn by God. Here read,

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Did Christ say that it's up to you to go to Him for eternal life? He declared, you must be drawn by the Father first. Where's your free-will? Now you know how erroneous your understanding is?
---christan on 7/9/13

Peter, no one is saved upon Birth, however upon the NEW BIRTH , we were all told Jesus will baptize with FIRE...a fire that burns away the chaff. A baptism into his Death that you can't stop. The REALITY of the Spirit mortifying the Flesh, the reality of being crucified with Christ FIRST, followed by the Power of His Resurrection Life. Where you can have that PERSONAL knowledge of Jesus Christ, as Paul said
" those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh".

Or Hebrews," to enter through the veil, that is to say His Flesh," or what Jesus said, "to eat my flesh and drink my blood."

Didn't you know Peter, there are always counterfeits. They all give themselves away eventually.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/13

Samuel, I believe you misunderstood my answer. Here is what I said,
The things you said were not in the Bible, are in the Bible. Then I gave you (1 Thess. 1:4.5). I do not know if you are saved Samuel. I am not condemning you. If the Word of God came to you in power and in the Holy Spirit, you are saved. If in word only, then you are not. It is not up to me at all, it is up to God, if you can hear, hear the words of Jesus
"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent" (John 6:29) Did you hear that? It is the work of God that you believe in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/9/13

You confuse "force" with "purposed".
---christan on 7/8/13
No confusion:
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

It is always up to us, whether we accept the will of God in our lives or not

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

yet many will perish and never come to repentance
---francis on 7/9/13

this free will stuff has gotten out of control. God is Holy and He can do whatever He desires but God put in His Holy Word a roadmap for our lives. one thing on that map is God will not force himself on anyone who is a sinner. He chose to do that. when we become His own, then He forces us one way or another. He will decipline His children.
---shira4368 on 7/8/13

"Because God never forces anyone against thier will" francis

"forces"? Does God need to "force" His way with the creature? That's how foolish your thinking is of God Almighty. You forget one critical thing about God, that He's Holy and Sovereign and as David, his faithful servant declared, "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased."

Isaiah concurred by writing, "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

You confuse "force" with "purposed".
---christan on 7/8/13

kathr4453 on 7/8/13: If it's not happening to you, YOU'RE not SAVED to begin with.

But Kathr, upon birth no-one is saved. You mean that God knows that in time who will be saved, and because God has decided it, you cannot escape Him?

Maybe that is what you mean?

Also, Kathr, you wrote 'being predestined to be conformed to His Image'

It sounds good, of course, but what do you really mean by that? Do you mean 'being like Him?' (probably not) or 'being like what He wants us to be like (more likely)

I just mean that when we write short comments, it is hard to be sure that everyone will take what we write in the same way

I just mean that misunderstandings happen here - I've seen a lot of them
---Peter9556 on 7/8/13

Samuel, everything you said was not in the Bible is in the Bible. The reason you do not see them is because you refuse to believe them. You just don't know if you are one of the elect, and you should know. Mark V

I know I am saved. But you say that what I said is not in the Bible. I said you must be Born Again to enter Heaven. You say here that this is not in the Bible. I said you must be convicted and changed by the HOLY SPIRIT. You copied I thess. 1:4,5).

Which is saying what I said but you said that is not in the Bible. How can you say that?

Now Jesus said Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Is this not in the Bible? Is this true?
---Samuelbb7 on 7/8/13

Kathr, you have no clue what Pedestination means at all. You have given three or four things that mean predestination to you. None were right. Study to be approved.
Second, The only persons conformed to the image of the Lord or those born of God. Unbelievers are not conformed to the image of God.

Nikki, it's wrong to say someone is not saved because we do not see the heart of others, that is true. But in the case of Kathr, you can be most sure that she is not. She might believe in free will like you, but she doesn't come close to been like you. She is not only a heretic, who teaches that Jesus Christ the Son became a Son through time, She also teaches many heretical views only Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons teach.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/13

Mark V: You commented to Nikki ' that there is another way into heaven by getting sprinkled with water '

However, the person best known for asserting this is Austine of Hippo, who was TOTALLY against free will, which you complain Nikki agrees with....

And the question of Baptism comes up in Acts at least once, in the jailer's household Acts 16:33, where we are never told that the family believed - we are only told that the jailer did - but the whole household was baptised.

So it is Biblical to baptise someone whom the Bible does not tell us believed, but whose father/husband did believe
---Peter9556 on 7/8/13

Hopefully Nikki will see that as a general statement of truth, and not directed at all to Nikki.

Nikki, that was not directed at you personally.

We can only be conformed to His Image through suffering, that is , the fellowship of HIS SUFFERING, being Made conformable to His death. Not just any kind of suffering, but a specific kind of suffering. If this is not active in your life, and you say you are saved, you here meaning anyone who claims salvation, you may want to check to see if you "really are" in the Faith.

If God has predestined us to be conformed to His Image, then there is no wiggling out of it.
Count it all JOY, because God has a purpose in it.....conforming you to the Image of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/13

kathr, be careful who you call not saved. you don't know if she is saved or not. God knows our hearts they are wicked. I didn't say that, God did. if she isn't saved, something you say here may hinder that for her. please I am not attacking you. I've been accused of that too.
---shira4368 on 7/8/13

If scripture tells us we were predestined to be conformed to His Image, it does not go against God.

Those NOW who have put their faith in Jesus Christ are predestined to be conformed to His Image. Why is that so hard to understand.

NO WHERE does scripture say you were predestined to be saved.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/13

Predestination goes against the nature of God." Lum

Really? How?
---christan on 7/8/13

Because God never forces anyone against thier will

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
---francis on 7/8/13

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"Predestination goes against the nature of God." Lum

Really? How? Isn't an awesome act of God that He decided with His Son that He will come into this fallen world to "die for the sins of His people"? Didn't the apostle Peter declared that Christ, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world"? Isn't "foreordained" the verb (used with object) for "predestined"?

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect, and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139:16

and you say it goes against God's nature that He predestines?
---christan on 7/8/13

Nikki, just to be sure here, I do not believe one has to work to keep their salvation, or even work to receive salvation. There is want is called the works of FAITH, vs works of the Law.

If the testing our faith WORKS PATIENCE, and letting patience have it's perfect WORK, that we be perfect and entire lacking nothing, we see that the verses before this show us what we need to do and OBEY in order for this promise to come to fruition. Now this is the sanctifying side of salvation, not the justifying side.

THIS is what predestination means, ...being predestined to be conformed to His Image, conformed to His death, through TRIALS and testing.

If it's not happening to you, YOU'RE not SAVED to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/13


This is what was so shocking and TELLING when MarkV stated, concerning James 1, that the ELECT do not need to be tried and have their faith tested. The tried and tested here is to bring one to maturity, and if he actually EXPERIENCED this, he would know that and testify to How God works in our lives CONFORMING US TO HIS IMAGE.

I bet Markv THOUGHT it meant, to test and see if your faith was real?

Well MarkV, you will never know how real it is or isn't until it's put to the test. Don't fear, if you have genuine faith, it will manifest through out ALL your life. Not just your so called "rebirthing" the old Adam, that believe me NEVER HAPPENS. Our old Adam is CRUCIFIED with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/13

Nikki, of course you agree with Kathr, she too believes in free will. Always trying to take the glory. You even believe people get saved without Jesus Christ, that there is another way into heaven by getting sprinkled with water and even those who do not hear the word of God get saved. Nonsense.

Trav, says,
"Hey the dots connect for those who seek and ask."
Those who seek and ask are already born of God. For,
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God" The lost do not seek and ask God for anything.

Kathr, just more talk with alot of words mixed together. You make no sense. No wonder you are so messed up.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/13

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Lum, your arguement is not good at all. God desires that no one sins, and everyone sins. God desires that everyone obey'e and not many do. God desires and God's decrees are very different.
"The decree of God is His purpose or determination with respect to future things." Scripture uses the singular number in (Rom 8:28, Eph 3:11).
"According to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph. 3:11) He is talking about an eternal purpose of God. And in (Rom. 8:28)
"And we know all things work for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose," those called according to His purpose.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/13

Isaiah 53 is prophesy and Acts 4:27 refers to the fulfillment of prophecy.

Predestination goes against the nature of God. In 1st Timothy 2 Paul wrote This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Why, after having predestined not all would be saved, would He desire their salvation? He would not.

God knew His creation would seek the desires of the flesh. It was foreseen and planned for before time began. The only thing God did that could be remotely construed as predestination is making obedience to His commandments or faith in Jesus the only ways man could fellowship with Him.

I have set before you life and death, choose life
---Lum_Michael_Patterson on 7/7/13

Kathr, I agree with you about Salvation to be sustained needs work on our part.

Nikki, We're you Born Again because the Father FORCED JESUS to make you a Child of God through force?---kathr4453 on 7/6/13

I disagree with that comment above.
But no one asks the boy if he wanted to be a Jew on the 8th day of his life.
As no one asked me if I wanted to be born again when I was baptized.

The Jewish boy and I can turn our backs on the gift given to us when we get older.
---Nikki on 7/7/13

markv, you have been arguing with me about free will and yet I just read your post and you know we have a choice in life what we do and the decisions we make. God does not make decisions for us.
---shira4368 on 7/7/13

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The gift from God is GRACE not faith. Every person has a measure of faith. The ability to believe in something. Thats what faith is. Man has a choice to put his faith in God or put that faith into a false god or science or what ever they choose. The only right place to put faith is in God who has given us GRACE as a free gift.
You misunderstand what that verse is talking about.
I didnt insult you, I said Im dusting my feet, It means Im finished with you since you refuse the truth. The same goes for Richard.
Kathr, keep on sis, one day God will open their eyes to the cult they are a part of, but then again, there is the itching ears thing, They only want to hear what is pleasing to them, not the truth.
---g on 7/7/13

Ezekiel 36:25 - Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean:...

36:26 - I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you:....
---RICHARDC on 7/6/13

Hey the dots connect for those who seek and ask.

Heb 8:10/Jer 31:33....tie/support those you posted also.

Nice work RichardC...36:26 was a refreshing witness.

(Scriptural witnesses are Always better than an opinion or mod doctrine:-)
---Trav on 7/7/13

Nowhere is faith even remotely suggested here as the gift of grace.

Romans 5:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
---kathr4453 on 7/7/13

If we are saved by grace through faith, how is it you say we are saved by faith through faith, if you insist faith is the gift of grace? This sentence would make no sense. You are actually saying you are saved by faith through grace.

Grace is the CROSS Markv, and to reduce GRACE to anything less is to insult the Spirit of GRACE, trample underfoot the Son of God, and make the BLOOD of the Covenant of no effect.

Your a blasphemer and false teacher.

According to you, FAITH , you call the gift of GRACE can't be insulted.

Now you call God a liar and re-write scripture.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/13

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the Spirit of the life of Christ IN YOU, was not in anyone in the OT. It is THIS SPIRIT that one has eternal life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. The Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST IN YOU is our salvation, first identifying with Jesus in death, being raised up together with Him a NEW CREATURE. The Spirit of the LIFE OF CHRIST, that is the RISEN CHRIST, was not available in the OT.

No one in the OT was changed from GLORY TO GLORY by the Spirit of The Lord Markv. THIS SPIRIT according to 2nd Cor 3 came with the NEW COVENANT, that came into effect ONLY AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.

Romans 6-8 again PROVE this fact.

It is/ was impossible to live under GRACE, and Law at the same time.

Galatians 2:20-21 make that PERFECTLY CLEAR.
---kath4453 on 7/7/13

Kathr, like you so many say stuff that means nothing. Here you say,
"So many say that faith is the grace Gift, and not Jesus death and resurrection as the GIFT OF GRACE."
Faith is the gift of God, the bible says that. It comes from God when God makes a sinner alive together with Christ (Eph. 2:1-10). Jesus Christ is full of grace. Jesus Christ is God. Grace flows from Him, in that He gives without merit.
What you are doing is twisting words from Scripture around to argue some point or another. In fact to be negative about everything. What you need is the grace of God. Today is the day for salvation for many, hope you are one of them.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/13

g, why use insults? You say,
In the OT, no one was INDWELLED with the HS."

1. Pharaoh himself recognized the indwelling of the Spirit in Joseph (Gen. 41:38).
2. The Spirit was clearly said to be in Joshua, and this reason for God's choosing him (Numbers 27:18).
3. The Spirit is also said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8: 5:11-14: 6:3).
4. The New Testament reveals that the Spirit in the prophets gave them discernment and wisdom (1 Peter 1:11).
So before you accuse me, you should read the Bible, instead of spreading lies. you say,
"The HS could be upon them but not in them." You lied about the truth. The Baptist was endwelled with the Spirit from his mothers womb (luke 1:15).
---Mark_V. on 7/7/13

kathr, satan meant it for evil but God meant it for good. that is in the bible but I heed to research where it is. don't have time before church today. rape is a crime that must be punished. this has nothing to do with the will of God.
---shira4368 on 7/7/13

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So many say that faith is the grace Gift, and not Jesus death and resurrection as the GIFT OF GRACE.

We do see Romans 5 CLEARLY say the GIFT OF GRACE is the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS through Jesus Christ. No where in any scripture is FAITH said to be the Gift of Grace.

Jesus came full of grace and truth. Are you saying Jesus came full of faith and truth?

How can someone INSULT the Spirit of GRACE, as Hebrews states?

1:, by insulting FAITH
2:, or by insulting the Gift of God, Jesus Christ JUST AS THE REMAINING WORDS IN HEBREWS 10 STATE.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/13

G - He went to his own and Refuse him?

Roman 11:8 - Just as it is written God gave them a spirit of Stupor ,eyes to see and ears to hear not, to this very day.

Ephesian 2:8 - For by Grace you are saved Though Faith, and Not of yourselves it is a Gift of God,

{ G - I been using this verse alot lately
Faith comes from God , It is a Gift, By Grace, Not by any works that we do, But by hearing the word of God }
---RICHARDC on 7/6/13

You do realize that God is speaking in FUTURE tense in those verses don't you?

He says he will. Then his people refused what the one sent to do just that. His name is Jesus Christ their messiah. He went to his own and his own refused him.

But no where does it say that the Holy Spirit indwelled anyone in the OT, It describes things that will happen to cause us to walk upright before God. If they had the HS in them, hey would not have needed the Law to tell them what was right and wrong.
The HS does not make you have faith in God. You either have it in God or in something else. But all have faith in something, the Bible says this. some just have it in the wrong things.
---g on 7/6/13

Ezekiel 36:25 - Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. 36:26 - I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you: I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, 36:27 - I will put My spirit in you and cause you to walk in my Statutes, and will keep my judgments and do Them,

2 Corinthains 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new Creature: Old things have passed away, Behold all things are become new,
---RICHARDC on 7/6/13

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Nikki, We're you Born Again because the Father FORCED JESUS to make you a Child of God through force? These are what I call ILLEGITIMATE children, just as Hebrews describes. So they believe God FORCED Jesus to love some and hate others.

Why would God need to discipline any who always do His will, good or bad, because they have no free will to obey or disobey? Like Markv said, the elect don't need to be tried and tested, because they are the elect.

They refuse to be tried because it takes FAITH in trials. If perhaps they actually were tried and tested they would Know what REAl faith is, and prove it takes WORK ON THEIR PART to endure and obey.
---kathr4453 on 7/6/13

Has anyone ever seen the movie Sophie's Choice? Horrible wasn't it?

And this is the same mentality they want to tell you is the same mentality of God, that God MADE Jesus pick and chose who would live and who would die.

This isn't the only thing they have in common with this Nazi mentality. The SUPERIORITY complex that comes with it that ONLY THEY are regarded as above anyone else, sending all else to the gas chambers.

All cults have their own elite secret society club. The JW's, Mormons....and these are no different.

They are a cult through and through spreading hate and elitism, calling it God's sovereign right....or Hitler's sovereign right whatever.
---kathr4453 on 7/6/13

In the OT, no one was INDWELLED with the HS. The HS could be upon them but not in them.
It had not been given to be IN us until Christ came and died on the cross and gave it to man. This happened in Acts. Or have you not read the day of Pentecost? I guess not.
You are truly confused and believe some really confusing things.
Do you reject that God gives life to all things as he says he does? With out God nothing would be.
Dusting my feet since you refuse the REAL truth. Go ahead and stick to your cult because that is what it is.
---g on 7/6/13

Also did some man rape some woman against the woman's will to conceive Francis? That's what Christan seems to be saying.---kathr4453 on 7/5/13

I am not speaking about any persons, but you do know that idiot Republican is wrong?
You can conceive a baby from rape.
Rape means without permission.

Many babies are conceived from rape.
---Nikki on 7/6/13

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Kathr, what happens is that you get worse everyday. You don't know what to argue on so you make up this whole story about the seed of man, and include Christ. You are going bannanas again. Why not write the part you oppose so that people can answer you? All you do is talk and complain, and whin, and talk again making up stories that come to your mind. Then jump on anyone for no good reason. Something is very wrong with you lady.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/13

Nikki, re- read Christan's statement, asking Francis if he had any say so in his birth. Well, didn't the Father AND the Word have say so concerning Jesus / the Word human Birth? So Christan's analogy here is so off base.

If we as man know rape is WRONG, and we being created after the image of God, that is conscience etc, why is it wrong for man to rape, but OK for God to force Himself on anyone they want to call God's sovereign right?
The perversion of the word SOVEREIGN here is that they can make up anything they want and try to beat you over the head with GOD'S SOVEREIGN RIGHT.

Francis father had every sovereign right to bring Francis in the world : 1) if Francis Mother contented. No, we're NOT the Virgin Mary.
---kathr4453 on 7/6/13

Nikki, And you say Christan received seed from a man? How exactly?

Also did some man rape some woman against the woman's will to conceive Francis? That's what Christan seems to be saying.

Not only did the man not consult Francis to see if he wanted to be born...did the man consult the woman, or just plant that seed based on the man's sovereign will alone?
---kathr4453 on 7/5/13

So now we are all the virgin Mary, having a seed planted in us? OH MY GOSH...again Blasphemy.---kathr4453 on 7/5/13

No, because she is called 'virgin' for a reason.
No seed from a man.

No connection to Christan statement and the one you posted.
---Nikki on 7/5/13

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Did YOU agree with your father that he should plant his seed inside your mother's womb to give birth and life to you? Did you?


So now Christian is teaching that a seed or THE SEED, CHRIST was planted in something somewhere to give life to him?

So now we are all the virgin Mary, having a seed planted in us? OH MY GOSH...again Blasphemy.

Is this how you believe you were "Born Again"? Oh this gets worse and worse.

1st Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

so either you believe ALL DIED in Adams fall OR YOU died to Adam 1 when you received Jesus Christ death to yourself then being Quickened, New Birthed IN THE RISEN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 7/5/13

"We must be born Again to be a Christian. We must be convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT to become a Christian." samuelbb7

Really? The Holy Spirit has to "persuade" you? Where on earth did you get that from?

Ask yourself this simple question, and this does not even pertain to spiritual regeneration we're talking about. Did YOU agree with your father that he should plant his seed inside your mother's womb to give birth and life to you? Did you?

I don't even want to get into the discussion of spiritual regeneration if you cannot answer: did you choose to be born into this world? If you did not, what gives you the idea you can choose to be born of the Spirit?
---christan on 7/5/13

g, do you want to talk about the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? We can do that. If you want to talk about the Holy Spirit after Pentacost, we can do that too. Believers in the Old Testament were justified by faith. What you have to understand and which you do not, is the works of the Holy spirit. When the Spirit makes someone alive together with Christ. When the Holy Spirit endwells believers with the gifts for the purpose of ministry, when the Holy Spirit baptizes the belivers into One body in Christ, When the Holy Spirit seals the believers forever. Those are functions of the Holy Spirit. In the Old T. the Spirit endwelled some belivers, came upon some believers, empower many believers, and was in some individuals like John the Baptist.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/13


What you stated is in the Bible, its not meant as you & Christian keep trying to pass it off as. You can't pick out of the Bible & forget the rest of it.

God created every single person on the planet. He is the reason they are alive. God sent Christ to reconcile MANKIND back to himself. The Bible says some will refuse that reconciliation. If man couldnt turn to God without the Holy Spirit in them, Many in the OT wouldnt have repented and turned BACK to God like they did.
The Holy Spirit was not given to dwell in man UNTIL Christ came.
You need to check up on what reconciliation really means and what the job of the Holy Spirit is in the OT and the NT.
Predestination is real, it just isn't what YOU say it is.
---g on 7/4/13

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Samuel, everything you said was not in the Bible is in the Bible. The reason you do not see them is because you refuse to believe them. You just don't know if you are one of the elect, and you should know. The Word of God, must have come to you in word only and not in power and the Holy Spirit, otherwise you would know.

"Knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance.." (1 Thess. 1:4,5).
You see, only those who are elect by God know they are elect by God once they are saved. The Word came to them in power and in the Holy Spirit with much assurance. You don't believe it. What can anyone do? Nothing.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/13

We must be born Again to be a Christian. We must be convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT to become a Christian. As mentioned many times here predestined does not mean what Mark and Christian to make their form of Predestination work add limited atonement, irrestiable grace, and unconditional election. None of which can be shown by the Bible. They do not try to answer the verses that show GOD wants all to be saved. They just keep saying the same words over and over.

GOD is GOD he can give man free will. We cannot tell Him that cannot do that.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/3/13

What Christan cannot SEE, being blind, is that the 4 scriptures concerning predestination, 2 in Romans, 2 in Ephesians say NOTHING about anyone being predestined to salvation, or damnation, or sin or anything of the kind. They see the word predestined and that is ALL they see, then adding their own understanding to it.

OT saints were NOT predestined to become adopted sons through Jesus Christ. Only the CHURCH, also known as the CHURCH of the FIRSTBORN as Hebrews clearly defines as a separate entity .

Because they are so steeped in the false doctrine of Covenant Theology, or Covenant Calvinism, they are BLIND to the CHURCH, the BRIDE of Christ, His Body as being a unique place and entity apart from Israel.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/13

Elder, your comment wreaks of hypocrisy and unbelief in the Word, just like some here who foolishly challenge the Sovereignty of God in predestining mankind to eternal life and death according to His will and purpose.

To answer your question about 1 Corinthians 5:17, read this and let the Word of God convict you of who He truly is, "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

While God Almighty tells us how much He hates sin, guess what, does sin operate outside of His Holy Will and Purpose? Well, not according to the above verse from Isaiah 46:11.
---christan on 7/2/13

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God has predestined us "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He may be the firstborn among many brethren," Paul says in Romans 8:29.

And 1 John 4:17 says "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

But there are "predestination" people who have nothing to do with talking about how we are becoming "as He is" "in this world". And there are plenty of "free will" people who are not choosing to be "as He is" "in this world". Instead, they only are arguing beliefs, being decoyed elsewhere!

Why not talk about how to become "as He is" "in this world"? Why is this not worth more of their attention?
---willie_c: on 7/2/13

Markv, I have stood by what I say on this blog. You say I keep going back. Yes, I keep trying to help people see the truths in Gods word. I have never said or even hinted that we can control God. You are the one guilty of a false doctrine. You take one or two verses on what you say but I have shown you over and over the same truth. You reject that God wants to save every person in the world. God does not force anyoney to believe in Him.
---shir4368 on 7/2/13

Christan, we see in Isaiah 53 it was Christ's death that was predestined. We also see Genesis 3:15 first announced the coming Messiah.

You confuse Prophecy concerning Jesus Christ and God's plan of redemption with YOURSELF. Problem is Christan, I see no where in Scripture "Christan" was predestined to be saved. I see no scripture concerning YOU PERSONALLY, and any prophecy concerning YOU personally. So tell us, where do you draw the line as to what prophecy you choose to believe and what prophecy you choose not to believe?

Your own denying of certain facts shows you are deceived when it comes to truth, yet have some nerve using certain scriptures to prove "you" were predestined.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/13

Shira, you keep going back to, "if we allow God" still giving the power of man over God. Nowhere are we told we have to give God permission.
When a believer is saved by God, by grace through faith, we are told,
"For we (believers) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
It nowhere says, that man has to give God permission. What it does say is that God prepared us believers beforehand that we should walk in them. Now read the New Covenant given by God,
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues and you will keep My judgments and do them" (Eze. 36:27).
---Mark_V. on 7/2/13

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Christian...ECT...ECT, read I Cor 5:17 and explain what "If" means in this verse. That should answer your question.
Did God want the man in I Cor 5 to cohabitate with his fathers wife? Was that God's work and desire or was this man exercising his own will against the revealed will of God? Did God punish Israel when they rebelled? What did God say in Isa 1:18-20?
Claiming sinless perfection is a sin, I John 1:10.
---Elder on 7/2/13

shira, shira, shira... "no we can't change ourselves but God can if we allow Him." That's your problem! Such concept of salvation is an abomination to the Lord. Please show us from the Holy Bible where it says "we allow Him" to work in us?

Scripture contradicts that very wicked idea you have about God seeking permission from the sinner. Instead we are told explicitly, "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. " 1 Corinthians 1:9, "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:24

Meaning, God will have His way with His people, period. Did Christ seek Saul's permission to be converted?
---christan on 7/1/13

mark, mark, mark....when we are saved, God starts molding us the way He wants us to be. our flesh is always in conflict with the Spirit. we war with evil and satan every day. your flesh is no better than mine. no we can't change ourselves but God can if we allow Him. don't you know the difference in milk for the new Christian and meat for us old folks?
---shira4368 on 7/1/13

Shira, the condition of the lost,
Can he change his own nature? No
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:38).
Can he create faith in Christ? No.
"Jesus Christ is the Author and finisher of our faith" Faith is a gift of God
Can he make himself alive to Christ? No,
"God has to make a sinner alive together with Christ" (Eph. 2:1-20).
Can he create a love for Christ? No,
"We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
Can he understand and seek after God? No.
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks after God" (Rom. 3:11).
---Mark_V. on 7/1/13

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why would anyone question God? Gods ways are not our ways and God thoughts are not our thoughts. the plan of salvation is so simple yet so complex. anyone can get deep into this subject but all we need to know is Christ died for our sin.
---shira4368 on 6/30/13

"...if GOD caused them to murder JESUS and they had no choice in the matter. Would that not be GOD murdering himself. Since he is responsible for all evil." Samuelbb7

Paul wrote these very words two thousand years ago,

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Amazing, isn't it? Still usable today for you.
---christan on 6/29/13

Samuel, every Christian should know the condition of the lost. Many make the sinner more powerful then God.
Adam's failure in the covenant God made with him directly impacts our present condition. His fall brought death to all men and resulted in this creation being cursed. Because Adam sinned, his guilt was imputed to us and we inherited his corrupt nature. The broken nature of the covenant of works demonstrates that we cannot keep God's law to earn life everlasting. In Adam's fall, we died. Sin came to all, and with sin came death.
Men, in and of himself cannot remove that curse. Marc calls it a doctines of devils that God has to come to the rescue. He doesn't want God interfering with his decisions while he is in bondage to the devil.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/13

Samuel, you said,
Well Christian if GOD caused them to murder JESUS and they had no choice in the matter. Would that not be GOD murdering himself."
It was in the plan of God that Christ should come into the world, and that He should suffer, that He should die a violent death, and thus make atonement for His people. God the Father simply permitted sinful men to sinfully lay that burden upon His Son, and overruled their acts for His own glory in the redemption of many. Those who crucified Jesus Christ acted in perfect harmony with the freedom of their own sinful natures and were alone responsible for their sin. God made the wrath of man to praise Him. The humanity side of Jesus died and rose again, God never dies.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/13

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(Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world),
but was manifest in these last times for you,
(Who by him do believe in God),
that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God.

I'm so sorry it's just that I am so simple.
Please help me to understand.

God, established or prearranged, unalterably!
Christ to die for the sins of the world.
Even before the foundation of the world was even (laid!)

So shouldn't I be thanking God for man sinning?
Otherwise Christ would have had to die for nothing!

How can Christ be foreordained to die for sin?

If there was even a smallest change man wouldn't sin?
Thanks, Peace
---TheSeg on 6/29/13

Well Christian if GOD caused them to murder JESUS and they had no choice in the matter. Would that not be GOD murdering himself. Since he is responsible for all evil.

Why did not GOD make us not able to sin? Since by your doctrine we are basically robots. Why did GOD cause us to sin like the LDS teach?

I have to incorporate every verse you present into my understanding of GOD. But you just reject the verses that you do not agree with and do not answer them.

If GOD created you for perdition you would not know it. So how can you be sure he did not?
---Samuelbb7 on 6/28/13

Gordon, in the court of God, your unbelief in His Word is guilty as "hell". You are saying here that Isaiah 53 has no relation to Acts 4:27,28? It's like saying Genesis to Revelation has no relation to each other.

Isaiah 53 prophesies about the coming Messiah that was to die for the "sins of His people". Acts 4:27,28 explicitly tells us that this was God's plan and that He purposed not only the death of His Son but those who brought this upon Him. Clearly and explicitly upholding the doctrine of predestination.

Wrap your faithless heart around this: are those involve in the execution getting away with murder? They're not! They'll be held accountable for that very wicked and evil act, period.
---christan on 6/28/13

"If it were true God would be asking us to do something that he cannot do which is love our enemies"---Scott1

So simple and yet they miss it somehow.

God is no hypocrite.
---Jasheradan on 6/28/13

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---Mark_V. on 6/28/13

and christian

The problem with your specific interpretation of christianity is that God loves some and God hates some. That is completely false. If it were true God would be asking us to do something that he cannot do which is love our enemies. However, God is love and he never ask us to do what he has not done. Yes he knows that people will not be saved by the blood of Jesus, but that does not mean that he does not love them and purses them, like Hosea. Do you love your children even when they rebel against you. God is the same way.
Acts 4:27-28 This means God knows the choices we are going to make but still loves us and interjects His plan into our world, but it does not mean God hates.
---Scott1 on 6/28/13

Let me give you an example. King Nebuchadnezzar invaded Israel to gain wealth. That was his choice, if you could ask him that is what he would say. Why did God use Nebuchadnezzar, to punish and correct Israel. So did God's plan work, yes. God's divine plan worked in conjunction with Nebuchadnezzar's will. Same happend in Acts. The religious leaders and politicians wanted to stay in power so they killed Jesus, God want a sacrifice to wash away sin.
---Scott1 on 6/28/13

Why have we not heard from those who belive in predestination, how they know for sure that they are predestined to be saved,a nd not predestined to be lost?
---francis on 6/28/13

Christan, Are you kidding? What in the World do those Verses from ISAIAH 53 and ACTS 4:27-28 have to do with the version of uber-Calvinism that you keep expounding here on C-Net?

For starters, ISAIAH 53 is an O.T. Prophecy of the Messiah's Sufferings for the Salvation of whosoever will.

And, ACTS 4:27-28 shows how GOD predetermined Yahushua's rejection by His people and of His Sacrifice.

They give no evidence, let alone any textual proof, of your choice-brand of "Predestination" of "GOD deliberately creating any human being just for the sole purpose of damning them to Eternal Torments.

Instead, you present a very classic example of trying to fit round Scripture Verses into a squared doctrine of demons.
---Gordon on 6/28/13

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Pharisee, you even believe your own lies, here you say,
"God is a much grander picture emerges, a God of infinite grace and mercy comes into focus, not a lazy megalomaniacal sadist who hates and lives to destroy the crowning achievement of his creation: mankind."
He destroyed mankind with water once. Women and children of His creation. He had the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and the Jebusites all slaughtered, women and children, they never even got a chance for salvation for they never had the Law. He also had the angel of the Lord destroy all firstborn. He does with His creation what He so pleases.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13

Bro. Christan, it is the same thing for the past four years I have been here. They argue, talk alot, complain alot, whin alot, speak of Calvin, Hyper Calvinism, anything they can think of, but never can they explain or give one passage where God told mankind He was giving them free will. Not one passage.
Just like Jerry, who claimed God told us to keep Saturday Sabbath. He too could not find one passage where God said such things. Or that He started creation on Sunday and rested Saturday. Not one passage. They believe in something so hard, they reject the Truth. Jesus was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world. How can they believe that God didn't know man was going to sin? Such foolishness.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/13

Thanks Therese,

it's a very narrow view of God being portrayed by the hyper calvinist, and while what they say is true, it's only part of the truth, when both views are reconciled to the reality of who God is a much grander picture emerges, a God of infinite grace and mercy comes into focus, not a lazy megalomaniacal sadist who hates and lives to destroy the crowning achievement of his creation: mankind.

If God has really been revealed to this bunch they'd not have to imagine him being as they are, indifferent, unconcerned, egotistical goblins with no inherent love for humanity.

God is Love, you can learn that from a 3 year old and anything God is, he is to it's fullest measure. HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God almighty!
---Pharisee on 6/27/13

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