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Is God All Knowing

Does everything in this world from time beginning happen outside of the purpose and will of God or did it happen randomly and caught God by surprise? What does Scriptures truly say? Anyone?

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'If He (John) was reporting their comments there would be quotation marks'- Warwick.

Not so. John 5:18 says, 'For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him, not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.'

Notice John also reports the Jews complaint that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath. Yet there are no quotation marks where John reports the Jews complaint about Sabbath breaking. Neither are there quotation marks at 5:18 for the Jews wrong conclusion that Jesus was making himself God. John is reporting, not quoting.

Both the apostate Jews then and trinitarians now draw wrong conclusions that Jesus is 'God'.
---David8318 on 8/12/13


'Do we have 2 Saviours...?- Warwick.

Judges 3:9 uses the same Hebrew word for 'savior' (moh-shi'a) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 and is applied to Othniel, an Israelite Judge. But that didn't make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

Titus 1:3,4 speaks of 'God our Savior', and then of both 'God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior'. Evidently, both are saviors. Just as 'savior' being applied to Othniel didn't make him Jehovah God, neither does 'savior' being applied to Jesus automatically make him Jehovah.

As Jude 25 states, 'to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord'. Jehovah God is our Savior "through" Jesus Christ.
---David8318 on 8/12/13


'Of course He can do nothing by Himself as He is one with the Father'- Warwick.

This presupposes in as much as 'the Son can do nothing unless he sees what the Father is doing', it must also be that 'the Father can do nothing unless he sees what the Son is doing'.

But John 5:19 does not teach this trinitarian falsehood that, 'the Father can do nothing by himself, he can do only what he sees his Son doing', which is what Warwick presupposes if the Son 'is one with' the Father.

No where in scripture does the Son take precedence over the Father. It is always what the Father does... then his Son follows. The Son does not share equality with 'God the Father'. The Son does nothing unless he sees what the Father does.
---David8318 on 8/12/13


Francis, Jesus equated the paralytic's condition with 'sin' at Mark 2:9, 'Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?- NIV.

You say 'Jesus being God forgave him all his transgression against the Law of God'. So you evidently believe it was the paralytic's sin 'against the Law of God' that made him a paralytic. This cannot be the case as all Israel under the Law would have been paralytic. The 'sin' Jesus forgave was not sin against the Law.

It is the sin inherited from Adam that causes sickness and death that Jesus- in the act of curing the paralytic- forgave. (Ro.5:12)

Jesus ('the Lamb') has the God given authority to forgive such sins- Jo.1:29.
---David8318 on 8/12/13


'Please think about it'... adetunji (8/11/13).

Let's quote Luke 10:22 in full.

'All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him'- NIV.

Note the first sentence in the verse... 'All things have been committed to me by my Father.' If the Son were 'God' or shared equality with 'God the Father', then there would be no reason to 'commit anything' to the Son by the Father because they share equality.

Perhaps if adetunji spent more time thinking about scripture himself rather than selectively misquoting scripture, may be he would see the error of the trinity myth.
---David8318 on 8/12/13




David 1 Timothy 4:10 tells us "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe."

However the same God, in Titus 1:4 tells us "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour."

Now thinking JW wise God's word must be in error as these two Scriptures clearly say we have two Saviours. Do we have 2 Saviours David, or do both these Scriptures speak of the one and only Saviour God?
---Warwick on 8/11/13


"Without ever providing a...solution for the philosophical problem. Nice trick." Marc

So where exactly was the "solution" that Marc provides for the simple "problem" that David8318 has presented? 'If the Son doesn't know everything that the Father knows, how can they be equal?'

It's a fair question.

Marc (likely) exhausts the word limit in his long-winded and critical response to David but fails to attempt to present a simple "solution" or answer while, at the same time, accusing David of doing that very thing. Do we see a pattern here?

Is that a Falwell/Hagee, Christian Zionist "trick"?
---scott on 8/11/13


David8318: Luke 10:22 ...no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father, and who the Father is, but the Son... From where cometh the knowledge into your JW sect that the Son is not equal to the Father {contrary to Jesus' words}? Pls think about it.
---Adetunji on 8/11/13


---David8318 on 8/10/13
I do not believe that Jesus granted him eternal life on the spot because the bible does not say that. It says Jesus forgave his sins


However, Jesus did grant instant eternal life to the thief on the cross

Now this paralytic had done nothing against Jesus personally that Jesus should forgive him, and one man forgives another

But Jesus being God forgave him all his transgression against the Law of God, something which only God can do
---francis on 8/11/13


David, John 5:18 has John commenting on why the Jews wished to Kill Jesus, not reporting what they said. If He was reporting their comments there would be quotation marks. John was well aware that by calling God "My Father " Jesus was making Himself "equal with God." That Jesus claims equality with the Father occurs again in verse 23 where He claims equal honour with the Father. Is any man or angel due equal honour with the Father? No!

We also must consider that the Son of God is not independent from the Father nor from the Holy Spirit. As Jesus says-the Father and I are one-one in substance and thought. Of course He can do nothing by Himself as He is one with the Father. God is one.
---Warwick on 8/11/13




David,

A man comes to Jesus and, addressing him as a mere man, calls him "good teacher". Jesus asks him why he called him 'good' because, as Jesus states, only God is good.

David, you would agree that we men are not good. So, tell me, David, is Jesus, the man, good or is he not? (Please don't cherry pick and thus avoid the conversation.)
---Marc on 8/11/13


Brother Christan, the answer is no. Nothing happens outside the will of God. We are told about God,
"He "upholdeth all things by the Word of His power" (Heb. 1:3).
"My council shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure " (Isa.46:10).
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35).
"For of Him, and through Him,and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever" Amen" (Rom. 11:36).
---Mark_V. on 8/11/13


One Elohyim: Jn1:1-15

He Spoke - His Word
He performs - His Word
In Spirit and In Truth

What Elohyim has spoken unto this world/ion/realm - He Will do with/in this world/ion/realm as Immanuel (God With us) as Ysha (YHVh Savior)

Jn 5:18 "Therefore the Jews[those that resided in Judea not the House of Judah] sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
---char on 8/10/13


Elohyim Exist Spirit and Truth

*(The son can do nothing of Himself)--- Y'sha is the Very Word that "Was" spoken.

* (what He seeth the Father do)---In Spirit -- realm to realm- eion to eion-world with/in world

*"when you see Me you see the Father, for I and the Father are one."

*Elohyim In Spirit Confirmed-testified performs His Word sworn by --Himself (Is 45:23)

Heb.11:3 "Though faith we understand that the (worlds') (were framed) by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Immanuel (God with us) (Ysha-YHVH Savior)

Is 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the Word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness...
---char on 8/10/13


'If you do not see Christ as equal with God, then you are calling Jesus Christ a liar!'- trey.

But it was not Jesus who claimed equality with God. It was the Jews who were trying to kill him. Jesus defended himself against this false charge of equality with God in the next verse:

'Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself, he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.'- Jo.5:19.

Jesus defends himself against this blasphemous charge of equality with God by again revealing his subservient role in God's arrangement. The Jews, like trinitarians, were drawing wrong conclusions.
---David8318 on 8/10/13


'JESUS... could forgive sins is God'- francis.

You refer to the account where Jesus heals the paralytic- Mark 2:9? Some began to erroneously reason in their hearts that Jesus was God, and Jesus had to correct them? I believe this is the account you refer.

If Jesus were 'God' and forgave the paralytic of his sin- do you believe the paralytic received eternal life on the spot? 'The wages sin pays is death'- Ro.6:23. If the paralytic is forgiven by God of his sin, then he no longer receives death as a wage.

Jesus had not yet carried away the sin of mankind through his death. However, having the God-given ability to cure someone of a sickness resulting from inherited Adamic sin, Jesus could rightly say 'your sins are forgiven'.
---David8318 on 8/10/13


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God knows when the next deadly plane crash is going to be. Does God cause the plane to crash?

God having all foreknowledge does not mean God is the cause of all plan crashes

god knowing who will accept him, and who will reject him, is not the same as saying that God made some with the purpose fo rejecting him

How here is the irony. Those on CN who claim to be specially selected by God have rejected His Laws

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children
---francis on 8/10/13


One God creator of all worlds
Heb.11:3 "Though faith we understand that the (worlds') (were framed) by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
From the sons of Adam-linage to the Messiah - Ysha (God Savior)
Appointed/established in/throughout His Word without change
Elohyim appointed/established - His Word mortal- to dwell light of Elohyim will come dedicated- His death brings the despairing comfort.
Heb:Adam(man), Seth (appoint-set in place), Enosh (mortal-man), kenan (nest-dwelling place), Mahalalel (light of God), Jared (comes down), Enoch (dedicate), Methuselah (his death brings),Lamech (despair), Noah (comfort drawn from water)

Correction last post:Jn1:1-14
---char on 8/10/13


Marc,

Your are correct! God is love. He is the definition of love. He is the epitomy of love. I believe he is the only true source of love.

But, you should also know...

Our God is The God Of Love! 2nd Cor 13:11.

Just trying to give you a little clarity on who God is.
---trey on 8/10/13


God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all equal in glory, power, knowledge, wisdom, majesty, etc.
John5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

If you do not see Christ as equal with God, then you are calling Jesus Christ a liar!
---trey on 8/10/13


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Elohyim is All Seeing

ONE God - different dimensions/worlds/realms/eions Jn11:1,2Kings 6:17,Ecc 3:15, Rev12:4,Job38:7

Elohyim has freely given His Word-Ysha: Precepts, teachings, principles, guidelines, instructions etc
Hebraism: Express the Function or the role not the appearance

Zech14:9 His name is (One-ehhad)expresses the Full function
Elohyim (ehhad-unity)- those that
are separated come together in ehhad/unity

Zech 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Deut6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
---char on 8/9/13


Poor, poor David. You do relish a good negative attack on what you perceive to be weak theological points of your enemies but without ever providing a JW solution for the philosophical problem. Nice trick, though not even worth a Pass for a university essay (i.e. a big fat F.) For example, you do believe that God is Love, yet, serially decline to tell us "pagans" how your God can love if he was alone in eternity. I know it's hard because Brooklyn hasn't prepared a rote answer for you, but maybe, just this once, you can think independently from your NY masters and rise above the elementary level.
---Marc on 8/9/13


Clearly, neither the Son nor the HS are God.
---David8318 on 8/9/13
neither the Son nor the HS are The Father

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now in the entire bible the only one who is manifested in the flesh is .......JESUS, who because he could forgive sins is God
---francis on 8/9/13


'No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father'- Matthew 24:36 (NIV).

On the matter of 'Is God All Knowing', certainly Jesus clearly did not know issues his Father, Jehovah only knew.

Which clearly makes the 'triune Godhead' not all knowing or omniscient. But of course, there is no 'triune Godhead'. The trinity dogma is a pagan myth, with roots in pagan Egyptian mythology- 'gods incarnate' and 'men-gods' etc...

Jesus didn't know the 'day or hour' simply because he was not God. And what about the holy spirit? If the HS is part of the same 'God' as the Father, why does Jesus not say that it knows what the Father knows?

Clearly, neither the Son nor the HS are God.
---David8318 on 8/9/13


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David, you made this quote,
"the Vatican's CN representative pushes the RCC polytheist idea that God must have had other God's to experience 'love'."
What representative are you talking about? At least put down who it was and where you got it from. Just saying something does not make it Truth.
He doesn't experience Love, God's nature is love, and displays that love for His own children. I never heard anyone say what you quoted.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/13


Marc, on another thread I noticed Scott the JW had spat the dummy, trotting out a list of epithets you had used to describe him and his nature. It says much that he has felt the need to keep such list! However I am offended Marc as Scott has attributed a few of my epithets to you. Has he no shame?
---Warwick on 8/8/13


Marc, the Vatican's CN representative pushes the RCC polytheist idea that God must have had other God's to experience 'love'.

This is Marc's RCC polytheist bent.

Vatican apostates have done well to indoctrinate Marc and many others with their limited understanding of the word 'love' (1Jo.4:8)- that all three within the 'triune Godhead' must have been co-equal and co-eternal to have shared and experienced 'love' together and for eachother.

A plethora of 'God's' expressing love for eachother in an eternity past. How quaint. But indicative of the polytheism rife within Marc's fallacious reasoning.
---David8318 on 8/8/13


//---Bryan on 8/7/13//

Well stated brother.



Shalom
---char on 8/8/13


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Yep he is all knowing cause there is nothing done with out his word in it some how. Be it for good or be it for evil his word is in it. satan steals it to use for evil and some people stand on it for life. It's not that he is all knowing every thing is made by his word. So what ever you do will be by his word. Life or death some word will do either. Which will you choose?
---Bryan on 8/7/13


Scott1, nowhere did I say got cause man to sin, or made them sin. God controls sin. When something happens by a sinner, God controls how far that sin will go. Everything and everybody is in the hands of God. God is the restrainer of sin. If He so wanted He could do away with sin altogether, but it is not time for Him to do that. He allows it and permits it to go on. God is long-suffering toward us who believe or those who will believe. He waits for them to be saved before He breaks forth in judgment. God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders, and the breaking of the Law waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/13


MarkV claims about God that "He is a God of love".

Scripture doesn't declare this. It says that He IS love. That's completely different from your idea.

You see how easy it is to subtly adjust scripture to mirror your own understanding of God. Much like Scott and the other JWs do. Hmmm.
---Marc on 8/6/13


Prov15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

He sees all!

Jer19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

He did not predestinate sin!

Isa46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He predestinated his people to salvation. He does not predestinate sin!

Consider: Rom 5:19 and the word "disobedience".
---trey on 8/7/13


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//Even the sinful acts of man are controlled by God. //

MarkV everything you profess I believe is correct except this statement. My understanding of this statement is that God forces man to sin. BUT James 1:13 says that "for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." God may allow temptation or evil but does not force you to sin.
---Scott1 on 8/6/13


MarkV,

What does the following biblical quote say: "So the Lord relented from this [destruction]."? He relented and therefore changed HIS mind!

Like the JW sales rep Scott, lurking in the peripheral shadows, you avoided engaging with the Scripture I quoted, preferring to distract the reader toward your own words.

Speaking of Scott, I see you're still keeping an orderly account of all those "nasties" I aimed your way. Wow, you must have oodles of time on your hand. Surely it would be better spent knocking on just a few more doors. You never know, that one extra door may get you into that exclusive 144,000 club.
---Marc on 8/6/13


Marc, you expect silence?
""Now let me alone so I may destroy them." Exodus 32:10 Moses then persuades God not to and Scripture states, "So the Lord relented (changed His mind) from this [destruction]." (v. 14) see Numbers 14:11-20 & Psalm 106:23). Once again, MarkV's heresy or Scripture."
Everything that happens through time and will happen is account for in the counsel of God. You have created in your mind a god who fails. Sinful man ruins his plan, so he goes to his second and then third when the second fails. My God directs the steps of each individual.
"there are many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand" (Prov. 19:21).
---Mark_V. on 8/4/13


MarkV: "My God plan is complete before Him, and nothing or no one can change the outcome of that plan."

"Now let me alone so I may destroy them." (Exodus 32:10) Moses then persuades God not to and Scripture states, "So the Lord relented (i.e. changed His mind) from this [destruction]." (v. 14) Also see Numbers 14:11-20 & Psalm 106:23). Hmmmm. Once again, MarkV's heresy or Scripture.

I expect silence.
---Marc on 8/3/13


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Richard, great answers you have been giving. I know where your heart is at. The whole Bible is about God, what He does, why He does it, overturning nations, kings. He is a God of love and a God of justice. Nothing can happen without Him doing, or allowing and permitting it to happen. For all actions of men, God has it covered. Even the actions of Satan and his demons. They can only go as far as God permits them to go, and no further, all for the manifest ion of His glory.
The reason people like Linda don't belief in a Sovereign God is because they give all the power to men's free will and to the devil. And God gets only the crumb's.
---Mark_V. on 8/3/13


Gods' word is all knowing. It does two things. It's like a two edged sword, Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8. if you not using it to sow the Gospel. What are you using it for? God knows if you don't use his word for life it is being used against you.
---Bryan on 8/3/13


Genesis 20:6 - And God said unto him in a dream, Yea I Know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy Heart: For I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not touch her,

Judges 9:23 - Then God sent an evil spirit between Adlimelech and the men of Shechem, and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech

1 Samuel 16:14 - But The Spirit Of the Lord Departed From Saul, and a evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
---RICHARDC on 8/2/13


Linda, what you say is true concering your god. My God is sovereign and is never defeated by Satan, sin, or by sinful man's actions, in fact
"A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth steps" (Prov. 16:9)
My God plan is complete before Him, and nothing or no one can change the outcome of that plan. "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36).
Your god is defeated day in and night out by sinful man, sin, the devil, murderers, and the like. You are right, we do not have the same God.
My God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Holy, a just. I sure don't want to stand before you god, so please do not pray for me to that god.
---Mark_V. on 8/2/13


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"Christan, everything that happens, happens as it was ordained by God to happen"---Mark_V. on 8/1/13

Did you hear that everyone!???

God ordained sin! He ordained disobedience! Then he gets angry with us when we follow along with his plan!

Utter hogwash! Even little children know its not right to push someone to do something wrong and then punish them for doing exactly what you made them do.

What you do is nothing short of blaspheming Gods holy name.
Youre either completely evil, or a lunatic. I hope for your sake its the latter. I pray the Lord offers you long life so you have plenty of time to turn from this twisted version of love and justice.
---LindaH on 8/1/13


God is truly the sovereign personal Lord. By personal, Scripture identifies God as the One who interacts with other persons as a person, The person of the living God. God is never presented as some mere abstract concept or impersonal force or power....God possesses ALL KNOWLEDGE [Job 38:39, Rom. 11:33-36].God does whatever He pleases [Ps. 135:6] and desires that all people do His will. The more you grow the more zealous you become in doing God's will. Another Scripture as follows 1 John 2:17. The more obedient you are the more you will suffer.
---catherine on 8/1/13


Christan, everything that happens, happens as it was ordained by God to happen. There is not even one minute thing that happens without God ordaining to happen. He decreed the whole plan just as He wanted. If there was things going on without the permission of God those things would be more powerful then God. And there is nothing more powerful then God. Nothing or no one can change His eternal plan. Even the sinful acts of man are controlled by God. They end when God wants them to end and last as long as God wants them to last. He is the Great Architect. While architects design things and some things might be wrong, with God there is nothing wrong in His plan.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/13


Nana, you were giving another parable, the parable of the soils, and the parable of the sower, the seed there is the word of God.
I was speaking of the parable of the Wheat and Tares.
"He answered and said to them, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, "the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom" but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sows them is the devil," (Matt. 13:37-39).
---Mark_V. on 8/1/13


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MarkV,

You claimed I had a bipolar disorder merely because I argued that your theology and soteriology are unbiblical. You've never apologised. Please cease claiming people are in darkness because such is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
---Marc on 8/1/13


Warwick 2, you say to me,
"Mark, it is you who do not get it. I believe you are in darkness on this issue and feel I have done all I can to point out your error."
So I am in darkness because I give you Scripture, the Light of the world, and you call it error. Then, after telling me I am in darkness you say,
"All the best." Like you are trying to be kind by telling me I am in darkness. Is that what you tell others when they ask you questions or give you the Word of God?
It is those who push for free will that always have something negative to say. I do believe you are in the light, but I hope one day you can understand that part of Scripture you don't see right now.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/13


As the tree is known by its fruit, it could be said that the Son of Man is sowing "children of the kingdom" as well as if I say that I am sowing wheat, although the only way to tell what was sown would be by its yield.

"Behold, a sower went forth to sow, And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:"
Matthew 13:19 "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."
The seed is "the word of the kingdom", the word of God.
---Nana on 7/31/13


Warwick, you see the Truth and don't believe it. So you run, because it's better to run then to find out the Truth. Luke 19:10 does not say, Christ came here to seek and to save all the lost. Of course not. Two thirds of human history had already died in their sins. Christ did not come here to see if there were any who would seek after Him, of course not. (Romans 3:11) tells us "there is no one who seeks after God" Jesus seeks and saves.
The angel told Joseph
"Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save His people from their sins" Not try to save them, but actually save them. "The good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep" (John 10:10) If you are one of His sheep He died for you.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/13


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Mark, it is you who do not get it. I believe you are in darkness on this issue and feel I have done all I can to point out your error. All the best.
---Warwick on 7/30/13


Warwick 2: the parable of the "weed" or "tares" is explained by Jesus in (Matt. 13:38)
"He who sows the good "seed" the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good "seeds" are the "sons of the Kingdom." but the tares are the "sons of the wicked one." The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels."
God plants His sons in the world, but the devil also plants his sons, the parable goes on to say,
"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire"
---Mark_V. on 7/30/13


Warwick, here is what you do not get, when the Bible says He loves us, He is not talking about every single individual. He is talking about the believers, His people, His sheep, those chosen from the foundation of the world. If He loved everyone the same, everyone would be saved and Eph 2:4 Why even put down "because of His great love for which He loved us" it would not be necessary at all if He loved every single person the same. He was talking about believers. Why don't you get the message of the Bible? This should be clear to you if you witness all over the place as you mentioned? Read the parable of the "Weeds" and read the answer Jesus gives to that parable and you should see more clearly what I am saying.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/13


Elder, you say,
"Are you saying because God loved us first that FORCES us to love Him? If so that is totally wrong."
I never said He forced us. The reason we love Him is because He first loved us. He put the love of Christ in our hearts. We never faught with God, He never said, "hey, do you want the love of Christ in your heart? No, He just did it. Why don't you understand? Jesus is love, He comes to live inside of us. No one is forced. Notice that He doesn't do that with everyone lost. Only those He makes alive together with Christ Eph. 2:4-10) why? (v.2:7) "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus"
---Mark_V. on 7/30/13


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Mark, "not relevant" refers to the topic at hand i.e whether God forces us to love Him.

BTW "through the Spirit' does not appear in the Greek interlinear.

As the Oxford dictionary shows compel has a number of meanings depending upon context. One is to force someone against their will, as I have used it.

You wrote God does what He wants. He loves us so that we can love Him. He certainly does, that is why I said He is not forced to love us. He does so because He chooses to do so. Likewise we are not forced, against our will to love Him.
---Warwick on 7/29/13


MarkV Your statements need to be cleared up for me.
You rejected the statement, "You can not force someone to love you. If man does not have free will, he cannot then love God"
You said,
"That is not true at all. The only reason "we love Him is because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
If He had not loved us first, we would never be able to love Him."
Are you saying because God loved us first that FORCES us to love Him? If so that is totally wrong.
---Elder on 7/29/13


MarkV,

I don't reject the word of God - I reject your understanding concerning it. In your arrogance you forget that people have another view of understanding God's word. Your arrogance dictates that you, and only you, are correct.

I argue from the logic of God's word. All passages must be true to his word and character. You have made God the author of sin. You have stated this. What more need a man do but conclude you have blasphemed the Holy One.
---Marc on 7/29/13


Warwick, you say a lot,
"that He first loved us is not in dispute, nor relevant." Not relevent? So God should not have put it down. Then say,
" God was not forced to love us and does not force anyone to love Him." God does what He wants. He loves us so that we can love Him. Man cannot create a love for Christ by their own will. No one seeks after God (Rom. 3:11) because salvation with men is impossible (Matt. 19:26).
You say"
"1 Peter 1:22 "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart," You forgot the words "Through the Spirit" Those people were saved already.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/13


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Warwick 2, you also say,
"Love by compulsion is an oxymoron as love is a freewill gift, the opposite of compulsion."
here is the definition of compulsion,
"1. a: an act of compelling: the state of being compelled. b: a force that compels. 2: an irresistible persistent impulse to perform an act."
When God shows His love for us, we are able to show our love for Him. We become compelled to show our love for Him. There would be no love for Christ, if He didn't love us first. Only believers love the Lord, those born of God. His love is a gift.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/13


Mark, that He first loved us is not in dispute, nor relevant. God was not forced to love us and does not force anyone to love Him. Our love is a response to His love for us. Love by compulsion is an oxymoron as love is a freewill gift, the opposite of compulsion. True love is something special, of great value, only because it is it is freely given.

1 Peter 1:22 "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart," Peter tells us we have been purified by our obedience, not His compulsion. And that we are to sincerely and earnestly love our brothers. Sincerity, and earnestness are not the results of compulsion but of choice produced by thankfulness.
---Warwick on 7/28/13


1: You can not force someone to love you. If man does not have free will, he cannot then love God"

That is not true at all.

The only reason "we love Him is because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
If He had not loved us first, we would never be able to love Him. So get the story right.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/13
I am sometimes woried about the american aducational system

we love him because he first loved us, did he force us to love him ecause he first loved us?
---francis on 7/28/13


francis, again, another false statement concerning God that you made up. You now say,

"1: You can not force someone to love you. If man does not have free will, he cannot then love God"

That is not true at all. The only reason "we love Him is because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
If He had not loved us first, we would never be able to love Him. So get the story right.

---Mark_V. on 7/28/13


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Marc, everything you said is all in your mind. Every time something is said of God, you reject. And then make stories why it cannot be that way, then accuse others who write down the passage. Always an excuse to reject the Word of God. That is what I told Shira. God says something, and they so no. Anyone with have a brain knows that God does not lie, and does not sin. If there is sin it is because He set the standard as to what sin is. If there was no sin, there would be no need for Christ to come and die for our sins in order for us to be saved. No need for the Holy Spirit to make us alive together with Christ, we would really be robots with no knowledge of God's love and His mercy, or justice. We would not even need Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/13


1: You can not force someone to love you. If man does not have free will, he cannot then love God

2: If God had not chased Adam and Eve out of the garden, they would have eaten from the tree oflife, and be life long sinners. Living with all that sin has to offer: pain, deciet, disease, suffering and so on. It was out of love that he placed them out of the garden so that sin would come to an end eventually.
In the same manner, God destroys the wicked so that sin can come to and end. It is not that God wants to destroy man, but rather God intents to put an end to sin, and man who holds on to sin, unfortunately will be destroyed with sin.

3: James 1:13-17
---francis on 7/28/13


Mark V: Perhaps Francis meant that sin was not the intent of God - though God in His infinite knowledge knew that sin would occur

But this leaves a question that I wonder, though I am sure I will never understand the answer

I ASSUME that any creature with a soul can sin. But it is hard for me to understand how it was worth while if some were to end up in hell?
---Peter on 7/27/13


MarkV admits that God wanted man to sin, that it was His plan for man to definitely sin, that He created man in order that man would sin.

MarkV, you have made God the author of sin. You are not a Christian but an unsaved blasphemer who upholds and disseminates a belief from Satan himself. And worse of all, you lead people astray from God's love who "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" and offers an opportunity to all to repent and turn from their wicked ways.
---Marc on 7/27/13


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Ephesians 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hide in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ,
3:10 - To the intent that now unto principalities and power in heavenly places might know by the Church the manifold wisdom of God,
3:11 - According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isaiah 49:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the thing that are not yet done, saying My Counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ,
---RICHARDC on 7/27/13


God planned to take care of the sin problem before sin entered the world, that does not mean that God planned for man to sin

what could God or name gain by sin?
---francis on 7/27/13


"foreknown indeed as a sacrifice "for sin" before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20).
---Mark_V. on 7/27/13
That is not the same as God as God creating man with the intent that man should kill another, the knowledge that man would sin, is not the same as creating man with the intent to sin
---francis on 7/27/13


francis, you say,
"Sin was never the plan of God."
Of course it was. We are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed as a sacrifice "for sin" before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20). Before there was man, and you do not believe it. Guess what? It happened.
Then say,
"God does not place a stumbling block before us that we should fall into sin, and and unrepentance, and thus be disqualified for the kingdom" The Word of God,
"He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the house of Israel, as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble" (Isaiah 8:14,15).
---Mark_V. on 7/27/13


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Sin was never the plan of God.
To say that sin was the plan of God is to say that is was God's plan all along that one man should kill his brother, or that man should commit adultery

No God's plan was never sin, but God being all knowing knew than man, given free will would sin, No surprise to God, so God being all knowing has a plan of redeemption from the very begining
---francis on 7/26/13


This is the answer that must be given

God knows wverything that we are going to do bnefore it is done

God does not place a stumbling block before us that we should fall into sin, and and unrepentance, and thus be disqualified for the kingdom

but rather, because God knows in advance: He lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Luke 11:4

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
---francis on 7/26/13


Mark V wrote: Sin was going to enter the world, the reason the tree of good and evil was planted by God." That is, according to Mark, God wanted Adam and Eve to eat. Alternatively, Scripture says God told them not to eat from the tree. Whom to believe?

Furthermore, MarkV wrote, "Sin was in the plan of God." Scripture declares that man was made in God's image. Mark has that image of God containing sin. If God had made Adam to sin, man's image contains sin and thus sin is found in God. What? Monism or even Manichaeism, both pagan attacks on God and early heresies in which God becomes the author of evil.
---Marc on 7/26/13


Mark V wrote, "Sin was in the plan of God"

Mark, maybe you can enlighten us bipolar ones: To what end was God the author of sin i.e. why would God be that?
---Marc on 7/26/13


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Hello ,thankyou Bro.WillieC. (with all respect) 1.Let me say saw you poem it is excellante,2.yes,you are correct,so,much he lost ( going against God!) It shows just how stupid he is & try to take us down the road of perdition. I love Jesus! He knows when I am not feeling well,He hears my cry,wipes away every tear & bring me back to peace ,mercy,joy in spite of it all! He is worth more than anything! He gives me peace of mind..love of Jesus!
---lidia4796 on 7/26/13


Scott 1, you say,
"God is all-knowing and all-reactionary. Did God want (will) Adam to sin? NO. Did Adam? Yes."
Sin was in the plan of God Scott. Why do you think Jesus Christ was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world? If God did not want Adam to fall, there would have been no need for Christ to be a sacrifice for sin before the world was even created. Sin was going to enter the world, the reason the tree of good and evil was planted by God. Did God cause Adam to sin? No. He just permitted him to fall into that sin. He was not deceived by the Serpent. He sinned because he choose to sin. All God did was set the pieces together and it was going to be what God ordained it to be.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/13


Lidia, I am thinking, why does God know everything? Well, if you know what will happen tomorrow, it is because you have the control of what will happen. Isn't it like this? But people not in control do not know what will happen.

Satan is called "the god of this age", in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So, the "god" who does not know and who is not in control is Satan. "And our self-willed egos are not in control!"

We have the example of how Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery and betrayed their own father by helping him to believe Joseph was dead. But God knew different, about what all that was for > Genesis 37-50 > His good. He knew because He was in control. Those brothers didn't know.
---willie_c: on 7/26/13


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