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Was Jesus Political

Was Jesus political as it relates to a government or the public affairs of a country?

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 ---Leon on 7/23/13
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francis, if people had free will, there would be at least one passage that tells us that.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/13
Well there is more than one

Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve,

Deuteronomy 30:19 I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant,
---francis on 8/8/13


Francis, Mark would see hundreds of passages that speak the truth about freewill if he would only read and accept them. He lives and "teaches" in a spiritual fog.
Here as in many places he misuses passages such as the Eph reference he tries to use.
Without Christ, of course, we were exactlly what Eph. 2:1-10 says.
I was lost but I didn't stay that way.
Mark refuses to see v1, He hath quickened those who WERE dead in trespasses and sin. They were lost but didn't stay that way either!


---Elder on 8/8/13


francis, if people had free will, there would be at least one passage that tells us that. If a person really had free will, he would have a hope. But God tells us through His Word after talking about how God made us alive by grace through faith in (Eph. 2:1-10) He says,
"That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commomwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, "having no hope and without God" in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:12,13). You were brought, you didn't come with your free will. No hope. Not one little one. All that free will for nothing. And you call the Truth garbish.
---Mark_V. on 8/8/13


---Mark_V. on 8/7/13
Garbage. It thus means he he did not give such a spirit. had God forced his spirit on them, they woudl have been obedient to this very day

because Nehemioah, and all those after him says that they were not obedient
See malichi who came years after

see paul's writing how the Jesus rejected him

they had free will
---francis on 8/7/13


francis, two things come out from (Eze. 11:19,20) are as follows,
It is God who is doing the changing in people's hearts.
"Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take their stony heart out of their flesh" And notice He doesn't say, "if you Him permission" with your free will. But that He will do it.
Then He says,
"That they may walk in My statutes and keep May Judgments and do them," Notice He did not say, "if you let Him with your free will. And if you refuse He cannot do what He says He will do.
The second thing you should notice is, that He never said you would keep His judgments perfect.
---Mark_V. on 8/7/13




Kathr, That is this very reason that I don't support welfare, but I do believe that individuals should give to the needy around them out of their own free will. Because the fact is, the government is a very poor allocator of funds. They are too large and disconnected to effectively discern between the moochers and the truly needy. Also, much of the taxpayer money goes to paying for administrative costs, rather than the recipients. We could much more effectively help the truly needy if we as individuals were able to give that money directly to the needy in our families and communities ourselves. We are better able to discern where the money is needed most because we see who is actually needy and who is abusing it.
---Jed on 8/6/13


kathr, your meaning is wrong, in context, God said the lazy should not eat. He didn't say the hungry should not eat. of course we are to feed someone hungry. if that person is hungry because he is lazy he should not eat.
---shira4368 on 8/6/13


kathr, your meaning is wrong, in context, God said the lazy should not eat. He didn't say the hungry should not eat. of course we are to feed someone hungry. if that person is hungry because he is lazy he should not eat.
---shira4368 on 8/6/13


Jed:

No, Paul didn't say that at all. He was talking about poeple ministring in the name of Christ and making a profit from it. This wasn't like poor welfare recipients getting rich off the public - it was more like corrupt politicians getting rich off the public.

It's the corrupt welfare system that caters to laziness and enslaved children in poverty

Sadly, this is true for many public safety nets, they only help you if you'are at the very bottom, and stop the moment you take even a single step up, keeping you on the bottom.

in order to buy democratic votes

No. That is a totally unwarranted conclusion based on your previous correct premise.
---StrongAxe on 8/6/13


Jed, I agree with you, and agree with your last post re lazy etc.

Yes, there will always be moochers and this country has in fact turned many into moocher.... free this and that. AND then there are truly the poor, who for some reason or another, health, Age, etc, need to be cared for. James even instructs the church to take care of widows and orphans.

We need to know how to discern between the truly needy and the moochers. I'll never give money to people asking, but I have on many occasions bought them lunch or dinner, and you will be surprised many will take the food over money. If they just want money and not what they say they want the money for, then I do pass them by.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/13




The FREEDOM and LIBERTY God has to offer us through Jesus Christ is FREEDOM from SIN. ---kathr4453 on 8/4/13

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you, and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

the power of the Holy SPiit is given to enabel us to be free from si, be empowering us to keep the laws of God

mark_V has not yet experienced that because he thinks that he is called ( predestined) to be saved in his sins, and not from his sins
---francis on 8/6/13


Kathr, again, get is right. God does not offer us Freedom, He gives us freedom once we are made alive (by grace) together with Christ. Man does not seek after God (Rom. 3:11). Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Not if you let Him. He ask no permission. If you are one of His sheep, you will hear His voice and follow Him. Only His sheep hear His voice. Jesus said,
"I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good Shepherd: the good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep" (John 10:10). He did not say He gave His life for everyone. His sheep once possessed life in their natural head 'Adam'. But when he fell, they fell, when He died, they died. For it is written.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/13


\\That describes exactly today's welfare system!\\

Does it?

\\ So even by your own admission, Paul condemned todays welfare system and wealth redistribution!\\

Did he?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/6/13



There were Christains who were... MOOCHING off the different ministries, and THAT is what Paul was addressing in that verse.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/13

That describes exactly today's welfare system! So even by your own admission, Paul condemned todays welfare system and wealth redistribution! Republicans have the same problem with welfare that Paul did. Republicans are not against helping the poor. They willingly give more of their own money to the needy than any one else, that is a proven statistic. It's the corrupt welfare system that caters to laziness and enslaved children in poverty in order to buy democratic votes, that's what Republicans are opposed to.
---Jed on 8/6/13


MarkV, there you go again slandering God. You don't believe Titus 2:11, and we all know it. That is not my problem, but yours.

Whosoever means salvation is OFFERED to all. Not all will except that offering.

I've had men OFFER to marry me...I said NO. But thank you for your offer.

I have the FREE WILL to reject any offer made to me. Or accept or reject any JOB OFFER made to me.

OR MarkV , are you saying you have never experienced freedom from Sin and Liberty in the RISEN CHRIST? Well, it's there, maybe YOU just never took God up on that offer and today are still lacking our of your OWN choices to live in bondage and sin.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/13


Those who don't work should not eat.....let's reexamine that verse.

There were Christains who were coming in the different missions around the world..that is their world as they knew it, MOOCHING off the different ministries, and THAT is what Paul was addressing in that verse. Paul was NOT talking about the poor in general.

Now go and find a verse where Jesus Himself rebuked the poor or a beggar and told people " they must work to eat".

Or the verse about LOVE...if you see your brother hungry, and say, "Have a nice day", and don't feed them, you are not loving them. Nothing there about..ok, tell them first to clean your toilets, then feed them".
---kathr4453 on 8/6/13


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The Bible didn't confuse the poor with the lazy as liberals do in America. In the Bible, every time the word "poor" is used, it is talking about a person who incapable of earning money. The crippled, the widowed, the elderly, etc. Yet today's welfare programs are targeted toward lazy young capable people who simply do not try. If you'll notice, even the truly poor had to go out and get the food themselves. And they got the leftovers, they did not get the crme of the crop while the rightful owners had to struggle to survive while trying to provide for the luxuries of the poor. And only food was to be provided, not houses, cars, air conditioners, and cell phones. God's policies are hardly the liberal's policies you see today.
---Jed on 8/6/13


Kathr says,
"The FREEDOM and LIBERTY God has to offer us through Jesus Christ is FREEDOM from SIN."
God does not offer you anything. You want to make as though man has the will to accept or not reject it, but that is not what God does. He gives you freedom from sin through Christ. He does not offer it. He bestows it.
---Mark_V. on 8/6/13


God also said if we don't "work" we shouldn't eat"
---shira4368 on 8/5/13


There are so many programs put in place by Jesus to help the poor, that would make a conservative shoot his hunting buddy in the face and then force that hunting buddy to apologist to him

No interest on loans for the poor: Exodus 22:25
Leave some grain in the field for the poor: Leviticus 19:10
Collect money for the poor Deuteronomy 26:12
Debt relief for the poor: Deuteronomy 15:2
Do not prosecute the poor for stealing food Proverbs 6:30

The only thing that God ask, is that the poor has to do some work also!

2 Thess 3:10 if any would not work, neither should he eat.

This is the BIG FLAW in liberalism, people who do nothing and collect from the tax payers
---francis on 8/4/13


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Jesus was not political. Yet we are instructed as long as we live on this earth in the flesh, to obey those who have been put in authority over us.

The FREEDOM and LIBERTY God has to offer us through Jesus Christ is FREEDOM from SIN. Freedom and liberty from this world. And because Christians are no longer part of THIS world system, OUR riches are IN CHRIST JESUS, and cannot even compare to the junk wealth of this world system.

Many today confuse Christianity with the political right wing conservatives. They LOVE the Glenn Beck's of this world. They know more Glenn Beck quotes than verses in scripture. These TOO are enemies of the CROSS, who mind earthly things.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/13


Proverbs 22:16
He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Solomon, a wealthy King had much to say about the poor. I wonder if this verse came out of Solomon's own personal experience. I'm sure it did.
But history will always repeat itself, and we never learn from others mistakes.

God put the poor before us for a reason.

Sell all you have and GIVE IT TO THE POOR, Jesus said, and pick up your cross and follow me.

You can't carry your cross, and your earthly wealth together.

Mormons have hoarded for the last days, so Glenn Beck's philosophy comes from his own Mormon belief that they alone will inherit this earth.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/13


Luke 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

You think any conservative would want to be seen with a woman like that id daylight?

At night and in airport rest rooms yes, but in daylight

they will try to ban same partner union yet they take money from the LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS
---francis on 8/2/13


conservitives would call that wealth redistribution and be against it

---francis on 8/1/13

Liberals just use the government to force money from OTHER people and redistribute it to their own people
---Jed on 8/1/13
see told you
Conservitives would never stand to see Jesus take that boy's fish and bread ans give it to other people
---francis on 8/2/13


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I think that we are all liberal in some ways and conservative in other ways.

It depends on how you draw your charts and set your criteria.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/1/13



If jesus was political, he was a liberal,
He never turned down anyone who came to him for help FOR FREE!
---francis on 8/1/13


Well that sure makes him sound like a conservative then! Liberals are only interested in giving other people's money away. Conservatives want to make people financially free, liberals want to keep them enslaved to the government so they will continue to vote for them.
---Jed on 8/1/13


Jesus was political in the sense He shed light in all aspects of human life. What I see in particular is how He dealt with the ruling (governing) bodies of His day. 1.) He was well informed about the inner workings of government. 2.) He also knew the track records & characters of government officials. 3.) Armed with insider knowledge, He was able to work the rulers of His day towards fulfilling His Father's good purpose.

We Christians can do no less: Fully (as much as possible) understand the laws that govern us. Actively participate in making & , when necessary, changing bad laws & elected officials by power of our vote (local, state & federal). We must be active, salt & light, on the world stage.
---Leon on 8/1/13


If jesus was political, he was a liberal,
He never turned down anyone who came to him for help FOR FREE Matthew 10:8 freely ye have received, freely give.

He came to do his father's will
Deuteronomy 15:14 Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.
---francis on 8/1/13


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If jesus was political, he surely was a liberal

He took fove loaves from one young man, and shared it with the crowd.

conservitives would call that wealth redistribution and be against it

---francis on 8/1/13


No, that's the kind of thing that conservatives do. Statistics show that conservatives share WAY more of what they have with the needy. Liberals just use the government to force money from OTHER people and redistribute it to their own people who don't really need it in order to buy votes for themselves. Hardly the thing Jesus would do.
---Jed on 8/1/13


If jesus was political, he surely was a liberal

He took fove loaves from one young man, and shared it with the crowd.

conservitives would call that wealth redistribution and be against it
---francis on 8/1/13


I would have to say yes. But I need to do some research in order to answer this question intelligently. I know we need Him drastically in governments, today, because our leaders are not too good in solving problems aright...There's always a better way. God said it, not Catherine. Hallelujah thank You Jesus.
---catherine on 8/1/13


Absolutely Gordon!

"While all Egyptians are Africans, not all Africans are black. And there's nothing in the Bible to suggest that Hagar was from sub-Saharan Africa.
Glory to Jesus Christ!"
---Cluny on 7/29/13


The opposite is also true Cluny: There's nothing in the Bible suggesting Hagar wasn't of sub-Saharan ancestry though it clearly says she was an Egyptian. I didn't say or imply she was black. I suspect that wouldn't have worked for Abraham or Sarah. No, I'm not implying they were racist! Though desperate at their advanced ages to have a child, they probably would've really wanted a child that shared their sandy-brown complexion (one that looked pretty much like themselves).
---Leon on 7/31/13


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Well Jesus certainly had some critical comments for the leaders in his day. So much so that they were constantly trying to arrest Him and He had to flee on several occasions. And He wasn't always very polite about it either! He even engaged in "name-calling" on a few occasions. Eventually, they did arrest Him and kill Him for it. He was a "radical" in his day. No doubt if He were on the earth today, He would certainly be put on the same terrorist lists that the Obama administration puts the tea partiers in.
---Jed on 7/30/13


Leon, Yahushua respected the governing authorities to the degree that He exclaimed "Render to Caeser the things that are Caeser's, and to GOD the things that are GOD's!"
MARK 12:17

ROMANS 13 says we should do likewise. To the point that it does not violate GOD's Commandments.
---Gordon on 7/30/13


\\ the Hebrew Abraham & Hagar the Egyptian (African) produced Ishmael.
\\

While all Egyptians are Africans, not all Africans are black. And there's nothing in the Bible to suggest that Hagar was from sub-Saharan Africa.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/29/13


Nikki on 7/27/13
i understand.
Your inperpretation is literal, let him have his coins, those are his items not Gods, after allw hat typeof man does not wear undies. ( i think only you and Iget the undies things)

The way i see it is that Jesus is saying that they should pay taxes to him, ( that is what the question asked) and return tithes to God
---francis on 7/28/13


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Nikki, so you are saying that if I had a robe, cow, gold bars or other things belonging to Ceasar I would only have to give what had his inscription on it?
No, my friend, Jesus plainly said to give/render to him what was his.---Elder on 7/27/13

You might be right, but I am only taking the Scripture as it is written.
I am not assuming anything.
Jesus looked at the coin, and asked a question on who's inscription was on it.
Now, He could have said: give the coins to Caesar. Or, give part of your wealth to Caesar.
Since He didn't, I shall not assume.

BTW, paying taxes today in America is doing exactly what Jesus said to do.
The Government prints the money and I return part of my money printed by them to them.
---Nikki on 7/28/13


"Was Jesus political as it relates to a government or the public affairs of a country?" No.
"No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of [this] life, [so] that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier." 2Ti 2:4
---josef on 7/28/13


I've done some minimal research on this matter.

Contrary to what some people here have said, the Romans rarely took taxes in kind, that is of agricultural produce or animal husbandry.

Taxes were paid in coin as a general rule.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/27/13


\\Better yet, maybe because he doesn't wear underwear. (no source on the underwear part. he just looks like he wouldn't wear anything too binding.)\\

Actually, Nikki, there is evidence that some kind of loincloths were worn by both sexes during the Imperial period.

Furthermore, there are frescoes--or maybe mosaics-- from this time showing women exercising with dumbbells, and wearing nothing but loincloths and halter tops or what appear to be sports bras.

The OT commanded the priests to wear underpants beneath their vestments.

Underwear is ancient.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/27/13


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Nikki, so you are saying that if I had a robe, cow, gold bars or other things belonging to Ceasar I would only have to give what had his inscription on it?
No, my friend, Jesus plainly said to give/render to him what was his.
There was a move on a few years ago that said Christians did not have to pay taxes. That was mainly because the government didn't display Christian desires.
Jesus statement had more than just coins in mind. It dealt with which was rightfully owed.

---Elder on 7/27/13


I've observed you constantly saying things, here on Christianet, that are NOT found in Scripture. Where do you get these ideas?---Grandma

Either you haven't read all the Bible, or forgotten?
My ideas came from Scripture.
Go to Mark 12:15-16, or Matthew 22:19-20. I believe Luke also speaks about the coin and Caesar.


Yes, but even God doesn't want it.--Nikki
why not?--francis

I quess because Caesar always thinks he is a god.
Or maybe because God thinks that wreath on his head is stupid.
Maybe because he can't even wear leather, but wears white linen for clothes.
Better yet, maybe because he doesn't wear underwear. (no source on the underwear part. he just looks like he wouldn't wear anything too binding.)
---Nikki on 7/27/13


"Nikki: What Scripture is your source for all you are saying about Jesus saying about the coin with Caesar on it, and that God doesn't want it?

I've observed you constantly saying things, here on Christianet, that are NOT found in Scripture. Where do you get these ideas?"
---Grandma on 7/27/13


Nikki's ideas are found in the uncannonized book of Subjectivity Grandma. :)

Politics: Is all about who we submit ourselves to ~ who we choose to govern, rule, reign over us? Jesus, first of all, submitted Himself to God the Father. He, being also God & man, then submitted to earthly authorities established by God to rule over men. This He did in accordance with the Father's plan of salvation for humanity.
---Leon on 7/27/13


Nikki: What Scripture is your source for all you are saying about Jesus saying about the coin with Caesar on it, and that God doesn't want it?

I've observed you constantly saying things, here on Christianet, that are NOT found in Scripture. Where do you get these ideas?
---Grandma on 7/27/13


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Yes, but even God doesn't want it.
---Nikki on 7/27/13
why not?
---francis on 7/27/13


that even the very coin which has the image of Cesar belongs to God.--francis on 7/26/13

Yes, but even God doesn't want it.
---Nikki on 7/27/13


--Nikki on 7/26/13
and yet you are 100% correct, that even the very coin which has the image of Cesar belongs to God. For God truly own's EVERYTHING
---francis on 7/26/13


But, what is ordered to give to Ceasar? Ceasar's coins.
---Nikki on 7/26/13
His taxes. Look at the context:

Luke 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?...And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
This would be the taxes called by the publicans

What about God in the FINANCIAL context:

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
---francis on 7/26/13


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while the tribute money may be temple taxes, giving to ceasar is Roman taxes
---francis on 7/25/13

I agree!

But, what is ordered to give to Ceasar? Ceasar's coins.

If you put money in the bank, and ask for it back 2 years later. The Bank will only give back your money plus interest.

No more and only your money.
Not John's, Paul's or David's money.
Only your money

Jesus is saying give Caesar only his coins.
Nothing of God which is everything. Jesus is giving permission for the coins with Caesar's inscription only. No other King or Queen's inscription
---Nikki on 7/26/13



Caesar's coins were NOT the only form of payment.
Live stock, produces, unmark gold and silver. Even human beings.

Remember the Pharisee was trying to trap Jesus. And Jesus knew.
He answered him correctly.
The coin given to you by Caesar give back to Caesar for his Demanded tax payment.
---Nikki on 7/26/13


Exactly! And he followed that with "render unto God what is God's". Jesus was saying don't render unto Caesar what God has given you (livestock, crops), as the people had been doing previously. Only give to Caesar what came from him, Give to God what came from God!
---Jed on 7/26/13


Elder, I am saying the question was posed to Him, and Jesus answered it.

He didn't say pay taxes to Roman.

Caesar's coins were NOT the only form of payment.
Live stock, produces, unmark gold and silver. Even human beings.

Remember the Pharisee was trying to trap Jesus. And Jesus knew.
He answered him correctly.
The coin given to you by Caesar give back to Caesar for his Demanded tax payment.

'Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar?'
You all are asking the same question.
Why isn't Jesus' answer good enough?
Even the Pharisee who asked accepted the answer.

BTW, I pay taxes as a good Christian. But it was Paul, not Jesus who said pay taxes. Jesus only agreed to the temple tax.
---Nikki on 7/26/13


I think we only are to disobey the laws that require us to disobey Scripture.---Grandma

In other words you are saying just laws. As I said. We are only told to obey THE JUST LAWS.
Killing is against Scripture.
I'm not adding to Scripture, you just want to argue with me.

And so we are bound by Our Lord's precept to obey the civil laws about taxation.---Cluny

Yes. but up to a point.
I pay taxes, because taxes are needed.
But, Jesus DIDN'T say pay taxes.

AGAIN, you can pay Roman taxes with unmarked gold.
Jesus knews that.
He could have said 'pay the taxes to Roman.' BUT DIDN'T!
He said: give his coin back to him. A difference.

Jesus didn't suggest any PAYMENT but Caesar's coins.
---Nikki on 7/26/13


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"No where in the Bible does it state Jesus paid Roman taxes.
No where."
(Nikki on 7/25/13)
Com'on now Nikki... Please tell me where the Bible says or even indicates that Jesus ever bathed. Do you think He may have walked around dirty all the time.
He washed others feet. Do you think He ever had dirty feet Himself?
We never see Him changing into clean clothes. Do you think He might have or not?
The Bible doesn't state either of these things. So, because this is not in the Bible we can figure that He never bathed, wore soiled clothes and had dirty feet. Is that right? Or, do you think something else.
Ya think He ever combed His hair....?
---Elder on 7/26/13


\\No where in the Bible does it state Jesus paid Roman taxes.\\

While Jesus DID command us to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," in His holy and voluntary poverty, he may not have had anything that was taxable by Caesar.

Most of us, however, do.

And so we are bound by Our Lord's precept to obey the civil laws about taxation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/26/13


Jesus was not political in his first coming. In his second coming he will be political. Macabees were the extreme nationalistic political side and tried to overthrow the Roman government but were unsuccessful which lead to the 70 AD destruction. The Saduccess were the extreme liberal political religious leaders who would do anything to keep the peace. Jesus said wait for the kingdom of God and in this way he choose to pick his battles wisely. This is why the comment on paying taxes to Caesar so don't anger Rome but don't give into Rome either. Remember they thought the messiah would be a warrior like David not a spiritual warrior.
---Scott1 on 7/26/13


About if Jesus meant for the Jews not to pay tribute to Rome > I understand that Rome had control of Israel because of Israel's disobedience. So, if they had obeyed God, they would not be in that situation, for taxes to be an issue. What they needed was first to obey Jesus.

"'But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.'" (Matthew 6:33)

The same goes, now, how we need first to obey You, God our Father, and not only try to make ungodly people do what we dictate. The bad example of "complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:14-16) in marriages has helped to produce the children who now are leaders.
---willie_c: on 7/26/13


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---Nikki on 7/25/13
Nikki thou knowest I loveth thee with purified and not putrefied nor petrified love
But thou art wrong on this.

while the tribute money may be temple taxes, giving to ceasar is Roman taxes
---francis on 7/25/13


Nikki: You're wrong, again. Scripture says we're to submit to the government authorities. It doesn't specify only just laws. I think we only are to disobey the laws that require us to disobey Scripture.

I am sure if Jesus meant for his disciples to not pay taxes to Rome, it would have been mentioned in Scripture.

You just love adding to Scripture, and saying things that aren't there.
---Grandma on 7/26/13


Romans 13:1 - ( Submit to government ) Let every soul be subject to the government authorities, For there is no authorities except from God and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord sake , whether it be to the King, as supreme.
2:14 - Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
---RICHARDC on 7/25/13


Scripture is clear that believers are to obey the government that rules over us. If that includes taxes, then we pay the taxes.---Grandma on 7/25/13

We are to obey JUST Government laws.
German people didn't have to obey Hitler's laws.

Jesus is clear. Pay the government with ONLY government monies. The Bible is clear on that.
As I do. I pay my taxes with dollars. Who makes the dollar bill? The Government.

Temple taxes are not Roman Taxes.
Are you saying they are one and the same?
Jesus paid the temple tax.
No where in the Bible does it state Jesus paid Roman taxes.
No where.
---Nikki on 7/25/13


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Nikki: Where on earth do you get the idea that Jesus said not to pay Roman taxes?

Scripture is clear that believers are to obey the government that rules over us. If that includes taxes, then we pay the taxes. It would have also applied to the disciples.
---Grandma on 7/25/13


Strongaxe, Temple taxes isn't Rome taxes. Jesus paid the Temple taxes for Himself and Peter.

The Rome tax, Jesus didn't pay, and He didn't tell anyone to pay it.

He asked to see Casear's coin. He told them to give the coin back to Casear.
That is not saying to pay the taxes. He is saying to give back Casear's coin to him if you pay his demanded taxes.

Casear would have accepted gold, silver and other items.
People paid taxes in other forms back in Casear's time.
Stock (animals) produces and the other valuables.
Jesus didn't tell them to give gold, silver, copper, cows, wheat or other items to Casear. NO!
He said the coin with his inscription on it, give back to Caesar.
The rest - DON'T!
---Nikki on 7/25/13


This is actually a side issue thrown at Jesus by those trying to trick him. He certainly was political by challenging the status quo - remember the woman who washed his feet when he was dining with a pharisee. His statement challenged the hospitality and real welcome given to him by a man who was craving social approval. His statement in the beatitudes are political not praising religious leaders but the meek and poor.
---Edward_Turner on 7/25/13


Nikki:

francis said: He paid taxes to Rome..and encouraged others to do so

You said: No, He didn't. He paid the temple tax. Matthew 17:24-26

Jesus DID encourage one to pay paying taxes. He said to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (see Matthew 22, Mark 12, Luke 20).

He didn't take the path of modern consciencious objectors and say "I refuse to pay taxes because Caesar uses the money for ungodly purposes". Many Christians today use this excuse because of war or abortion or liberalism or any other pet peeve. But Jesus didn't object even though Caesar used taxes to fund pagan temples, and raise armies to conquer and enslave most of the known world.
---StrongAxe on 7/25/13


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leon, i was joking based on the ludicrous attempt mainly by the press to turn a tragedy into a political affair.

and you are right. they did not depict an Afro-Judean. they believe Jesus was a Judeo-African.

anyway, he had an effect on the politics of the day and even unto today.
---aka on 7/24/13


Matthew 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?... Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.



Matthew 17:25 What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Matthew 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up, and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
---francis on 7/24/13


leon, Jesus was a jew. you are right that he was not a blond hair blue eyed guy. his father was a carpenter and I know how Jesus must have been fit. He walked everywhere he went. I don't know if he was homeless because the bible says he didn't have a place to lay His head. he was perfect and he could not sin.
---shira4368 on 7/24/13


Well, Leon, those scriptures can show that Jesus did say things that could be considered political. But . . . however . . . that's two items, out of all the things recorded of what He did and said.

I would say He mainly was here for salvation, though He met people at their level and answered to them at their level, like to Herod, like that. So, He was not conceited, if He the Son of God actually personally answered to such inferior people.

This shows me how any person matters to Him. And He cares about what people think and how they are. He is caring and not conceited, and personally interested in each of us.
---willie_c: on 7/24/13


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Aka: Jesus was born a Jew, from the House of David, in the Middle East. He wasn't a blond, blue-eyed European. The Bible shows Him as a rugged, man's-man, type of individual. He wasn't effeminate looking as portrayed in the devil's pictures. His skin was probably more of a dusty, sandy-brown color after years of exposure to the Middle Eastern environment.

Was He Afro-Judean? Possibly since Jewish men often had concubines from other nations that produced mixed children, e.g., the Hebrew Abraham & Hagar the Egyptian (African) produced Ishmael.

Do I care that Jesus might have been mixed race? No! Frankly, I wouldn't care if He was white in appearance (though He wasn't). All I really care about is He's my Savior & Lord!
---Leon on 7/24/13


\\Jesus called the man a "fox"* not because He thought of him as being wise, but Jesus intended his words as a scathing rebuke (perhaps even an insult) to HA for being an immoral "dog" who was unfit to rule\\

Actually, Jesus used the feminine. English Bibles should say "Vixen."

You will sleep better knowing that there are 5 existing genera of foxes, and one extinct one.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/24/13


Willie_C: The reason for my question centers around two things in particular.
1.) Jesus's comments when asked about paying taxes to Rome. (Mat. 22:15-22 & Mk. 12:13-17)
2.) Jesus's comments to the pharisees regarding Herod Antipas, ruler of Galilee. (Luke 13:31-32) Jesus called the man a "fox"* not because He thought of him as being wise, but Jesus intended his words as a scathing rebuke (perhaps even an insult) to HA for being an immoral "dog" who was unfit to rule. I believe what Jesus did is classic righteous indignation on the same level as His dealing with the moneychangers. (Mk. 11:15-17)...

Do you believe Jesus was political?

*Footnote: Foxes are in the canine family.
---Leon on 7/24/13


He paid taxes to Rome..and encouraged others to do so---francis

No, He didn't. He paid the temple tax. Matthew 17:24-26

The collectors of the temple tax, not tax collectors as Matthew was for Rome. That's why Jesus pose the question to Peter that subjects are suppose to be exempt.
Jesus never told anyone to pay Rome that wasn't already their monies. Mark 12:14-17
When asked about paying the census tax to Caesar/Rome Jesus DIDN'T SAY YES.
Only give back Caesar what was his.
Implying if you didn't have a coin with Caesar's image and inscription on it, you didn't have to pay Caesar.
Because there were gold without any image or inscription at the time.
Caesar would have taken unmarked gold for tax payment.
---Nikki on 7/24/13


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he had an effect on the politics of the day

(aside - looking at anglo-saxons portraits of him, you would think he was a white jew.

i went to an all-black (except me) church for a half year. on the christmas bulletin, baby jesus was a black baby. do you think he was afro-judean?)
---aka on 7/24/13


Hi, Leon (c: I think Jesus was specialized for bringing salvation. So, when He talked about rulers, He was mainly personally concerned about them, not really about merely outwardly reforming political matters.

However, our Father is in overall control of politics, for using politics to work along with whatever He has Jesus doing. At any moment, He can turn any political situation to His purpose.

For example, we see how Joseph imprisoned for attempted rape that he didn't do was brought out right in time for God's good purpose.
---willie_c: on 7/23/13


Yes
Think about all the visions that Jesus gave to the prophets concerning the nations and kings.
Think about how God ruled in the heart of Solomon

Did Jesus get involved in the politics of the Roman government: On a limited bases, as far as it concerned obedience to the government

He paid taxes to Rome
and encouraged others to do so

in fact Jesus was the politics of his days

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.
---francis on 7/23/13


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