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Early Christian Writers

How many people here have actually read ANY of the early Christian writers, generally called the Fathers?

Which ones have you read? Whose propositions do you accepted, and whose do you reject?

Moderator - I have only read a few, but would love to read more. Cluny, do you have any favorites that you would recommend?

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 ---Cluny on 8/6/13
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\\NONSENSE!! since when is Israel considered gentiles?

You theology has fallen flat on it's uncircumcised head,
---Cluny on 8/19/13\\

I didn't say this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/13


Trav on 8/21/13
If the covenant is ONLY for israel, why is this guy going all the way to the temple in jeruscalem to worship Jehovah?

Acts 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
---francis on 8/22/13


---Trav on 8/21/13
Your theology is bunkers
All men can covenant with God

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:


Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,

Isaiah 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar, for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
---francis on 8/21/13


---Trav on 8/21/13
GARBAGE

ISRAEL WAS NEVER CALLED GENTILES
---francis on 8/21/13


NONSENSE!! since when is Israel considered gentiles?

You theology has fallen flat on it's uncircumcised head,
---Cluny on 8/19/13

Divorced from GOD. They were outside...."afar off" strangers from GOD.

Jer_30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD, neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, ...
Jer_31:10 ....in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer_46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, ....
Act_2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off,
---Trav on 8/21/13




How about St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, or their contemporaries, Jed? Ss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called Evangelists, not Fathers.
---Cluny on 8/20/13

Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
---Trav on 8/21/13


\\Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
---jerry6593 on 8/21/13\\

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,

Hebrews 1:1
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/21/13


Cluny: "Or do you understand plain English? Ss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called Evangelists, not Fathers."


Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
---jerry6593 on 8/21/13


\\How many people here have actually read ANY of the early Christian writers, generally called the Fathers?
---Cluny on 8/6/13

I read them all the time. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul.
---Jed on 8/20/13\\

How about St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, or their contemporaries, Jed? That's what this blog is about.

Or do you understand plain English? Ss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called Evangelists, not Fathers.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/20/13


How many people here have actually read ANY of the early Christian writers, generally called the Fathers?
---Cluny on 8/6/13


I read them all the time. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul.
---Jed on 8/20/13




Matthew 23:9 - And call no man your Father upon the earth, For one is your Father, which is in heaven,
---RICHARDC on 8/20/13


How many people here have actually read ANY of the early Christian writers, generally called the Fathers?
---Cluny on 8/6/13
I think that there are few people in this generation 40 and below who will read the writings of the fathers

Those above sixty, and those who are in seminary may read the writings of the fathers

Today, there are many books written by many contemporary writers who play on the emotions of people, rather that give a healthy discourse in theology

I myself only read the fathers when i was in college, and I read them in part now as i study individual doctrines over time
---francis on 8/20/13


---Trav on 8/20/13
NONSENSE!! since when is Israel considered gentiles?

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past GENTILES in the flesh, who are called UNCIRCUNCISED by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,

You theology has fallen flat on it's uncircumcised head, as it's nakedness is exposed by the true word of God.


---Cluny on 8/19/13
Thank you, I think that this is only reasonable seeing that there are some today who can still make meanngful contriobutions
---francis on 8/20/13


Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,........

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
---francis on 8/19/13

1. Aliens from the "common-wealth" (joint benefits of one family). Israel/Judah a divided house. See Heb 8:8.

2. "Far off". Refer to Eze 11:16 and Micah 4:7 and Dan 9:7.

3. "both one". See Jer 31:31/Heb 8:8. Two as one refer to Eze 37:11 thru 28th verse. Two become one....Again.

All prophecy.....is in regard of/to Israel. One reason that preachers avoid prophets.
---Trav on 8/20/13


Paul was a good Church father:
Good fathers know raising children is more than passing along knowledge.
1 Thess 2:11-12
It's doubtful we would have Pauls epistles if not for his heart as a father.
Paul preaches with desire to produce conviction in unequipped saints (Rom 12:1-2, Rom 14:5, Rom 15:23).
For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established Rom 1:11
Having already preached the gospel to them, Paul isn't silent when the Corinthians were misbehaving
as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:14-15
---michael_e on 8/20/13


\\Explain this part more for me.
I understand it as saying that even those today, can soem day be a church father

is that correct?
---francis on 8/19/13\\

You got it. However, only time will tell.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/13


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Orthodoxy also feels that there is no time limit on the "Age of the Fathers"--or Mothers, for that matter.
---Cluny on 8/19/13
Explain this part more for me.
I understand it as saying that even those today, can soem day be a church father

is that correct?
---francis on 8/19/13


---Trav on 8/18/13

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
---francis on 8/19/13


\\--Cluny I am curious, does the Orthodox Church and the RCC share the same church fathers?
---francis on 8/17/13\\

Some yes, some no.

Even with the shared ones, different ones are looked upon differently in the two churches. E.g., St. Augustine is very authoritative in the West, but not in Orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy also feels that there is no time limit on the "Age of the Fathers"--or Mothers, for that matter.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/19/13


Francis on 8/18/13 -

OLD COVENANT TYPE
Circumcision of the flesh made with human hand,

Deuteronomy 30:6 - And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and thy heart of thy seed, to love thy god with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

NEW COVANT ANITITYPE
circumcise of the heart by God,
---RICHARDC on 8/18/13


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Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR HEARTS, in their minds will I write them,

---francis on 8/18/13

Yourself like most cannot bear to mention the people this is addressed too. For good reasons. We been taught to ignore truth. The danger is self explanatory. There is only one truth.

Our GOD is too Just to not tell the complete truth. Show faith to the wolves. They growl but are naught.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 8/18/13


OLD COVENANT
Exodus 19:8 the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken WE WILL DO (human effort)

NEW COVENANT
Hebrews 10:16 saith the Lord, I WILL PUT my laws into their hearts, and in their minds WILL I WRITE them (God's promise)

OLD COVENANT ALLEGORY
Abraham takes it upon himself and makes Ismael with Hagar

NEW COVENANT ALLEGORY
God gives Abraham Isaac, the son of promise

OLD COVENANT TYPE
Circumcision of the flesh made with human hands

NEW COVENANT ANTITYPE
Circumcision of the heart made by God

God is the one placing His Laws in My heart, and circumcising My heart: So my strength to obey all God's laws comes not from me, but Christ who dwells in me by faith
---francis on 8/18/13


Grace, or law. Pick one (and only one).
---StrongAxe on 8/17/13
If you have to pick one, it means you do not understand the NEW COVENANT

Ephesians 2:8 For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR HEARTS, and in their minds will I write them,

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin (NOT OBEY THE LAW), that grace may abound?

I do not have to choose between not committing adultery, not stealing, not worshippng false gods, honouring my parents, keeping the sabbath, and grace: I can do both
---francis on 8/18/13


StrongAxe on 8/17/13
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man,

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,... that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,

Romans 8:3 ... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


125 word limits it
---francis on 8/18/13


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Axey: "Christians are under a new covenant, and not bound by that same law."

You appear to be ignorant of the very scripture you are using to justify your lawlessness. The term "New Covenant" is mentioned by Paul only in the book of Hebrews, and is a an OT quote from Jeremiah. In that quote, the Bible says:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put MY LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts

There is no scriptural justification for your assertion that a change is made to GOD'S LAW. The only change mentioned is one of location - heart/mind vs. stone. Thus you are adding to scripture.


---jerry6593 on 8/18/13


francis:

show the book chapter and verse where it says no one CAN keep them all

John 7:19:
"... none of you keepeth the law?"

Galatians 2:16:
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, ... by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 3:11:
"...no man is justified by the law..."

Romans 3:20:
"...by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified..."

Galatians 5:4:
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace."

Grace, or law. Pick one (and only one).
---StrongAxe on 8/17/13


--Cluny I am curious, does the Orthodox Church and the RCC share the same church fathers?
---francis on 8/17/13


---StrongAxe on 8/17/13
You must either rephrase that question to read: NOBODY HAS keep all of the law or show the book chapter and verse where it says no one CAN keep them all

If God is the one who writes his laws in my heart, and circumcises my heart, and God is the one who places Christ in my Heart, and God makes my a partaker of His divine
nature, then why can I not keep all the laws?

If Christ is in me, it is no more I but Christ that dwells in my

As a SDA, i have both the form of Godliness and I believe 100% in the power of God to keep me
---francis on 8/17/13


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Isn't it ironic that the people here who condemn the Church fathers the most are those who have not actually read them and have no idea what they have really written?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/17/13


francis:

One of the key doctrines in the New Testament is that NOBODY can keep all of the law - only Jesus could do so. Thus, the law was a burden for the Jews that they were not able to carry.

Christians are under a new covenant, and not bound by that same law. Some traditionalists sought to impose all of the Jewish law on new Christian converts, but Paul quite strongly corrected them, and said that how could they impose a burden on others that they could not keep themselves.
---StrongAxe on 8/17/13


Axster:

"francis and jerry6593:

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear"

Yet you two insist it's necessary to bear this yoke - those who don't do so are not righteous. Thus, you justify yourselves by keeping the law."

Your comments show ignorance of the Scriptures and a malicious spirit false accusation. The discussion in Acts 15 is about circumcision of Gentiles - not the Ten Commandments, as:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.



---jerry6593 on 8/17/13


Did you read what he said about the distinction among bishops, presbyters, and deacons? And about what he said about the Eucharist?

These are more important.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

---Cluny on 8/13/13
No. Which is why I am trying to find the book again. I thought he had a way of escape but choose not to do it. I know I have a few other books in my library from the Early Church Fathers but I am still sorting from when we move in years ago. My wife keeps saying just get rid of them. But that is not my way.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/16/13


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Cluny: "I didn't say this."

You're right. My apologies. I had you confused with someone else.


---jerry6593 on 8/15/13


---StrongAxe on 8/14/13
James is saying here is that we are to keep all ten commandments.

When did God ever place a yoke on Israel? Peter never says that God placed a yoke on them.

and here is the word of God through his prophet:
Malachi 1:2 ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?
Malachi 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

Malachi 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it!

Notice that it is Israel who said that serving God was a weariness a burden, a yoke

God never gives any man a yoke

I am very disappointed to hear that you also think that obedience to God is a yoke
---francis on 8/14/13


francis and jerry6593:

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear"

Yet you two insist it's necessary to bear this yoke - those who don't do so are not righteous. Thus, you justify yourselves by keeping the law.

James 2:10
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

So don't be disappointed in the end if you find yourself condemned because you can only keep 99 44/100% of it.

I rather trust in the covenant of Jesus that leads to forgiveness and life, rather than the covenant of Moses that leads to condemnation and death (see Romans 7).
---StrongAxe on 8/14/13


\\ANd does it means gentile converts are free to do such?
---francis on 8/14/13\\

How about where the Bible forbids wearing blended fabrics or animal (wool) and vegetable (cotton or linen) cloth at the same time?

Are gentiles free to do this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/13


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---StrongAxe on 8/13/13
that is faulty logic
there is a reason why these two were highlighted out of the ditary laws.
Your logic suggests that some of the dietary laws were taught and not others. That is the same flawed logic that allows for 9 out of ten commandments

You are suggesting that all laws that apply to Christains shoudl have been taught in NT wrong!!! they are taught in the SCRIPTURES. The early churches NEVER set aside the " OT" infact that is all they had

So tell me where is this in the NT? Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast

ANd does it means gentile converts are free to do such?
---francis on 8/14/13


\\Cluny: "This is faulty logic,"\\

I didn't say this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/14/13


Cluny: "This is faulty logic,"

NO, faulty logic is saying that a chapter (Acts 15) is about license to eat the abominable when it is about circumcision and even contains a prohibition against some abominable fare. And, as usual, you claim that Christ is glorified by your "freedom" to enjoy what HE has forbidden. What blasphemy!



---jerry6593 on 8/14/13


\\ I only remember disagreeing with one gentlemen who kept trying to get himself martyred.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/13\\

St. Ignatius wasn't trying to get himself martyred. He simply wasn't flinching from it, as his execution had already been determined.

Did you read what he said about the distinction among bishops, presbyters, and deacons? And about what he said about the Eucharist?

These are more important.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/13/13


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jerry6593:

You said: Then why are Kashrut laws against "things strangled and blood" still contained in Acts 15?

This is faulty logic, of exactly the same kind as this faulty sentence:

Jews don't eat pork. Vegans don't eat pork. Therefore, vegans follow Jewish law.

Just because, some of the things forbidden to Christians just happen to have similar components in kashrut in no way implies that Christians are bound by kashrut. Note that when these rules were given to new Christians, the conspicuous absence of commands to avoid pork, shrimp, catfish, and other things forbidden by Jewish dietary laws.
---StrongAxe on 8/13/13


"... religious symbols in Washington dc that were put there by our founding fathers."
shira
Shira, I am sure that you know the Washington Monument is the tallest building in Washington DC.
There is a law that doesn't allow any buildings taller than it.
What most folks don't know is, it is because around the top of the monument is passages from the Word of God.
When the city was being built the fathers said there should be nothing in Washington higher than the Word of God.
---Elder on 8/13/13


I need to find the Ante Nicene book of early church fathers. I need to find it again so I can read it again. I only remember disagreeing with one gentlemen who kept trying to get himself martyred.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/12/13


francis, new covenant believers are not bound by the law.
---Mark_V. on 8/12/13
GARBAGE
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
---francis on 8/12/13


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moderator, look up wall builders. they are established Baptist church in Dallas, texas. He has a series on dvd and he has documented all the religious symbols in Washington dc that were put there by our founding fathers. there are many many. my pastor bought the series and we have been watching them. you would surely love it.
---shira4368 on 8/12/13


Francis, just teasing ya. (I got scales on my feet.)
---Elder on 8/12/13


francis, do you have fins or scales?
---Elder on 8/11/13
mo
---francis on 8/12/13


--Cluny on 8/11/13
first of all kashuroth is not biblical, scriptural or doctrinal, it is cultural Genesis 18:8

Second Acts 15:20 things strangled, and from blood. are both taken from the dietary laws Deuteronomy 14:21 Leviticus 17:12 and commanded to Gentiles

Third I am not responsible for your lack of understanding when the bible uses the phrases " law of God" and "Law of Moses" and makes a distinction

so on all counts here ( not in all things) you are without understanding
---francis on 8/11/13


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francis, do you have fins or scales?
---Elder on 8/11/13


Cluny: "In any case, Acts 15 makes it plain that Gentile [sic] are NOT bound by the OT kashuroth [sic]."

Then why are Kashrut laws against "things strangled and blood" still contained in Acts 15?

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

If you were to check the context of Acts 15, you would learn that it was not about freedom to eat that which is abominable, but rather it was primarily about circumcising Gentiles. You lawless types are always looking for a way to get around God's requirements.



---jerry6593 on 8/12/13


francis, new covenant believers are not bound by the law. Only those not save are bound by the law. Every person who is under the law in bound by infinite obligations to obey it, without the slightest deviation from it throughout the whole existance. But by transgressing it, man has righteously incurred it's penalty and fallen under it curse:
"Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal. 3:10) The curse cannot be removed nor the transgressor released until full satisfaction has been made to it. Such satisfaction the sinner itself is utterly unable to render. "By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom.3:20).
---Mark_V. on 8/12/13


Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
---francis on 8/10/13\\

francis, you have said several times in the past that if something is NOT in the 10 Commandments, then it is not something that God said, and hence commanded. You quote the partial verse "and He said no more" to prove your point, especially when it's something from the OT that you don't want to follow.

Since these dicta are not part of the Decalogue, then according to your OWN exegesis, they are not from God.

In any case, Acts 15 makes it plain that Gentile are NOT bound by the OT kashuroth.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/13


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---StrongAxe on 8/11/13
Matthew 15:20 The idea of eating anything unclean never came up in the entire passage it was always about unwashen hands

Acts 10:28 As peter confirmed, God was telling him not to call any human unclean. Peter never once ate from that sheet, and Peter gave only ONE interpretation

Pay attention to these TWO passages
2 Peter 3:16 which they that are unlearned and unstable ( twist the writings of Paul) and other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
---francis on 8/11/13


francis:

Leviticus 11:4,12: Yes, but what about Jesus saying that it is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, but what comes out of the mouth? And don't forget Acts 10:15 "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

And yes, these are justified - Paul said that when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well (Hebrews 7:12).

Paul spoke at length of those who try to justify themselves by trying to keep all the law of the old covenant - which is useless and impossible. We are NOT under that old covenant of Moses, but under the new covenant of Christ.

Unless you're Jewish - then you can pick whichever one you think fits best.
---StrongAxe on 8/11/13


Axster: "The Bible's standard for truth is one or two witnesses - NOT innuendo and hysterical rhetoric."

The Bible's standard for truth is itself - NOT early church fathers.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You and Cat-man Cluny seem to worship these early apostates more than the God of the Bible. You routinely slander SDA's and Ellen White with your lies, perpetuate the lawlessness and spiritualism of the early apostates, insist that the Genesis account of Creation is wrong, etc.

Francis and I ALWAYS base our arguments on the Bible ONLY - never on the authority of EGW. Yet you insist on the authority of extra-biblical writers, and attack EGW viciously.


---jerry6593 on 8/11/13


---Cluny on 8/10/13
I see you need to see some of the scriptures on which they teach contrary to. No problems

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them

Exodus 20:10 the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Leviticus 11:4 these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof:

Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
---francis on 8/10/13


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jerry6593:

You said: WHO CARES?
If you've read one pagan apostate, you've read them all.


This is jus as valid logically as "Who cares what an SDA says? When you've heard one heretic, you're heard them all" - i.e. it makes totally unwarranted assumptions.

If there are so many heresies from them, it should be easy for you to mention one. If you CAN'T mention even one by name (i.e. what he said and who said it), you don't know what you're talking about.

The Bible's standard for truth is one or two witnesses - NOT innuendo and hysterical rhetoric.
---StrongAxe on 8/10/13


\\If you've read one pagan apostate, you've read them all.
---jerry6593 on 8/10/13\\
\\

Oh, yes, jerry. I forgot. You're QUITE well read in the writings of the peeping and muttering pagan apostate wizadress EGW.

++Look at the RCC, Orthodox, Greek, and the Russian church and you know that they teach contrary to the commandments of God++

So don't confuse francis with facts. His mind is made up.

Blogger9211, it's those nasty Fathers whom some people here so lightly despise who first taught that the same John wrote the Gospel, 3 letters, and Revelation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/10/13


---Cluny on 8/10/13
Look at the RCC, Orthodox, Greek, and the Russian church and you know that they teach contrary to the commandments of God

Bank tellers are not taught to spot a counterfeit bill. They are taught only what the real thing looks like, so what they see any bill that doe snot look like the read thing they know it is counterfeit. They do not read the manual fo how the counterfeit was made
they do not need to, the know what the genuine article looks like.
I do not need to read how the "fathers" came up with their heresy, all i need is this: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---francis on 8/10/13


\\WHO CARES?

If you've read one pagan apostate, you've read them all.



---jerry6593 on 8/10/13\\

In other words, jerry, you have no idea what these writers said.

This is as I suspected. You are merely slandering people.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/10/13


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I recommend you find a good seminary library with a good public access Apostolic Fathers Collection. There used to be a number of seminaries but he number is dwindling restricting access to only students and in some cases alumini. It is important who wrote what Apostle John only wrote the Gospel of John. John the Elder wrote the Letters of John. Revelation was written by an unknown Palastalian author who could not write correct Greek grammar. Martin Luther recognized Revelation for the excrement that it is and refused to include it is German translation of the New Testament. Likewise remember Luke is not a gospel it and Acts are long letters to a Roman magistrate identified as Theophilus and Luke makes many mistakes in events.
---Blogger9211 on 8/10/13


Cluny (or is it Lee's cat?): "francis, tell me EXACTLY what Ss Polycarp, Ignatius, or Athanasius said"

WHO CARES?

If you've read one pagan apostate, you've read them all.



---jerry6593 on 8/10/13


\\Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
---francis on 8/9/13\\

francis, tell me EXACTLY what Ss Polycarp, Ignatius, or Athanasius said, giving appropriate references and citations, that disagree with the Bible.

I shall await with interest.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/13


Was EGW inspired by the Holy Spirit?

If so, why was she inspired by the Holy Spirit and not Ss Polycarp, Ignatius, or Athanasius?
---Cluny on 8/9/13
BECAUSE
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
---francis on 8/9/13


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\\The writers you suggest were not consistent with these, and were certainly not inspired by the Holy Spirit.\\

Was EGW inspired by the Holy Spirit?

If so, why was she inspired by the Holy Spirit and not Ss Polycarp, Ignatius, or Athanasius?

And what exactly did they say that goes against the NT? Please be specific. (Bet you can't!)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/13


Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Paul
Peter
James
Jude

The writers you suggest were not consistent with these, and were certainly not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.




---jerry6593 on 8/7/13

Jerry,

Matthew, Luke, Mark and John wrote that when Jesus said " Take it and eat it" he meant it and all ECF said he did!

BTW Who wrote the gospel of Matthew,Mark and John, please give me the BCV..Thanks
---Ruben on 8/9/13


\\On this issue of the " church fathers" this is what I have to say:\\

IOW, francis, you have no idea what any of them actually said.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/9/13


I have read the ones claimed to be by "Clement", if I remember right. Of course, there is no naming Clement, by whoever wrote these. And it always says things like "we", "us" . . . nowhere "I". And it describes how true leaders are . . . matching, I would say, with 1 Timothy 1:1-10.

Yet, there are certain groups claiming "Clement" as an early leader, but they do not seem to go by these standards in choosing who their leaders will be.
---willie_c: on 8/8/13


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On this issue of the " church fathers" this is what I have to say:

If yo believe that these guys taught the truth, then you should be a member of the RCC, and no other denomination
---francis on 8/8/13


jerry, please take your own advice.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/7/13


//I have read many of them, especially as it relates to their teaching on the 4th commandments and icons
---francis on 8/6/13//

Give a couple of appropriate quotes, with proper attribution, if you will be so kind.

Otherwise, you won't be taken seriously.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/7/13


Cluny:

I would suggest these early Christian writers for you, as you seem unfamiliar with their works:

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Paul
Peter
James
Jude

The writers you suggest were not consistent with these, and were certainly not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.




---jerry6593 on 8/7/13


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Polycarp! Some of his writings can be found on the internet.

He was a friend of the Apostle John.
---trey on 8/7/13


I have read many of them, especially as it relates to their teaching on the 4th commandments and icons
---francis on 8/6/13


Moderator, I would suggest starting with the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, then Against Heresies by St. Irenaues of Lyons, then De Incarnatione (On the Incarnation of the Word of God) by St. Athanasius.

Then go on from there.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/6/13


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